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From 2010 to 2019, only a .6% increase per year, not even keeping up with inflation, and lowest of all specialties.
MGMA paints an even bleaker picture, with a 2010 avg of 515k and a 2021 avg of 505k, with other specialties growing 30-60% over the same time period. Surgical subspecialists and cardiologists have had particularly large increases.
As someone applying to radiology soon, this trend is really concerning to me. By the time I hopefully make partner, Radiology will likely be outpaced by most existing specialties 🙁
Is there any chance of this reversing? Would you all still recommend radiology as a field?
Because both jobs are awesome.Very unfortunate, rads and ophtho seem to be the most targeted of anyone. Very unfortunate and a little confusing why these fields are some of the fastest rising in terms of competitiveness. Particularly radiology was #1 in %increase applications this past cycle
good lifestyle? Govt and big ins has made it a mission to make even ROAD specialities as burnt out and as miserable as primary care!!Because both jobs are awesome.
Just wait until we start getting slapped around like Path.
Where did you find the stats in competitiveness this year?Very unfortunate, rads and ophtho seem to be the most targeted of anyone. A little confusing why these fields are some of the fastest rising in terms of competitiveness. Particularly radiology was #1 in %increase applications this past cycle
I though the path job market is pretty good. I am married to a pathPathologist here. Cmon you guys are complaining about growth in 500k salaries? We are complaining about getting jobs lol.
Yes I was joking. Better now than years past but regionally some tight job markets still near larger cities. I know because I’m looking for a new job near a large city.I though the path job market is pretty good. I am married to a path
I'm sure heme/onc was flying under the radar and up higher as well.Interesting. Based on a 2020 study with 2018 data, Radiologists are not even in the top 20 for gross income in the nation. They are #23. IC was #8 and EP was #11.
From 2010 to 2019, only a .6% increase per year, not even keeping up with inflation, and lowest of all specialties.
MGMA paints an even bleaker picture, with a 2010 avg of 515k and a 2021 avg of 505k, with other specialties growing 30-60% over the same time period. Surgical subspecialists and cardiologists have had particularly large increases.
As someone applying to radiology soon, this trend is really concerning to me. By the time I hopefully make partner, Radiology will likely be outpaced by most existing specialties 🙁
Is there any chance of this reversing? Would you all still recommend radiology as a field?
Because both jobs are awesome.
Just wait until we start getting slapped around like Path.
I'm a bit confused by the overall question you're asking. You should go into the field of medicine you enjoy and can see yourself doing every day for 40-50 years. It doesn't seem like you're truly interested in radiology if you're splitting hairs over inflation rate and general salary trends, and that's perfectly ok. If salary is a top priority I'd recommend pursuing plastics or ortho (or could also go a different direction and join a PE or VC firm...I think their bottom lines are pretty good). On top of that, how much money is enough? Will making 525k/year vs 560k/year significantly alter your quality of life and economic freedom? Probably not, but if you really need that 3rd jetski then maybe it will? I promise I'm not trying to dissuade you from applying Rads. It's by far the best specialty (along with IR) and I don't think you'd regret the decision. But if you're actually applying to radiology soon as you stated and these are major concerns, I'd recommend considering an alternate path.....one last thing I'll mention is that these trends in salary can change drastically in the course of a few years. Take a look at EM. 10-12 years ago it was the fastest growing specialty and attendings were getting incredible per hour compensation (typically 10-12 8-hr shifts/month, 350-440k), and now EM residencies can't fill half of their spots bc PAs/NPs are replacing them and demand a 1/3 the salary. Anyways, sorry for the rant, just my two cents.From 2010 to 2019, only a .6% increase per year, not even keeping up with inflation, and lowest of all specialties.
MGMA paints an even bleaker picture, with a 2010 avg of 515k and a 2021 avg of 505k, with other specialties growing 30-60% over the same time period. Surgical subspecialists and cardiologists have had particularly large increases.
As someone applying to radiology soon, this trend is really concerning to me. By the time I hopefully make partner, Radiology will likely be outpaced by most existing specialties 🙁
Is there any chance of this reversing? Would you all still recommend radiology as a field?
Medicare certainly has been a negative headwind but there are positive headwinds as well that have materialized post-pandemic. Hospital stipends are being more and more common. Traditionally radiology services cost the hospital nothing and we billed our own professional fees. These days we're getting negotiated stipends for call, IR coverage, unprofitable subspeciality coverage (e.g. pediatrics) etc. to sweeten the pot. This isn't RVU based compensation but can substantially add to your practice's bottom line in the era of rad shortages and high hospital demand.This was before the 3% cut coming this year and 1% cut coming next year.
That said, the explosion in acceptance of working from home for radiologists since Covid has completely changed the game
The specialty will remain amongst the most competitive for that reason alone, regardless of pay and volumes
Medicare certainly has been a negative headwind but there are positive headwinds as well that have materialized post-pandemic. Hospital stipends are being more and more common. Traditionally radiology services cost the hospital nothing and we billed our own professional fees. These days we're getting negotiated stipends for call, IR coverage, unprofitable subspeciality coverage (e.g. pediatrics) etc. to sweeten the pot. This isn't RVU based compensation but can substantially add to your practice's bottom line in the era of rad shortages and high hospital demand.
I personally would not choose to go into radiology at this point. I work two jobs, and I do make a lot of money, but that is mainly because I work all the time. I work one job for an HMO and the other is for a night hawk position. At my primary job, we have barely had a raise in the past 10 years. I mean like 4-5 percent over 10 years. Absolutely terrible. I live on the west coast, where housing prices are insane since the Fed decided to stimulate the housing market, and a salary of 500K really does not go so far. I have been able to make about 1.3 million for the past several years, but that is because I am constantly working, not increasing salaries. The gov wants to keep our income down and promote FP. It seems that the HMO is following their lead, and doing the same thing. Our income is based on mgma, but even when there is an increase in mgma, it seems that our salary is basically the same. Can you imagine a hospital administrator or even a nurse not getting a raise in 10 years, with the way inflation has been going? I am quite sure all hospital administrators and executives have received reasonable raises in the past decade. Somehow for radiology such stagnant wages are acceptable. With the progression of AI, I would image there will not even be much demand for radiologists 20 years from now. With AI, the increased efficiency will allow 1 rad to do the job of 10 radiologists.From 2010 to 2019, only a .6% increase per year, not even keeping up with inflation, and lowest of all specialties.
MGMA paints an even bleaker picture, with a 2010 avg of 515k and a 2021 avg of 505k, with other specialties growing 30-60% over the same time period. Surgical subspecialists and cardiologists have had particularly large increases.
As someone applying to radiology soon, this trend is really concerning to me. By the time I hopefully make partner, Radiology will likely be outpaced by most existing specialties 🙁
Is there any chance of this reversing? Would you all still recommend radiology as a field?
1.3 million per year?I personally would not choose to go into radiology at this point. I work two jobs, and I do make a lot of money, but that is mainly because I work all the time. I work on job for Kaiser and the other is for a night hawk position. At my primary job, we have barely had a raise in the past 10 years. I mean like 4-5 percent over 10 years. Absolutely terrible. I live on the west coast, where housing prices are insane since the Fed decided to stimulate the housing market, and a salary of 500K really does not go so far. I have been able to make about 1.3 million for the past several years, but that is because I am constantly working, not increasing salaries. The gov wants to keep our income down and promote FP. It seems that Kaiser is following their lead, and doing the same thing. Our income is based on mgma, but even when there is an increase in mgma, it seems that our salary is basically the same. Can you imagine a hospital administrator or even a nurse not getting a raise in 10 years, with the way inflation has been going? I am quite sure all hospital administrator and executives have received reasonable raises in the past decade. Somehow for radiology such stagnant wages are acceptable. With the progression of AI, I would image there will not even be much demand for radiologists 20 years from now. With AI, the increased efficiency will allow 1 rad to do the job of 10 radiologists.
Might as well just give up on rads and be a Peds NP at that pointOnly making half a million dollars per year sounds pretty bleak.
500K on the coasts as a W2 is a joke. Really a no man’s land.Only making half a million dollars per year sounds pretty bleak.
500K is nothing on the west coast. Housing prices have basically tripled in my community in the past 10 years. Inflation has been very high, and we almost make the same wage as we did 10 years ago. The only real difference is that our RVU quota has increased by 30-35%, for the same 500K. Once AI becomes more prevalent in the industry, it will be even worse, because there will be more rads than the market needs. They really should be shutting programs down with the anticipation of AI taking over portions of the market. I worked on a research study with one of the companies developing AI for radiology and their programs are really quite good. In the next 10-20 years, there will be a dramatic shift to AI in radiology.500K on the coasts as a W2 is a joke. Really a no man’s land.
You’re really not rich enough to enjoy what coastal places have to offer but just poor enough where you’ll be on the hamster wheel feeding the delusion that someday you will be.
yes, that is correct.1.3 million per year?
The point is not the absolute value, it's that MGMA had a median of 520k in 2010 and it is the same now. What other career has not had a pay increase in the last 13 years? Even most other medical specialties have had reasonable growth to keep up with inflation.Only making half a million dollars per year sounds pretty bleak.
The point is not the absolute value, it's that MGMA had a median of 520k in 2010 and it is the same now. What other career has not had a pay increase in the last 13 years? Even most other medical specialties have had reasonable growth to keep up with inflation.
Unless you think radiologists are worth 33% less now there's no reason it should not have kept up with inflation
If you have specific specialties you want to ask about I can provide the data...but radiology actually is worse off than most others. In 2010 it was in the same tier as ortho and interventional cards (Diagnostic radiology-515k, general ortho- 525k, interventional cards- 535k), the latter 2 are now around 700k+ per MGMA. Pick any career field and do some digging on the average compensation in 2010 vs now, you won't find a single one that has been absolutely stagnant. Radiology still makes a lot and is a great field, but it used to be among the best in terms of earning potential (which explains why it was insanely competitive in the early 2000's).I wonder how the MGMA data for other specialties looks like. I would venture to guess that many are in a similar situation as our field-medicare comp for physicians, adjusted for inflation is down 22% from 2001. I think many fields outside of medicine have also not kept up with inflation.
As others have mentioned hospital subsidies/incentive bonuses are becoming more frequent which should help offset diminishing reimbursements,
If you have specific specialties you want to ask about I can provide the data...but radiology actually is worse off than most others. In 2010 it was in the same tier as ortho and interventional cards (Diagnostic radiology-515k, general ortho- 525k, interventional cards- 535k), the latter 2 are now around 700k+ per MGMA. Pick any career field and do some digging on the average compensation in 2010 vs now, you won't find a single one that has been absolutely stagnant. Radiology still makes a lot and is a great field, but it used to be among the best in terms of earning potential (which explains why it was insanely competitive in the early 2000's).
Hopefully the subsidies do help offset in future years.
Valid argument, unfortunately I don't have MGMA that far back haha, I'll do some digging and see what I can come up withYou can not choose two time points in a graph and compare things side by side.
It is a graph that you have too look at the whole trend. For example I am curious to know if you compare 2006 to 2023 what will be the results?
There is a possibility that 2010 was an outlier for radiology. Just saying.
After 10 years of practice and especially saving some money, you won't care. Believe me that you won't care about 100K less or more.
Lifestyle, hours of working and your health will be your number one priority by a huge margin after age of 45.
Unless you want to live a luxury lifestyle, with the current level of salaries, if you don't do something crazy, you will be able to live a comfortable life and then go part time after 15 years of working.
I am not saying other fields are not great. But if you are debating between radiology and Orthopedic surgery just because of difference in compensation, you are doing something very wrong.
If you have specific specialties you want to ask about I can provide the data...but radiology actually is worse off than most others. In 2010 it was in the same tier as ortho and interventional cards (Diagnostic radiology-515k, general ortho- 525k, interventional cards- 535k), the latter 2 are now around 700k+ per MGMA. Pick any career field and do some digging on the average compensation in 2010 vs now, you won't find a single one that has been absolutely stagnant. Radiology still makes a lot and is a great field, but it used to be among the best in terms of earning potential (which explains why it was insanely competitive in the early 2000's).
Hopefully the subsidies do help offset in future years.
Starting salaries for Rads are about what they were 10 years ago too. And larger imaging volumes.
I need to see more evidence that overutilization of imaging is the major driving force for CMS cuts.
People doing multiple exams at the same time led to combining CT abdomen and pelvis codes. That was a big one time hit in the late 2000s. It hasn't happened to other exams yet (eg, CTA head and neck).
CMS cuts reimbursements based on the RUC re-valuing codes periodically, but this is not informed by the utilization. It is informed by things like time, materials, risk, expertise. When radiologists as a whole read a certain exam faster than before then it gets cut in reimbursement.
Most recently, CMS cut the RVU to dollar conversion factor because it upped the RVUs for E&M codes and needed to remain overall budget neutral. It hurt radiology and other procedural specialties in order to benefit clinic-based specialties.
I need to see more evidence that overutilization of imaging is the major driving force for CMS cuts.
People doing multiple exams at the same time led to combining CT abdomen and pelvis codes. That was a big one time hit in the late 2000s. It hasn't happened to other exams yet (eg, CTA head and neck).
CMS cuts reimbursements based on the RUC re-valuing codes periodically, but this is not informed by the utilization. It is informed by things like time, materials, risk, expertise. When radiologists as a whole read a certain exam faster than before then it gets cut in reimbursement.
Most recently, CMS cut the RVU to dollar conversion factor because it upped the RVUs for E&M codes and needed to remain overall budget neutral. It hurt radiology and other procedural specialties in order to benefit clinic-based specialties.
How much of a jump in expected volume for an average day has occurred in 10 years ? 20, 30, 40 percent?
Wow. If that is indeed true i am not sure how the increase in volume will be handled. Surely, you cant be reading 50% more in the 2030s vs today. Are they going to create more midlevels specific to certain types of imaging only supervised by a rad sign off???... Will CMS cut rates over that time that rad docs will be pressured to read that much more just to maintain current income levels?This was posted by someone from a radiology practice consulting firm on AM. Cannot vouch for its precise accuracy but feels right.
"The current number of clinically practicing radiologists is somewhere around 33,000 nationwide. The educational system is producing an average of 1,200 new providers every year. My latest estimate is there are still 8,000+ radiologists past retirement age still working. So how does the industry with an aging workforce and a static supply of new providers handle an average 6% increase in volume?"
Why do you think heme/onc was flying under the radar?I'm sure heme/onc was flying under the radar and up higher as well.
With AI, in the coming 1-2 decades there will be one radiologist doing the work that 10 radiologists did in the past. Compensation will continue to decrease per rvu, since the government and HMOs want us to work for near nothing. In the short term, income may increase for a short period of time since we are doing more work, but in the long term most of us will be out of work. This is the same trend that has happened in the past 15 years. In my group, we do 35% more work than 10 years ago, and get paid about 6% more. It is an ok job for the moment, not long term.This was posted by someone from a radiology practice consulting firm on AM. Cannot vouch for its precise accuracy but feels right.
"The current number of clinically practicing radiologists is somewhere around 33,000 nationwide. The educational system is producing an average of 1,200 new providers every year. My latest estimate is there are still 8,000+ radiologists past retirement age still working. So how does the industry with an aging workforce and a static supply of new providers handle an average 6% increase in volume?"
I work part time for one of the telerad companies. They are so busy and compensation has decreased so much, it seems like CT A/P and MR knees are treated like plain films were years ago. They expect us to read so much volume, it is overwhelming.With AI, in the coming 1-2 decades there will be one radiologist doing the work that 10 radiologists did in the past. Compensation will continue to decrease per rvu, since the government and HMOs want us to work for near nothing. In the short term, income may increase for a short period of time since we are doing more work, but in the long term most of us will be out of work. This is the same trend that has happened in the past 15 years. In my group, we do 35% more work than 10 years ago, and get paid about 6% more. It is an ok job for the moment, not long term.
No they won’t.With AI, in the coming 1-2 decades there will be one radiologist doing the work that 10 radiologists did in the past.
Don't do anything for the money. Do what you enjoy and the money will follow.
My W2 income from my single radiology job for 2023? $1.1M. I hustle though but still work way fewer hours than a neurosurgeon.