2.7 Undergrad / 3.8 Post-Bacc

[2.7GPA]

I'm 29 self-employed in finance and considering changing to pursue a career in medicine.

I graduated in 2013 after having no direction in school with a BA in underwater basket-weaving. In 2014/2015, I decided to pursue a post-bacc and completed BIO/Micro/Chem/Psych with a 3.87 GPA, but stopped before Orgo and Physics because student loans were coming due and I ran out of funds for school. Fast-forward 5 years, I got involved in a career in finance and did well enough to clear loans and feel that now is a good time to go back to school because (1) my field in finance is currently facing a major breakdown, and (2) it's something I am truly passionate for, rather than emotionless numbers as I currently work.

From the template post:

1. cGPA -- 2.85; sGPA -- 3.75, uncertain -- Several of the main science courses were retakes during my post-bacc so I would look much better
2. MCAT score(s) and breakdown -- Have not taken
3. State of residence or country of citizenship - US, NY
4. Ethnicity and/or race -- White male
5. Undergraduate institution or category -- Stony Brook University
6. Clinical experience (volunteer and non-volunteer) -- 100+ hours from 2015, nothing more recent
7. Research experience and productivity -- Participated in an internship mapping joint motion using 3D software
8. Shadowing experience and specialties represented -- None recent, previously was an EMT-B in 2009
9. Non-clinical volunteering -- Went to Honduras to help build orphanage in 2013, more voluntourism than anything
10. Other extracurricular activities -- Men's Rugby and skiing club in 2014/2015. Currently own a financial brokerage and manage a team of 4.
11. Relevant honors or awards -- Nothing notable

Being that my undergrad was a mess, and courses are combined despite the positive trend in my post-bacc, is it worth it at this point time-wise and with my past performance to pursue this?

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[2.7GPA]

Going to need to get your cumulative to at least above 3.0 to get past screens. Come back when you have an MCAT score. Would you consider DO?

Yes, I don't see why not if it would benefit my position at being accepted. I'm not sure if that would limit specialization opportunities though. Do DO schools also require 3.0 cumulative or look more at positive trend?

 

[GreenDuck12]

Depends on what your goals are and how much time you want to invest before starting medical school and residency. First, you're going to have to decide if you want to be a doctor by earning an MD or DO degree. As you know, MD is going to be a heavier lift due to the intense competition. DO would be more manageable but still quite competitive. If you're open to DO programs, you need to get your GPA up above a 3.0, perform well on the MCAT, and apply broadly. If you only want to pursue MD, you need to get your cGPA up above a 3.0, perform extremely well on the MCAT (think 90th percentile) and then pursue an SMP. Even then, an MD admission wouldn't be a sure thing. Either option is going to require at least 1-2 years of classes before being able to apply to medical school. You're also going to need to start volunteering in clinical and non clinical settings and shadowing physicians to round out your application.

You could start to take classes at night while keeping your day job in finance. You likely would need to take at least 2 classes per semester but 3 would be better to show you can handle the rigors of medical school.

 

[2.7GPA]

Depends on what your goals are and how much time you want to invest before starting medical school and residency. First, you're going to have to decide if you want to be a doctor by earning an MD or DO degree. As you know, MD is going to be a heavier lift due to the intense competition. DO would be more manageable but still quite competitive. If you're open to DO programs, you need to get your GPA up above a 3.0, perform well on the MCAT, and apply broadly. If you only want to pursue MD, you need to get your cGPA up above a 3.0, perform extremely well on the MCAT (think 90th percentile) and then pursue an SMP. Even then, an MD admission wouldn't be a sure thing. Either option is going to require at least 1-2 years of classes before being able to apply to medical school. You're also going to need to start volunteering in clinical and non clinical settings and shadowing physicians to round out your application.

You could start to take classes at night while keeping your day job in finance. You likely would need to take at least 2 classes per semester but 3 would be better to show you can handle the rigors of medical school.

I would be open to DO as long as it doesn't dramatically reduce my chances at specializing. When you say getting my GPA above 3.0, I have 180+ credits of courses that come out to around 2.85 cumulative, though my last 20-30 have only been 3.5+
What is an SMP? I haven't encountered the term before since I'm new to the process.

 

[wysdoc]

Going to need to get your cumulative to at least above 3.0 to get past screens. Come back when you have an MCAT score. Would you consider DO?

@2.7GPA It might be statistically improbable to get your cumulative GPA above 3.0.
But Goro says it's not essential, just to show that you are now a capable student.
Have a browse through his advice for re-inventors: Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

 

[GreenDuck12]

I would be open to DO as long as it doesn't dramatically reduce my chances at specializing. When you say getting my GPA above 3.0, I have 180+ credits of courses that come out to around 2.85 cumulative, though my last 20-30 have only been 3.5+
What is an SMP? I haven't encountered the term before since I'm new to the process.

Your cGPA and sGPA needs to calculate out to above a 3.0. If it is below a 3.0 you run the risk of being auto screened out before any eyes look at your application. An upward trend only helps once a person is evaluating your transcripts. You likely are going to need between 5-9 classes to get your GPA up above that minimum. The good news is you have 5 classes left to complete your prerequisites anyway (2 x physics, 2 x Orgo, 1 x biochemistry).

An SMP stands for special masters program. These are masters programs that mimic the first year or two years of medical school. Essentially, these programs serve as auditions for medical school to give their matriculants the opportunity to demonstrate that they can handle the rigors of medical school. This helps ease some of the concerns an admissions committee might have about an applicants fitness due to low GPA and/or MCAT score. These programs are expensive. The best ones are attached to medical schools after offer guaranteed interviews to students that do well. These programs are also a double edged sword - if you do not perform well, it likely will sink your chances of becoming a doctor.

 

[2.7GPA]

@2.7GPA It might be statistically improbable to get your cumulative GPA above 3.0.
But Goro says it's not essential, just to show that you are now a capable student.
Have a browse through his advice for re-inventors: Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

Thank you, will have a look through. Getting to 3.0 cumulative is a major concern. The commentor above, @GreenDuck12, does bring up a valid point that the 5 courses remaining are a good possibility to boost this, which would really be the make-or-break courses.

 

[2.7GPA]

Your cGPA and sGPA needs to calculate out to above a 3.0. If it is below a 3.0 you run the risk of being auto screened out before any eyes look at your application. An upward trend only helps once a person is evaluating your transcripts. You likely are going to need between 5-9 classes to get your GPA up above that minimum. The good news is you have 5 classes left to complete your prerequisites anyway (2 x physics, 2 x Orgo, 1 x biochemistry).

An SMP stands for special masters program. These are masters programs that mimic the first year or two years of medical school. Essentially, these programs serve as auditions for medical school to give their matriculants the opportunity to demonstrate that they can handle the rigors of medical school. This helps ease some of the concerns an admissions committee might have about an applicants fitness due to low GPA and/or MCAT score. These programs are expensive. The best ones are attached to medical schools after offer guaranteed interviews to students that do well. These programs are also a double edged sword - if you do not perform well, it likely will sink your chances of becoming a doctor.

If I were to take the SMP route, do these programs then shave off the initial years of medical school? Or you just finish with a separate, distinct master's degree?

 

[GreenDuck12]

Thank you, will have a look through. Getting to 3.0 cumulative is a major concern. The commentor above, @GreenDuck12, does bring up a valid point that the 5 courses remaining are a good possibility to boost this, which would really be the make-or-break courses.

I just did some quick math. Assuming all 180 credits were graded and your cGPA currently is a 2.85, after 5 x 4 credit classes at an A, your cGPA would be a 2.965. It would take 28 credits or 7 classes to cross the 3.0 threshold.

 

[GreenDuck12]

If I were to take the SMP route, do these programs then shave off the initial years of medical school? Or you just finish with a separate, distinct master's degree?

They do not shave off the initial years of medical school - should you matriculate to a medical school you would then complete all years of the program.

 

[2.7GPA]

I just did some quick math. Assuming all 180 credits were graded and your cGPA currently is a 2.85, after 5 x 4 credit classes at an A, your cGPA would be a 2.965. It would take 28 credits or 7 classes to cross the 3.0 threshold.

Just ran the numbers while you were looking at it, too. My undergrad is a 2.69 with 154 attempted credits / 146 GPA units. My post-bacc is 3.73 with 25 credits. This gives me a cGPA of 2.83 so I would need 4.0 in potentially 7 or 8 courses.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Just ran the numbers while you were looking at it, too. My undergrad is a 2.69 with 154 attempted credits / 146 GPA units. My post-bacc is 3.73 with 25 credits. This gives me a cGPA of 2.83 so I would need 4.0 in potentially 7 or 8 courses.

That's not bad. Two years of two classes per semester without summers or two semesters of three classes with a summer semester of one or two. Honestly, with most classes being online this year, you have a good shot at getting your classes completed in the next 13 months. You could then spend the next 5 months studying for the MCAT. Assuming it goes well, you would be ready to apply in June 2022 and start medical school in 2023. Starting 2024 might be more realistic/conservative but it is possible.

 

[2.7GPA]

That's not bad. Two years of two classes per semester without summers or two semesters of three classes with a summer semester of one or two. Honestly, with most classes being online this year, you have a good shot at getting your classes completed in the next 13 months. You could then spend the next 5 months studying for the MCAT. Assuming it goes well, you would be ready to apply in June 2022 and start medical school in 2023. Starting 2024 might be more realistic/conservative but it is possible.

Is it possible to complete the MCAT while still taking the courses?

 

[GreenDuck12]

Is it possible to complete the MCAT while still taking the courses?

That depends on you. I generally don't advise my students to study for the MCAT while taking classes unless it is a ridiculously light course load. If you are working and taking classes I would highly advise against it. Some folks do study for the MCAT while taking classes and are able to pull it off but a low score on the MCAT significantly weakens one's application. I studied for the MCAT while working full-time and it was rough.

 

[2.7GPA]

That depends on you. I generally don't advise my students to study for the MCAT while taking classes unless it is a ridiculously light course load. If you are working and taking classes I would highly advise against it. Some folks do study for the MCAT while taking classes and are able to pull it off but a low score on the MCAT significantly weakens one's application. I studied for the MCAT while working full-time and it was rough.

How does the MCAT cycle run? If you have a low score on a first attempt, does a second attempt negate the first, or they're averaged?

 

[Gambino.]

How does the MCAT cycle run? If you have a low score on a first attempt, does a second attempt negate the first, or they're averaged?

Schools will look at both. You'd want an upward trend if you have to take it twice.

 

[GreenDuck12]

How does the MCAT cycle run? If you have a low score on a first attempt, does a second attempt negate the first, or they're averaged?

Schools have a lot of leeway in how they interpret multiple MCAT scores. Needless to say it is an exam you only want to take once. For multiple scores, the AAMC recommends that school average the two scores together. Some schools state that they only evaluate the first score, others state that they more heavily emphasize the most recent score, some average the two. Unfortunately, improvement on a retake isn't sufficient. A second score needs to be significantly higher (4 or 5+ points) because there is an expectation that any subsequent score is higher. The AAMC publishes data on second MCAT attempts. For most test takers, they see only marginal increases/decreases or the same score. Very few score more than 2+ points.

 

[2.7GPA]

Schools have a lot of leeway in how they interpret multiple MCAT scores. Needless to say it is an exam you only want to take once. For multiple scores, the AAMC recommends that school average the two scores together. Some schools state that they only evaluate the first score, others state that they more heavily emphasize the most recent score, some average the two. Unfortunately, improvement on a retake isn't sufficient. A second score needs to be significantly higher (4 or 5+ points) because there is an expectation that any subsequent score is higher. The AAMC publishes data on second MCAT attempts. For most test takers, they see only marginal increases/decreases or the same score. Very few score more than 2+ points.

How long does is a general "cycle" when people are talking about applications? Is there an opportunity to apply multiple times if you're rejected from the first group in the same year?

Also, if the MCAT is taken a second time, is it possible to do so within the same period before the first application pool? With the understanding that any application more than the first is bad.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Application cycle begins in May when the AAMC opens AMCAS the application platform. The cycle runs through matriculation at medical schools sometime in July/August. Your are only able to submit one primary application per cycle. In that primary application you select which medical schools you want to apply to. Note that Texas has a separate analogous system as do Osteopathic schools. If you are rejected sometime during the cycle you will not be considered further that cycle and would need to reapply in the future.

The AAMC sets limits on the number of MCAT attempts someone can have per year, per two year period, and over the course of the applicants life. You can take the MCAT multiple times per year. Say someone took the MCAT in January and wanted to retake it in June. You could also note on your application that you are planning to take the MCAT at a future date and hope that schools wait for the new score. Generally that option isn’t advisable. The most conservative option is to take the MCAT once before the start of the application cycle to ensure you know your GPA and MCAT so that you can properly target schools that you want to apply to.

 

[2.7GPA]

Application cycle begins in May when the AAMC opens AMCAS the application platform. The cycle runs through matriculation at medical schools sometime in July/August. Your are only able to submit one primary application per cycle. In that primary application you select which medical schools you want to apply to. Note that Texas has a separate analogous system as do Osteopathic schools. If you are rejected sometime during the cycle you will not be considered further that cycle and would need to reapply in the future.

Thanks for this. So when some people mention having gone through 2-3 cycles, that means that they have applied for 2-3 consecutive years before having been accepted?

 

[GreenDuck12]

Thanks for this. So when some people mention having gone through 2-3 cycles, that means that they have applied for 2-3 consecutive years before having been accepted?

generally yes. Some folks might apply one year, and then take a year or two to improve their application or pursue something else before applying to medical school again

 

[candbgirl]

OP you really seem to not know much about this whole process. While it is just fine to ask questions it might be good to spend time reading up on everything. We can’t know what you don’t know and you can’t ask what you have no idea about. It would be a shame for you to attempt to go through a cycle and screw up something because you were unaware of a particular thing. Read @Goro’s Guide to Reinvention(search this forum for that). Read AMCAS pages. I think there is even a guide to applying. Then when you have stuff in your mind come ask questions. People are happy to help out. You have lots of work to do. Don’t take the MCAT until you finish all of your science prereqs. Take your time with the whole process. You only want to do it once. Everyone always says have a plan B if med school doesn’t work out. Good luck as you move forward.

 

[candbgirl]

Thanks for this. So when some people mention having gone through 2-3 cycles, that means that they have applied for 2-3 consecutive years before having been accepted?

One thing to remember is that about 60 percent of all applicants each cycle are rejected. This means only around 40 percent are accepted. Of that 40% around 20%are accepted at one school and 20% are accepted at 2 or more schools. Applicants with stellar applications are rejected each cycle.

 

[2.7GPA]

generally yes. Some folks might apply one year, and then take a year or two to improve their application or pursue something else before applying to medical school again

If I were to pursue DO rather than MD based on my past performance and potential MCAT, would this limit the potential specializations that I can try to match in the future?

 

[GreenDuck12]

The DO degree doesn’t inherently limit which specialties you can pursue. That being said, it is more challenging to match into competitive specialties from DO programs. You will find that DOs do match to competitive specialties but that it is a bit more challenging. With changes to Step 1 going p/f in 2022, there is some concern that it will make it harder for DOs to match. Program directors on SDN have reported that the emphasis that was placed on step 1 will transition to step 2. To be sure, most DOs end up in primary care fields and a high percentage of MDs do as well. The general advice for any medical applicant is if they do not see themselves being happy in primary care they should not pursue medicine as there is a likelihood that it will be anyone’s career path.

 

[2.7GPA]

The DO degree doesn’t inherently limit which specialties you can pursue. That being said, it is more challenging to match into competitive specialties from DO programs. You will find that DOs do match to competitive specialties but that it is a bit more challenging. With changes to Step 1 going p/f in 2022, there is some concern that it will make it harder for DOs to match. Program directors on SDN have reported that the emphasis that was placed on step 1 will transition to step 2. To be sure, most DOs end up in primary care fields and a high percentage of MDs do as well. The general advice for any medical applicant is if they do not see themselves being happy in primary care they should not pursue medicine as there is a likelihood that it will be anyone’s career path.

One more question here that I hadn't gone into detail in my initial post.
My undergrad was very poor as 2.69. I graduated in 2013 and began a pre-health post-bacc but stopped midway through due to finances and began working professionally. Would resuming this at a new university (due to having moved) and no longer being in the official post-bacc program but rather doing it as a DIY through completion (orgo, physics, biochem) have a major negative impact compared to having just completed it in its entirety the first through?

 

[2.7GPA]

OP you really seem to not know much about this whole process. While it is just fine to ask questions it might be good to spend time reading up on everything. We can’t know what you don’t know and you can’t ask what you have no idea about. It would be a shame for you to attempt to go through a cycle and screw up something because you were unaware of a particular thing. Read @Goro’s Guide to Reinvention(search this forum for that). Read AMCAS pages. I think there is even a guide to applying. Then when you have stuff in your mind come ask questions. People are happy to help out. You have lots of work to do. Don’t take the MCAT until you finish all of your science prereqs. Take your time with the whole process. You only want to do it once. Everyone always says have a plan B if med school doesn’t work out. Good luck as you move forward.

I know very little about the process but just wanted to address a few of the more blatant concerns that I had before going further into the process. Truthfully, with my prior academic performance, I feel that I am nowhere near qualified to be looking into a career change into this path. I do plan on researching more but believe I may be attempting to pursue something far outside my research due to my past.

 

[MyOdyssey]

If I were to pursue DO rather than MD based on my past performance and potential MCAT, would this limit the potential specializations that I can try to match in the future?

Have you considered becoming a podiatrist (basically a foot and ankle specialist)? GPA and MCAT still apply but podiatry programs are less competitive than DO or MD programs.

 

[GreenDuck12]

One more question here that I hadn't gone into detail in my initial post.
My undergrad was very poor as 2.69. I graduated in 2013 and began a pre-health post-bacc but stopped midway through due to finances and began working professionally. Would resuming this at a new university (due to having moved) and no longer being in the official post-bacc program but rather doing it as a DIY through completion (orgo, physics, biochem) have a major negative impact compared to having just completed it in its entirety the first through?

Life happens, I don’t think stopping your postbac and restarting it will have a significant impact on your application. Adcoms understand that finances are a concern and folks have to work. The important thing is that you complete the classes and do well. If you are asked why you didn’t finish when you initially started you will be able to explain why you stopped.

 

[2.7GPA]

Have you considered becoming a podiatrist (basically a foot and ankle specialist)? GPA and MCAT still apply but podiatry programs are less competitive than DO or MD programs.

I hadn't looked into this as an option. I know Optometry is potentially also an option but not sure what the requirements for it are. I'm relatively new to the process and wanted to really address the largest concerns upfront.

 

[2.7GPA]

Life happens, I don’t think stopping your postbac and restarting it will have a significant impact on your application. Adcoms understand that finances are a concern and folks have to work. The important thing is that you complete the classes and do well. If you are asked why you didn’t finish when you initially started you will be able to explain why you stopped.

I believe, with my professional background and achievements outside of academia, I'd be able to do well in an interview. Unfortunately, it's everything outside of that (i.e. everything) that will make this more of an uphill battle. Thank you for all the responses and I hope you don't mind if I send a message at some point with more questions as they arise.

 

[candbgirl]

Life happens, I don’t think stopping your postbac and restarting it will have a significant impact on your application. Adcoms understand that finances are a concern and folks have to work. The important thing is that you complete the classes and do well. If you are asked why you didn’t finish when you initially started you will be able to explain why you stopped.

But each school has time limits on the age of the courses Some don’t care, some are within 5 or some 10 years. It’s up to the applicant to find out what specific schools require.

 

[GreenDuck12]

But each school has time limits on the age of the courses Some don’t care, some are within 5 or some 10 years. It’s up to the applicant to find out what specific schools require.

Very true and this is a good point. OP still has at least 5 courses to take as part of their postbac so I think they would be able to get around this at many programs with recent coursework.

 

[2.7GPA]

Very true and this is a good point. OP still has at least 5 courses to take as part of their postbac so I think they would be able to get around this at many programs with recent coursework.

How would this work if my lower-tier courses were beyond 5 years but upper-tier were recent? As in BIO and intro chem being outside of that period but biochem and orgo within the last year? Assuming the school's cutoff is 5 years' expiration.

 

[GreenDuck12]

How would this work if my lower-tier courses were beyond 5 years but upper-tier were recent? As in BIO and intro chem being outside of that period but biochem and orgo within the last year? Assuming the school's cutoff is 5 years' expiration.

Depends on the school. Some schools require that all prereqs are done in the last 5 years (very few). Some specify last 5-10 years. Many schools that have prereq timeline requirements will accept more recent science based coursework at the undergraduate level or recent employment in the field in lieu of repeating all prereq classes. Your going to need to spend some time looking at the admissions websites of schools that you are interested in. DO programs tend to be more flexible regarding the age of coursework.

 

[MyOdyssey]

I hadn't looked into this as an option. I know Optometry is potentially also an option but not sure what the requirements for it are. I'm relatively new to the process and wanted to really address the largest concerns upfront.

Definitely consider all your health profession options, including non-MD ones. It might save you time.

For example, do optometry or podiatry require Biochem and 2 semesters of Orgo along with 2 semesters of physics?

 

[2.7GPA]

Definitely consider all your health profession options, including non-MD ones. It might save you time.

For example, do optometry or podiatry require Biochem and 2 semesters of Orgo along with 2 semesters of physics?

Both optometry and podiatry require orgo/physics/biochem. So I would essentially be taking the same prerequisite courses and the MCAT for both of these, along with any MD/DO school. This would mean I'd be eligible to apply more broadly if I were to not be accepted to med. However, there wouldn't be any time saved on post-bacc side.