#2 ranked pharmacy school or ~#70 ranked?

[8turkeys]

I know that there are a lot of posts on this already, but I have been accepted to the University of MN pharmacy school, which according to US News is #2, and another school in the 70's. Personally, I think the sites rankings are poorly made as it only puts emphasis on research, etc but should I consider them at all when I make my decision? I have read a lot that rankings do not matter, but the school that I want to go to is in the 70's, it has higher NAPLEX, higher graduation rates, and is much cheaper (15k)! Thoughts?

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[owlegrad]

There is no emphasis on research for pharmacy school rankings. For real, look at the methodology of how they are ranked. It is by surveys sent to the schools themselves (different from how undergrad colleges are ranks as I recall).

I don't have a specific opinion on which school you should attend though. If you want to work locally to UMN and it is well regarded in the area it might help you to go there.

 

[sdh02]

I would go for cheaper pharmacy school any day over top ranked school as long as the program is legit and NAPLEX rate is above 90's.

 

[lord999]

There is no emphasis on research for pharmacy school rankings. For real, look at the methodology of how they are ranked. It is by surveys sent to the schools themselves (different from how undergrad colleges are ranks as I recall).

I don't have a specific opinion on which school you should attend though. If you want to work locally to UMN and it is well regarded in the area it might help you to go there.

In the business, there are certain schools that are both well-regarded inside and outside for both undergraduate and graduate training: Purdue, Rutgers, Wisconsin, and Washington come to mind. There are schools that have fantastic reputations as graduate schools but not undergraduates: Florida, Minnesota (graduate alma mater for me), Pittsburgh. And there are certain schools like SWOSU, NDSU, New Mexico, and Temple punch far above their research rank (they are considered lower tier research schools) but outstanding undergraduate pharmacist trainers. If I had kids who were trying to get into pharmacy school, I would go look at those undergraduate-friendly schools rather than rankings.

Rankings of the pharmacy schools should be taken in groups: 1-20, 21-40, etc. or whatever cutoff points you want. For the undergraduates, I would focus on NAPLEX passage rates and on whether you know people who placed well in jobs afterwards.

Er, that depends. UMN has an outstanding graduate school for pharmacy's subjects, but as an undergraduate pharmacy training location, it's considered only average within the Big 10 and certainly does not compete well with Wisc or Purdue. Locally in the Twin Cities, it's mostly NDSU and SDSU for retail, and institutions with the exception of Fairview-University usually have a mix from all over the Midwest with NDSU, Ohio State, and Wisc in the management ranks. If you want to work in the Twin Cities, you're pretty much ok coming from any of the Big 10 area schools (although jobs right now are impossible to find).

I would go to the cheaper institution unless you have a specific tie to UMN. Knowing how UMN works, there is a certain department and possibly two that are notorious for doing a bad job with the undergraduate pharmacists.

From the last time I saw this in ACPE, if research were figured in, it would be something like (~ means in the range and not necessarily rank):
UCSF >>> UNC ~ UTexas ~ UMN ~ UW ~ UF in a given year.

If sponsored projects (industry and other money) were figured in, it would be:
Rutgers >>>>>>>>> Michigan ~ USC ~ Purdue ~ UW >> UCSF ~ Buffalo ~ UNC ~ UW (as in Rutgers SPO is a magnitude higher than the next nine institutions combined in terms of industrial funding and that is what is just disclosed, not shared faculty with the industry nor royalties).

Rankings do not matter as long as it stays open long enough for you to pass the Boards with the coveted RPh. So, no Hawaii College of Pharmacy, but even Duquesne works (as they just limp along).

 

[maria1oh]

The sticker price of tuition might be misleading if the higher ranked school has better scholarships and financial aid.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Make a chart. X Axis is "how long the school has been open." Y Axis is "Cost of school." Try to get a school in that lower right handed side of the chart.

 

[BenJammin]

Nobody takes pharmacy school rankings seriously. Judge them by tuition, local reputation, and NAPLEX pass rate.

 

[Member 5149]

Here's the truth. The folks who state pharmacy school rankings are not taken seriously are people who A) end up in retail or B) never left for an out of state residency. I've done the latter, and IMO pharmacy school rankings do matter for residency; especially when you're trying to set yourself up for a residency you don't have connections to. I went to one of these state "schools like SWOSU, NDSU, New Mexico, and Temple" with higher NAPLEX passing rates than some of the higher tiered schools; I've had to work 4x as hard as my counterparts from top 5 programs just to prove myself and the majority of that was due to my substandard acute care education at the cheaper program. I can tell you when we reviewed applications for our residency and saw candidates coming from a similar top 5 program, they almost always fell into the green column for interviews-provided their CV met all of our other brackets as well. And if it was a toss up between another candidate, that became the tie breaker. If UofM is 100k more expensive, as it was when i was in your shoes, i would still pick the cheaper option and go through the uphill struggle. But if UofM is w/in 25-50k of the other school's sticker price, i'd choose the top 5 program. And in your case you should realize Minnesota is one of the most progressive states for pharmacists in the country. Plus, it's one of the leading states for national pharmacy leaders in the country. With those connections, as well as opportunities to do student rotations at Mayo, you'll rival anyone in the country if residency is your goal. If it's not your goal, I'd recommend picking the most cost effective route available and please avoid the new COPs.

 

[lord999]

Here's the truth. The folks who state pharmacy school rankings are not taken seriously are people who A) end up in retail or B) never left for an out of state residency. I've done the latter, and IMO pharmacy school rankings do matter for residency; especially when you're trying to set yourself up for a residency you don't have connections to. I went to one of these state "schools like SWOSU, NDSU, New Mexico, and Temple" with higher NAPLEX passing rates than some of the higher tiered schools; I've had to work 4x as hard as my counterparts from top 5 programs just to prove myself and the majority of that was due to my substandard acute care education at the cheaper program. I can tell you when we reviewed applications for our residency and saw candidates coming from a similar top 5 program, they almost always fell into the green column for interviews-provided their CV met all of our other brackets as well. And if it was a toss up between another candidate, that became the tie breaker. If UofM is 100k more expensive, as it was when i was in your shoes, i would still pick the cheaper option and go through the uphill struggle. But if UofM is w/in 25-50k of the other school's sticker price, i'd choose the top 5 program. And in your case you should realize Minnesota is one of the most progressive states for pharmacists in the country. Plus, it's one of the leading states for national pharmacy leaders in the country. With those connections, as well as opportunities to do student rotations at Mayo, you'll rival anyone in the country if residency is your goal. If it's not your goal, I'd recommend picking the most cost effective route available and please avoid the new COPs.

I guess you went to a residency that was extremely status conscious without knowing the local practice environment. Everyone in town knows about the ridiculous and extreme antipathy between Mayo and UMN such that it's very unusual to go down to Olmsted unless you are already resident there. The most highly respected hospital rotation in the state historically was Hennepin or Regions with Abbott Northwestern and Fairview upping their game considerably in the past five years. But you wouldn't know that unless your practice is here, so I can see where some people get name brand and status conscious of they do not do the research. Preparation for residency is as much an APPE choice as well as finding a residency that looks for character and resume.

And yes, we are the "leaders" of the profession, something that gives me a reason to give up my license with the sellouts we've become. But that's the graduate school area, and that's profoundly different than PharmD training. I'm not tagging overmuch on UMN but their PharmD was certainly not as good as my shake and bake undergraduate education. And to top it off for those leaders, almost all of us came from those no name schools. The one thing I will say for UMN, they have the heart to look a person as well as at the numbers and pedigree.

 

[Lnsean]

Here's the truth. The folks who state pharmacy school rankings are not taken seriously are people who A) end up in retail or B) never left for an out of state residency. I've done the latter, and IMO pharmacy school rankings do matter for residency; especially when you're trying to set yourself up for a residency you don't have connections to. I went to one of these state "schools like SWOSU, NDSU, New Mexico, and Temple" with higher NAPLEX passing rates than some of the higher tiered schools; I've had to work 4x as hard as my counterparts from top 5 programs just to prove myself and the majority of that was due to my substandard acute care education at the cheaper program. I can tell you when we reviewed applications for our residency and saw candidates coming from a similar top 5 program, they almost always fell into the green column for interviews-provided their CV met all of our other brackets as well. And if it was a toss up between another candidate, that became the tie breaker. If UofM is 100k more expensive, as it was when i was in your shoes, i would still pick the cheaper option and go through the uphill struggle. But if UofM is w/in 25-50k of the other school's sticker price, i'd choose the top 5 program. And in your case you should realize Minnesota is one of the most progressive states for pharmacists in the country. Plus, it's one of the leading states for national pharmacy leaders in the country. With those connections, as well as opportunities to do student rotations at Mayo, you'll rival anyone in the country if residency is your goal. If it's not your goal, I'd recommend picking the most cost effective route available and please avoid the new COPs.

I don't believe this at all. Does your name badge have "schools like SWOSU, NDSU, New Mexico, and Temple" on it? I mean the only person/people that would know would be the ones that interviewed you. Yes, you probably work with them but I feel...if your work ethic, competence, and attitude are great....then your reputation should carry you on the floors and during rounds. Just saying...maybe there are other factors...people like to give themselves a lot of credit for nothing....as in...I don't think you're working 4-5x as hard as anyone really....that's maybe just the normal pace at a competitive residency.

OR maybe...like the poster above said...there is just inherent bias towards you because of the ongoing feud between the two institutions in that state.

 

[quickpic007]

I know that there are a lot of posts on this already, but I have been accepted to the University of MN pharmacy school, which according to US News is #2, and another school in the 70's. Personally, I think the sites rankings are poorly made as it only puts emphasis on research, etc but should I consider them at all when I make my decision? I have read a lot that rankings do not matter, but the school that I want to go to is in the 70's, it has higher NAPLEX, higher graduation rates, and is much cheaper (15k)! Thoughts?

Is it 15 k yr or total
Umn is great also Dakota state are good programs.....

 

[8turkeys]

Is it 15 k yr or total
Umn is great also Dakota state are good programs.....

So the total program cost is 15k cheaper.

 

[8turkeys]

There is no emphasis on research for pharmacy school rankings. For real, look at the methodology of how they are ranked. It is by surveys sent to the schools themselves (different from how undergrad colleges are ranks as I recall).

I don't have a specific opinion on which school you should attend though. If you want to work locally to UMN and it is well regarded in the area it might help you to go there.

Thanks, I currently live in MN right now but have no intention of working here when I graduate.

 

[8turkeys]

I would go for cheaper pharmacy school any day over top ranked school as long as the program is legit and NAPLEX rate is above 90's.

Naplex is constantly 99% plus, highest in nation. UMN is 89% pass rate, but somehow they rank it better?

 

[8turkeys]

Nobody takes pharmacy school rankings seriously. Judge them by tuition, local reputation, and NAPLEX pass rate.

Thanks, yeah I think NAPLEX is a way better indicator of the quality of the program, but am frustrated why the rankings do not reflect them. The school I want to go to is in SD which has had the highest NAPLEX in the nation for many years but somehow they are not highly ranked.

 

[lord999]

Naplex is constantly 99% plus, highest in nation. UMN is 89% pass rate, but somehow they rank it better?

Graduate school, not the undergraduate. The graduate school for UMN is considered the best or second best in kinetics, medicinal chemistry, and admin. That's what the reputation is staked on, and that part for the graduate school is deserved. It's not the undergraduate professional program though.

If you're going to SDSU, you're going to a fine school. They have a strong presence in the Twin Cities, and they have a reputation of competent without being dramatic. It's a better undergraduate school than UMN for sure. Don't worry about being status conscious, worry about finding a job afterwards.

(I take it you live in ABC and possibly CRapids? That's the only place in the Twin Cities where I would understand a native wanting to leave it unless it's the winter.)

 

[spacecowgirl]

I was going to guess SDSU. I think SDSU is a phenomenal school in my experience of precepting their students. Rankings schmankings.

 

[pharmrx33]

Go with where your heart is. I would not solely base your school choice on NAPLEX pass rates. I would estimate that the vast majority of those who do not pass are moreso aberrations than the rule for most schools with long standing tradition. Then again, this is coming from someone who takes the NAPLEX next Wednesday

In addition, rankings do not matter per se, but as aforementioned, a particular school could help you with your hopeful role in pharmacy down the line. Not saying it is the end all be all, but going somewhere with rich traditions in the particular field you like (UNC- academia, Rutgers- industry, etc.) may give you an extra step ahead if you are an exemplary student at that institution.

I will be a 1st gen resident for my school at an institution next year. This can play a role during interview invites for residency with respect to your school having a good reputation at a residency site, but not something to base where you're going to school. Best of luck in your quest to being a pharmacist!!!

 

[quickpic007]

So the total program cost is 15k cheaper.

It don't really matter then look at rent cost and how good the city is

 

[Member 5149]

I don't believe this at all. Does your name badge have "schools like SWOSU, NDSU, New Mexico, and Temple" on it? I mean the only person/people that would know would be the ones that interviewed you. Yes, you probably work with them but I feel...if your work ethic, competence, and attitude are great....then your reputation should carry you on the floors and during rounds. Just saying...maybe there are other factors...people like to give themselves a lot of credit for nothing....as in...I don't think you're working 4-5x as hard as anyone really....that's maybe just the normal pace at a competitive residency.

OR maybe...like the poster above said...there is just inherent bias towards you because of the ongoing feud between the two institutions in that state.

I'm simply giving the original poster advice I would like to have had if i was in their shoes at the time; hence the cost break down with how I would approach the situation. Thank you for going out of your way to undermine the take home message which was obviously missed. Please share with us the conversations you've been a part of at residency advisory committee about out of state candidates no one knew or had a connection they could reach out to about their rotations. Also this MN feud spiel sounds very interesting but it has no bearings on the point I'm making. Ppl here are reading bits and pieces of a paragraph and responding to whatever prompts the strongest emotional response.

Take home message: Rotations make or break you when you're a P4 student and certainly those connections you make will help carry you toward the residency interview within your local area (coming from high vs. lower ranked program is of low importance here). However, if you're planning to pursue a competitive PGY1 in a different region of the country or particularly a PGY2 where you have no connections, then having a highly ranked program on your CV can bypass those connections and get your foot in the door for either a PPS interview at midyear or an onsite interview provided the rest of your CV is competitive. You may not know there is a specialty you love until your P4 rotations though so if the cost between the two programs is not too different, why not set yourself up for success? Again none of this matters if you wish to pursue community practice or a PGY1 in your local area.

 

[lord999]

I'm so confused. Why do you keep talking about undergraduate and graduate programs? I thought OP was going to pharmacy school. Pharmacy school is a professional program.

Because rankings are made mostly on reputation, and most faculty consider both the undergraduate and graduate programs (and actually, mostly the graduate programs) when ranking. Undergraduate work is beneath most faculty as it doesn't pay to be more than a mediocre PharmD trainer. And while you consider it a professional program, the perspective from the faculty is that it's still a first degree and is treated as undergraduate in terms of student accountability. There's no strong recognition between universities or the Feds for notable undergraduate/professional teaching outside of the PharmD's themselves. There is strong peer recognition and Fed consideration for having a quality laboratory or consulting practice and employable graduate students. It's only the faculty who have both undergraduate pharmacy and graduate training that appreciate the professional training to some extent, but we still know how we have to earn a living, and most schools are businesses that so happen to run a pharmacy school.

 

[BenJammin]

Rankings can NEVER replace local reputation. If I get student after student who isn't meeting expectations yet they're coming from a "top 5 school", do you really think I'm going to care about some ranking based on reputation?

 

[Lnsean]

I'm simply giving the original poster advice I would like to have had if i was in their shoes at the time; hence the cost break down with how I would approach the situation. Thank you for going out of your way to undermine the take home message which was obviously missed. Please share with us the conversations you've been a part of at residency advisory committee about out of state candidates no one knew or had a connection they could reach out to about their rotations. Also this MN feud spiel sounds very interesting but it has no bearings on the point I'm making. Ppl here are reading bits and pieces of a paragraph and responding to whatever prompts the strongest emotional response.

Take home message: Rotations make or break you when you're a P4 student and certainly those connections you make will help carry you toward the residency interview within your local area (coming from high vs. lower ranked program is of low importance here). However, if you're planning to pursue a competitive PGY1 in a different region of the country or particularly a PGY2 where you have no connections, then having a highly ranked program on your CV can bypass those connections and get your foot in the door for either a PPS interview at midyear or an onsite interview provided the rest of your CV is competitive. You may not know there is a specialty you love until your P4 rotations though so if the cost between the two programs is not too different, why not set yourself up for success? Again none of this matters if you wish to pursue community practice or a PGY1 in your local area.

If you typed it out...then expect people to respond to it...it's part of personal responsibility. Your original post started off great until you went off tangent and started talking about how everyone is against you and that you're the victim of some kind of bias. While that may or may not be true...I don't buy that you're working 4x as hard as anyone just to prove yourself...you're discrediting the work that everyone else around you is doing. People often super exaggerate their importance and work. Step off your high stool. Whenever I hear someone say they work 4x, 5x, 10x harder than their colleagues...I just roll my eyes...because this is someone who will always play the victim card for the rest of his career. I may even speculate that attitude might be your problem...you're going to have a hard time whenever you approach someone with the mentality that you have to prove something to them...no one needs or appreciates that kind of aggressiveness right up front...let your competence speak for itself. And no, I don't need to sit in on any advisory committee to bare witness to common character flaws.

Also, from my previous experience rotating, working, and shadowing clinical pharmacists all day, the job of a clinical pharmacist is what you make it. IF you build a solid rapport, you will be an invaluable resource to the unit/team and doctors and nurses. I have never once heard any one that I was rounding with asked these pharmacists where they went to school....you know why? because it didn't matter...when the heat was on...they knew what they were doing. The pharmacists that knew their stuff always had doctors, nurses, and everyone coming up to them for input. Now, if you're one of those clinical pharmacists that does nothing all day but med rec and IV to PO switches...documenting every little intervention in your cute spreadsheet so people know you did something and not just wasting space......yea...you're going to feel that everyone is against you...that you're such an untapped talent waiting for an opportunity to show them up...that the world is dying to know how smart you are. No, we don't. You're not that special. That's all.

 

[Member 5149]

If you typed it out...then expect people to respond to it...it's part of personal responsibility. Your original post started off great until you went off tangent and started talking about how everyone is against you and that you're the victim of some kind of bias. While that may or may not be true...I don't buy that you're working 4x as hard as anyone just to prove yourself...you're discrediting the work that everyone else around you is doing. People often super exaggerate their importance and work. Step off your high stool. Whenever I hear someone say they work 4x, 5x, 10x harder than their colleagues...I just roll my eyes...because this is someone who will always play the victim card for the rest of his career. I may even speculate that attitude might be your problem...you're going to have a hard time whenever you approach someone with the mentality that you have to prove something to them...no one needs or appreciates that kind of aggressiveness right up front...let your competence speak for itself. And no, I don't need to sit in on any advisory committee to bare witness to common character flaws.

Also, from my previous experience rotating, working, and shadowing clinical pharmacists all day, the job of a clinical pharmacist is what you make it. IF you build a solid rapport, you will be an invaluable resource to the unit/team and doctors and nurses. I have never once heard any one that I was rounding with asked these pharmacists where they went to school....you know why? because it didn't matter...when the heat was on...they knew what they were doing. The pharmacists that knew their stuff always had doctors, nurses, and everyone coming up to them for input. Now, if you're one of those clinical pharmacists that does nothing all day but med rec and IV to PO switches...documenting every little intervention in your cute spreadsheet so people know you did something and not just wasting space......yea...you're going to feel that everyone is against you...that you're such an untapped talent waiting for an opportunity to show them up...that the world is dying to know how smart you are. No, we don't. You're not that special. That's all.

The question the OP asked hits home-I was once in the same predicament. You're not allowing this thread to stay on topic and ur looking for a fight. Twice.... Twice you've missed the take home message.. I even bolded it for you the last time. You're not reading the post, just look responding to what sets you off emotionally.

You've created a lot of words out of thin air and are now wanting to give me a lesson on accountability? This is too rich.
"Your original post started off great until you went off tangent and started talking about how everyone is against you and that you're the victim of some kind of bias. " --> This is trumpspeak. Where and when did I say this?

"med rec and IV to PO switches...documenting every little intervention in your cute spreadsheet"??? You clearly don't know what a clinical pharmacist does-sorry you had a lame APPE experience.

No one wants an individual who comes in guns blazing telling physicians and nurses they're doing things wrong-ditto. Hooray we agree on something. And nothing you've stated about pharmacy schools has been incorrect, I agree again (I just wish you had shown me the same respect and read my posts thoroughly).

But since you haven't, just like you did, I could speculate a lot of things about you; you're probably a gem to work with-when I say gem I mean passive aggressive __________ being churned up by the corporate dungeon of retail with cynicism gleaning from your teeth at every turn just itching to get into an argument on SDN. (Which must be very therapeutic for you btw since you post on every thread) ..............Sad. That's all.

 

[Lnsean]

The question the OP asked hits home-I was once in the same predicament. You're not allowing this thread to stay on topic and ur looking for a fight. Twice.... Twice you've missed the take home message.. I even bolded it for you the last time. You're not reading the post, just look responding to what sets you off emotionally.

You've created a lot of words out of thin air and are now wanting to give me a lesson on accountability? This is too rich.
"Your original post started off great until you went off tangent and started talking about how everyone is against you and that you're the victim of some kind of bias. " --> This is trumpspeak. Where and when did I say this?

"med rec and IV to PO switches...documenting every little intervention in your cute spreadsheet"??? You clearly don't know what a clinical pharmacist does-sorry you had a lame APPE experience.

No one wants an individual who comes in guns blazing telling physicians and nurses they're doing things wrong-ditto. Hooray we agree on something. And nothing you've stated about pharmacy schools has been incorrect, I agree again (I just wish you had shown me the same respect and read my posts thoroughly).

But since you haven't, just like you did, I could speculate a lot of things about you; you're probably a gem to work with-when I say gem I mean passive aggressive __________ being churned up by the corporate dungeon of retail with cynicism gleaning from your teeth at every turn just itching to get into an argument on SDN. (Which must be very therapeutic for you btw since you post on every thread) ..............Sad. That's all.

I am answering OP's question...you're just not liking the response because it hits at you personally....which is understandable. My point is that there is really rarely any bias in regards to what school you went to. No one outside of those that interviewed you will know or care. If you are a good worker and build a solid rapport...people will judge you on merit. You've cited a personal story to indicate otherwise and I am arguing that it is mostly just you...not the institution....because we are only hearing your side of the story. Whenever someone cites an anecdotal story...if there are other factors that they fail to mention...then it should be put forth. Like I said, the fact is that there is rarely any institution bias....most of the bias is really dependent on your attitude, work ethics, and competence. Everyone likes to play the victim and blame it on the system. Just because you don't like what you hear doesn't discredit my point. I did give you the benefit as the other posters have in citing a feud between Mayo and UMN. Take it as you will...it's not personal. If you typed it then be prepared to defend it....this isn't grade school...I'm not soft on hurt feelings.

 

[pharmrx33]

I am answering OP's question...you're just not liking the response because it hits at you personally....which is understandable. My point is that there is really rarely any bias in regards to what school you went to. No one outside of those that interviewed you will know or care. If you are a good worker and build a solid rapport...people will judge you on merit. You've cited a personal story to indicate otherwise and I am arguing that it is mostly just you...not the institution....because we are only hearing your side of the story. Whenever someone cites an anecdotal story...if there are other factors that they fail to mention...then it should be put forth. Like I said, the fact is that there is rarely any institution bias....most of the bias is really dependent on your attitude, work ethics, and competence. Everyone likes to play the victim and blame it on the system. Just because you don't like what you hear doesn't discredit my point. I did give you the benefit as the other posters have in citing a feud between Mayo and UMN. Take it as you will...it's not personal. If you typed it then be prepared to defend it....this isn't grade school...I'm not soft on hurt feelings.

I agree with both of you. Rankings themselves don't necessarily play a huge role, but as others have alluded to there certainly is an institutional bias. This mainly though isn't based on rankings, but rather on residency programs that have been "burned" by former residents that graduated from a particular institution. At least this is what I have been told.

Why take the grad from a school that you've had three bad residents from when you have this other applicant from an institution that you've had great success with.

 

[Jbrl]

If the price is roughly comparable, pick UMN. I say this on the basis of a few things:

1. Opportunities: research opportunities, school resources, etc.
2. "Prestige:" doesn't really matter for local retail or residencies, but as other people alluded to, having a school on your resume that people know of helps if you're going cross-country. Holds true for fellowships, grad schools, and non-trad paths should you decide. Rankings aren't perfect but they do dictate perception.
3. Cohort - better students around you = better networks

 

[Stella14]

Back in the day when I graduated , University of Il at Chicago was # 5. I did my pre/pharmacy at University of Illinois Champaign-Urbana. It has come up on every non retail interview I have had and still looks good to this day.


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