2008 Pathology applicants

[so somatic]

As you begin to consider where to apply and interview for a PGY1 position in Pathology, please ask the potential program: "What is your American Board of Pathology (ABP) first time pass rates for your residents in AP and in CP?"

I made the mistake of asking a different question which seemed like a good idea at the time, but in retrospect is not as important: "Where do your residents go for fellowships?"

The ABP publishes a "Program Performance Report" each year for each program, which gives aggregate numbers of pass/fail rates for that program. This report can be obtained by the program director only: it is not for public consumption.

National AP pass rate average is currently 78% over the past 6 years and national CP pass rate is 75% during the same time period. Please be wary of accepting a position in any program that either "doesn't know the exact figures" or whose numbers are significantly below these averages. And please don't walk away from an interview thinking "Wow, they are so nice!" without knowing the pass rates: their friendliness does not necessarily correlate with a pass result on the Boards!

Of course, the algorithm you use to decide on where to rank training programs is yours to make. I am not trying to diminish personal issues in making your decision (eg "My spouse/partner really wants to live in that area"), but I think that the pass rate should be high on your list.

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[Thaitanium]

Thanks for the advice.

So, how do you know if a program is not BS'ing percentages with you? Since these %s are only available to PDs, then if they really want you in their program, they could just tell you some arbitrary number.

You also have to find out how many of their residents sat for the exam. So, a 100% boards pass rate which included an n=100 is not exactly the same as a boards pass rate of 100% with an n=25.

Is the pass rate the first time pass rate?

 

[sleeping beauty]

also ask the programs how many attendings they have.

do not count FREIDA for information since programs can provide FREIDA false information. some small programs intentionally provide FREIDA and candidates false information in order to fill their spots.

 

[sleeping beauty]

one program lists over 40 faculty in their dept web and over 30 in FREIDA. actually they have only four half (NOT 4.5) but 4 x 0.5 = 2 faculty.

 

[mlw03]

you all bring up good points, so what can we as applicants do to try and make sure the info we're getting is truthful? i know we can talk to current residents about some things, but about others the residents simply won't have the info we want because they're not entitled to it (as in the example given above).

 

[so somatic]

My point in this post was to make sure you ask the question about the board pass rate. I cannot imagine that a Program Director would actually lie about it. I suggest that if they don't answer the question or dodge it, you could read into that whatever you wish. Or you could simply ask to see the Program Performance Report.

Without knowing that this is a valid question that you should ask, you may overlook it and with it valuable information in making your decision on where to train.

Good luck.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

To an extent, I think the first time board pass rate could be a useful tool in evaluating what type of prep a program gives its residents. However, I feel like preparing for any type of examination is almost entirely dependent on the individual. I mean, if you don't put any time in on your own and expect your program to spoonfeed you, of course you're gonna fail. Not to say that a 1st time pass rate of 60% shouldn't set off alarms, but its hard to look at numbers when the individuals themselves may play a larger role in determining the pass rate than the program itself.

 

[yaah]

Yeah, I agree, while board pass rate is a good statistic to pay attention too, many programs suffer because of resident quality. A good program does not necessarily make a good resident. You could have a bad program that gives you very little to do (and thus TONS of reading and study time) but doesn't prepare you for real practice, yet allows you to pass the boards. Although I do agree that there isn't much excuse for a supposed big name program if their boards pass rate is low. You can only blame so many bad residents!

Agree with the comment on listing # of faculty - many programs list all the researchers in the department who will have little to no contact with residents, and don't do anything with service. I guess maybe you could get at this by seeing a faculty schedule (not sure if they would give that to you) or finding out how many faculty sign out or participate in each service.

 

[mlw03]

darkside and yaah - you make good points about there being a significant component of resident quality with respect to board pass rates. and i agree that we're all adults here and that there is a massive component of self responsibility to prepare for examinations the best way we see fit (although i would hope that in practice the training itself provides most of the board preparation and that self-study is the icing on the cake, not the other way around). but if the program is picking poor quality residents, doesn't that also say something about the program? i go back to my examples about medical school because i'm more familiar with it than with a path residency, but if a med school class of 100 has only 80 by graduation day 4 years later, to me that implies that part (but of course not all) of the reason for that is the school did a poor job selecting students who can complete the required coursework. i would think an analagous process occurs during any type of residency. your thoughts?