gujudentist

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Hey everyone,

I think its time for the new batch of OMFS hopefuls to start posting/networking etc. I basically want to get some advice about my chances at 4 yr vs 6 yr...I'm debating between the two and not strictly due to my scores but also because of lifestyle, debt, future goals. To give a little insight I'm posting my stats below. Also, I do want to stay involved in academia and research for some time after residency. Thanks!

NBDE Part I: 90
Class Ranking:23/80
4 year or 6 year: debating between the two.
Externship(s): 2 so far, have another one lined up this summer.
Research: one publication in the Clinics of North America OMFS;another project i'm working on hoping to present at AAOMS
Extracurriculars: MPH, involved in class stuff, TA-ing, etc...

basically i would like my chances except my rank went to hell after suffering through prostho lab.



Thanks again.
 
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servitup

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you are good to go. rank won't matter too much if you get good letters and do good externships. you should do a 6 year program.
 
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Nice. You look like a solid applicant. May I ask to how many programs you will be applying?
 
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Long time reader, first time poster. Good thread. I think most of the people on here are a bit on the gunner side so your stats may be skewed on the high scale, but that's just my opinion. You should be fine to apply to either a 4 or 6 year program. Per my program director, Part 1 >90 is huge in the application process. That's what I'm worried about. Here's my stats.

NBDE Part I: 87
Class Ranking: 16/85
4 year or 6 year: Whatever will take me
Externship(s): 4 externships total by the end (2 weeks at each place)
Research: Zero
Extracurriculars: plenty of random crap to fill an application

My question is: Do I apply to both 4 and 6 year programs hoping to get in somewhere or just to 4 year programs because my part 1 will keep me out of some 6-year med school requirements?
 
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gujudentist

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Nice. You look like a solid applicant. May I ask to how many programs you will be applying?
hey, im going to apply to as many as possible. possibly 20-30? i need to talk to my program director at my dental school and figure it out.
 

2thguy82

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Apply to 4 and 6 years. You don't always know the details behind why certain programs will or wont like your application regarding rank/boards/etc. If you want to be an oral surgeon, apply to the oral surgery residencies you want.

Obviously keep in mind higher profile programs will be more discriminating, but that goes for competitive 4 and 6 yr programs alike
 

gujudentist

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Long time reader, first time poster. Good thread. I think most of the people on here are a bit on the gunner side so your stats may be skewed on the high scale, but that's just my opinion. You should be fine to apply to either a 4 or 6 year program. Per my program director, Part 1 >90 is huge in the application process. That's what I'm worried about. Here's my stats.

NBDE Part I: 87
Class Ranking: 16/85
4 year or 6 year: Whatever will take me
Externship(s): 4 externships total by the end (2 weeks at each place)
Research: Zero
Extracurriculars: plenty of random crap to fill an application

My question is: Do I apply to both 4 and 6 year programs hoping to get in somewhere or just to 4 year programs because my part 1 will keep me out of some 6-year med school requirements?
hey, i think you have great stats...i wish my rank was still up where yours is...top 20% is a prerequisite for some programs; and while they don't specify board scores, word of mouth is that they go for high 80s, which you have. I know it says on the Ohio State's website that a prereq is top 20% just to extern there...which sucks for me, it was on my radar of programs i wanted to apply to.

good luck!
 

gujudentist

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you are good to go. rank won't matter too much if you get good letters and do good externships. you should do a 6 year program.
Thanks for the input. 6 year would be nice; especially cause im thinking about a career in academics and research so we'll see.
 

PK_Bond

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My Stats:
Part 1: 91
Class Rank: 16/75
No Externships
Few Extra Curriculars
It is been 2 years since graduation, so I wonder what are my chances of getting in?
 
Jan 25, 2010
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My Stats:
Part 1: 91
Class Rank: 16/75
No Externships
Few Extra Curriculars
It is been 2 years since graduation, so I wonder what are my chances of getting in?
Don't worry about being 2 yrs out, just be prepared to talk about it and how it can be an advantage for you and the program. I was out 7+ yrs before getting in this year. Some programs liked the fact that I had experience, and some didn't so I didn't get interviews there. Apply to a bunch of programs if you can. Your stats look good but you NEED to do some externships. Try to do 2-3 at least and at least 2 weeks at each program. Programs like to know that you have some sort of idea of what you are getting yourself into and won't quit on them after you start. Externships are great to know about individual programs but it is also really important to know what kind of lifestyle you will have as a resident and the scope of what you will be doing (not just implants and wisdom teeth). Best of luck to you!
 

PK_Bond

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I am trying to get into an Internship or a Externship, but I am not able to find one that will take one after graduation.... Do you know of any programs that do it?
 
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I am trying to get into an Internship or a Externship, but I am not able to find one that will take one after graduation.... Do you know of any programs that do it?
For most programs it is a hassle because of liability issues, even if you carry your own malpractice. If you cannot find any that will let you do a hands-on externship, just do one that is more of an observational one. There should be plenty of programs that will let you do that. It is better than nothing and you will still be able to learn a lot. Try to take call with the residents. You won't be able to extract teeth, but who cares because you probably take out lots of teeth at your job now anyways. That is only beneficial for dental students. The only real negative is not being able to scrub in and retract during an operation so you can see up close what is going on. I did two externships, one was strictly observational and the other was supposed to be, but when I got there, they let me scrub in, retract, and take out teeth. The latter was obviously more beneficial but I still learned from the first one. When I was on interviews, nobody asked if it was a hands on externship but I think it definitely helped me get interviews that I had done a couple of externships to show them I knew a little of what I was getting myself into. Do as many as you can. I know it is tough to take that much time off work, but it is worth it. You may even decide after the externships that OMFS is not for you. PM me if you want more specifics.
 
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Hey all, it's nice to see a thread for the new batch! I'll go ahead and follow suit by laying down my stats, be honest please and tell me what you think:

NBDE Part I: 90
Class Ranking: non-ranking school
Applying only to 4 year programs.
Externship(s): 1 so far, have another 3 lined up this summer/fall.
Research: two publication in the journal of toxicology on nerve receptors, and a project and presentation on bone regeneration and growth factors.
Extracurriculars: president of OMFS club, dental school tutor, undergrad mentor, community service in dentistry,
 
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gujudentist

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Hey all, it's nice to see a thread for the new batch! I'll go ahead and follow suit by laying down my stats, be honest please and tell me what you think:

NBDE Part I: 90
Class Ranking: non-ranking school
Applying only to 4 year programs.
Externship(s): 1 so far, have another 3 lined up this summer/fall.
Research: two publication in the journal of toxicology on nerve receptors, and a project and presentation on bone regeneration and growth factors.
Extracurriculars: president of OMFS club, dental school tutor, undergrad mentor, community service in dentistry,
hey, i think these are solid. if you dont mind me asking, why just 4 year programs?

your research seems solid; ive heard from my program director that its not enough to "just" do fluffy cross-sectional research or retrospective stuff, etc, so i think yours will be an asset.
 

armorshell

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your research seems solid; ive heard from my program director that its not enough to "just" do fluffy cross-sectional research or retrospective stuff, etc, so i think yours will be an asset.
Research is always a bonus, but you don't have to do any to get in to OMFS if you're not interested in it.
 
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hey, i think these are solid. if you dont mind me asking, why just 4 year programs?

your research seems solid; ive heard from my program director that its not enough to "just" do fluffy cross-sectional research or retrospective stuff, etc, so i think yours will be an asset.
Thanks for your response. In regard to your question about why I'm choosing to do a 4-year, there are several reasons for my decision. Deciding to go the 4 year or 6 year route is a personal choice of which there are really no right or wrong answers. That being said, here are my reasons for wanting to do a 4-year:

1. I believe I will get all the training I need to become a great oral surgeon in a solid 4-year program. I do not feel that an MD dictates the quality of a program and unless I was planning on doing a fellowship or solely looking for an academic career I do not think it's necessary.

2. I am mostly interested in dentoalveolar surgery, orthognathic surgery, trauma, and benign pathology. None of my interests (except trauma) overlap with that of any other field of medicine, therefore obtaining the MD for political reasons is not justified in my mind.

3. I am planning to start a family soon and would therefore wish not to prolong my training and increase my debt if it is not fully justified to do so. I'm looking to do private practice as it will allow me a more predictable schedule so that I can balance surgery time with family time.
 

txlonghorn

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Hey all, it's nice to see a thread for the new batch! I'll go ahead and follow suit by laying down my stats, be honest please and tell me what you think:

NBDE Part I: 90
Class Ranking: non-ranking school
Applying only to 4 year programs.
Externship(s): 1 so far, have another 3 lined up this summer/fall.
Research: two publication in the journal of toxicology on nerve receptors, and a project and presentation on bone regeneration and growth factors.
Extracurriculars: president of OMFS club, dental school tutor, undergrad mentor, community service in dentistry,
If you don't mind telling, which school do you attend? The reason I ask is that you mention that it does not rank. Obviously, you have proven yourself with the 90 score, but do you know how not being ranked is viewed by programs? Maybe you have spoken with upperclassmen who might have given you some insight about this.
 

gujudentist

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Research is always a bonus, but you don't have to do any to get in to OMFS if you're not interested in it.
Agreed. I mis-"wrote" earlier...I meant if you do research, for it to be a bonus/asset to your application, it can't be fluff, which it wasn't in the case of thunderdrome.
 
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Thanks for your response. In regard to your question about why I'm choosing to do a 4-year, there are several reasons for my decision. Deciding to go the 4 year or 6 year route is a personal choice of which there are really no right or wrong answers. That being said, here are my reasons for wanting to do a 4-year:

1. I believe I will get all the training I need to become a great oral surgeon in a solid 4-year program. I do not feel that an MD dictates the quality of a program and unless I was planning on doing a fellowship or solely looking for an academic career I do not think it's necessary.

2. I am mostly interested in dentoalveolar surgery, orthognathic surgery, trauma, and benign pathology. None of my interests (except trauma) overlap with that of any other field of medicine, therefore obtaining the MD for political reasons is not justified in my mind.

3. I am planning to start a family soon and would therefore wish not to prolong my training and increase my debt if it is not fully justified to do so. I'm looking to do private practice as it will allow me a more predictable schedule so that I can balance surgery time with family time.

Bravo! Good choice. You'll be a great oral surgeon.
 
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If you don't mind telling, which school do you attend? The reason I ask is that you mention that it does not rank. Obviously, you have proven yourself with the 90 score, but do you know how not being ranked is viewed by programs? Maybe you have spoken with upperclassmen who might have given you some insight about this.
I go to an ivy league school that seems to carry a bit of weight with it's name.
 

InMyCrossHairs

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I go to an ivy league school that seems to carry a bit of weight with it's name.
Oh please. It carries no weight, at all. You have nothing on the other non-ivy leaguers. My opinion is these schools are usually lacking in clinical opportunities, and thus skills.

The one thing I can always count on from our Ivy League Apps, is for them to start name dropping and talking about their "pipelines" into other programs.
 
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Are there other loans to take out to help with residency applications? I plan on applying to as many schools as possible to make sure I get in somewhere. I know it will be expensive, but the loans I have now don't have an extra 3000 laying around somewhere.

Also, how many schools does the average applicant apply to?
 

armorshell

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Are there other loans to take out to help with residency applications? I plan on applying to as many schools as possible to make sure I get in somewhere. I know it will be expensive, but the loans I have now don't have an extra 3000 laying around somewhere.

Also, how many schools does the average applicant apply to?
3000? My whole application, secondaries, interviewing cost was around $10,000
 
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Oh please. It carries no weight, at all. You have nothing on the other non-ivy leaguers. My opinion is these schools are usually lacking in clinical opportunities, and thus skills.

The one thing I can always count on from our Ivy League Apps, is for them to start name dropping and talking about their "pipelines" into other programs.
Typical response. I was merely answering a question, what's your deal? Unless you do in fact have experience with going to this school you have no idea what you're talking about.
 

txlonghorn

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I go to an ivy league school that seems to carry a bit of weight with it's name.
I will assume that it is Harvard, as the other ivy schools rank. Thanks for the information and good luck! I will applying to what I assume is your school this summer!
 
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I will assume that it is Harvard, as the other ivy schools rank. Thanks for the information and good luck! I will applying to what I assume is your school this summer!
That is a fair assumption. So you are pre-dental? Whatcha doing over on the residency section of sdn?
 
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OK, 10,000 then. Still didn't answer my question. Do I have to pimp out a little while or are there extra loans?
 

caffeinehigh

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If I will be applying for matriculation in 2012 do you think I will need to take the GRE? I am worried about my NDBE1, even though the National avg for my year was 79.

My NDBE 1 is only 83 :mad:
Class Rank: 10/52
Class President. Student Body President. Admissions Committee. Tons of extracurriculars during dental school and community service.
1 Externship scheduled currently. Likely will shoot for 4 or more if I decide to pursue OMS.
Research on implants (Grant from Nobel and AAID) and presentation at AAID, and Hinman meetings. Probably do another research study based around stereolithic guides or implants. Great relationship with Dean's and OMS faculty at school as well as OMS in community.

What do you realistically think my chances are for a 4 year programs? Honest responses please.
 
Jun 9, 2009
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If I will be applying for matriculation in 2012 do you think I will need to take the GRE? I am worried about my NDBE1, even though the National avg for my year was 79.

My NDBE 1 is only 83 :mad:
Class Rank: 10/52
Class President. Student Body President. Admissions Committee. Tons of extracurriculars during dental school and community service.
1 Externship scheduled currently. Likely will shoot for 4 or more if I decide to pursue OMS.
Research on implants (Grant from Nobel and AAID) and presentation at AAID, and Hinman meetings. Probably do another research study based around stereolithic guides or implants. Great relationship with Dean's and OMS faculty at school as well as OMS in community.

What do you realistically think my chances are for a 4 year programs? Honest responses please.
First of all the GRE's have nothing to do with oral surgery and I've never heard of any programs interested in them. I think your board score is very low for surgery. I'm just being honest when I say you're chances of being competitive for a 4-year is low.
 

prestone346

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If I will be applying for matriculation in 2012 do you think I will need to take the GRE? I am worried about my NDBE1, even though the National avg for my year was 79.

My NDBE 1 is only 83 :mad:
Class Rank: 10/52
Class President. Student Body President. Admissions Committee. Tons of extracurriculars during dental school and community service.
1 Externship scheduled currently. Likely will shoot for 4 or more if I decide to pursue OMS.
Research on implants (Grant from Nobel and AAID) and presentation at AAID, and Hinman meetings. Probably do another research study based around stereolithic guides or implants. Great relationship with Dean's and OMS faculty at school as well as OMS in community.

What do you realistically think my chances are for a 4 year programs? Honest responses please.
I would agree that 83 is quite low for surgery, but I do remember reading that everyone from Temple matched this last round and that their board scores ranged from 84 to 91 or something. So perhaps its still possible for you.
 

caffeinehigh

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First of all the GRE's have nothing to do with oral surgery and I've never heard of any programs interested in them. I think your board score is very low for surgery. I'm just being honest when I say you're chances of being competitive for a 4-year is low.
With the NDBE1 going P/F some school's are considering using GRE as an admission test. Since the NDBE1 isn't supposed to be used for that purpose anyway according to the Joint Commission this seems to make sense.
 
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With the NDBE1 going P/F some school's are considering using GRE as an admission test. Since the NDBE1 isn't supposed to be used for that purpose anyway according to the Joint Commission this seems to make sense.
That may be so, but as of now that is not the case, and I wouldn't try to predict the ever-so-slow moving future of specialty admissions. They said this year they were gonna have a pass/fail boards and it never happened.
 
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Happy to see the contribution on this thread, I've been looking for something like this for a while. Here are my stats:

NBDE: 91
Class Rank: 20/92
Externships: 3 two week externships
Research: Had a publication in a medical journal from undergraduate research, only minor research in dental school
Interest: 4 year programs mainly, although I am still open to 6 year programs.
 
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Anyone know what the process is like for Canadians? Are they any more leniant about NBDE scores since we get absolutely no help from our schools? Are Canadians any less likely to be accepted? etc...
 

1992Corolla

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3000? My whole application, secondaries, interviewing cost was around $10,000
Didn't you go on like 23 interviews?:D

I had eight interviews and my price was about 5000. 4 interviews were 2 hrs or less away from me, the other ones were flights. Remember, PASS application fees, trascript request fee, official board score fees, secondary fees, travel, hotel, rental, food, etc. It adds up quick.

As far as thinking that the dental school you went to plays a factor..it might, but really it boils down to how your interview goes.

Like someone else said, our range at Temple was 84-91. I can tell you that board scores are great but they are not everything. Most of us had about 600 extractions (counting temple clinic, trips abroad, externships) under our belts, we have all done impacted teeth (a few of us abroad used mallets and chisels to go after some partially impacted teeth), good letters, good extracurriculars, etc. Mix in a little luck and you'll get there.

The trick is to graduate on time so you can start your program:scared:

:D
 

armorshell

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Didn't you go on like 23 interviews?:D

I had eight interviews and my price was about 5000. 4 interviews were 2 hrs or less away from me, the other ones were flights. Remember, PASS application fees, trascript request fee, official board score fees, secondary fees, travel, hotel, rental, food, etc. It adds up quick.

:D
11 (I think), but only 1 of those didn't require me to fly
 

shabu2

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Oh please. It carries no weight, at all. You have nothing on the other non-ivy leaguers. My opinion is these schools are usually lacking in clinical opportunities, and thus skills.

The one thing I can always count on from our Ivy League Apps, is for them to start name dropping and talking about their "pipelines" into other programs.
Its funny how non-Ivies love to bash the Ivies, especially the ones who speak only from hearsay. I have met plenty of great non ivy dentists, and I have met equally plenty more who were not great from other schools. I went to Columbia and got a great clinical experience with a good variety of cases. On the other hand, I also had classmates who did not get a great clinical experience. This is probably TRUE in most dental schools, but I can't comment since I did not go to a NON-IVY dental school.

I must also say that everything being equal on a CV a PD would consider school name as weight. Traditionally, schools like Harvard, Columbia, non ivy UCLA, UCSF, UConn produce students who are specialty driven and thus enter specialties at a greater percentage than other d-schools. Is this because these schools were highly selective of the top candidates, based on DAT and UG performance, thinking they will also do well in school and on boards for residency placement?.......most likely.

But I also agree, unless you graduated from both an Ivy and Non Ivy dental school, you have no basis for criticizing or comparing. Oh that pipeline you mention for feeding into programs? It exists, and for a reason.
 

prestone346

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Didn't you go on like 23 interviews?:D

I had eight interviews and my price was about 5000. 4 interviews were 2 hrs or less away from me, the other ones were flights. Remember, PASS application fees, trascript request fee, official board score fees, secondary fees, travel, hotel, rental, food, etc. It adds up quick.

As far as thinking that the dental school you went to plays a factor..it might, but really it boils down to how your interview goes.

Like someone else said, our range at Temple was 84-91. I can tell you that board scores are great but they are not everything. Most of us had about 600 extractions (counting temple clinic, trips abroad, externships) under our belts, we have all done impacted teeth (a few of us abroad used mallets and chisels to go after some partially impacted teeth), good letters, good extracurriculars, etc. Mix in a little luck and you'll get there.

The trick is to graduate on time so you can start your program:scared:

:D
Hey corolla, were you specifically asked during your interviews about how many extractions you had done thus far?
I guess I never really thought that that would be something they might ask about too much since it is a hard thing to substantiate/prove.
 

InMyCrossHairs

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Its funny how non-Ivies love to bash the Ivies, especially the ones who speak only from hearsay. I have met plenty of great non ivy dentists, and I have met equally plenty more who were not great from other schools. I went to Columbia and got a great clinical experience with a good variety of cases. On the other hand, I also had classmates who did not get a great clinical experience. This is probably TRUE in most dental schools, but I can't comment since I did not go to a NON-IVY dental school.

I must also say that everything being equal on a CV a PD would consider school name as weight. Traditionally, schools like Harvard, Columbia, non ivy UCLA, UCSF, UConn produce students who are specialty driven and thus enter specialties at a greater percentage than other d-schools. Is this because these schools were highly selective of the top candidates, based on DAT and UG performance, thinking they will also do well in school and on boards for residency placement?.......most likely.

But I also agree, unless you graduated from both an Ivy and Non Ivy dental school, you have no basis for criticizing or comparing. Oh that pipeline you mention for feeding into programs? It exists, and for a reason.
Fair enough, I didnt go to any Ivy League School, so I shouldnt comment about their clinical opportunities. But this BS about these candidates being looked upon in a more favorable light is laughable. I understand their are a few Columbia grads at Emory. But did you get in there because of the stellar performance of your Columbia predecessors??? Are the Columbia Grads the best resdients at your program? Undoubtedly there are conversations that occur between PD's, and its not exclusive to some smug feathered hair Ivy Leaguer conversing to another smug featherd hair Ivy Leaguer. Louisville produces many oral surgeons, Iowa the same, Pacific also. I can go on and on.

I attended a State University (gasp), which has an excellent OMFS program. My letters were written by Surgeons who actually cut cases, rather than writing about people who cut cases in a retrospective article. They picked up the phone and called the places I was interested in and spoke on my behalf.

Warning Huge Generalization: You guys went to Denal School at an Ivy League Institution. Most of your professional colleagues at these institutions consider you all second class citizens. It's not like you went Wharton where certain financial firms will only hire from, or Yale Law School where only certain Law Firms will consider candidates.

Dental School is what you make of it, nobody comes beating down the doors of certain schools because of their graduates. Occasionally there may be a some insider stuff going on, but its not exclusive to Ivy League Institutions. There is only one legitimate pipeline in Oral Surgery, and it is the Mormon Pipeline. Look no further than the Mayo Clinic...I am still laughing about the "Oh that pipeline you mention for feeding into programs? It exists, and for a reason." Too Funny, too funny.
 

DREDAY

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Didn't 17-18 columbia students fail the NERB last year the first time around? That's what I heard...

Its funny how non-Ivies love to bash the Ivies, especially the ones who speak only from hearsay. I have met plenty of great non ivy dentists, and I have met equally plenty more who were not great from other schools. I went to Columbia and got a great clinical experience with a good variety of cases. On the other hand, I also had classmates who did not get a great clinical experience. This is probably TRUE in most dental schools, but I can't comment since I did not go to a NON-IVY dental school.

I must also say that everything being equal on a CV a PD would consider school name as weight. Traditionally, schools like Harvard, Columbia, non ivy UCLA, UCSF, UConn produce students who are specialty driven and thus enter specialties at a greater percentage than other d-schools. Is this because these schools were highly selective of the top candidates, based on DAT and UG performance, thinking they will also do well in school and on boards for residency placement?.......most likely.

But I also agree, unless you graduated from both an Ivy and Non Ivy dental school, you have no basis for criticizing or comparing. Oh that pipeline you mention for feeding into programs? It exists, and for a reason.
 

gary_ruska

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My letters were written by Surgeons who actually cut cases, rather than writing about people who cut cases in a retrospective article.
Gary "Home schooled" Ruska here,

Your entire post should be labelled as a generalization, since that's what it is...a generalization from anecdotal evidence (which is not to say that the logic behind the Ivy-league argument is robust either)...

GR does, however, take particular issue with the comment above. Most big programs write retrospective studies and it would ridiculous to suggest (as you do) that the people originally involved in the care of the patient are routinely excluded from the publication.

Second, retrospective studies are certainly not limited to the Ivy-leaguers - a significant portion of the OMFS literature is retrospective - a shortcoming no doubt, but certainly not one that is limited to Columbia, MGH/Harvard, UPenn or any of the other unholy Ivies. Case in point - a significant number of Ellis' papers are retrospective - would you suggest that he is simply writing about operations others have done?

GR does agree that too much stock is placed on an "Ivy-League" dental education. Though, having trained with (and now training) OMFS residents from Ivy-league schools, they are just like those from state schools - some are good, some are bad, some have egos, some do not.

In a time where the AMA is attacking OMFS, perhaps OMFS should be spending less time debating these relatively unimportant and ultimately inconsequential matters.
 

gujudentist

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wow, thanks for all the valued input, etc. A quick question about applications...do programs look at transcripts or just rank? The reason I ask is because as I alluded to on the first post, prostho lab made my rank drop about 7 spots; whereas i have a high 3.7/8 something in all my science/didactic courses. thanks.

a word about the ivies thing. Like someone on this thread stated, dental school does not work the same way as it does for business school or law school. I can attest to this because i went to undergrad where they had a top 5 business and law school and recruiting day literally shut down the streets and buildings of campus because it became a cluster-**** where employers would jump through hoops to get the best recruits.

in my opinion, in terms of matching, i dont think it makes much of a difference....roughly 20-30% of students match in specialities from every dental school (according to some ADA report). I know my dental school matched 100% of those who applied this year, mind you only a few broke the 90 mark on boards.
I don't think an 85 from an Ivy trumps a 90 from another school especially if the two are equals on every other level (ie. experiences, rank, etc) which is not the case for law or business. Ie. if you look at the websites for Bain capital, or some of the other heavy hitting management consulting groups, you may be able to find one or two individuals who are neither ivy nor a top-10 business/law grad.

However, I think the ivies do put much more weight and time on preparing for part I boards so maybe thats why it happens they have higher board averages. also, i think that penn only ranks their top 5 students and non-ranks everyone else, harvard doesnt rank, and im not sure what happens at columbia. non-rank is a blessing to have because as I was told by a resident who was an ivy-grad, he would have been an Aspen dental technician if they had showed his rank on paper despite having a 91 on boards.

so its not the name, its the ability for some of these programs to place less emphsis on pre-clniical experience and place emphasis on boards part I that maybe factors in.

I think at the end of the day it just comes down to numbers and experiences for programs like OMFS. Again, i know of a person from Penn who just studied and got a 95, but didn't match in omfs on 2 attempts, rejected from perio, and now is interning at an OMFS program somewhere.
 
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The media, our parents, grandparents (especially asian :laugh:), friends, employers, etc all highlight Ivy education. It is only natural that there is a bias towards these 'brands'. That is simply all it is, a brand.

A strong brand is anything that brings positive messages or images to the receivers mind that is typically not found with comparable products. Some institutions have this, and historically, it is how they survived.

I have undergrad classmates going to mba school now. I can name 10 of them and when they tell their plans to others, it's "I'm heading to business school next year". Except for 2 of them. They are already part of a brand. Wharton and Harvard. They say, "I'm going to harvard b-school next year".

It's a reality. And I'm not an Ivy. It has got to be VERY hard to select applicants for a rank list. If a peer has demontrated their excellent work ethic at harvard or columbia or uconn at the same level I did at my dds program, then I would guaranee he would get in over me. It is one more thing proving the ability to get stuff done. They don't know if I got into harvard or columia or uconn, they only know I didnt attend, and chose a state.

Also...the Ivy name gets tossed around too much. Is UConn even on that list? Harv, yale, those types...
 

shabu2

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Fair enough, I didnt go to any Ivy League School, so I shouldnt comment about their clinical opportunities. But this BS about these candidates being looked upon in a more favorable light is laughable. I understand their are a few Columbia grads at Emory. But did you get in there because of the stellar performance of your Columbia predecessors??? Are the Columbia Grads the best resdients at your program? Undoubtedly there are conversations that occur between PD's, and its not exclusive to some smug feathered hair Ivy Leaguer conversing to another smug featherd hair Ivy Leaguer. Louisville produces many oral surgeons, Iowa the same, Pacific also. I can go on and on.

I attended a State University (gasp), which has an excellent OMFS program. My letters were written by Surgeons who actually cut cases, rather than writing about people who cut cases in a retrospective article. They picked up the phone and called the places I was interested in and spoke on my behalf.

Warning Huge Generalization: You guys went to Denal School at an Ivy League Institution. Most of your professional colleagues at these institutions consider you all second class citizens. It's not like you went Wharton where certain financial firms will only hire from, or Yale Law School where only certain Law Firms will consider candidates.

Dental School is what you make of it, nobody comes beating down the doors of certain schools because of their graduates. Occasionally there may be a some insider stuff going on, but its not exclusive to Ivy League Institutions. There is only one legitimate pipeline in Oral Surgery, and it is the Mormon Pipeline. Look no further than the Mayo Clinic...I am still laughing about the "Oh that pipeline you mention for feeding into programs? It exists, and for a reason." Too Funny, too funny.
I am not trying to start a flaming here because I actually find your posts insightful.

I think you miss the point, a large number of grads from COMPETITIVE schools go into specialties because of the culture at these institutions. Not saying anything bad about state school as you can see from my references to UCLA, UCSF, and other strong state schools (UW, UMich, UConn, UMaryland, UT, etc). How many from your class went and matched into OMFS? In mine, 9/9 matched to 6-yr OMFS from a class of 74. Not that it matters, but I chose to attend Columbia because my wife always wanted to live in NYC, and the tuition was 10K/yr cheaper than NYU, not to mention living expenses is huge in the East Village. Different strokes for different folks.

I agree there is a Mormon connection, I guess if you are Mormon who went to Columbia, you would be a shoe-in;). I still argue at pretty much any major program in the country, there are Columbia grads, for a reason. Mayo is a great program, and I have nothing bad to say about the scope and attendings. If it wasn't for the freezing winters, I might have applied there too.

HUGE Generalization here, but I am pretty sure at any institution, dentists are second class citizens when compared to physicians, not only Ivies. ;)
 

shabu2

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Gary "Home schooled" Ruska here,

Your entire post should be labelled as a generalization, since that's what it is...a generalization from anecdotal evidence (which is not to say that the logic behind the Ivy-league argument is robust either)...

GR does, however, take particular issue with the comment above. Most big programs write retrospective studies and it would ridiculous to suggest (as you do) that the people originally involved in the care of the patient are routinely excluded from the publication.

Second, retrospective studies are certainly not limited to the Ivy-leaguers - a significant portion of the OMFS literature is retrospective - a shortcoming no doubt, but certainly not one that is limited to Columbia, MGH/Harvard, UPenn or any of the other unholy Ivies. Case in point - a significant number of Ellis' papers are retrospective - would you suggest that he is simply writing about operations others have done?

GR does agree that too much stock is placed on an "Ivy-League" dental education. Though, having trained with (and now training) OMFS residents from Ivy-league schools, they are just like those from state schools - some are good, some are bad, some have egos, some do not.

In a time where the AMA is attacking OMFS, perhaps OMFS should be spending less time debating these relatively unimportant and ultimately inconsequential matters.
shabu "loves Gary Ruska" 2,

Always spoken in the third person with fortune cookie -like wit. Love this guy!:thumbup:
 

gujudentist

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Hey everyone, this ivy/non-ivy thing has been interesting to read and even i put my input into it, however i was hoping to refocus the thread so hopefuls and residents and whoever else out there is willing to communicate can provide insight/input, etc.

I posted this earlier and got no responses:

A quick question about applications...do programs look at transcripts or just rank?

I have a pretty stellar science/academic gpa in dental school but pretty average preclinical gpa...i just wanted to see if they look at it that closely or if it all comes down to raw numbers such as rank (either they care or don't) and boards.