PhD/PsyD 2013-2014 internship match outcomes: Ph.D. and Psy.D.

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erg923 said:
As usual, psychologists makes something more complicated than it needs to be. Queries are answered on this board. Naïveté is given a dose of reality. Poor reasoning is slaped down as such. This is well accepted in other professions.
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I'm going to go to bed and hug my copy of "Why I Don't Attend Case Conferences."
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MCParent said:
As an aside, I find it both amusing and confusing when people reference my non-anonymity like that (that 4400, or whatever, guy who got banned did it a few times too). It always feels like it's supposed to be some kind of a threat (this "we know people in common" business), probably because of the one-sidedness of the anonymity. It's amusing because the assumption seems to be that I haven't said exactly what I say on this board to people in real life.
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No, not a threat, and you're absolutely right, it's neither here nor there who we know or don't know and irrelevant to the issue at hand ... I actually deleted that portion of my post as I was editing it, while you were referring to it.
 
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briarcliff said:
^ I think the post made about faculty being held accountable was in regards to faculty at FSPS exclusively, not university based PsyD programs - I'm not entirely sure where Erg taught, but that's not really the issue here.



^ I don't think you're giving undergrads & recent grads enough credit. When I first starting posting on these forums back in '11 (I was 18) I realized that there was a steep learning curve, and I posted some responses that definitely gave the impression that I was wildly misinformed (Anyone ever wonder why I'm a gold donor?), but I am grateful that I made these mistakes and came to terms with some of the harsher realities of the field on an anonymous forum rather than in a grad school interview or at a professional conference.

I think that, as a whole, career & academic advising for pre-clinical psych students is horrible (I know that in my experience it has been), but interacting with everyone on this forum and reading/participating in some of the more heated discussions has given me a thicker skin and has made me more confident in my decision to pursue a doctoral degree in clinical psychology.
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So much this. I think there's an opportunity to create options for students who aren't scientifically minded or achieving optimal GPAs, and who do want to help people (which I think is not a terrible thing to want to do -- also, some of them might have a talent for this, whether or not they can ace stats). They're naturally drawn to psychology, sure -- maybe they and their parents are not aware of other options, maybe they're first-generation students, maybe they're drawn to the idea of prestige and authority and don't have an in-depth understanding of their suitability for graduate study. I'm proud of my institution for working seriously with other departments and colleges to develop concurrent and post-BA programs that offer real value to local employers (not just cash-grab "certificates") and working just as hard to make 2nd and 3rd year students aware of them. I think there's an obligation to take all undergrads seriously.

My point is -- doing things like this is one way to do more than merely "stop the bottleneck", which I do think should probably happen at the undergraduate level. It's fine to say, "nope no room here", but then what, for the students? It's not like they can just go to law school anymore.

note: sorry, I've veered quite a ways from PsyD vs PhD issues; I'm thinking more about B and C students, now, and a bit about higher ed in general. Last word on this: I think psych students who by 2nd year are clearly not on track for grad school can benefit from studying the subject in some capacity (perhaps as a minor, or as part of another program with more applied content) but should be identified for further advisement as a matter of course. With things the way they are, advising should be a top priority. And departments happy to take these students' tuition should develop solid alternatives for them.
 
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Free standing professional school.
 
Ahhhh! so much more helpful than google.
 
Sorry for resurrecting an older thread, but it brought up some questions that I had...
Some folks say that Psy.D. programs are diluting the profession, taking away internships, taking unpaid post docs, etc. But isn't the profession self correcting? If a Psy. D. student gets matched to an APA internship, isn't this an indication that the internship program felt that they were the most qualified, even more qualified than any Ph.D. student that didn't get matched? It's not as if Psy.D. students are getting paid less than Ph.D. students. So if a Psy. D. student is qualified and gets matched, how is this detrimental?
As far as unpaid post docs...do you believe that if folks didn't take these positions, these post docs would suddenly start paying, or they would just cut the post docs?
How about those who do not get APA internships, or online students, or those who take less money upon licensure...do they really take professional positions from those with the internships and fellowships?

I can't wait to hear your thoughts....I am learning a lot on this board!
 
You asked a similar question that was answered in another thread.

And I don't ever recall anyone on here crying that psyd are "taking jobs away" from us PhDs. Thus isn't an immigration issue. I do recall discussion about market saturation and, from a economics prospective, what over suppy does to salaries over time.
 
A similar question to be sure....this is more asking if it people's experience that the best candidates receive the best positions regardless of degree.
As far as market saturation....are less qualified candidates really over saturating the market? Are they driving down salaries or reimbursements? Are they going to be getting referrals or are the going to be the equivalent of the so called "ambulance chasers" in the over saturated law professions? As a matter of fact, if that is a good analogy, it certainly makes it more clear to me and I can certainly see more clearly what other people have been saying!
 
No. And that's not unique to this profession, obviously.

In California, yes. Other areas? Maybe, don't know.
 
Thanks for your replies erg.....it may take me awhile, but with enough information, it tends to sink in!

I guess I am just naive and always thought it was quality over quantity. It kinda shakes my world view a bit. Have you experienced lesser candidates somehow receiving APA internships that they were not qualified for? The thought is certainly disquieting!
 
What exactly is your worldview?
 
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Like I have said before, I come from a surgical background where the cream tended to rise to the top and ability won out....I guess I mistakenly assumed the same was true for psychology....
 
Lol. My guess is you don't pay too much attention to politics, history, business, entertainment, etc.

Suffice to say that P-diddy ain't "the cream of the crop",,,,know what I mean?
 
Lol....yeah....now I feel kinda foolish...guess wanting to help people doesn't automatically confer nobility of purpose.....
 
RGCT and the Robbers Cave study by Sherif may provide some explanation for the hostility between PhD and PsyD, APA vs Non-APA, MD and DO. You would not think grown ups would restrict or simplify attitudes by black or white or maintain that APA accredited internship selection or EPPP pass rate provides justification of quality of programs. In 2014, Diversity is valued but this was not how things worked in the 70's when PsyD programs were approved.

Because of the scarcity of internships and competition for resources, in-group fighting and hostility is more common. All of my supervisors in practicums and internships were PhD trained psychologists who were objective enough to realize the flaws of the PhD model. Rarely will practicing psychologists engage in applied research after their dissertation unless they are working in academia.

I guess the primary utility of having these types of threads may be self serving methods of justifying one's programs when in reality there are more commonalities than differences among programs.




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OneNeuroDoctor said:
RGCT and the Robbers Cave study by Sherif may provide some explanation for the hostility between PhD and PsyD, APA vs Non-APA, MD and DO. You would not think grown ups would restrict or simplify attitudes by black or white or maintain that APA accredited internship selection or EPPP pass rate provides justification of quality of programs. In 2014, Diversity is valued but this was not how things worked in the 70's when PsyD programs were approved.

Because of the scarcity of internships and competition for resources, in-group fighting and hostility is more common. All of my supervisors in practicums and internships were PhD trained psychologists who were objective enough to realize the flaws of the PhD model. Rarely will practicing psychologists engage in applied research after their dissertation unless they are working in academia.

I guess the primary utility of having these types of threads may be self serving methods of justifying one's programs when in reality there are more commonalities than differences among programs.




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Well said. My mentor shares the same beliefs. He came from a prestigious Ph.D. program and was mentored by Nelson Butters among others, yet he believes the Psy.D. holds a special and important place in society. He has even recommended it to me, and not just the typical Rutgers, Baylor.
 
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Jon Snow said:
"A similar question to be sure....this is more asking if it people's experience that the best candidates receive the best positions regardless of degree. "

In my experience, no. At the internship level, you now have some penetration of payd types in apa internships rating candidates. This creates political issues in the internships as to what criteria are "fair" in eliminating students from consideration. Also, I think probably unbeknownst to the sites, they setup criteria in a way that actual works against people from better programs (giving points for GPAs, equally waiting gpa and publication history, paying no attention to program type or institution).
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Most internship selection committee strive to be objective in the selection process. My guess is most of the APA accredited sites eliminate students from non APA accredited programs and some eliminate PsyD candidates, regardless of being from APA accredited programs. So, naturally the match rate would show decreased % match rate for PsyD.

Internship sites frequently have 50 to 100 applicants with similarly highly ranked profiles so typically decisions are made based on subjective information.

Some seem to believe the whole internship process is broken and need to be thrown out and reinvented somehow. Many believe, internships should be completed locally as now most of us have to uproot for one year and then return the next year.

Would it make more sense to have each program have their own dedicated internship local system? Hence, non APA accredited programs would have non accredited internships until they became APA accredited. Everyone would complete their internship and no delay graduation. Then, for postdoctoral residency, people would have the option to move away and specialize after they have graduated with the doctoral degree.


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OneNeuroDoctor said:
Most internship selection committee strive to be objective in the selection process. My guess is most of the APA accredited sites eliminate students from non APA accredited programs and some eliminate PsyD candidates, regardless of being from APA accredited programs. So, naturally the match rate would show decreased % match rate for PsyD.
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You think a vast conspiracy is a more likely reason for this than that if a program takes 50 students a year, many of those students will be of weaker quality than programs that take 5?

Some seem to believe the whole internship process is broken and need to be thrown out and reinvented somehow. Many believe, interns should be completed locally as now most of us have to uproot for one year and then return the next year.

Would it make more sense to have each program have their own dedicated internship local system? Hence, non APA accredited programs would have non accredited internships until they became APA accredited.
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As John Williamson and I demonstrated in our paper, the bulk of the problem is the responsibility of a minority of programs that abuse the system and take far more students than the system can handle and more than they can match. Why is it the responsibility of programs that have not abused the system, and have maintained strong match rates for decades, to pick up after those programs have **** all over everything?
 
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MCParent said:
You think a vast conspiracy is a more likely reason for this than that if a program takes 50 students a year, many of those students will be of weaker quality than programs that take 5?



As John Williamson and I demonstrated in our paper, the bulk of the problem is the responsibility of a minority of programs that abuse the system and take far more students than the system can handle and more than they can match. Why is it the responsibility of programs that have not abused the system, and have maintained strong match rates for decades, to pick up after those programs have **** all over everything?
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In reviewing types of programs, much more is involved in determining quality than looking at PhD vs PsyD.
It is not an apples vs oranges comparison. These programs and students are competing for resources, students, and funding. If the FSPS had their own internships for their students, this would reduce the shortage of internships. A good number of FSPS have adopted this model. If you value the competition model in the free world, the university based PhD programs have a shared responsibility or blame due to restricting their admissions and not adequately preparing some of their students in internship application as from what you claim, inferior students are getting their APA accredited internship slots.

I guess you included new PhD programs in your study, since there are probably as many or more PhD programs opening up every year as there are PsyD programs.

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I don't think the in-group vs out-group explains it at all. That's just a convenient excuse. It's the idea that you need certain things to be a competent clinician, things that the large diploma mills do not offer. Yes there are a handful of good PsyD programs. It's just too bad that they have been far outweighed by their Argosy/Alliant/Fielding brethren. In theory, the PsyD makes sense. In reality, it has made our field worse.
 
First, whether or not one"engages in applied research" is a reductionist way of thinking about the training model issue... and one we try hard to dispel here on SDN. If that's how you still think about it, then you do don't really get it. I don't know what else to say.

Second, I just plain disagree. Lots of positions essentially require one to be a scientist-practitioner. My VA position does (the largest single employer of psychologists in the world). Its even part of my annual performance eval. Many hospital based positions do. Many blended admin or coordinator positions do.
 
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Hmmm... I think there is value in both models rather than having a view point of one training program being better or worse or superior or inferior. VA certainly has employed many PsyD throughout the years, so VA must have acceptance of the PsyD training model. Certainly, psychologist with PsyD are allowed to engage in applied research with the VA or do you have to have a PhD to engage in applied research with the VA? I even know a number of PsyD trained psychologist who are neuropsychologist with the VA as well as Clinical Training Director for VA internship and postdoctoral programs. VA values diversity of training models and normally has stepped up to the plate as exemplary training for many psychologists.
 
There may be some out there, but I have yet to see a PsyD do research at the VA's I've worked at. I think the greatest concentration I see is in C&P number-wise.

Are there quality PsyD training programs? Yes. Are they the small minority in a field of garbage training? Yes.
 
WisNeuro said:
There may be some out there, but I have yet to see a PsyD do research at the VA's I've worked at. I think the greatest concentration I see is in C&P number-wise.

Are there quality PsyD training programs? Yes. Are they the small minority in a field of garbage training? Yes.
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I was looking at the VA website in the state I currently live in and there are psychologist with PsyD degree from Georgia School of Professional Psychology and from the Forrest Institute of Professional Psychology. I looked at the VA website in the two other states bordering my current state and found a number of PsyD working at these VA. If you are working at a VA now surely there are people with PsyD working at your VA. Certainly you have meetings together and you consult with each other over cases. Have you talked to the PsyD at your VA about their experiences in their training? We were talking about the BOP in another thread so I looked at these websites and discovered a number of PsyD working at the BOP and some were from Texas School of Professional Psychology, Fielding, Seattle Pacific, and Indiana State University PsyD programs. Surely, you are aware of the large number of PsyD employed by the VA or is it just in these three states that the VA employees PsyD's? So you are claiming that the PsyD's at the VA and BOP from Argosy, Alliant, and Fielding were not deserving of working at the VA due to being from "garbage training?"
 
Note that I specified "doing research." We do have PsyD's, but none that I know of from the diploma mills. And, I don't think the majority of people from Argosy/Alliant/Fielding type places deserve to work with actual patients period.
 
WisNeuro said:
Note that I specified "doing research." We do have PsyD's, but none that I know of from the diploma mills. And, I don't think the majority of people from Argosy/Alliant/Fielding type places deserve to work with actual patients period.
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The Psychologist on the websites that work at the VA who have the PsyD are from Argosy, Pacific, Indiana State, Regent, Forrest, Alliant, St. Thomas, and Nova, that I have found. Well, are you calling your colleagues as being from garbage programs? If you go through each of the VA website psychology web pages it is common to see PsyD as psychologist. Fielding is a PhD program so it must be okay :)

Amazing, some of the PsyD's are the internship training director in the VA.
Maybe PhD trained psychologists in the VA would gain insight via looking at their own house before grouping these PsyD programs with such negative labels as you may be offending your own colleagues who you have hired to responsible VA positions. Surely you respect fellow staff regardless of training models. All of the psychology predoctoral and postdoctoral training programs with all of theses VA sites emphases diversity and broad based training.




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OneNeuroDoctor said:
The Psychologist on the websites that work at the VA who have the PsyD are from Argosy, Pacific, Indiana State, Regent, Forrest, Alliant, St. Thomas, and Nova, that I have found. Well, are you calling your colleagues as being from garbage programs? If you go through each of the VA website psychology web pages it is common to see PsyD as psychologist. Fielding is a PhD program so it must be okay :)

Amazing, some of the PsyD's are the internship training director in the VA.
Maybe PhD trained psychologists in the VA would gain insight via looking at their own house before grouping these PsyD programs with such negative labels as you may be offending your own colleagues who you have hired to responsible VA positions. Surely you respect fellow staff regardless of training models. All of the psychology predoctoral and postdoctoral training programs with all of theses VA sites emphases diversity and broad based training.




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Just to speak to the bolded portion: no, I don't respect someone solely because they're staff. I certainly start out respecting folks regardless, giving them the benefit of the doubt that they're competent, responsible, and have their patients' best interests in mind. But I don't respect folks simply and automatically because they work with me. And there are certainly VA clinicians (just like in any other large institution) who do things with which I disagree, and/or that practice in ways which I would not. VAs can vary WIDELY from hospital to hospital, particularly when it comes to mental health departments.
 
LOL "The VA" could could give a **** about the training model. Trust me. The service chiefs who hire you often do though. Sometimes they are biased. Sometimes not. Hence why you see some VAs with all Ph.D staff (where I interned, for example) and ones that are more balanced (my current employer).

The point is, I think your harped on the degree issue much more than I did here. My point wa to correct the notion that one degree is about doing research and researchy stuff and the other isn't...and that if you dont do any "applied research" that the differences between the degrees in the workplace are moot. They are not.

I was also challenging the notion that many psychologist do not engage in scholarly pursuits/activities post degree. They do. Just because you aren't publishing in high IF journals, or even publishing does not mean you aren't doing research.
 
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OneNeuroDoctor, you are equating all PsyD schools into one. I'm sure you are also offending the PsyD's who came from reputable institutions with that thinking. A Rutgers/Baylor/Etc PsyD is not the same as an Alliant/Argosy/Fielding PsyD.
 
WisNeuro said:
OneNeuroDoctor, you are equating all PsyD schools into one. I'm sure you are also offending the PsyD's who came from reputable institutions with that thinking. A Rutgers/Baylor/Etc PsyD is not the same as an Alliant/Argosy/Fielding PsyD.
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Yes... Such generalization can go both ways. It you are not aware of your own bias you could be missing out on the strengths and weaknesses of each training model.

Realistically, there are PhD programs that have a less than desirable APA match % and EPPP pass rate. So, are these considered "garbage programs?"

Peace all... Happy Father's Day!! Let the in-group sparring rest for a day and spend it with your family and children. PsyD programs are here to stay as evident in all of the PsyD graduates being a positive influence for the agencies and patients they serve.


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They are both the same model in the programs I mentioned. One group just does it the right way and the other takes people's money and gives them ****ty training.

And yes, if a PhD program had a very low match and pass rate, there is probably something very wrong with that program and I would not take students from that program as an intern and/or postdoc. You will find though, that the % of those programs are the minority of PhD programs, whereas low match and pass rates are the norm in PsyD.
 
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