2013-2014 Pre-interview Thread

[Nasrudin]

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Hey all. I am getting so much from reading through the archives. It really helped shape up my application list. Purple Rain's thread of this title helped me think about overall numbers and probabilities via the outcomes charting links.

So hopefully people can find useful app list and other psych-specific ERAS advice here.

 

[Nasrudin]

I suppose I'll start. I'm looking for input into my app list given the following:

US MD. Step 1 in the 200 to 215 range. Passed CS. Taking CK next month. H in psych and a few other honors in a pile of passes. Most would probably be high pass but my school doesn't have that. Strong LOR's that help demonstrate a well-developed interest in psych. I have long varied work hx before med school.

My locations, if they seem snooty, are taking into consideration my SO's contacts and career.

California:
All except Kern. Merle can play and all but I can't do Bakersfield. Not sure how excited I am about Southern California. I like walking cities.

Further up:
UW Seattle, OHSU

NYC:
All the AE affiliate programs, Mount Sinai, Cornell, Columbia, LIJ, St Luke's

Conn/RI/NH:
Brown, Dartmouth, Yale,

Boston:
Tuft's, BU, Cambridge

My home school as a safety: my psych attending said he would do what it takes to get my a spot there if I want it.


30 in total. High if I was a more competitive applicant, but does it seem right for me? More? Kind of batting above my weight, so I am trying to balance that by taking lots of shots at my preferred locations.

Thanks to my predecessors for their info. I'll be beating back my fears of privacy during this season to provide what you've given me in kind.

Another thing that kind of makes me scratch my head is how people don't apply to NYC for economic reasons. Where else do you get subsidized housing, a high salary, with plenty of opportunity for your SO to make money doing what she wants?

The economic scale weighs heavily into my calculus which is why it confuses me to have arrived at the opposite conclusion as some of those before me. For example at USC you have all the rent, none of the salary, and no subsidy. What am I missing?

 

[NYCMS2]

Another thing that kind of makes me scratch my head is how people don't apply to NYC for economic reasons. Where else do you get subsidized housing, a high salary, with plenty of opportunity for your SO to make money doing what she wants?

The economic scale weighs heavily into my calculus which is why it confuses me to have arrived at the opposite conclusion as some of those before me. For example at USC you have all the rent, none of the salary, and no subsidy. What am I missing?

With subsidized housing, NYC compares favorably cost-wise especially considering you neither want or need a car. But living quarters are cramped, and that gets old...and without a guaranteed subsidized housing deal, NYC is a miserable place (I know people who had to find market rate apartments for their Big 4 residency and they tell me that it eats up the vast majority of their take home pay, so beware "guarantees" are not always guaranteed).

It goes beyond economics: NYT is a throbbing, noisy 24/7 place - it is difficult to escape - every time you go out that front door, you are slammed in the face with NYC, warts and all. And that takes its toll on some people more than others, and until you have lived it (not just visited it over a fun-filled weekend, but LIVED it), you may be in for a rude awakening.

I agree that economics are playing a big role in my apps, along with my other pet issue (minimal car needs). Some places just cost too much to live, no matter how great the program.

 

[Nasrudin]

With subsidized housing, NYC compares favorably cost-wise especially considering you neither want or need a car. But living quarters are cramped, and that gets old...and without a guaranteed subsidized housing deal, NYC is a miserable place (I know people who had to find market rate apartments for their Big 4 residency and they tell me that it eats up the vast majority of their take home pay, so beware "guarantees" are not always guaranteed).

It goes beyond economics: NYT is a throbbing, noisy 24/7 place - it is difficult to escape - every time you go out that front door, you are slammed in the face with NYC, warts and all. And that takes its toll on some people more than others, and until you have lived it (not just visited it over a fun-filled weekend, but LIVED it), you may be in for a rude awakening.

I agree that economics are playing a big role in my apps, along with my other pet issue (minimal car needs). Some places just cost too much to live, no matter how great the program.

Wow. My whole premise is based on the fact that if a program advertises subsidized housing that it was factual. If it says lottery or something similar then I consider that as a "no" and then the economics slide quickly into the untenable or at least the undesirable.

I'm not sure how to incorporate the veracity of what you're saying into my applications.

Which programs are you referring to? NYU, Cornell, Columbia, and what's the fourth of the big 4?

Otherwise, I do have doubts along what your saying. And have other options on my list because of that. I can see myself going the other direction and going rural with good benefits and cheap rent. But I need to interview in NYC and see for myself. It's one of the epicenters of activity for my wife's career. How important that is to both of us will come into play during the rank list composition.

 

[shan564]

In NYC, you get about $10k/year more, and you pay about $10k/year more in rent. In St. Louis, I've been able to buy a house in the best part of town for less than what I'd pay to rent a studio in Manhattan at the subsidized rate. Plus, everything else is more expensive in NYC too... food, utilities, etc.

I guess it depends on what your SO does. NYC has more jobs, but also more applicants. I'm single, so it hasn't been a concern for me... but most of my co-residents have SOs who have been able to find good jobs in St. Louis.

According to this random cost-of-living calculator:
http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/
To live at the same standard as $50k in St. Louis, you'd have to earn $120k in Manhattan or $95k in Brooklyn.

 

[NYCMS2]

Mount Sinai would be #4 of the Big 4...just get the guarantees in writing, but not sure what good that does you when they tell you there is no room at the inn.

 

[shan564]

Otherwise, I do have doubts along what your saying. And have other options on my list because of that. I can see myself going the other direction and going rural with good benefits and cheap rent. But I need to interview in NYC and see for myself. It's one of the epicenters of activity for my wife's career. How important that is to both of us will come into play during the rank list composition.

You don't have to go rural to get cheap rent! There's a vast nation in between the two coasts! And there are great programs in Indianapolis, St. Louis, Houston, Dallas, Nashville... and those cities are much more urban than a lot of coast people realize.

 

[Nasrudin]

You don't have to go rural to get cheap rent! There's a vast nation in between the two coasts! And there are great programs in Indianapolis, St. Louis, Houston, Dallas, Nashville... and those cities are much more urban than a lot of coast people realize.

I've been around. And I know what's out there. There's a lot of reasons why the places you mention don't interest me, only a few of which are typical, as is being implied in your post. But that's a discussion on American cultural geography and not one of strategy, which is what I'm hoping to get after here.

I need technical advice. Too few programs.... You don't have a prayer at that place... Your wasting money here... you need to add more of this level of program.... Or as the other poster wised me up to the fact that programs might say one thing and deliver another...this type of thing.

When I meant rural. I meant relative to coastal metropolises. But I am interested in rural California. If I have to explain the difference between that and Dixie this is not the venue.

 

[SmallBird]

I've been around. And I know what's out there. There's a lot of reasons why the places you mention don't interest me, only a few of which are typical, as is being implied in your post. But that's a discussion on American cultural geography and not one of strategy, which is what I'm hoping to get after here.

I need technical advice. Too few programs.... You don't have a prayer at that place... Your wasting money here... you need to add more of this level of program.... Or as the other poster wised me up to the fact that programs might say one thing and deliver another...this type of thing.

When I meant rural. I meant relative to coastal metropolises. But I am interested in rural California. If I have to explain the difference between that and Dixie this is not the venue.

Another program theat would be in the middle to lower end of your current list in that geographic area is UConn. I don't know much about it other than that the graduates are good psychiatrists, which is encouraging!

 

[Nasrudin]

Another program theat would be in the middle to lower end of your current list in that geographic area is UConn. I don't know much about it other than that the graduates are good psychiatrists, which is encouraging!

Thanks. I'll add it.

 

[Dharma]

Nyc taxes and cost of doing everything outside of rent costs more

Hopefully you don't interview like you post...boom shaka laka

That's what the outer boroughs are for 😉 Ain't nothing cheaper than Chinatowns (multiple) grocery shopping! (And there are Chinatowns all over place). Plus awesome dive bars, street food, and free entertainment, one can get by without dropping TOO much of their hard earn dough. Just have to know where to go and where to look (i.e. most likely not Manhattan and if so, go up-up-uptown). Rent still sort of boots almost anywhere in the city though. That said, there isn't a place like NYC in the world. Worth the price for at least a slice of one's existence IMO.

 

[Dharma]

It goes beyond economics: NYT is a throbbing, noisy 24/7 place - it is difficult to escape - every time you go out that front door, you are slammed in the face with NYC, warts and all. And that takes its toll on some people more than others, and until you have lived it (not just visited it over a fun-filled weekend, but LIVED it), you may be in for a rude awakening.

That's a NYer talking. Could not agree more. Until you lived it, you won't really know what it's all about and whether you love it or hate it. And usually folks fall into one of those two camps. That's why you just have to dive in and give it a go!

"To live in this town, you must be tough, tough, tough, tough, tough..."

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oaO6rpPwUA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[PhinyGage]

I grew up about 3 1/2 hours from NYC. I'm fairly familiar with the lifestyle.

Trust that the people who are there are not fickle about it, they WANT TO be there! There is no passive transitioning to NYC living, it will not fall into your lap. For some, every day involves insurmountable stress. There is no doubt that 50-70k is a poor man's salary in Manhattan. If that's your thing (during residency) then go for it. Historically, however, the residents that seem to be the happiest are those that are VERY familiar with the area and/or have significant networks that will make the transition easier.

FYI: From what I understand, only 1 of the "Big 4" will guarantee housing for incoming residents, and that's Mt Sinai. NYU does not have any housing (but pays about 12-14k more) and Columbia and Cornell are very iffy at most. The going rate is about 1400/month for about 350-400 sq ft studios under the subsidized rate. That is not made for 2 people so count on more if you bring your wife (hehe).

I liked several of the NY programs. However, I could not bring myself to spend most of my salary to live there when our economy is in big trouble and I have 200k in student loans.

I flew south and settled smack dab in the most bustling part of this HUGE city. My backyard is basically "Central Park" and I'm able to save even during residency. 54K here is definitely about 130k in NYC.

If you do not wish to own a car, check out Boston, DC and Chicago programs. Philly would also work with a little strategic planning. If your wife is good, she'll be able to find a job almost anywhere.

 

[Nasrudin]

I grew up about 3 1/2 hours from NYC. I'm fairly familiar with the lifestyle.

Trust that the people who are there are not fickle about it, they WANT TO be there! There is no passive transitioning to NYC living, it will not fall into your lap. For some, every day involves insurmountable stress. There is no doubt that 50-70k is a poor man's salary in Manhattan. If that's your thing (during residency) then go for it. Historically, however, the residents that seem to be the happiest are those that are VERY familiar with the area and/or have significant networks that will make the transition easier.

FYI: From what I understand, only 1 of the "Big 4" will guarantee housing for incoming residents, and that's Mt Sinai. NYU does not have any housing (but pays about 12-14k more) and Columbia and Cornell are very iffy at most. The going rate is about 1400/month for about 350-400 sq ft studios under the subsidized rate. That is not made for 2 people so count on more if you bring your wife (hehe).

I liked several of the NY programs. However, I could not bring myself to spend most of my salary to live there when our economy is in big trouble and I have 200k in student loans.

I flew south and settled smack dab in the most bustling part of this HUGE city. My backyard is basically "Central Park" and I'm able to save even during residency. 54K here is definitely about 130k in NYC.

If you do not wish to own a car, check out Boston, DC and Chicago programs. Philly would also work with a little strategic planning. If your wife is good, she'll be able to find a job almost anywhere.

Yeah. I dropped all of the top programs from my list but Sinai for that reason and added some southwest programs.

I'm not going to live in the southeast or the midatlantic or the Midwest, if i can help it. There's no way to make it a polite notion to those who love these areas. I wish them well. And there are clearly advantages. But it's not about being good. It's about access. And about culture. If it was just me I'd be in the west only somewhere rural or urban south to north. But I also like urban living. Lived in DC and Boston but not NYC. If I can get some interviews at places with garanteed housing I'll go and feel it out. Rank accordingly and take my chances where I get them. I also added Vermont. So I have a pretty wide selection in the NE besides NYC. But I appreciate the insight on living there. I get that it would certainly be easier for locals with networks of contacts and such. We'll see. I moved to San Francisco in the dot com era with nothing. I'm older now and not wanting to repeat certain struggles. So I feel where you're coming from. But am also balancing a lot of things that are not on topic for a thread I was hoping would be helpful for other people besides me. But purple rain's thread seemed to be more of a useful multi-party conversation. Idk?

In any case I'll write detailed reviews of my Interviews and if anybody has any more thoughts now or then I welcome them.

But my files on the midatlantic and the southeast are full from childhood onward and I have what I need to know that I'd rather try my luck elsewhere for better or worse. But thanks.

 

[Nasrudin]

That's a NYer talking. Could not agree more. Until you lived it, you won't really know what it's all about and whether you love it or hate it. And usually folks fall into one of those two camps. That's why you just have to dive in and give it a go!

"To live in this town, you must be tough, tough, tough, tough, tough..."

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oaO6rpPwUA[/YOUTUBE]

Thanks. Nice counterpoint.

 

[deleted452516]

I was hoping would be helpful for other people besides me. But purple rain's thread seemed to be more of a useful multi-party conversation.

Last year there was an awesome cohort of applicants going through the process with me posting or just lurking or whatever. I'd definitely encourage some other people to post up some of the programs/ regions they are interested in. I assure you no one is going to steal your ideas. Plus there are a ton of folks here who can give some advice about programs that might not be on your radar yet- or even places that you might want to give a miss.

Anyway, to comment on your list Nasrudin- it looks great, I applied in a similar region last year and there are tons of programs- you will definitely find at least one that is right for you. Might I suggest the Institute of Living in Connecticut? It isn't a super prestigious place but I liked what they have going on there. Plus their goodie bag was really sweet- it included multiple full size candy bars.

In my experience this forum has a lot of strong opinions about NYC, ultimately if people like it they will apply there and rank the programs, and if they don't, they won't. There is little utility in people complaining about how expensive it is or how much they hate alternate side parking.

But re housing in NYC programs- my only addition would be that NYU does have some housing available- but it is subsidized (not free) and not everyone gets it- people coming from far away get priority.

 

[JourneyAgent]

edit

 

[Nasrudin]

Last year there was an awesome cohort of applicants going through the process with me posting or just lurking or whatever. I'd definitely encourage some other people to post up some of the programs/ regions they are interested in. I assure you no one is going to steal your ideas. Plus there are a ton of folks here who can give some advice about programs that might not be on your radar yet- or even places that you might want to give a miss.

Anyway, to comment on your list Nasrudin- it looks great, I applied in a similar region last year and there are tons of programs- you will definitely find at least one that is right for you. Might I suggest the Institute of Living in Connecticut? It isn't a super prestigious place but I liked what they have going on there. Plus their goodie bag was really sweet- it included multiple full size candy bars.

In my experience this forum has a lot of strong opinions about NYC, ultimately if people like it they will apply there and rank the programs, and if they don't, they won't. There is little utility in people complaining about how expensive it is or how much they hate alternate side parking.

But re housing in NYC programs- my only addition would be that NYU does have some housing available- but it is subsidized (not free) and not everyone gets it- people coming from far away get priority.

Thanks. You're reviews and thread really helped me think about my list in detail. I was trying to decide about the other Connecticut programs besides Yale but couldn't find much information on them. I'll take another look at that program, appreciate everything. NYU is out of my league, I think, and I needed to round out my list with more middle programs for cost effectiveness. So... decisions, decisions. Thanks again.

 

[Daedra22]

I don't know that I need much advice, but I'll put this out there on Purple Rain's advice since I'm among the class of 2014'ers going into psych. 🙂 Also, I found it helpful to follow other people last year and watch where they ended up, so maybe I can help someone out in the internet lands too.

I'm a DO student with above average COMLEX scores, pretty solid (but not stellar) grades in the preclinical years, decent extra curriculars/research, and very good clinical comments/LORs (my school doesn't have honors, so comments are the only reflection of my work in 3rd year). No red flags on my record that I can think of - my only weak(ish) feature is that I didn't take the USMLE.

I am applying primarily to the west coast including UW (both Seattle and Idaho tracks), OHSU, UC-Davis, UCSD, UC Irvine, USC, UCLA-Harbor, UCLA-Kern, UCSF-Fresno, Visalia's new program, University of Nevada-Reno, and UCSF (total longshot). I'm also applying to the AOA program in Corvallis, Oregon.

Outside of the western states I'm putting apps in at U Hawaii, U Wisconsin-Madison, Michigan State, and University of Vermont, along with a few others that I may have forgotten to list.

Huge factors for where I'm applying (outside of looking for good training with nice people) are culture and weather. I'm a Norcal native who spent 5 years in the south and is so ready to be done with 100 degree summers. I have some hot spots on my list in California only because I'm familiar with Cali and I know a lot of people there. I think my list has ~20-25 programs on it.

If anyone has suggestions I'd be happy to hear them. Exciting times.

 

[Nasrudin]

I don't know that I need much advice, but I'll put this out there on Purple Rain's advice since I'm among the class of 2014'ers going into psych. 🙂 Also, I found it helpful to follow other people last year and watch where they ended up, so maybe I can help someone out in the internet lands too.

I'm a DO student with above average COMLEX scores, pretty solid (but not stellar) grades in the preclinical years, decent extra curriculars/research, and very good clinical comments/LORs (my school doesn't have honors, so comments are the only reflection of my work in 3rd year). No red flags on my record that I can think of - my only weak(ish) feature is that I didn't take the USMLE.

I am applying primarily to the west coast including UW (both Seattle and Idaho tracks), OHSU, UC-Davis, UCSD, UC Irvine, USC, UCLA-Harbor, UCLA-Kern, UCSF-Fresno, Visalia's new program, University of Nevada-Reno, and UCSF (total longshot). I'm also applying to the AOA program in Corvallis, Oregon.

Outside of the western states I'm putting apps in at U Hawaii, U Wisconsin-Madison, Michigan State, and University of Vermont, along with a few others that I may have forgotten to list.

Huge factors for where I'm applying (outside of looking for good training with nice people) are culture and weather. I'm a Norcal native who spent 5 years in the south and is so ready to be done with 100 degree summers. I have some hot spots on my list in California only because I'm familiar with Cali and I know a lot of people there. I think my list has ~20-25 programs on it.

If anyone has suggestions I'd be happy to hear them. Exciting times.

Cool. Best of luck.

UNM seems to be a SW gem from our predecessors' praises. Not a bad little flight back to see your folks. I couldn't figure out any strong reason to apply to the Arizona Programs, idk? I put Austin on my list for a kind of Texas hippie oasis.

I'm applying heavy to your locations too. I like it out there a lot. Too much. How did you decide on your number of schools? I kind of feel like I'm sitting down to a card game where I don't have a clue how it's played or if my hand is good or if it stinks. I tend to be conservative about these things and am applying to 30 schools or so. But to tell you the truth I don't even have a feel for some of their locations. I'm only confident that I like half or so of them ahead of time. Based on location largely and some reasonable data that says they're run well.

So I really don't know what I'm doing with half my list. I've never even been to Vermont. I really don't know how to schedule or how to manage my situation going forward either. Like, what's the etiquette of putting things that you might want to cancel later if you get more interviews than you thought...and this type of thing. I'm not at all sure about these things.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Huge factors for where I'm applying (outside of looking for good training with nice people) are culture and weather. I'm a Norcal native who spent 5 years in the south and is so ready to be done with 100 degree summers. I have some hot spots on my list in California only because I'm familiar with Cali and I know a lot of people there. I think my list has ~20-25 programs on it...

UC-Davis and UCLA-Harbor are my top two picks in Cali for primo primo good training with great culture and nice people all around. These are places you want to work. UCLA-NPI not so much, and UCSF... hmm. In fact, I heard that a first year resident quit the program at UCLA-NPI this year 😱

UCSD and UCI have mixed reviews from residents about the work culture. But both offer solid training.

There's no such thing as an easy ticket into any of the UC residencies. There's just way too many applicants each year. Getting an interview is great, but they may interview 70 or 80 students for 5 or 10 spots, and that's after screening out several hundred applications to speak in general terms.

 

[Daedra22]

Cool. Best of luck.

UNM seems to be a SW gem from our predecessors' praises. Not a bad little flight back to see your folks. I couldn't figure out any strong reason to apply to the Arizona Programs, idk? I put Austin on my list for a kind of Texas hippie oasis.

I'm applying heavy to your locations too. I like it out there a lot. Too much. How did you decide on your number of schools? I kind of feel like I'm sitting down to a card game where I don't have a clue how it's played or if my hand is good or if it stinks. I tend to be conservative about these things and am applying to 30 schools or so. But to tell you the truth I don't even have a feel for some of their locations. I'm only confident that I like half or so of them ahead of time. Based on location largely and some reasonable data that says they're run well.

So I really don't know what I'm doing with half my list. I've never even been to Vermont. I really don't know how to schedule or how to manage my situation going forward either. Like, what's the etiquette of putting things that you might want to cancel later if you get more interviews than you thought...and this type of thing. I'm not at all sure about these things.

I decided on my number by talking to some other people with similar stats to me both on the forums and in real life. I ran into an intern on one of my aways who is practically my twin in numbers and EC's, and he applied to 30 and got way more interviews than he could go on... I figured I should *probably* be good with 20-25, then? Like you, I'm also not sure if I'm being too conservative on my number. I'm really hoping to get 10 interviews, if I can, so I might add a few more programs before the 15th when ERAS opens. I'm also considering putting Austin on the list, but I'm not a huge fan of Texas as a state. Then again, I'd rather match in Austin than SOAP somewhere else! So I guess there's that.

Vermont is a little random for me considering that most of my programs are on the very very other side of the country, but I hear good things about the location and the program (that which I could find).

And to Leo Aquarius, I'm definitely highly interested in Davis in particular as far as Cali programs go. It's very close to home for me, and obviously Davis has a pretty nice reputation. I know matching into UC's of any kind is hard to do, though, so I don't have any wild expectations in that department. 😛 I'll just give it my best shot and see how it goes.

 

[jackson1]

Hey everyone, also class of 2014 psych here. I've found this forum extremely helpful and hope to give back a little to future applicants this season!

About me:
Top 40ish U.S. MD school
Low 200's step 1, waiting on CK score and haven't taken CS yet.
3rd year-a few honors (including psych), mostly high passes
I think my LOR's will be strong
No red flags

Looking for a program with:
-Strong Child
-Exposure to Eating Disorders (or good support to explore unique interests)
-Varied rotations w/ numerous inpatient units if possible
-Balanced lifestyle, good feel with friendly and happy people
-Strong psychotherapy
-Medium-sized city, preferably with outdoor activities + water nearby

Here's my list so far:
South: UNC, MUSC, USC-Palmetto, Duke, UVA, Florida, Tulane, UTSW, Vanderbilt, Arkansas, UTMB, Emory, LSU
Midwest: Indiana, MCW, Northwestern, Pitt, Cinci, Michigan, Iowa
Northeast: Georgetown, Maryland, Brown, Yale, Penn, Cambridge
West: Utah, New Mexico, UC Davis, Oregon, Washington, UCSD


I want to be safe given my low step 1, but know that 32 is still too many programs for a U.S. applicant with no red flags. Any suggestions on places to cut down (or if I missed one that seems like a great fit, I'm open to that too)?

Looking forward to going through the application process with all of you! 🙂

 

[Nasrudin]

Hey everyone, also class of 2014 psych here. I've found this forum extremely helpful and hope to give back a little to future applicants this season!

About me:
Top 40ish U.S. MD school
Low 200's step 1, waiting on CK score and haven't taken CS yet.
3rd year-a few honors (including psych), mostly high passes
I think my LOR's will be strong
No red flags

Looking for a program with:
-Strong Child
-Exposure to Eating Disorders (or good support to explore unique interests)
-Varied rotations w/ numerous inpatient units if possible
-Balanced lifestyle, good feel with friendly and happy people
-Strong psychotherapy
-Medium-sized city, preferably with outdoor activities + water nearby

Here's my list so far:
South: UNC, MUSC, USC-Palmetto, Duke, UVA, Florida, Tulane, UTSW, Vanderbilt, Arkansas, UTMB, Emory, LSU
Midwest: Indiana, MCW, Northwestern, Pitt, Cinci, Michigan, Iowa
Northeast: Georgetown, Maryland, Brown, Yale, Penn, Cambridge
West: Utah, New Mexico, UC Davis, Oregon, Washington, UCSD


I want to be safe given my low step 1, but know that 32 is still too many programs for a U.S. applicant with no red flags. Any suggestions on places to cut down (or if I missed one that seems like a great fit, I'm open to that too)?

Looking forward to going through the application process with all of you! 🙂

Hey, alright thanks for joining the conversation. I'm having the same dilemma as you. Your geographic spread is tremendous. That should really help you get a lot of quality programs on your list that will have a good bang/buck ratio.

I look forward to seeing your throughout process as we approach the 9/15 launch. Idk about you guys, but I want to apply to all my programs upfront. It seems like applying to them later sends an unenthusiastic message.

 

[rkaz]

.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I look forward to seeing your throughout process as we approach the 9/15 launch. Idk about you guys, but I want to apply to all my programs upfront. It seems like applying to them later sends an unenthusiastic message.

Not so much--could mean that you heard about a program while out on the trail and thought it might interest you.

Just a word to all of you from someone who is dreading Sunday...

STOP WORRYING about "sending messages".
Please.

Be straightforward, honest, and enthusiastic.
If you like something, tell us.
If you don't, tell us. Maybe we're not a good fit for you. That's OK. Maybe you like another place better.
Just don't lie to us. OK? Can we agree on this for the next 6 months?

And be REALLY NICE to the Program Coordinators.
Especially that.

Thanks.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Here's my list so far:
South: UNC, MUSC, USC-Palmetto, Duke, UVA, Florida, Tulane, UTSW, Vanderbilt, Arkansas, UTMB, Emory, LSU
Midwest: Indiana, MCW, Northwestern, Pitt, Cinci, Michigan, Iowa
Northeast: Georgetown, Maryland, Brown, Yale, Penn, Cambridge
West: Utah, New Mexico, UC Davis, Oregon, Washington, UCSD

All nice programs--but I agree with you, it's too many for someone with your profile.

Just to assist you in winnowing it down, I'm just wondering are you really that open to anything, geographically? I would maybe look at concentrating on your preferred region, and applying more in depth to more programs in that particular region. Just an opinion...
OTOH, you stick to that list, you're highly likely to end up somewhere good. May just have spent a LOT of time, money, and energy on the interview season.

 

[NYCMS2]

Hey everyone, also class of 2014 psych here. I've found this forum extremely helpful and hope to give back a little to future applicants this season!

About me:
Top 40ish U.S. MD school
Low 200's step 1, waiting on CK score and haven't taken CS yet.
3rd year-a few honors (including psych), mostly high passes
I think my LOR's will be strong
No red flags

Looking for a program with:
-Strong Child
-Exposure to Eating Disorders (or good support to explore unique interests)
-Varied rotations w/ numerous inpatient units if possible
-Balanced lifestyle, good feel with friendly and happy people
-Strong psychotherapy
-Medium-sized city, preferably with outdoor activities + water nearby

Here's my list so far:
South: UNC, MUSC, USC-Palmetto, Duke, UVA, Florida, Tulane, UTSW, Vanderbilt, Arkansas, UTMB, Emory, LSU
Midwest: Indiana, MCW, Northwestern, Pitt, Cinci, Michigan, Iowa
Northeast: Georgetown, Maryland, Brown, Yale, Penn, Cambridge
West: Utah, New Mexico, UC Davis, Oregon, Washington, UCSD


I want to be safe given my low step 1, but know that 32 is still too many programs for a U.S. applicant with no red flags. Any suggestions on places to cut down (or if I missed one that seems like a great fit, I'm open to that too)?

Looking forward to going through the application process with all of you! 🙂

As a fellow applicant with somewhat similar standing and scores as you, I have many of the same programs on my app list (especially in the South), and I recently cut my list down from around 30 to 20+/-, and I think you could safely do the same, but as to which ones to cut, I leave that to you or others.

Honestly, I think I could cut my list down again to around 15 (hoping to attend enough to rank 10), mainly because I don't want to be juggling and canceling interview offers at places I feel kind of marginal about to begin with.

If you want to discuss privately, send me a PM. There are a couple of progs on your list I dropped for assorted negatives (some personal perception, some based on reviews on SDN), but I am not going to broadcast that on the open forum. Frankly, if you take the time to read all of the posts on programs from the last few years, it is pretty easy to know which ones to cut, but it takes a lot of time to do that, and time is short now...I started on my list over a year ago, and have tweaked it ever since.

 

[JourneyAgent]

nvm

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Let me concur with OPD’s comment about coordinators. No resident would last a week without the support of a coordinator. Thank you letters are so universal now, almost everyone sends them and it has spread from just the PD to sending them to everyone who interviews an applicant. I have never seen a thank you letter, or a lack of one be an issue that is discussed at selection committee. The smartest applicants send a letter to the coordinator. The impact of this is probably an order of magnitude higher than sending one to a faculty member.

 

[Nasrudin]

Not so much--could mean that you heard about a program while out on the trail and thought it might interest you.

Just a word to all of you from someone who is dreading Sunday...

STOP WORRYING about "sending messages".
Please.

Be straightforward, honest, and enthusiastic.
If you like something, tell us.
If you don't, tell us. Maybe we're not a good fit for you. That's OK. Maybe you like another place better.
Just don't lie to us. OK? Can we agree on this for the next 6 months?

And be REALLY NICE to the Program Coordinators.
Especially that.

Thanks.

Yeah I here you. But I can assure I'm honest to a fault which is why I'm fretting over not having anything sincere to say when I'm not that familiar with a place. I can prepare enough for interviews to have this taken care of. But from where I'm sitting, it doesn't seem like there's a way to know what selection of interviews I'll get. So I have to throw out some applications that are a little awkward for the time being.

I can understand a distaste for dishonesty. I feel the same way. But take a second to recall the power differential. Whatever I may think, walking in there and telling people John Wayne-like what's up to snuff and what not about their program is not going to happen.

Please recall who is offering the jobs and who is applying for them despite your understandable frustrations with insincerity. But as always, you're insight is appreciated.

 

[Armadillos]

Anyone with any thoughts about the southeastern programs this year that may be changed/evolving from previous years? Specifically places like Duke, Emory, UNC, MUSC, UVA?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

...I can understand a distaste for dishonesty. I feel the same way. But take a second to recall the power differential. Whatever I may think, walking in there and telling people John Wayne-like what's up to snuff and what not about their program is not going to happen.

Please recall who is offering the jobs and who is applying for them despite your understandable frustrations with insincerity. But as always, you're insight is appreciated.

Honesty is not about being John Wayne. But you could say "One of the residents indicated that this is a problem...are you doing something to change that?" or "I'm a little concerned that I might be shortchanged in __________ if I come here--am I misunderstanding that?" It's about being direct. Not about worrying that I'll rank you lower for jumping on a last minute interview opening because you happened to be in town interviewing somewhere else near by.

And gosh, I wish we had that much power...but understand that we are in competition with other programs for your time and attention, too. And ultimately, only the Match Gods decide. (If it were really just up to us offering a job, we'd take the first dozen and call it a day!)

I think it's probably more like buying a house than like a job search. The applicants are trying to to put in their best offers, knowing that there's only so many houses available in their price range, and the programs are desperate to get the best price, at the same time understanding that there's a fairly similar house for sale down the street.

 

[Nasrudin]

Honesty is not about being John Wayne. But you could say "One of the residents indicated that this is a problem...are you doing something to change that?" or "I'm a little concerned that I might be shortchanged in __________ if I come here--am I misunderstanding that?" It's about being direct. Not about worrying that I'll rank you lower for jumping on a last minute interview opening because you happened to be in town interviewing somewhere else near by.

And gosh, I wish we had that much power...but understand that we are in competition with other programs for your time and attention, too. And ultimately, only the Match Gods decide. (If it were really just up to us offering a job, we'd take the first dozen and call it a day!)

I think it's probably more like buying a house than like a job search. The applicants are trying to to put in their best offers, knowing that there's only so many houses available in their price range, and the programs are desperate to get the best price, at the same time understanding that there's a fairly similar house for sale down the street.

Ok. I see what you're saying. It's just not the advice we get from the other side. From the people counseling us so that their match lists for their students are successful and look good. They coach us like its looking for a job and that we should behave accordingly.

For instance I asked, right on point with your POV that we shouldn't be dodgy, if we could just be honest if we were asked about our weaknesses. And I was advised, by a national expert of residency selection, to be dodgy. And say my weakness is that I just take my work too seriously or something like that.

I'll keep in mind what you're saying. But everything I'm being told elsewhere is that you try to ascertain negatives from informal sources outside the interview.

Edit. Also I was told never to ask about moonlighting in an interview from multiple sources. Despite the fact that the economic bottom line and moonlighting opportunities are very important to me. I read somewhere that notdeadyet asked about it in all his interviews. So maybe we're getting a particular angle from the people trying to shepherd their whole flock successfully through the match. Maybe it's not what's real. Particular for people with the cajones to get after what they want. Maybe some PD's respect that in an applicant. idk....

 

[deleted314290]

I dont know if this is the place but ERAS opens on the 15th, is it imperative to submit that day or will it suffice to submit within the week?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I dont know if this is the place but ERAS opens on the 15th, is it imperative to submit that day or will it suffice to submit within the week?

Within the month.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

... Maybe it's not what's real. Particular for people with the cajones to get after what they want. Maybe some PD's respect that in an applicant. idk....

But how do you know what size it is we're measuring for? Hmm?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

...For instance I asked, right on point with your POV that we shouldn't be dodgy, if we could just be honest if we were asked about our weaknesses. And I was advised, by a national expert of residency selection, to be dodgy. And say my weakness is that I just take my work too seriously or something like that.
...

🙄

 

[deleted452516]

Outside of the western states I'm putting apps in at U Hawaii, U Wisconsin-Madison, Michigan State, and University of Vermont, along with a few others that I may have forgotten to list.

I'm not sure if it fits in with your weather goals, but the culture at Dartmouth was really cool. They are DO friendly and if you are considering Vermont I would definitely send them an app too.

 

[RedSox87]

Anyone with any thoughts about the southeastern programs this year that may be changed/evolving from previous years? Specifically places like Duke, Emory, UNC, MUSC, UVA?

Hey there! I'm happy to touch on what I know regarding this topic. Disclaimer, I am a Duke Psych resident. It was my first choice and I would eagerly choose Duke again. You will work hard but learn a tremendous amount of material and have an absolute blast while you do it. My experience has been one of tremendous support, education, enthusiasm and I am truly happy resident. Duke psych is very well respected in the hospitals and our relationship with surgery, medicine, ER etc is one of mutual love. This was something that stood out to me about Duke compared to other places when I came. At Duke, you work at Duke Hospital, the Durham VA med center (across the street from Duke), Duke Regional Hospital, NC state Psychiatric hospital, and a multitude of outpatient clinics in Durham in your 3rd and 4th year. The training in psychopharm, neuropsychiatry, addiction, psychotic disorders, all arrays of mood disorders, family studies, therapy, motivational interviewing, child and adolescent, and the list goes on and on, is excellent. Thursday 8am-1pm is reserved academic half-day for residents. When you go on interviews for residency and when you talk to residents in other fields, you will see how rare and special this half-day of learning is. Im currently on an off-service rotation and am still able to attend these academic half-days. They work very hard to make every rotation a quality learning and doctoring opportunity.

The rest of my reviews about the other programs will be positive as well, because I actually did like all the other places I went, just like Duke the best.

Regarding Emory, I think its a great program - seems very therapy oriented, which is great. They have a really cute department building that had charming trees, etc around it - but its still on hospital campus, so yay. The program residents seemed very happy. All my communications with the program director were positive. Atlanta is a sweet city (a bit congested with traffic, but very cool indeed). Grady hospital gives exposure to an intense and interesting set of pathologies.

UNC: I love Chapel hill as a city - i live in chapel hill, but work at Duke. Takes 12-15 minutes drive to get to Duke. UNC campus is beautiful. The hospital is beautiful as well. The program seemed very warm, happy and close-knit. The residents seem to work just as hard as we do at Duke, so if you're going for an easy program, UNC and Duke are not for you. The triangle - Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, is very heavily populated and UNC and Duke work hard to fill this need for mental health care - and this isn't even counting the patients who are transferred from surrounding states. Anyways, the UNC residents seem very talented and well trained. They seem to get more Child Psych exposure in their 1st and 2nd year than we do. Their second year of residency is outpatient, which seems cool and most people seem happy with it.

I ended up canceling interviews to UVA, MUSC, Vanderbilt because I felt that between Duke and UNC, I had found my fit.

 

[Armadillos]

Hey there! I'm happy to touch on what I know regarding this topic. Disclaimer, I am a Duke Psych resident. It was my first choice and I would eagerly choose Duke again. You will work hard but learn a tremendous amount of material and have an absolute blast while you do it. My experience has been one of tremendous support, education, enthusiasm and I am truly happy resident. Duke psych is very well respected in the hospitals and our relationship with surgery, medicine, ER etc is one of mutual love. This was something that stood out to me about Duke compared to other places when I came. At Duke, you work at Duke Hospital, the Durham VA med center (across the street from Duke), Duke Regional Hospital, NC state Psychiatric hospital, and a multitude of outpatient clinics in Durham in your 3rd and 4th year. The training in psychopharm, neuropsychiatry, addiction, psychotic disorders, all arrays of mood disorders, family studies, therapy, motivational interviewing, child and adolescent, and the list goes on and on, is excellent. Thursday 8am-1pm is reserved academic half-day for residents. When you go on interviews for residency and when you talk to residents in other fields, you will see how rare and special this half-day of learning is. Im currently on an off-service rotation and am still able to attend these academic half-days. They work very hard to make every rotation a quality learning and doctoring opportunity.

The rest of my reviews about the other programs will be positive as well, because I actually did like all the other places I went, just like Duke the best.

Regarding Emory, I think its a great program - seems very therapy oriented, which is great. They have a really cute department building that had charming trees, etc around it - but its still on hospital campus, so yay. The program residents seemed very happy. All my communications with the program director were positive. Atlanta is a sweet city (a bit congested with traffic, but very cool indeed). Grady hospital gives exposure to an intense and interesting set of pathologies.

UNC: I love Chapel hill as a city - i live in chapel hill, but work at Duke. Takes 12-15 minutes drive to get to Duke. UNC campus is beautiful. The hospital is beautiful as well. The program seemed very warm, happy and close-knit. The residents seem to work just as hard as we do at Duke, so if you're going for an easy program, UNC and Duke are not for you. The triangle - Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, is very heavily populated and UNC and Duke work hard to fill this need for mental health care - and this isn't even counting the patients who are transferred from surrounding states. Anyways, the UNC residents seem very talented and well trained. They seem to get more Child Psych exposure in their 1st and 2nd year than we do. Their second year of residency is outpatient, which seems cool and most people seem happy with it.

I ended up canceling interviews to UVA, MUSC, Vanderbilt because I felt that between Duke and UNC, I had found my fit.

Thanks a lot for the input! Sounds like some really awesome programs, the dedicated teaching day at Duke sounds great.

Question related to the bolded seeing as you mentioned working hard a couple times, I definitely want a program where I get great training, but also dont want to go 4 years being constantly exhausted and not having any time to spend with my wife. What sort of hours/call are we talking about at these programs?

(Im the type who learns significantly better when well rested, so depending on the situation I probably would actually get more out of program that was a little less rigorous if it meant I was always at my peak mentally)

 

[SteinUmStein]

(Im the type who learns significantly better when well rested, so depending on the situation I probably would actually get more out of program that was a little less rigorous if it meant I was always at my peak mentally)

You and every other honest human being. 👍 Wish it was kosher in all fields of medicine to admit that we just don't learn much when we're exhausted and ready to drop.

 

[RedSox87]

You are not alone in that at all. 2-3 years ago, Duke had a reputation of working their residents harsh hours, but this has all changed with the new work hour restrictions and the leadership at Duke really does dedicate themselves to giving us a good work-life balance. I'm also married and my wife and family are my world.

I'm a PGY1 - On average, I'm working 55-65 hours weekly on inpatient psych, depending on the admits, discharges and patient load that week. Call is about once a week and its only until 8 pm. Some rotations are 6-day weeks and you work a Saturday or Sunday weekly. What I've just described is more or less what most psychiatry inpatient rotations are like at other residencies too. The outpatient months (there are 3 outpatient-ish/consult months) have no weekend call and no call. Those months are about 45-50 hours a week.

We also do Duke inpatient medicine and med-psych service which is what you'd expect from inpatient medicine. 6 day weeks, 7a-7p with Some days are short so roughly 65 hours. But truly some of the most fascinating stuff you will see and quite satisfying.

I agree with you that rested residents learn better. And as a whole, psychiatry is ahead of the curve compared to other specialties in considering their residents health and happiness. We, in fact, have a mindfulness/meditation session every 4 weeks, we are encouraged to tend to our mental and physical health, have weekly process group for interns where we can discuss counter-transference issues, bask in the glow of our triumphs with our colleagues, support each other and grow in our friendship with one another.

I know there are programs where you can work less, but truly, for Duke, a top notch institution, to work this hard to protect our health and education, speaks to the caliber of the program and the leadership they attract. After a few months of intern year , I love psychiatry even more than when I started. This is a reflection of my overall health, mental wellness and program satisfaction.

 

[SmallBird]

You are not alone in that at all. 2-3 years ago, Duke had a reputation of working their residents harsh hours, but this has all changed with the new work hour restrictions and the leadership at Duke really does dedicate themselves to giving us a good work-life balance. I'm also married and my wife and family are my world.

I'm a PGY1 - On average, I'm working 55-65 hours weekly on inpatient psych, depending on the admits, discharges and patient load that week. Call is about once a week and its only until 8 pm. Some rotations are 6-day weeks and you work a Saturday or Sunday weekly. What I've just described is more or less what most psychiatry inpatient rotations are like at other residencies too. The outpatient months (there are 3 outpatient-ish/consult months) have no weekend call and no call. Those months are about 45-50 hours a week.

We also do Duke inpatient medicine and med-psych service which is what you'd expect from inpatient medicine. 6 day weeks, 7a-7p with Some days are short so roughly 65 hours. But truly some of the most fascinating stuff you will see and quite satisfying.

I agree with you that rested residents learn better. And as a whole, psychiatry is ahead of the curve compared to other specialties in considering their residents health and happiness. We, in fact, have a mindfulness/meditation session every 4 weeks, we are encouraged to tend to our mental and physical health, have weekly process group for interns where we can discuss counter-transference issues, bask in the glow of our triumphs with our colleagues, support each other and grow in our friendship with one another.

I know there are programs where you can work less, but truly, for Duke, a top notch institution, to work this hard to protect our health and education, speaks to the caliber of the program and the leadership they attract. After a few months of intern year , I love psychiatry even more than when I started. This is a reflection of my overall health, mental wellness and program satisfaction.

Great posts! I really liked Duke when I interviewed there. It's good to hear you are having a good learning experience.

However, I don't think it's fair to say the 55 to 65 is more or less average for inpatient pysch at most residencies. My experience is closer to 40 to 50 hours, maybe on rare occasions 55, and I have seen people on this forum post similar ranges. Lots of variation, of course, and I can't presume to know the average, but I would guess that 55 to 65 is pretty far to the heavier side.

Much more important is that you feel supported and that you are learning 🙂

 

[Nasrudin]

To Daedra and others to whom it pertains:

I've been trying to decide on whether to include the visalia program based on whether I thought I would spend the money to fly in and then rent a car and drive all the way out there.

My thoughts on the program is that it seems economically quite sporty. Good salary, good benefits including a gym membership, cheap rent. The program director seems nice. And he's a forensics guy with an interesting and highly qualified background. I'm considering forensics. One of the attending posters pointed it out that it looked weak in therapy. Idk what strong therapy looks like but I could see his point. Their director of therapy is Trinidadian. I have lots of colleagues from Trinidad and without exception they are superb academically. Their academics are very British and very rigorous. So I wouldn't let the lack of pedigree in that area dissuade me. And I'm also interested in group therapy and she lists that as one of her areas.

I guess my main concern is what will my colleagues be like. For a small program and an inaugural class who the class comprises seems very important. Their EM program has the kind of composition I favor. American grads, a mix of DO's and MD's. But their family program seems particularly fmg oriented. The program, from what I gather will be designed to have us train in the outpatient setting presumably with the family medicine program's faculty and residents.

I think I'll keep it on my list out of sheer curiosity and the fact that their economic package looks superb--a super sweet in-house moonlighting opportunity was mentioned on the website. Come to think of it their website is the best one I've seen. It's amazing how poorly organized some very well known programs' online presence is.

I'm curious if other people are seriously considering this program and might represent a potential colleague there or is this a Cali back up that will probably be fmg exclusively.

In full disclosure it's a wild card for me. I like their presentation and what their offering a potential resident. But I'm wary of it not being socially what I'd hoped for in terms of colleagues and culture. At which point it would be too late. It's not like you would know ahead of time. If I knew half of their resident classes would be American grads and half would fmg's I would be very interested in interviewing there.

Seems like the only way to get a better picture would be to check it out. It's just I'm coming from the east coast and I'm not sure when I'll run out of funds trying to make Cali interviews if I get them.

 

[Daedra22]

I think I'll keep it on my list out of sheer curiosity and the fact that their economic package looks superb--a super sweet in-house moonlighting opportunity was mentioned on the website. Come to think of it their website is the best one I've seen. It's amazing how poorly organized some very well known programs' online presence is.

I'm curious if other people are seriously considering this program and might represent a potential colleague there or is this a Cali back up that will probably be fmg exclusively.

In full disclosure it's a wild card for me. I like their presentation and what their offering a potential resident. But I'm wary of it not being socially what I'd hoped for in terms of colleagues and culture. At which point it would be too late. It's not like you would know ahead of time. If I knew half of their resident classes would be American grads and half would fmg's I would be very interested in interviewing there.

Seems like the only way to get a better picture would be to check it out. It's just I'm coming from the east coast and I'm not sure when I'll run out of funds trying to make Cali interviews if I get them.

See for me Visalia is a little easier to apply to since I'm living on the west coast for 4th year and I have friends to stay with for all my Cali interviews. A lot of people schedule of bunch of interviews in a far away state in a block, so if you end up with a number of southern California interviews that might help you cut down on your flying expenses. Like you, I don't know what exactly to expect out of the Visalia program, but I liked the website and there seem to be some benefits to being in that location (despite that heat that I'm not terribly keen on 😉 ).

For whatever it's worth, I'll be giving it consideration going into interview season. I'm going to go into it with an open mind and see what I think.

 

[Daedra22]

I'm not sure if it fits in with your weather goals, but the culture at Dartmouth was really cool. They are DO friendly and if you are considering Vermont I would definitely send them an app too.

I appreciate the tip! I just looked them up to see if I'd considered them before, and unfortunately Lebanon isn't a very good fit for my spouse's career, so I don't think I'd be likely to rank it. :-/ It does look like a nice program though.

 

[rkaz]

I know there are programs where you can work less, but truly, for Duke, a top notch institution, to work this hard to protect our health and education, speaks to the caliber of the program and the leadership they attract. After a few months of intern year , I love psychiatry even more than when I started. This is a reflection of my overall health, mental wellness and program satisfaction.

Even though I won't be applying to Duke (as they don't accept the COMLEX), I really do appreciate you posting your experiences. It's very refreshing to see a resident who loves his program and can manage to have a balanced home-work life. Thanks so much for sharing! 👍

 

[psych2be]

About me:step 1 240's , CK 250's, CS pass
middle of the pack in med school, magna cum laude, honors and hp in 3rd year
Ok LOR's
No red flags

Looking for a program with:
-Big city, with good public transportation
-Prefer east coast, northeast
-Strong in psychotherapy + psychotherapy for residents
-Interaction with minorities as I'm a minority myself
-Balanced lifestyle, good feel with friendly and happy people

Any recommendations on places to apply?

 

[Leo Aquarius]

About me:step 1 240's , CK 250's, CS pass
middle of the pack in med school, magna cum laude, honors and hp in 3rd year
Ok LOR's
No red flags

Looking for a program with:
-Big city, with good public transportation
-Prefer east coast, northeast
-Strong in psychotherapy + psychotherapy for residents
-Interaction with minorities as I'm a minority myself
-Balanced lifestyle, good feel with friendly and happy people

Any recommendations on places to apply?

I have no clue about northeast, but if you're willing to look at midwest then check out programs in Chicago. It offers excellent public transportation, great culture, happy people outside of south-side, diversity up the wazoo, with some strong psych programs. Chicago to me is New York with clean streets and nice people.