2015 MCAT Unjustifiable?

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I took the MCAT last year and therefore was included on that "Take the practice section for the 2015 MCAT at the end and receive a giftcard!" thing. For those who didn't take it, it was pretty much a slightly more objective Verbal section. I took a three-credit, 100-level sociology course and a three-credit, 100-level psych course my freshman year (4 years prior) to that MCAT. The only reason I (bio major) took them was to fulfill liberal arts requirements, and they were very easy courses to complete. On the MCAT, I scored in the 80th percentile on that "prospective" section. So if those passages truly reflect what the 2015 MCAT new sections will include (using myself as a case-study 🙂 ), I predict that the new section really won't have that huge of an impact on MCAT scores, and it still isn't testing any "new" material.

The huge problem: can we ever create a standardized test that TRULY evaluates a future physician? The answer seems to be a tugowar for leveling the platform between undergrad universities (especially important for those that inflate GPAs) and an inability to test subjective people/social skills.

How did you do on the regular Verbal MCAT if you don't mind my asking?

I think the Verbal section is extremely important. It tests reading quickly and rapidly dissecting information. That's a useful skill in any profession. Moreover, it shows that you have a strong enough grasp on the English language that you should, in theory, be able to form a coherent thought.
 
Even if we assume that you got 25% of the test takers to boycott the new test (~22,000), causing a steep decline in medical school applications in a few years, medical schools could completely fill their classes with qualified students who could handle the work, graduate on time, and match.

I cannot ever imagine a scenario in the next many decades where this process suddenly becomes an applicants' market.

Yep. It's about leverage, and we don't have it.

As far as @listener23 goes, I find your name ironic... Why didn't you make it talker23 or neverstopsposting23 or 23threadsaday?

Every time we get you to try to listen to something you just quote that Dream Hampton line that basically gives you another irrational excuse to not listen.
 
Hmm... this protest is predicated on the notion, at least implicitly, that with a few thousand signatures premeds will rise up and scare the AAMC, making them really question whether they have enough qualified applicants left over to fill all the medical schools? :laugh:

Even if we assume that you got 25% of the test takers to boycott the new test (~22,000), causing a steep decline in medical school applications in a few years, medical schools could completely fill their classes with qualified students who could handle the work, graduate on time, and match.

I cannot ever imagine a scenario in the next many decades where this process suddenly becomes an applicants' market.

I agree with this, and you pretty much took the words out of my mouth. It's a seller's market and the fact is that all U.S. medical schools require the MCAT. Unless there is a threat from medical schools to protest AAMC and an alternative test emerges, the AAMC can pretty much do what it wants to do. If you want to go to medical school, you have to play by their rules.

With this said, OP, I hate the 2015 MCAT. I don't understand why the new exam tests sociology and psychology. Even if we are assuming that those classes will make physicians more empathetic, etc., there doesn't need to be a test of for everything.
 
I think the Verbal section is extremely important. It tests reading quickly and rapidly dissecting information. That's a useful skill in any profession. Moreover, it shows that you have a strong enough grasp on the English language that you should, in theory, be able to form a coherent thought.

But verbal is hard, and I hate having to think about social determinants of disease! Why can't I just be an entitled whiny robot-child and get what I want by throwing a tantrum?
 
But verbal is hard, and I hate having to think about social determinants of disease! Why can't I just be an entitled whiny robot-child and get what I want by throwing a tantrum?

Yah the number of whiny robot children on SDN is skyrocketing. I blame Gen. Y
 
This is a troll right?
The test is being changed for the demand of doctors that can better relate to their patients and deliver personalized medicine more personally.
 
streampaw wouldn't be so depressing as some of these threads though. If nothing else, she is constantly optimistic.

That's why I said it might be her motivating some of her friends to join in. Even the 100 Acre Forest had Eeyore. :laugh:
 
Even if this was a well thought out idea and you had data backing you up, this wouldn't do it at all. You know how many people take the MCAT and apply to medical school each year, right?

~90,000 but if they lose ~20% of there profit I'm sure they would notice
 
The 2015 MCAT is a beautiful thing. It's a whole new meta-game and the first couple of years the averages won't be very high, I predict.

The most annoying part is that it is 7 hours.
My only gripe is that because of this we won't really have a metric of what is a very high score for at least a test cycle or so.
 
My only gripe is that because of this we won't really have a metric of what is a very high score for at least a test cycle or so.


This is all the more reason why I believe that adcoms will probably ignore the new social science section for the first couple of cycles.
 
I agree with you on that.



BUT MY CYCLE IS THE FIRST 2015 CYCLE.

Booyah.

Thank you test gods.
I think I'm in a similar boat, if not the cycle before (meaning I have some idea of what I need to score). Best of luck to you!
 
This is all the more reason why I believe that adcoms will probably ignore the new social science section for the first couple of cycles.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if they just take the V/BS/PS equivalent sections into acct. and then they pull a CollegeBoard and bring back a shorter format after a couple of cycles worth of students slogged out 7 hours on the exam.
 
My only gripe is that because of this we won't really have a metric of what is a very high score for at least a test cycle or so.

I disagree. While the absolute score might be somewhat open for interpretation, the percentile ranking won't.
 
Wouldn't it be hilarious if they just take the V/BS/PS equivalent sections into acct. and then they pull a CollegeBoard and bring back a shorter format after a couple of cycles worth of students slogged out 7 hours on the exam.

It would be amusing, but I would still feel badly for the students who ended up taking the longer exam.
 
You don't think any facet of medical education may have possibly changed in the span of 11 years?

Yeah, many schools are integrating systems-based curricula, and this has nothing to do with social science/humanities that they're testing on with the new MCAT.
 
~90,000 but if they lose ~20% of there profit I'm sure they would notice
I'm sure in theory this sounds like a realistic idea to you. However, in reality, do you seriously think 20% of pre-meds are going to boycott a YEAR of their life on the EXTREMELY tiny chance that it will change things? Think again.

Not to mention we'd probably see a drastic increase in murder rates from all the pre-med parents murdering their kids en masse.
 
I disagree. While the absolute score might be somewhat open for interpretation, the percentile ranking won't.
That's true. I didn't think of this. This will all be published, yes?
 
I'm sure in theory this sounds like a realistic idea to you. However, in reality, do you seriously think 20% of pre-meds are going to boycott a YEAR of their life on the EXTREMELY tiny chance that it will change things? Think again.

Not to mention we'd probably see a drastic increase in murder rates from all the pre-med parents murdering their kids en masse.

ha ha
 
How did you do on the regular Verbal MCAT if you don't mind my asking?

I think the Verbal section is extremely important. It tests reading quickly and rapidly dissecting information. That's a useful skill in any profession. Moreover, it shows that you have a strong enough grasp on the English language that you should, in theory, be able to form a coherent thought.

As a 3x MCATer, verbal was my weakpoint - finally clicked on the last one and got a 10. In my undergrad, I complained all the time about verbal when I took the MCAT twice. Now, working as a lab tech research asst, I've realized the necessity for triage skills/quick assessments. I continuously improved the amount of time it took me to skim through a 12-page article, pull out the juice and use it for my own publication. I'm absolutely confident that this is why I bumped my score. Maybe I've got a case of Stockholm syndrome with verbal - but I swear by that section now.
 
Honestly I was kind of bummed about not taking the new MCAT. I think it makes sense to have an added focus on social sciences and I'll be curious to see how it affects MCAT averages
It makes ZERO sense to add social sciences. Social sciences are irrelevant to social skills AND to science background. All it does is add another layer of fuzzier things so that people who are good at testing rather than good at studying or who have mastered the material, can rock out. Which I'm actually grateful for, as I'm a terrible student but an exceptional test-taker. I just don't think that's what they were going for.
 
One of the famous SDNers posted this eloquent feedback on 2015 MCAT.

Agreed. It pushes out people who can bring a valuable perspective to medicine such as engineers.



+1. There wasn't anything wrong with the current MCAT. It was just that certain people within AAMC decided that it would be a good idea to throw everything possible at Pre-Meds to make sure that they were "broader-educated" and to make the test "more relevant" - whatever that means.

It probably would have been cheaper anyways just for med schools to revise their curriculum requirements to include Biochem, Sociology and Psych as required courses, but apparently that would have been too convenient and made too much sense. Grades for those courses would indicate mastery of that material, and the MCAT could remain in its current form as an analytical rather than comprehensive knowledge instrument for assessing applicants.

And a larger question is "Are current physicians out of touch with the general population and therefore ineffective?". Arguably not - or at least from the efficacy of the doctors I see in my local ER. I don't think that these doctors know the definition of "class conflict theory" or "cognitive dissonance". But yet their knowledge of the patient population and of how people work has been acquired through practice rather than by sitting in a classroom and acquiring low yield knowledge.

Funny thing is that pretty much everyone on the test revision committee is composed of academics who as we know are pretty much out of touch with the reality of medical practice. They aren't the ones who are actually providing healthcare to the bulk of the population, or at the spearhead of actually positive medical reform.

In fact, this whole idea of producing more "well-rounded" doctors is based on the premise that the system currently produces a bunch of socially-inept individuals, and that even current doctors share this same problem. This may be the case, but having them stick even longer in the classroom and study even more for the test isn't going to be a solution for this - the best course of action is to actually get them OUT of the classroom and into the real world.

And it seems that the committee of "geniuses" who devised the new test seem to have drank the doctor-bashing Kool-Aid.

Weirdly enough, the timing of the new MCAT isn't a coincidence: The recently established Obamacare seeks to transfer patient responsibility to the physician.

What does this mean?

It means making physicans more "patient-friendly" by making them be more "empathetic". Patient issues are not the problems of the patient but rather "class" and "environmental issues". Essentially, individual responsibility is abrogated and any problems are the physican's problems.

The illustration below is a good indicator of the kind of medicine that physicians will be required to practice in the future by governmental decree:


What better way to indoctrinate young doctors into the cult of Obamacare by arbitrarily forcing them through sociology and psychology, which have NO relevance to clinical efficacy?

So if revisions couldn't have been prevented, what could have been done instead?

Add a section over finance/business related stuff. Seriously. The majority of doctors have no financial sense, and undergrad is the perfect place to build up that base.

Finally, to answer the question of Dr. Darrell G. Kirch, the President of the AAMC:



Hopefully physicians - unlike the ones who came up with the 2015 MCAT - not isolated in Ivory Towers and who are out of touch with the realities of the real world. Ironically, this is the very outcome that the test writers were trying to avoid by introducing the new sections. Yet they seem to have taken no steps to fix their own condition. As the old adage goes, "Physician heal thyself".

After all, it was this mindset that led to the AMA endorsing Obamacare.
 
One of the famous SDNers posted this eloquent feedback on 2015 MCAT.

I take offense to the engineers comment. We are not all socially/verbally/whatevery else inept. Plenty of engineers will continue to do just fine on the MCAT and getting into med school. Just as plenty of bio/chem/psych majors will continue to do poorly on the new MCAT and not get into med school.

to be fair, I stopped reading after that line lol. too long and the MCAT no longer impacts me 🙂
 
I take offense to the engineers comment. We are not all socially/verbally/whatevery else inept. Plenty of engineers will continue to do just fine on the MCAT and getting into med school. Just as plenty of bio/chem/psych majors will continue to do poorly on the new MCAT and not get into med school.

to be fair, I stopped reading after that line lol. too long and the MCAT no longer impacts me 🙂

#humblebrag
 
Lol wtf is up with SDN lately.. So many ridiculous threads.

Did streampaw throw a pre-med fiesta and give you guys dat neurotic crazy drank? Was rifle4802 the DJ?

No I was. Plus I'm that hardcore shuffling dude. Inb4modpunishmentbutiaminnocent!

#sorry #you'remyfriend #hashtag

#stillhumblebrag #hashtagOVERLOAD #minionsarejuicy #friedminions :naughty:
 
No I was. Plus I'm that hardcore shuffling dude. Inb4modpunishmentbutiaminnocent!



#stillhumblebrag #hashtagOVERLOAD #minionsarejuicy #friedminions :naughty:
#selfie #protein
 
Yeah my husband is a ChemE and is the opposite of socially awkward. Was in a fraternity, brews his own beer, partied just as hard as I did in undergrad.

Being a plant engineer actually takes a lot of social skills because you are supervising a large number of blue collar workers. I really don't understand this socially awkward engineer stereotype.
 
Yeah my husband is a ChemE and is the opposite of socially awkward. Was in a fraternity, brews his own beer, partied just as hard as I did in undergrad.

Being a plant engineer actually takes a lot of social skills because you are supervising a large number of blue collar workers. I really don't understand this socially awkward engineer stereotype.

Dude, why would you need social skills just to engineer plants? That makes no sense at all. :smack:
 
Please tell me you're joking
 
The 2015 MCAT is a beautiful thing. It's a whole new meta-game and the first couple of years the averages won't be very high, I predict.
I actually disagree with this. They're determining the weights for each question the same way they always have (past performance on those questions), so why should the scores change radically? I guess it's possible the number of students who participated in the trial section over the last year was much smaller than the normal sample size they use.

I suspect the only difficulty will be in figuring out how old scores compare to new, but percentages make that fairly easy, as @knv2u pointed out.
 
I actually disagree with this. They're determining the weights for each question the same way they always have (past performance on those questions), so why should the scores change radically? I guess it's possible the number of students who participated in the trial section over the last year was much smaller than the normal sample size they use.

I suspect the only difficulty will be in figuring out how old scores compare to new, but percentages make that fairly easy, as @knv2u pointed out.

I wasn't aware they were using the same pt. determination for this mcat, so that does change things.

Dr. Steve Wright who used to be the director of TMDAS gave premeds at my school a talk about the 2015 MCAT earlier last semester and he said that the AAMC would release a list similar to the SAT/ACT comparison , or old SAT vs New SAT score comparisons to compare old and new MCATs.

Edit: scott wright not steve
 
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I wasn't aware they were using the same pt. determination for this mcat, so that does change things.

Dr. Steve Wright who used to be the director of TMDAS gave premeds at my school a talk about the 2015 MCAT earlier last semester and he said that the AAMC would release a list similar to the SAT/ACT comparison , or old SAT vs New SAT score comparisons to compare old and new MCATs.

Edit: scott wright not steve
Makes sense. Fatigue could negatively impact scores as well, I suppose. Those 2013 guinea pigs weren't answering questions six hours deep.
 
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