2020 and 2021 ABR board exam pass rates

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Everything was just updated:

Clinical written remains high.

Interesting about physics - only 150 test takers, but a 92% pass rate? That means that there was a decent number of people who split up the exams (taking one in May and one in August), and 8% still failed despite only having to study for a single exam.

I mean, I'll take this over the 2018 Debacle, but I feel like it should be higher.

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[brushbeamscanning]

Part of it might be early test takers as well since they allowed rising PGY-4 to take rad bio or physics with permission from their PD. However, yes 92% seems lower than the prior 98%s.

If you expect ~200 per year, 150 is higher than expected by ~50 if you shift 100 or so from the 2020 (including 4/2021) examinees.

 

[madchemist89]

I doubt PDs would give permission to take early if they didn't think resident would pass because then it could negatively impact their pass rates.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I doubt PDs would give permission to take early if they didn't think resident would pass because then it could negatively impact their pass rates.

But how does one actually assess that? Not a single PD is sitting in physics/rad bio lectures with their PGY-2s through 4s to see who actually knows the material.

I think these pass rates are within the realm of reason. We can argue is > 90 or > 85 or some other number is 'reasonable', but I think 99/92/97 is super totally 100% reasonable.

Yes we all want 100% pass rates but if that was the case we should just stop giving the test. Which I'm not against, but is a bit of a different discussion.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

But how does one actually assess that? Not a single PD is sitting in physics/rad bio lectures with their PGY-2s through 4s to see who actually knows the material.

I think these pass rates are within the realm of reason. We can argue is > 90 or > 85 or some other number is 'reasonable', but I think 99/92/97 is super totally 100% reasonable.

Yes we all want 100% pass rates but if that was the case we should just stop giving the test. Which I'm not against, but is a bit of a different discussion.

At least when I was PD residents took tests during radbio/physics courses and the course leader gave grades.

 

[evilbooyaa]

At least when I was PD residents took tests during radbio/physics courses and the course leader gave grades.

Well, your RB/P courses were more structured than mine ever were. I still passed first time through

 

[deleted1111261]

2018 still such an outlier.

I’d probably stop tweeting about RadOnc if LK/PW apologized. What dismal senior leadership and lack of accountability.

 

[ramsesthenice]

Everything was just updated:

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Clinical written remains high.

Interesting about physics - only 150 test takers, but a 92% pass rate? That means that there was a decent number of people who split up the exams (taking one in May and one in August), and 8% still failed despite only having to study for a single exam.

I mean, I'll take this over the 2018 Debacle, but I feel like it should be higher.

8% failure is about as good as it gets. There are always going to be a small number of people who try to do silly things like take their boards a week after having a baby or focus on getting publications out instead of studying. All residents are capable of passing but there will always be a baseline of people who get in their own way.

 

[hockyfan]

Idk, any thoughts on the 87% for oral boards? To me that seems rather low at that stage in the game (ie, having passed all 3 other exams)...

 

[jondunn]

Idk, any thoughts on the 87% for oral boards? To me that seems rather low at that stage in the game (ie, having passed all 3 other exams)...

I think the bar is reasonably low, and most people who fail just really had a bad mistake/bad day.

 

[ROforbetterorworse]

Idk, any thoughts on the 87% for oral boards? To me that seems rather low at that stage in the game (ie, having passed all 3 other exams)...

Seems in line with prior years

Hard to say without knowing the cases, training background, who was the exam questioner etc of those who failed

We joke about it on here but there really are some terrible programs out there maybe not preparing their grads

 

[medgator]

Seems in line with prior years

Hard to say without knowing the cases, training background, who was the exam questioner etc of those who failed

We joke about it on here but there really are some terrible programs out there maybe not preparing their grads

In a few years, going to be a combo of terrible programs paired with terrible grads.... Will be interesting to see what happens with oral boards pass rates going forward

 

[RadOncMegatron]

In a few years, going to be a combo of terrible programs paired with terrible grads.... Will be interesting to see what happens with oral boards pass rates going forward

Doesn't it make sense that the scores will be lower if the quality of the applicants aren't as high? Wasn't there also talk of the boards becoming harder in the past decade given the "golden era of rad onc residents" while maintaining historical pass rates of ~90%?

 

[medgator]

Doesn't it make sense that the scores will be lower if the quality of the applicants aren't as high? Wasn't there also talk of the boards becoming harder in the past decade given the "golden era of rad onc residents" while maintaining historical pass rates of ~90%?

Maybe PW and LK won't be gaslighting one day after all...

 

[dieABRdie]

In a few years, going to be a combo of terrible programs paired with terrible grads.... Will be interesting to see what happens with oral boards pass rates going forward

Our current burdensome and soul sucking board certification process is the ONLY thing the ABR is currently doing with potential to improve the job market in the future. A large majority entering rad onc residency now have no chance as it currently stands. If the bar is lowered, you will find yourself competing with them for jobs. I agree it probably should be changed... but be careful what you wish for.

 

[medgator]

Our current burdensome and soul sucking board certification process is the ONLY thing the ABR is currently doing with potential to improve the job market in the future. A large majority entering rad onc residency now have no chance as it currently stands. If the bar is lowered, you will find yourself competing with them for jobs. I agree it probably should be changed... but be careful what you wish for.

I don't think it should be changed at all, esp considering programs are willing to soap in anyone with a pulse

 

[RickyScott]

2018 still such an outlier.

I’d probably stop tweeting about RadOnc if LK/PW apologized. What dismal senior leadership and lack of accountability.

Absolutely agree. Failing 40 % of residents almost all of whom had AOa and 95% step scores is disgusting. What’s worse is that LK has fashioned her self as a leadership KOL and actual gives presentations on leadership. Worse yet she expanded her shtty residency this year!
Truly one of the worst that radonc has to offer. Confidence and nastiness is not a surrogate for competence and inelligence.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Absolutely agree. Failing 40 % of residents almost all of whom had AOa and 95% step scores is disgusting. What’s worse is that LK has fashioned her self as a leadership KOL and actual gives talks on leadership. Worse yet she expanded her shtty residency this year!
Truly one of the worst people in the field

This really damaged my trust/belief in our current board certification process. While, as I've said elsewhere, I expect to see a dip in pass rates in a few years...I am doubtful that it will actually happen. I think pass rates are easily manipulated.

I think the 2018 Debacle is a huge black eye to our specialty for numerous reasons.

 

[ROforbetterorworse]

This really damaged my trust/belief in our current board certification process. While, as I've said elsewhere, I expect to see a dip in pass rates in a few years...I am doubtful that it will actually happen. I think pass rates are easily manipulated.

I think the 2018 Debacle is a huge black eye to our specialty for numerous reasons.

2018 - let’s fail those who got less than 70% correct

2025 - let’s fail those only who get less than 30% correct

Will be same overall pass rate

 

[brushbeamscanning]

I'm a little skeptical about this tremendous drop in applicant quality and presumably predicted fail rate. Sure, I'll acknowledge there'll be less US MDs with AOA and high board scores, and more IMG/FMGs -- but everyone is certainly capable of passing a few exams if there's enough time and motivation. Even if they are 'lesser' quality, you can imagine they'll have some introspection and take additional time to prepare for the exams. There's definitely a huge incentive to pass since it's required for certification and eventual practice. Usually FMGs on average have very high board scores given the additional time they take to prepare.

 

[ROforbetterorworse]

I'm a little skeptical about this tremendous drop in applicant quality and presumably predicted fail rate. Sure, I'll acknowledge there'll be less US MDs with AOA and high board scores, and more IMG/FMGs -- but everyone is certainly capable of passing a few exams if there's enough time and motivation. Even if they are 'lesser' quality, you can imagine they'll have some introspection and take additional time to prepare for the exams. There's definitely a huge incentive to pass since it's required for certification and eventual practice. Usually FMGs on average have very high board scores given the additional time they take to prepare.

No way to find out since only pass rates are released not how many Q correct on average it took to pass etc

 

[taserlaser]

When do you think we will get fall results? Today is 10 days following the last exam date.

 

[RickyScott]

I'm a little skeptical about this tremendous drop in applicant quality and presumably predicted fail rate. Sure, I'll acknowledge there'll be less US MDs with AOA and high board scores, and more IMG/FMGs -- but everyone is certainly capable of passing a few exams if there's enough time and motivation. Even if they are 'lesser' quality, you can imagine they'll have some introspection and take additional time to prepare for the exams. There's definitely a huge incentive to pass since it's required for certification and eventual practice. Usually FMGs on average have very high board scores given the additional time they take to prepare.

Everyone in medicine should be capable of passing an exam that they study hard for. Most fmgs are no dummies. This is not quantum mechanics. Also reaffirms the travesty and nastiness of the board fiasco.

 

[deleted1111261]

I'm a little skeptical about this tremendous drop in applicant quality and presumably predicted fail rate. Sure, I'll acknowledge there'll be less US MDs with AOA and high board scores, and more IMG/FMGs -- but everyone is certainly capable of passing a few exams if there's enough time and motivation. Even if they are 'lesser' quality, you can imagine they'll have some introspection and take additional time to prepare for the exams. There's definitely a huge incentive to pass since it's required for certification and eventual practice. Usually FMGs on average have very high board scores given the additional time they take to prepare.

Part of me wants to believe that - I feel like “hard to get into” doesn’t really mean “hard to learn” (think Derm) and people will be fine.

That being said, forget the board scores - RadOnc residents of the last 10-15 years had incredible horsepower, and if even some had a hard time, these were some sharp cats. If we are talking about a large number of people that don’t even want to do this specialty - the motivation is a factor. If you have people that had trouble passing Step 1, physics and bio are going to be challenging. I’m not staying that makes you a better doctor- but it’s our hoops and we have to jump through them.

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Part of me wants to believe that - I feel like “hard to get into” doesn’t really mean “hard to learn” (think Derm) and people will be fine.

That being said, forget the board scores - RadOnc residents of the last 10-15 years had incredible horsepower, and if even some had a hard time, these were some sharp cats. If we are talking about a large number of people that don’t even want to do this specialty - the motivation is a factor. If you have people that had trouble passing Step 1, physics and bio are going to be challenging. I’m not staying that makes you a better doctor- but it’s our hoops and we have to jump through them.

Absolutely, I almost forgot how bad I wanted to be a rad onc and all the crap I had to go through to do it. It sucked, but the passion for the patients and the field kept me going. Can you imaging getting into rad onc b/c you couldn't get into derm or IR and then just SOAP'd an open spot out of desperation? I'm sure they can do well and grow to love rad onc, but certainly not an apples to apples comparison as @RealSimulD points out.

 

[communitydoc13]

Usually FMGs on average have very high board scores given the additional time they take to prepare.

Tremendous barriers for FMGs. Their step scores are typically very high. They have usually demonstrated lots of resilience to get here. (Not talking about US Caribbean situation). While cultural/language barriers can be real and impact patient care, typically a very smart bunch.

Where I am, hard to recruit high end US medical school talent (except for radonc). There are of course exceptions, but the hospital routinely gets burned by US med school grads who are not loyal to the region, not terribly motivated to work hard or have leverage and willingness to leave region for greener pastures at first instance of not getting their way. Their best investment has often been FMGs.

Same will hold for radonc residencies going forward and they know this.

 

[temujim]

I'm a little skeptical about this tremendous drop in applicant quality and presumably predicted fail rate. Sure, I'll acknowledge there'll be less US MDs with AOA and high board scores, and more IMG/FMGs -- but everyone is certainly capable of passing a few exams if there's enough time and motivation. Even if they are 'lesser' quality, you can imagine they'll have some introspection and take additional time to prepare for the exams. There's definitely a huge incentive to pass since it's required for certification and eventual practice. Usually FMGs on average have very high board scores given the additional time they take to prepare.

ahhh FMGs... doing the rad onc jobs americans don't want to do....

 

[medgator]

I'm a little skeptical about this tremendous drop in applicant quality and presumably predicted fail rate. Sure, I'll acknowledge there'll be less US MDs with AOA and high board scores, and more IMG/FMGs -- but everyone is certainly capable of passing a few exams if there's enough time and motivation. Even if they are 'lesser' quality, you can imagine they'll have some introspection and take additional time to prepare for the exams. There's definitely a huge incentive to pass since it's required for certification and eventual practice. Usually FMGs on average have very high board scores given the additional time they take to prepare.

Yet here we are, with recent instances of FMGs matching rad onc but being unable to secure (even a surgical) prelim position

 

[jondunn]

Yet here we are, with recent instances of FMGs matching rad onc but being unable to secure (even a surgical) prelim position

I think this is more about visa issues/not applying broadly than them not being good enough for a prelim position.

if you think rad onc will take anyone, look at a surgery prelim program some time. literally definition of needing warm bodies.

 

[TheWallnerus]

everyone is certainly capable of passing a few exams

Next thing ya know, I was walking down the street, a bird pooped on my head, I passed a few exams, and BOOM I was an expert, board certified radiation oncologist!

 

[medgator]

I think this is more about visa issues/not applying broadly than them not being good enough for a prelim position.

if you think rad onc will take anyone, look at a surgery prelim program some time. literally definition of needing warm bodies.

Uhhh Surg prelim positions end up in the scramble all the time and i doubt visa issues have anything to do with it if these folks are securing advanced training positions

 

[RickyScott]

I think this is more about visa issues/not applying broadly than them not being good enough for a prelim position.

if you think rad onc will take anyone, look at a surgery prelim program some time. literally definition of needing warm bodies.

this year applicants who matched (Kentucky ?) could not get into any ty or surg prelim. We are getting the worst of the worst.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

this year applicants who matched (Kentucky ?) could not get into any ty or surg prelim. We are getting the worst of the worst.

Want this person already a practicing rad onc? In my experience, these people are usually pretty good. Most likely just faced uphill climb and didnt apply to enough places?

 

[w00tz]

When do you think we will get fall results? Today is 10 days following the last exam date.

10 business days, so probably Tuesday

 

[jondunn]

Want this person already a practicing rad onc? In my experience, these people are usually pretty good. Most likely just faced uphill climb and didnt apply to enough places?

yep.

the fact that people don't seem to get this is hilarious to me.

why do people not like logic.

 

[jondunn]

Uhhh Surg prelim positions end up in the scramble all the time and i doubt visa issues have anything to do with it if these folks are securing advanced training positions

I.....do not think you understand how this works

visa limitations vary wildly from program to program. this is a real thing that many FMG trainees face.

 

[deleted1111261]

yep.

the fact that people don't seem to get this is hilarious to me.

why do people not like logic.

@jondunn - you don’t see this as an issue? I think matching someone that has a legitimate potential of not getting an intern position (for any reason) is a problem. This is a new problem and frankly has to do specifically with how uncompetitive we have become.

I know your take is that this is overly pessimistic. I agree with that, at times. But, I would say that you tend to take the view that “all is fine” and we here on this forum are nuts. I found this to be alarming enough to message ARRO (I feel like they will care more than ASTRO).

 

[jondunn]

@jondunn - you don’t see this as an issue? I think matching someone that has a legitimate potential of not getting an intern position (for any reason) is a problem. This is a new problem and frankly has to do specifically with how uncompetitive we have become.

I know your take is that this is overly pessimistic. I agree with that, at times. But, I would say that you tend to take the view that “all is fine” and we here on this forum are nuts. I found this to be alarming enough to message ARRO (I feel like they will care more than ASTRO).

FMGs are limited in what hospitals they can work in, for visa sponsorship issues.

an FMG matching into IM is easier than matching into a advanced program as well as a prelim program simultaneously.

it's not saying 'everything is fine' at all (come on) but rather pointing out a likely explanation. especially as carbonionagne pointed out, some are actually perfectly fine/good on paper, and wouldn't NOT match at a prelim program because they suck so bad.

 

[deleted1111261]

Fair point, but regardless of why, this is a problem and would not have happened 5 years ago.

 

[jondunn]

Fair point, but regardless of why, this is a problem and would not have happened 5 years ago.

dude.

that is because FMGs werent really a thing in the field 5 years ago.

my dude you gotta get a drink.

 

[deleted1111261]

dude.

that is because FMGs werent really a thing in the field 5 years ago.

my dude you gotta get a drink.

I don’t drink! But appreciate the advice.

 

[medgator]

dude.

that is because FMGs werent really a thing in the field 5 years ago.

my dude you gotta get a drink.

Yeah they were matching psych a decade ago... Smart call on their part, as psych competitiveness and job market has essentially been an inverse mirror image of rad onc

 

[SneakyBooger]

Next thing ya know, I was walking down the street, a bird pooped on my head, I passed a few exams, and BOOM I was an expert, board certified radiation oncologist!

"What made you decide to go to medical school?"

"Same thing, man, same ezact thing. In my senior year, I got this postcard from the University of Chicago: WANT TO GO TO MEDICAL SCHOOL AT CHICAGO? IF SO, FILL OUT AND RETURN THIS CARD. That was all. No Medical Board tests, no application, no nothing. Full scholarship, four years. So there it is, and here I am."

"And what about the House of God?"

"Same thing, man, same ezact thing. Senior year, postcard: WANT TO BE AN INTERN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD? IF SO, FILL OUT AND RETURN THIS CARD. There it is. Sumthin’ else, huh?"

"Well, you sure put one over on them."

"I thought I did, but you know, seeing these pitiful patients and all, I think those guys sending me the postcards knew all along I was tryin' to fool them by gettin' all this, so they fooled me by givin' it all to me. My old man was right: that first postcard was my downfall. I shoulda joined the army."

-- The House of God, Samuel Shem

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

Scores up. Hope folks did well. I'm even more confused now about what to make of this process than before, and I passed. I can say the studying process made me better at doing this, and maybe that's the point...

 

[MudPhud20XX]

If you fail any of the written boards, when can you retake it? Will I not graduate residency program if I can't pass the board during the Chief year?

 

[thecarbonionangle]

If you fail any of the written boards, when can you retake it? Will I not graduate residency program if I can't pass the board during the Chief year?

You will graduate and retake it at a later time. Of course if you never pass it will affect you but i dont think failing and passing will hurt you. I got a better idea though, failure aint an option for you. You got this!

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

If you fail any of the written boards, when can you retake it? Will I not graduate residency program if I can't pass the board during the Chief year?

1) There is absolutely no "official" rule that you can't graduate. People fail and graduate every year.
2) It used to be you could only take writtens once per year. I think they're offering two dates per year now since it's virtual? It's on the ABR website.
3) Agree with @thecarbonionangle - you got this!