2021 Psych Match rate for DOs

[tinyhandsbob]

Was perusing the 2021 match rates for Psych for DOs and its down to 73% this year for those whose only choice was Psych.. Down from 85 % last year but there was another year in the low 70s in 2018. Interesting thing is that if you look at the numbers, you can trace the decrease in DO match in Psych almost entirely to the increase MD applicants (~100) this year combined with a lowish increase in the number of psych positions this year. It seems that MD applicants displace DO applicants almost 1:1 for Psych for whatever reason. This does not bear well for future DO psych applicants as the proportion of MD applicants to psych as been increasing steadily year after year and will likely be increasing at a faster rate than the increase in psych positions as MD class sizes grow and the specialty continues to grow in popularity.

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[deleted898021]

Was perusing the 2021 match rates for Psych for DOs and its down to 73% this year for those whose only choice was Psych.. Down from 85 % last year but there was another year in the low 70s in 2018. Interesting thing is that if you look at the numbers, you can trace the decrease in DO match in Psych almost entirely to the increase MD applicants (~100) this year combined with a lowish increase in the number of psych positions this year. It seems that MD applicants displace DO applicants almost 1:1 for Psych for whatever reason. This does not bear well for future DO psych applicants as the proportion of MD applicants to psych as been increasing steadily year after year and will likely be increasing at a faster rate than the increase in psych positions as MD class sizes grow and the specialty continues to grow in popularity.

Jeez relax it’s psych.. not ortho or derm, this has to do with the way the data is presented, last year I am willing to bet due to covid many applicants dual applied(even strong applicants for psych) that data isn’t included in this, since it’s only for people who ranked psych as the only specialty. I don’t know what the % is with all applicants. Last year was also an anamoly due to covid, we will see if the trend continues though..

 

[deleted898021]

Psych doesn't have the boring, icky perception it had a decade or two ago. Everyone is realizing that it’s an easy 40hrs/$280k job without the hassles of general medicine. I know a PP psych who’s probably averaging $400/hr and lives in a $3m house

my friend was told by his attending to not bother applying psych (at his institution) without USMLEs (only comlex). He ended up just doing IM

Lol wut the average step 1 score for psych is still way lower than for IM, I know people just in my school who matched with below average scores and just comlex , psych cares Way more about fit and commitment which is way easier IMO then doing well on step….

 

[Surgeon D.O.]

Was perusing the 2021 match rates for Psych for DOs and its down to 73% this year for those whose only choice was Psych.. Down from 85 % last year but there was another year in the low 70s in 2018. Interesting thing is that if you look at the numbers, you can trace the decrease in DO match in Psych almost entirely to the increase MD applicants (~100) this year combined with a lowish increase in the number of psych positions this year. It seems that MD applicants displace DO applicants almost 1:1 for Psych for whatever reason. This does not bear well for future DO psych applicants as the proportion of MD applicants to psych as been increasing steadily year after year and will likely be increasing at a faster rate than the increase in psych positions as MD class sizes grow and the specialty continues to grow in popularity.

I can tell you're stressing about all this and while it's great you are planning ahead and analyzing match data, just remember to take it one day, no...one hour at a time. The road is long Padawan! You're going to be fine!

 

[Candidate2017]

Lol wut the average step 1 score for psych is still way lower than for IM, I know people just in my school who matched with below average scores and just comlex , psych cares Way more about fit and commitment which is way easier IMO then doing well on step….

The average matched Step score for psych could be 195 (or whatever's the lowest, minimum passing score) but it still doesn't change that 26.5% of DOs failed to match psych vs 9% of MDs.

That said, some of those MDs matching psych would've been DOs in the past, but for the recent expansion of MD seats.

 

[deleted898021]

Do you know how to interpret data? Not all IM programs are equal. Some are more competitive than bottom-of-the-barrel ortho (former AOA, etc) while other IM programs are so bad most US students would rather go unmatched then suffer in them. The top crop IM programs have an easier path into Cardio, GI ($500k+ salary), while others are dead-ends for hospitalist/primary care/nephron/endo etc (200-250k).

For example, while the average FM salary may be $250k nationwide, its closer to 200k in NYC and $300k in Alabama.

So there aren’t any bottom of the barrel psych programs? What are you even saying? Generally speaking it’s harder to match IM then Psych…

 

[deleted898021]

The average matched Step score for psych could be 195 (or whatever's the lowest, minimum passing score) but it still doesn't change that 26.5% of DOs failed to match psych vs 9% of MDs.

That said, some of those MDs matching psych would've been DOs in the past, but for the recent expansion of MD seats.

You don’t think covid had anything to do with that? The year before it was like an 85% match rate..

 

[djiboutiman]

While Psych is getting more competitive for sure, it isn’t all over for DOs. This year’s low match rate could be explained partly by the lack of audition rotations and zoom interviews. Without really getting to know an applicant, PDs will probably almost always rank the MD applicant over the DO one, if everything else is equal. I do think this year’s match rate should serve as a warning to DO students to make sure to demonstrate interest in Psychiatry early and try to get at least one audition rotation in.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Lol wut the average step 1 score for psych is still way lower than for IM, I know people just in my school who matched with below average scores and just comlex , psych cares Way more about fit and commitment which is way easier IMO then doing well on step….

That's because psych programs usually don't care about step 1. They're mostly looking for interest and best fit

 

[tinyhandsbob]

Jeez relax it’s psych.. not ortho or derm, this has to do with the way the data is presented, last year I am willing to bet due to covid many applicants dual applied(even strong applicants for psych) that data isn’t included in this, since it’s only for people who ranked psych as the only specialty. I don’t know what the % is with all applicants. Last year was also an anamoly due to covid, we will see if the trend continues though..

It's the same percentage when you add in first choice and only choice. Also, 2018 wasnt covid and the Match rate was similar.

 

[tinyhandsbob]

I can tell you're stressing about all this and while it's great you are planning ahead and analyzing match data, just remember to take it one day, no...one hour at a time. The road is long Padawan! You're going to be fine!

You don’t think covid had anything to do with that? The year before it was like an 85% match rate..

No bc it was 72 % in 2018. It's been between 72% -85% over the past 5 years with two years out of 5 in the low 70s. There s actually less of a difference in Md/do match rates for gen surgery and other specialties than for psych (although the board averages may be higher for those). Not to say the sky is falling for DOs or anything, just something to be aware of if you re going the DO route with psych specifically in mind. There s a big difference from 1 in 10 don't match first choice psych specialty (MD) to 1 in 4 don't (DO).

 

[deleted1099686]

dang, I posted about this couple days ago hoping it wasn't true. I wonder if it'll get worse in the next 5 years or keep fluctuating. The only thing that makes sense to me is the uprise of mental health issues regarding covid/lockdown maybe motivating a lot of MD's to pursue psych thus causing the decrease in DOs matching.

 

[deleted1100659]

Every residency program cares about your board scores. My program had tons of applicants that could have been a “good fit”. What do you think narrows down the intitial selection? We always had way more applicants than spots and never went too far down the rank list. The caliber of applicants last cycle was so good there was trouble differentiating between the categories of “rank high” or “top rank” etc.

numbers are what get your application looked at, because most med students have passion and experience.

op, take it one day at a time. Work hard, do your best, and things likely will work out for you. The future is impossible to predict so do your best to stay present minded, because you always change current circumstances and improve your odds. DOs definitely are not out of the osych match, it’s just competitive these days. Which is not hard to be surprised about given the number of people and the competitive nature medicine breeds.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Every residency program cares about your board scores. My program had tons of applicants that could have been a “good fit”.

The program where I rotated for psych told me they actually are probably less likely to rank someone higher who has high step scores. Psych really does tend to not care nearly as much about scores.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Every residency program cares about your board scores. My program had tons of applicants that could have been a “good fit”. What do you think narrows down the intitial selection? We always had way more applicants than spots and never went too far down the rank list. The caliber of applicants last cycle was so good there was trouble differentiating between the categories of “rank high” or “top rank” etc.

numbers are what get your application looked at, because most med students have passion and experience.

op, take it one day at a time. Work hard, do your best, and things likely will work out for you. The future is impossible to predict so do your best to stay present minded, because you always change current circumstances and improve your odds. DOs definitely are not out of the osych match, it’s just competitive these days. Which is not hard to be surprised about given the number of people and the competitive nature medicine breeds.

I've literally seen people with 220 step 1 match over someone with a 240. Psych is really weird in that way.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

N=1. It’s program dependent then. My buddy rotated at one program where the attending straight up told him “don’t bother applying we won’t rank you”. He had immediate family connections in a different specialty at this program (and he matched despite having weaker scores than others).

Like others are saying. It’s better to play it safe, network, show interest etc, but then also be reasonable and applying for FM/IM backup.

I know people who matched semi-competitive specialties with <3 interviews but it’s not the norm. Better to play it safe

The general consensus from applicants, PDs, and data is that scores are much less important in psych. Not that you should try to score low, but it should be much less of a stressor if you want psych.

 

[deleted1100659]

The program where I rotated for psych told me they actually are probably less likely to rank someone higher who has high step scores. Psych really does tend to not care nearly as much about scores.

that logic doesn’t make sense to me; someone having higher scores doesn’t mean they have clinical or social deficits. Not that I’m saying I don’t believe you.

not trying to be rude, I’m just putting it in terms of most programs get a huge amount of applicants compared to number of spots. I would wager 90 percent of them have a good background. So they have to look at objective measures to get to the interview process.

now the interview and other factors matter quite a bit, but I definitely will stand by the fact that scores will get you in the door at a place. Once you have the interview it’s fair/Correct to say that a high score doesn’t guarantee a high ranking but if they get 200 applicants for 7 spots, and 175 of them have great backgrounds..then an objective pre screen method is used to narrow the pool. I personally know my program had a pre screening method and cutoffs.

but I’m referring to getting an interview rather than ranking.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

that logic doesn’t make sense to me; someone having higher scores doesn’t mean they have clinical or social deficits. Not that I’m saying I don’t believe you.

not trying to be rude, I’m just putting it in terms of most programs get a huge amount of applicants compared to number of spots. I would wager 90 percent of them have a good background. So they have to look at objective measures to get to the interview process.

now the interview and other factors matter quite a bit, but I definitely will stand by the fact that scores will get you in the door at a place. Once you have the interview it’s fair/Correct to say that a high score doesn’t guarantee a high ranking but if they get 200 applicants for 7 spots, and 175 of them have great backgrounds..then an objective pre screen method is used to narrow the pool. I personally know my program had a pre screening method and cutoffs.

but I’m referring to getting an interview rather than ranking.

They told me people with a higher step 1 were probably less likely to be better psychiatrists. They were kind of joking, but said that they really don’t weigh the score at all except that they’d probably give some pause to someone with a high score. Obviously this is an extreme example, but the idea that they don’t look at scores very much is pretty widespread.

 

[Candidate2017]

I've literally seen people with 220 step 1 match over someone with a 240. Psych is really weird in that way.

Not weird at all, if the 220 person interviews better than the 240.

Everyone who passes Steps will be, theoretically, a competent physician. A 260 student will not necessarily be a better derm/ortho/neusu than a 220 student. But there are not enough spots and programs need some quantitative filter to compare apples to apples and screen out applicants.

In psych, our interviews are a qualitative filter that have actual predictive value in how well you will perform as a resident and psychiatrist. In a 20-30 minute interview where you are supposedly on your best behavior, if you come off as a snotty student, then it tells me you lack self-insight and likeability. And that lowers your odds of successfully getting a psychotic/manic patient to take their meds and not punch you in the face.

Insight and likeability/trust have a direct correlation to your ability to recognize and point out flaws in patients' thoughts/emotions/behaviors and get them to take powerful psychotropics that occasionally have terrible side effects, as well as agree to undergo significant, painful, therapeutic change.

 

[calvinhobbes]

At my institution, the MD med students today told me that they fell wayyyyy down on their lists (like matched at their number 7 or 10, some at their last rank) and these guys had Steps above 250. They told me stories of how kids in their class with Steps above 260 (!) didn’t match psych. So, it was hard for US MDs, too. The psych program at my hospital for the first time has zero IMGs in their intern class, and it was mostly filled by their own MD school students, and one DO. The popularity of psych really has increased and for whatever reason, it has become harder to match compared to 5 years ago. Zero SOAP spots in psych this year too.

 

[Davidfromcali]

For what it’s worth, one of my buddies at a top tier MD school saw the amount of students match psych double this year. There was an unmatched student as well. Don’t know the details of that but it’s still pretty surprising

 

[tinyhandsbob]

They told me people with a higher step 1 were probably less likely to be better psychiatrists. They were kind of joking, but said that they really don’t weigh the score at all except that they’d probably give some pause to someone with a high score. Obviously this is an extreme example, but the idea that they don’t look at scores very much is pretty widespread.

I don't disagree that in psych they look at the applicant more holistically but I'd point a couple of reasons why this may not explain why the DO match rate has been lower:

1) The match rate this year into psych for DO/MD was 73% & 91%. If psych programs are not looking at the board scores that closely, it follows that they found that a proportionally higher number of MD applicants were a "good fit" than DO applicants and that they found that year after year. I can't see why they would think that based on fit alone. Maybe it's other factors like research, LORs or maybe it's just stigma, but fit alone does not explain it, if one assumes DO applicants are just as passionate about psych and have equal interviewing skills.

2) If you look at the match data visualization available on NMRP (most recent available is 2020 I think) you'll notice that for psych (like for most other programs), the higher the board score- the higher the match rate into psych. I think this holds for both COMLEX and USMLE, so applies equally for both DO and MDs. It's not a perfect correlation but it's definitely significant.

My best guess is that these low 70s match rates while the MD match rate stays around 90 are due to MDs displacing DOs in years where the growth in MD applicants is higher than the growth in # of psych positions. You can actually find all this data in the match reports if you dig around. I played around with the data in a spreadsheet and although my analysis is pretty crude it appeared that a DO with an average COMLEX score is less likely to match into psych than an MD with an average USMLE score. The differences didn't appear as significant with higher scores (because at the higher scores, almost everyone matched).

 

[djiboutiman]

I wonder if it will ever be commonplace for DO and low tier MD students to take a research year between M3 and M4 for psych, like it is for the other competitive specialties. Some people don’t know they want to do psych until end of M3, but at the same time psych values commitment to the specialty. Seems like a good way to show commitment and get a chance at the ”prestigious” programs.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I wonder if it will ever be commonplace for DO and low tier MD students to take a research year between M3 and M4 for psych, like it is for the other competitive specialties. Some people don’t know they want to do psych until end of M3, but at the same time psych values commitment to the specialty. Seems like a good way to show commitment and get a chance at the ”prestigious” programs.

Uh no.

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

I wonder if it will ever be commonplace for DO and low tier MD students to take a research year between M3 and M4 for psych, like it is for the other competitive specialties. Some people don’t know they want to do psych until end of M3, but at the same time psych values commitment to the specialty. Seems like a good way to show commitment and get a chance at the ”prestigious” programs.

what a great way to lose like 400k lmao

 

[Prehealth1011]

I wonder if it will ever be commonplace for DO and low tier MD students to take a research year between M3 and M4 for psych, like it is for the other competitive specialties. Some people don’t know they want to do psych until end of M3, but at the same time psych values commitment to the specialty. Seems like a good way to show commitment and get a chance at the ”prestigious” programs.

This kinda behavior should definitely be added as a diagnosis in the next DSM