2024 MGMA Data

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DolphinVA

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There's been some great threads lately about employment options, compensation, and negotiation. But it's got me thinking about my current comp package -- Does anyone have the MGMA percentiles for 2024? Specifically total comp for cardiac in the South? PM me if you're worried about sharing publicly.
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DolphinVA said:
There's been some great threads lately about employment options, compensation, and negotiation. But it's got me thinking about my current comp package -- Does anyone have the MGMA percentiles for 2024? Specifically total comp for cardiac in the South? PM me if you're worried about sharing publicly.
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Don’t be cheap. If you want it. Pay for it Or split the cost with someone.

Anyways. Data has zero meaning anymore. Like zero

Had a place in the south tell a practice they were overpaid and quoted data from area groups and maga data from 2023. Guess what. 5 docs walked. That’s your data buddy.
 
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The problem is that MGMA does not collect locums data.

Would be interesting to know what proportion of anesthesiologists work full-time only vs part-time+locums vs primarily locums.
 
nimbus said:
The problem is that MGMA does not collect locums data.

Would be interesting to know what proportion of anesthesiologists work full-time only vs part-time+locums vs primarily locums.
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They are getting to be outdated to be honest. Locums use is very arbitrary and very manipulated data along with w2 overtime use.

I’ve seen some of the books cooked by a few hospitals how they manage to skew data to make it look like only 5% of their operating costs for anesthesia were from true 1099 locums and most of the overtime was from w2 anesthesia providers. When these places have 20% locums 1099 anesthesiologist and 40% crna locums.

They manipulate financials just like the old Arthur Anderson big 5 consulting firm

That’s why it’s hard to decipher how much locums is being used.
 
aneftp said:
They are getting to be outdated to be honest. Locums use is very arbitrary and very manipulated data along with w2 overtime use.

I’ve seen some of the books cooked by a few hospitals how they manage to skew data to make it look like only 5% of their operating costs for anesthesia were from true 1099 locums and most of the overtime was from w2 anesthesia providers. When these places have 20% locums 1099 anesthesiologist and 40% crna locums.

They manipulate financials just like the old Arthur Anderson big 5 consulting firm

That’s why it’s hard to decipher how much locums is being used.
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How did you see the books?
 
nimbus said:
Subpoena?
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I think you guys live in such a bubble. You don’t understand how the world works.

Let’s say the anesthesia budget is
2 million for 4 anesthesiologists
A place is short 2 anesthesiologist

So 1 million for w2 anesthesiologist (2)

The locums cost for the two missing anesthesiologist is 1 million each so total is 2 million

Plus the 1 million for the 2 w2 docs.

So Total is 3 million for 4 docs

Now due to overtime etc the (2) w2 docs make around $700k each. So 1.4 million (400k in overtime)

These companies and hospitals than decide to shift the locums budget to EM and Anesthesia. Since EM doesn’t need locums since they own both the em and anesthesia contract

It’s blurs the reality of how much locums is being used. Because the ER budget is much larger than the smaller anesthesia budget.

Look what hca is doing with their physicians services. They fired docs in charge and are merging anesthesia IM and EM under the same umbrella.

It’s all smoke and mirrors.
 
aneftp said:
I think you guys live in such a bubble. You don’t understand how the world works.

Let’s say the anesthesia budget is
2 million for 4 anesthesiologists
A place is short 2 anesthesiologist

So 1 million for w2 anesthesiologist (2)

The locums cost for the two missing anesthesiologist is 1 million each so total is 2 million

Plus the 1 million for the 2 w2 docs.

So Total is 3 million for 4 docs

Now due to overtime etc the (2) w2 docs make around $700k each. So 1.4 million (400k in overtime)

These companies and hospitals than decide to shift the locums budget to EM and Anesthesia. Since EM doesn’t need locums since they own both the em and anesthesia contract

It’s blurs the reality of how much locums is being used. Because the ER budget is much larger than the smaller anesthesia budget.

Look what hca is doing with their physicians services. They fired docs in charge and are merging anesthesia IM and EM under the same umbrella.

It’s all smoke and mirrors.
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Translation: I didn’t really see the books.
 
Arch Guillotti said:
Translation: I didn’t really see the books.
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I saw the books. Small place.

things are manipulated.

You may live in a bubble world as well. Open your eyes man.

It’s like me telling people are routinely hitting 50k a week locums and people don’t believe it.
 
aneftp said:
I saw the books. Small place.

things are manipulated.

You may live in a bubble world as well. Open your eyes man.

It’s like me telling people are routinely hitting 50k a week locums and people don’t believe it.
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Mr. President, the question was, how did you see the books?
 
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aneftp said:
I saw the books. Small place.

things are manipulated.

You may live in a bubble world as well. Open your eyes man.

It’s like me telling people are routinely hitting 50k a week locums and people don’t believe it.
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aneftp said:
I saw the books. Small place.

things are manipulated.

You may live in a bubble world as well. Open your eyes man.

It’s like me telling people are routinely hitting 50k a week locums and people don’t believe it.
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You said a “few” places
 
Arch Guillotti said:
Blade. What does that have to do with the “books”?
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There are many ways to off load payments. To make it look like you are primary just paying w2 wages instead of 1099 locums. To make the practice look better and less reliant on locums.

When you sit down with leadership and they explain what budget goes where.

But you guys continue to be skeptical of things I say.

That’s my reference to stormy Daniels payments. Cooking the books.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Aneft lived in the hospital for 7 days straight. He billed the locums company for the vast majority of those 7 days. He took home just over $70k 1099 income. I saw the check.
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Blade. What does that have to do with the “books”
aneftp said:
There are many ways to off load payments. To make it look like you are primary just paying w2 wages instead of 1099 locums. To make the practice look better and less reliant on locums.

When you sit down with leadership and they explain what budget goes where.

But you guys continue to be skeptical of things I say.

That’s my reference to stormy Daniels payments. Cooking the books.
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None of this is looking at the books. Have you ever been a partner in a private practice that produces detailed financial reports?
 
Arch Guillotti said:
Blade. What does that have to do with the “books”

None of this is looking at the books. Have you ever been a partner in a private practice that produces detailed financial reports?
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Yes I have been a partner and we had to hire a forensics company to try to claw back the missing money the practice manager swindled from us.

You guys act like I make up stuff.

Have you ever been on a phone call with a billionaire hotel ceo demanding you cut your anesthesia rates for his self insured private Health care plans all the way down to Medicare rates for his employees? It’s a dirty business. One I’m glad I’m not a part of anymore.

I just get my paycheck from whoever pays me and move on.
 
aneftp said:
There are many ways to off load payments. To make it look like you are primary just paying w2 wages instead of 1099 locums. To make the practice look better and less reliant on locums.

When you sit down with leadership and they explain what budget goes where.

But you guys continue to be skeptical of things I say.

That’s my reference to stormy Daniels payments. Cooking the books.
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My healthcare organization/healthcare system gets away with their non-profit status, yet we have some "locums" on staff as 1099 for the past 18 months; what you say seems plausible and actually likely.
 
Arch Guillotti said:
Blade. What does that have to do with the “books”

None of this is looking at the books. Have you ever been a partner in a private practice that produces detailed financial reports?
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Yeah... no he did not see the books, all the examples given make zero sense.... in multiple thread multiple messages... he said she said scenarios. The real truth is in reference to the OP is that MGMA data is still lagging... it is not meant to reflect Locum rates. The unfortunate truth is that non-for profit systems have to abide (no clue why) by MGMA data to pass a government litmus test for proper non-for profit classification. This has led to lagging salaries which did indeed caused either walkouts or lack of hiring capacity and increased locums cost. The interesting point is that there are subsidies that hospitals get when over 40% of providers in a specialty are locums hence certain facilities are not in a rush even though increases w2 salaries by 100k is much cheaper then employing locums. I am not sure what books there are to discuss, no hospital will show you their facility fees vs salaries etc etc.... back to the thread it would be nice to see newest MGMA data... regardless of how meaningless it is.
BTW: no clue what AFTP and Blade are talking about in the hijacked section.
 
2021 data. Well behind the times

docdro.id

document.pdf

2021. ANNUAL PHYSICIAN COMPENSATION SURVEY Pinnacle Health Group’s compensation data is based on mean compensation and / or base salary for 155 surveyed doctors and 166 healthcare organizations, covering 40 specialties, from May 1 to June 7, 2021. The healthcare facilities for which the searches...
docdro.id docdro.id

It’s such a fast moving market. 2024 is behind the times as well
 
partydoc said:
Seems a little low
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Of course it’s seems low. Because its
Incorrect. The powers to be (hospital and management companies) want to
Make it look as low as possible for negotiating.

Even when you present w2 paystubs from competitors 10 miles away saying they are 80k under market. They purposely Wil delay meeting market rates. Saying they will raise pay “next year”.
 
You will never make or lose more money per unit of time in your life than the time spent negotiating.
 
Dr. Rude said:
You will never make or lose more money per unit of time in your life than the time spent negotiating.
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Took me 20 years in practice to finally figure it out.

The job market is so wide open. People are just so afraid to walk. And I have a family with 2 kids still in school and a dog. I’m not afraid to walk.

I just started my w2 hybrid job with massive weeks off and already looking into another locums job to attack. Literal have them by the balls. My friend turn down 2 million for the year. I want 2.5 million. It’s a game of chicken now. Who blinks. We hit them high and low.
 
I used aneftp (and others) advice for negotiation with our hospital

MGMA, Sullivan Cotter, etc. The data doesn't matter
1. Data is often 1+ year old. The market has been changing so fast that 1+ year could mean a difference in 50k
2. High paying groups have historically not responded (don't want to be a target for PE)

The hospitals know this data and try and use it against you. "Oh you guys are already at 75%ile according to our data". Ok but if we are at 90%ile in unit production then that is a bad deal.

Find the hospital in the region that can attract and maintain physicians and see what they pay. Look at your pay on a per hour (or per unit) rate. That is the market rate.
 
aneftp said:
Took me 20 years in practice to finally figure it out.

The job market is so wide open. People are just so afraid to walk. And I have a family with 2 kids still in school and a dog. I’m not afraid to walk.

I just started my w2 hybrid job with massive weeks off and already looking into another locums job to attack. Literal have them by the balls. My friend turn down 2 million for the year. I want 2.5 million. It’s a game of chicken now. Who blinks. We hit them high and low.
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That's amazing, what are your tips? You previously said you work through referrals (not recruiters), do you ever cold call hospitals, who do you ask to talk to? What are your travel tips?
 
2.5 mil?
Glad to see it, but something doesn't add up.
 
aneftp said:
The job market is so wide open. People are just so afraid to walk. And I have a family with 2 kids still in school and a dog. I’m not afraid to walk.
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this. too many people lack the courage of their convictions - be it $ or integrity or ? Years ago on sdn someone, (blade? or one of the other long timers), advised accumulating a "f you fund" - several months of expenses saved so that you could walk if needed. good advice. well now this market is so good you dont need one.... or will get one as a signing bonus. dont be afraid to walk. every other profession knows you get the best deal changing jobs... doctors for some reason dont think like that.


(I am sure aneftp's numbers are very real... I also know that almost none of us would like to work as much as he does or be as deft at negotiating as he is.... too many of us "feel bad" if places dont have coverage and would want to help... he is very business minded.)
 
Maverikk said:
sevoflurane said:
2.5 mil?
Glad to see it, but something doesn't add up.
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4 docs already split a 2 million dollar position every other day. 365/24/7 at another place in GA

I’m just bringing them Florida hospitals up to another level.

The average advertised 24/7 (2 week on, 2 week off) gig is 500k each doc (2 docs cover entire year) and ain’t no one touching it for that amount ($114/hr). That’s 2016-2018 salary. So Georgia is already breaking that trend.
 
aneftp said:
4 docs already split a 2 million dollar position every other day. 365/24/7 at another place in GA

I’m just bringing them Florida hospitals up to another level.

The average advertised 24/7 (2 week on, 2 week off) gig is 500k each doc (2 docs cover entire year) and ain’t no one touching it for that amount ($114/hr). That’s 2016-2018 salary. So Georgia is already breaking that trend.
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Are the super high paying places like the 2 mil place BFE? I could probably stomach living there for 6 months out of the year for a mil.
 
Coffee PRN said:
Are the super high paying places like the 2 mil place BFE? I could probably stomach living there for 6 months out of the year for a mil.
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BFE but still 50 min from international airport so not that bad. Just crappy town. I’m just toying with them. They haven't said no. Which means they are shopping for lower cost providers and still can’t find suckers to do beeper rate. I’d rather deal with flat rates if i have to be away from my own bed in bfe

I can only do it (bare it) 3 days a month I think. No Apple Store or Best Buy near by.

No way I can stay there for 7 days in a row. I like to be near real civilization.

My friends will split it if it works out. It’s divide and conquer at these jobs. I may go up to Georgia for a week and alternate the 1099 gigs.
 
aneftp said:
BFE but still 50 min from international airport so not that bad. Just crappy town. I’m just toying with them. They haven't said no. Which means they are shopping for lower cost providers and still can’t find suckers to do beeper rate. I’d rather deal with flat rates if i have to be away from my own bed in bfe

I can only do it (bare it) 3 days a month I think. No Apple Store or Best Buy near by.

No way I can stay there for 7 days in a row. I like to be near real civilization.

My friends will split it if it works out. It’s divide and conquer at these jobs. I may go up to Georgia for a week and alternate the 1099 gigs.
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So it's 2 mil for 365/24/7 coverage? Or 4 mil? 2 mil doesn't seem good.
 
Coffee PRN said:
So it's 2 mil for 365/24/7 coverage? Or 4 mil? 2 mil doesn't seem good.
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It’s 4 docs splitting it for 2 million a year. Whatever way you want to split it. It’s 2 docs splitting the first 2 weeks.

The other 2 docs splitting the next two weeks. So not on call every day in GA.

light work load though. Only 300 deliveries a year and usual done early in OR early. (So we are talking about the GA job (4 docs/2 million) not every day coverage.

The Florida gig I can get the same deal probably. But I want another 500k to split. For 2.5 million. It’s supplemental pay for me. It’s not intended to be primary source of income

That’s why I have zero interest in even doing it for 7 days a month. Maybe 3 days a month. A like to split these jobs cause it’s bfe. It’s one thing to be at the beach and on beeper. At least I can hang out outside the hospital. It’s another to be in real bfe with nothing to do in a hotel.
 
aneftp said:
It’s 4 docs splitting it for 2 million a year. Whatever way you want to split it. It’s 2 docs splitting the first 2 weeks.

The other 2 docs splitting the next two weeks. So not on call every day in GA.

light work load though. Only 300 deliveries a year and usual done early in OR early. (So we are talking about the GA job (4 docs/2 million) not every day coverage.

The Florida gig I can get the same deal probably. But I want another 500k to split. For 2.5 million. It’s supplemental pay for me. It’s not intended to be primary source of income

That’s why I have zero interest in even doing it for 7 days a month. Maybe 3 days a month. A like to split these jobs cause it’s bfe. It’s one thing to be at the beach and on beeper. At least I can hang out outside the hospital. It’s another to be in real bfe with nothing to do in a hotel.
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4 docs splitting it for 2 mil each? Otherwise 500k each doesn’t really sound that great.
 
Coffee PRN said:
4 docs splitting it for 2 mil each? Otherwise 500k each doesn’t really sound that great.
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It really depends how you look at it. One doc can do one week straight for 500k for the year. Around 38k for the week. Personally I’d prefer 50k a week (thus the 2.5 million offer)

Money is still money. Don’t turn it down if you have a free week (assuming you have 20-25 weeks off from ur regular job)

But if you have 8-10 weeks off. Than your time off is more valuable than trying to make 40k on ur week off.

That’s how I look at things.

It’s an easy job. Out of the Hospital most days by 4-5pm plus a crna as primary

Everyone has 3-4 jobs I know of on the trail.
 
aneftp said:
Personally I’d prefer 50k a week (thus the 2.5 million offer)

Money is still money. Don’t turn it down if you have a free week (assuming you have 20-25 weeks off from ur regular job)
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IDK, money can cloud judgement sometimes.

You sound like you are in your 50’s maybe early 60’s.

If you’ve been crushing it the way you say you are then you should be sitting real pretty in investment returns alone- unless you are a big spender.

A 10 million portfolio in VOO at the beginning of 2024= 2.4 million returns this year so far.

A 5 million portfolio in VOO = 1.2 million so far.

Do you really want to work your arse off and loose out on valuable life outside of work above 50+ y/o if you have had a good career? I guess that’s a personal question, but worth bringing up in these threads.

To me, time away from work far exceeds money once you have achieved financial freedom and have traversed through your 40’s.

The time to work hard and put money away is early in your career… not when you are in your last 5-10 years of work. At least that is the way I see it.
For one, your returns are higher the earlier you are in the market. As you get older in your career, resilience is not what it was when you were up all night at 30 y/o crushing the septic ex-laps and middle of the night AAA’s.

Ease your way into retirement… After 20 years of anesthesia, your interest in retirement/brokerage accounts alone should carry you.

You’d catch me in the caribbean. Quick trip to the islands of the bahamas is super easy where you live. My weeks off would be spent adventuring caribbean islands on a regular basis if I reached financial freedom and lived in Florida at 50+ years old and a stable part time job/locums.

Everyone is different- I get that.

Few pictures from a couple of months ago for interest.
 

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sevoflurane said:
IDK, money can cloud judgement sometimes.

You sound like you are in your 50’s maybe early 60’s.

If you’ve been crushing it the way you say you are then you should be sitting real pretty in investment returns alone- unless you are a big spender.

A 10 million portfolio in VOO at the beginning of 2024= 2.4 million returns this year so far.

A 5 million portfolio in VOO = 1.2 million so far.

Do you really want to work your arse off and loose out on valuable life outside of work above 50+ y/o if you have had a good career? I guess that’s a personal question, but worth bringing up in these threads.

To me, time away from work far exceeds money once you have achieved financial freedom and have traversed through your 40’s.

The time to work hard and put money away is early in your career… not when you are in your last 5-10 years of work. At least that is the way I see it.
For one, your returns are higher the earlier you are in the market. As you get older in your career, resilience is not what it was when you were up all night at 30 y/o crushing the septic ex-laps and middle of the night AAA’s.

Ease your way into retirement… After 20 years of anesthesia, your interest in retirement/brokerage accounts alone should carry you.

You’d catch me in the caribbean. Quick trip to the islands of the bahamas is super easy where you live. My weeks off would be spent adventuring caribbean islands on a regular basis if I reached financial freedom and lived in Florida at 50+ years old and a stable part time job/locums.

Everyone is different- I get that.

Few pictures from a couple of months ago for interest.
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The way gas is these days no reason someone at 30 cant hit 5m liquid by 45 if they know how to invest. Usually they dont and overspend but its possible even with some misteps. That age/nw is tough to beat but shud be the goal for many.
 
Exactly. I would crush out big numbers now if I was 30 y/o and sip margaritas in my beach vacation home at 55.

5 mil should be fairly easy to hit given some discipline. If you are struggling to hit that at 50+ years old, something went sideways (which happens) or there is some lack of financial discipline.
 
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I do agree with @aneftp
530k is realistically closer to 580k MGMA for 2024 (PP/employed)
MGMA is not the be all end all as it trails real numbers usually.
Just a guide.
 
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sevoflurane said:
Exactly. I would crush out big numbers now if I was 30 y/o and sip margaritas in my beach vacation home at 55.

5 mil should be fairly easy to hit given some discipline. If you are struggling to hit that at 50+ years old, something went sideways (which happens) or there is some lack of financial discipline.
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I would just add 5m inflation adjusted will be close to 7.8m for that 30 year old starting attendhood today and hitting 45 in 2039. Friend working in academics is pulling 530 ish not counting signing bonus or generous 45-50k yearly retirement match all of which will likely be increased next year.

Not saying its easy but that comes out to investing 250k but for this person 50k is free money so they have to find a way to add 200 for 15 years getting 9% returns. We all know if you locums or side gigs then sky is limit.
 
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Sevo has basically described most anesthesiologists I know. Even in my VHCOL area, 5-10 MM in accounts = part time life. Depending on circumstances - I saved a lot and was fortunate with index funds and hit it at 45.

Everyone’s different, but for the most part the MDs >55 yo and working full time around me are

supporting extended family
second marriage
catastrophic financial event
really like it/don’t have anything outside medicine
Came to Anes late

Have had a couple 80 yo colleagues who retired and couldn’t find anything else to do.

And sadly have had a couple new CA dx and not living the life they planned - of varying ages
 
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