28% Collections ???

[Eledental]

So what do you all think of this job offer?

The practice is offering me 28% collections, and they say their collection is between 90-96% I've done the math, and come up with some staggering numbers of required production/collection to make $120,000 as a new grad before taxes.

Benefits: med/dent, vision, 401k, 1 yr malpractice. Not sure about lab costs yet.

The office is legit, and everyone is pretty nice. I'm curious as to what most students and dentists think about this proposal. ...??

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[TJNova2011]

So what do you all think of this job offer?

The practice is offering me 28% collections, and they say their collection is between 90-96% I've done the math, and come up with some staggering numbers of required production/collection to make $120,000 as a new grad before taxes.

Benefits: med/dent, vision, 401k, 1 yr malpractice. Not sure about lab costs yet.

The office is legit, and everyone is pretty nice. I'm curious as to what most students and dentists think about this proposal. ...??

Daily minimum?
Collections % is low, but if that's California, more than likely not.

 

[Demeter]

So what do you all think of this job offer?

The practice is offering me 28% collections, and they say their collection is between 90-96% I've done the math, and come up with some staggering numbers of required production/collection to make $120,000 as a new grad before taxes.

Benefits: med/dent, vision, 401k, 1 yr malpractice. Not sure about lab costs yet.

The office is legit, and everyone is pretty nice. I'm curious as to what most students and dentists think about this proposal. ...??

Are there any new grads making 120,000$, anymore?
Are you going to be an employee or an indep contractor?
Do they have enough patient flow to keep you busy 5 days/ week?
Are you going to be seeing any new patients, or do you see only emergency patients?

 

[DrDDSman]

So from my quick math, you would need to produce close to $500k in your first year to be able to gross ~$120k.

I'm pretty curious now, to recent grads/practicing dentists-is this a feasible your first year out?

 

[beannaithe]

Honestly, it seems pretty low. I'm not sure what the going rate of the area you are in is. But 28% of collections is a bit on the low end for a new grad, especially if they are paying you on straight collections. If their collection rate is only 90% - 96%, then your true compensation is really 25.2% (f you assume 90%) to 26.88% (assuming 96%). So, it's much lower then the number that they gave you.

If you'd like to take home $120k/year, then you need to produce $428k your first year out. I have heard that most new grads hit somewhere on the $300k - $400k depending on the office, speed and how well you work.

To put it in perspective further, you need to produce $36k a month to bring home $10k (assuming 100% collections for a 28% compensation rate) and you need to be producing ~$1700/day. Depending on how the office is structured, that can be done. It also depends on the type of procedures that you're completing. Is the office fee for service, medicaid, or primarily insurance based? They all will have different reimbursement rates. Fee for service, $1700 wouldn't be hard to hit on any given day. PPO insurance, also not difficult but you'll be busier. If it's an HMO/medicaid office, it would be difficult to hit $1700 without a very, very busy schedule with complex procedures. What kind of patients would you be seeing? Only emergencies, or all new patients and as many hygiene recalls as you can see?

Also, are you responsible for lab costs??? Do you have a daily minimum? How is your new patient flow in the practice?

This could be a decent offer for a new grad, but you need to ask for some tweaking in the offer. You might want to ask for a guaranteed daily minimum, which shows that the office does believe that you'll be busy enough to warrant having you full time (otherwise, if you don't have a patient in the chair, you don't get paid). #2 - ADJUSTED production (which is all the money that the office expects to collect) as you have no say in how the office collects their money. #3 - you should absolutely not be paying more then your percentage of compensation in lab fee, at this percentage I would try to get no lab fee at all. #4 - Make sure your noncompete agreement isn't crazy.

As far as hitting $500k in your first year out, it's not common but it does happen. Takes a good office, good staff, trusting patients and a very good young doc. I'm first year out of a residency and will probably not hit that this year. It takes a while for patients to get comfortable with you. I don't know of many new grads making $120k in their first year out.

 

[tinman831]

So what do you all think of this job offer?

The practice is offering me 28% collections, and they say their collection is between 90-96% I've done the math, and come up with some staggering numbers of required production/collection to make $120,000 as a new grad before taxes.

Benefits: med/dent, vision, 401k, 1 yr malpractice. Not sure about lab costs yet.

The office is legit, and everyone is pretty nice. I'm curious as to what most students and dentists think about this proposal. ...??

I suspect the 28% is closer to the norm in Cali. I got 28% production my first year out of dental school. Considering it takes a bit longer to collect from patients/insurance companies, usually your negotiated percentage collections should be higher. 32-35% collections is more competitive. Definitely find out about the lab costs. That can significantly eat into your take home numbers. Also do not be afraid to negotiate the terms of the contract if you aren't happy with them. Is this your first offer? Be sure to shop around too. Don't just settle for the first offer that lands in your lap.

 

[bigbadaboom]

28% collection is about right.

I've worked for 20% production, and another place at 22% collection. This is not in California.

I've been offered 30% collection at a California practice.

None of them offered any of the benefits like malpractice, CE or 401k.

 

[Eledental]

Ok, so a little more information as to this opportunity:

28% Collections
NO Lab fees
$510 daily guarantee
401K
Malpractice (maybe just 1st yr?)
CE Courses paid
Medical, Dental, Vision
Pt Base: PPO, FFS, no medicaid/HMO

Apparently the practice divides patients randomly, and gives doctors equal patient "opportunity".

So, does it still sound like a decent offer for a new grad?


Here's a second opportunity I had come my way:
Opportunity #2:
$550 daily guarantee
Medical, Dental, Vision
Pt Base: 70% Medicaid, 20% PPO, 10% FFS
50% Pediatrics, 50% Adults
From what I understand, and to my mathematics, the office needs to be cranking out a booty-load of patients/day in order to get over the daily guarantee....does that sound right?

 

[smiledr6]

Wow!! Can't believe these offers. I have been out awhile now, recently sold practice in NY and relocated to Florida. These numbers seem very low. Have never heard of an offer less than 33% collections in NY/Florida. Same rate for labs. I have extensive experience, implants, Masters level esthetic dentist, IV sedation. Minimum offered 36% with sliding scale to 40% collections at $2500 day production threshold. $725/day guarantee. Have never worked for less.Avg production 58-80 k mos FFS/PPO. I realize you guys are new grads but 28% is absurd. Hygienist I work with earn 30% collections. I think you guys are also selling yourself short with a goal of $120k/yr income. With your many yrs of Schooling/loans, I dont find it unreasonable to expect 150-175K/yr. Stick to your guns and shoot for a min 33%. With experience, you should easily earn 200k-275K. Keep your heads up. Things will work out in the long run. Could be worse. Could have gone to Podiatry school.

 

[bigbadaboom]

Wow!! Can't believe these offers. I have been out awhile now, recently sold practice in NY and relocated to Florida. These numbers seem very low. Have never heard of an offer less than 33% collections in NY/Florida. Same rate for labs. I have extensive experience, implants, Masters level esthetic dentist, IV sedation. Minimum offered 36% with sliding scale to 40% collections at $2500 day production threshold. $725/day guarantee. Have never worked for less.Avg production 58-80 k mos FFS/PPO. I realize you guys are new grads but 28% is absurd. Hygienist I work with earn 30% collections. I think you guys are also selling yourself short with a goal of $120k/yr income. With your many yrs of Schooling/loans, I dont find it unreasonable to expect 150-175K/yr. Stick to your guns and shoot for a min 33%. With experience, you should easily earn 200k-275K. Keep your heads up. Things will work out in the long run. Could be worse. Could have gone to Podiatry school.

it's location man
400 - 500 without benefit is what a new grad can expect in California

same for Texas but no state income tax and lower cost of living

 

[mike3kgt]

Ok, so a little more information as to this opportunity:

28% Collections
NO Lab fees
$510 daily guarantee
401K
Malpractice (maybe just 1st yr?)
CE Courses paid
Medical, Dental, Vision
Pt Base: PPO, FFS, no medicaid/HMO

Apparently the practice divides patients randomly, and gives doctors equal patient "opportunity".

So, does it still sound like a decent offer for a new grad?


Here's a second opportunity I had come my way:
Opportunity #2:
$550 daily guarantee
Medical, Dental, Vision
Pt Base: 70% Medicaid, 20% PPO, 10% FFS
50% Pediatrics, 50% Adults
From what I understand, and to my mathematics, the office needs to be cranking out a booty-load of patients/day in order to get over the daily guarantee....does that sound right?

Definitely #1. $500/day (5 days a week) = $120k yearly ... great offer in this economy.

"Pt Base: 70% Medicaid, 20% PPO, 10% FFS" = means 99% medicaid and 1% other.

 

[beannaithe]

Yeah, def #1. If you're getting a minimum daily guarantee, then it's not a bad offer at all. You're not responsible for lab fees, which also is incredibly good.

Run from #2. 70% Medicaid means pretty much all Medicaid, plus if you're trying to hit you $550/day threshold on a Medicaid scale you'll be having to make lots and lots of treatment.

Overall, #1 is not a bad offer when you consider everything.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Ok, so a little more information as to this opportunity:

28% Collections
NO Lab fees
$510 daily guarantee
401K
Malpractice (maybe just 1st yr?)
CE Courses paid
Medical, Dental, Vision
Pt Base: PPO, FFS, no medicaid/HMO

Apparently the practice divides patients randomly, and gives doctors equal patient "opportunity".

So, does it still sound like a decent offer for a new grad?


Here's a second opportunity I had come my way:
Opportunity #2:
$550 daily guarantee
Medical, Dental, Vision
Pt Base: 70% Medicaid, 20% PPO, 10% FFS
50% Pediatrics, 50% Adults
From what I understand, and to my mathematics, the office needs to be cranking out a booty-load of patients/day in order to get over the daily guarantee....does that sound right?

How many days are you actually working per month with both #1 and #2?

Mind you, they have no need to keep you in the clinic if they are not busy... they will just send you home for the day, or worse, cut your days down.

Working for 28% of collections... I guess nobody pays on productions anymore?

 

[mike3kgt]

Working for 28% of collections... I guess nobody pays on productions anymore?

Nope... and they'll find every way possible to drag out your quarterly % check and deduct everything from it. Don't be surprised if you never see that actual 28% beyond your daily guarantee.

Great for the employer because it guarantees that the ball is in your court, terrible for the associate because you rely upon accountants to calculate % that favor the owners, front desk staff to seek proper payment, and a possible collections department that will take 50% of what's owed.

Still, with that being said, stay away from practices like #2 unless you have no other choice.

 

[djeffreyt]

I agree that if you go with #2 you'll see 70% medicaid but do work on 98% medicaid if you are a newer grad. It doesn't take long to start being able to sell yourself and your dentistry, but patients look for either experience or confidence when they have to foot a part of the bill so your PPO and cash patients at practice #2 will be less likely to trust you until their first recall with you unless you exude confidence in your treatment planning. The Medicaid patients usually don't pay anything so they just say ok so long as it's not a root canal on six teeth. So, even though we all hate the low fees of medicaid, not having to sell yourself or the dentistry can make having medicaid patients on your schedule a huge benefit when you first start out.

I'd say another important thing to look at is fees. What are the fees for crowns, RCT, fillings, at these practices. If practice 1 charges $666 for a crown as opposed to $1000, that's a big difference in the amount of work you need to do to make your minimum each day. Assuming at practice 1 you work 20 days a month, you need to produce about $2000 a day to just break minimum. But if the fees are low, then it's the difference between seeing 10 patients a day or 15 patients a day to reach the same numbers.

I disagree with an earlier post though. In cali the going rate for a new grad is $400-500 min a day (usually only for 3 months), but Texas starts at about $500 and goes up for new grads. My first job was $550 minimum daily.

 

[Demeter]

In cali the going rate for a new grad is $400-500 min a day (usually only for 3 months), but Texas starts at about $500 and goes up for new grads. My first job was $550 minimum daily.

This post was taken from Dentaltown:
I'd like to thank the Dentaltown community for being wonderfully supportive. I received several helpful private messages which will hopefully lead to some opportunities. I guess like a lot of my fellow classmates I was in panic mode but this year in particular does seem to be a bit brutal for recent grads. Recruiters have even pointed out the decrease in available opportunities in many areas (One recruiter said don't even mention the word "Austin").


Cities like Houston, Dallas & Atlanta used to be wide open. After many years have of having a huge influx of new grads from NYU, BU etc it has become very saturated here as well. I love Texas, and there still may be better opportunities here, then you may find in CA, but especially with new medicaid changes , Texas is no longer the gold rush for new grads that it used to be.

 

[djeffreyt]

This post was taken from Dentaltown:
I'd like to thank the Dentaltown community for being wonderfully supportive. I received several helpful private messages which will hopefully lead to some opportunities. I guess like a lot of my fellow classmates I was in panic mode but this year in particular does seem to be a bit brutal for recent grads. Recruiters have even pointed out the decrease in available opportunities in many areas (One recruiter said don't even mention the word "Austin").


Cities like Houston, Dallas & Atlanta used to be wide open. After many years have of having a huge influx of new grads from NYU, BU etc it has become very saturated here as well. I love Texas, and there still may be better opportunities here, then you may find in CA, but especially with new medicaid changes , Texas is no longer the gold rush for new grads that it used to be.

Thanks for the update Demeter. I'm in Dallas right now, and you're right, market has changed a lot. But I still have friends who are moving here who graduated last year. The latest one moved here this month after a "you rich b----" whirlwind tour of europe and the states for the last 6 months, so no experience since dental school and is definitely making more than $500 a day as her minimum. All the other 2011 grads who moved here in the last 6 months are doing $500+ too.

I'm sure there are less jobs than 2 years ago, and maybe the daily minimum is overall lower, but it feels the same to me based upon the most recent grads I've seen out here.

 

[djeffreyt]

Gentlemen, ladies, Doctors,
You're all looking at this as a static problem, the dollar amounts of all those percentages are fluid, especially the lab costs. The simplest way to look at any offer is to fire up the old Excel spreadsheet and run a Net Present Value calculation, and make sure you extend the calculation out for five years even if you don't plan on spending that amount of time in your first practice.

You're right that this is a simple way to look at it, but I don't think it's really the best way to look at it, nor am I sure this method really works for this situation as easily as you make it sound.

You're right this isn't a static issue, but it's also almost impossible to actually estimate what exactly you will make in this profession. You could have a minimum, but that isn't how much you make necessarily. Some months you may only make your minimum, but often you will break it and do better, but it's not for sure. Your minimum also usually goes away after 3 months, so after that you might have a month you make $20,000, or a month you make $4000. You can't be sure what will happen.

You're also right that lab costs will change and vary, but how exactly you calculate that variance is something I'm unclear of.

Finally there are the intangibles and the changes that will happen. For example, a major factor in deciding what job offer to take early in your career are things like: Who is the patient population, what kind of work is done at this office (Bread and Butter? Pedo? Removable? Aesthetics? Full Mouth Reconstructions?), what is the average patients seen daily? Does this practice have a high or low monthly new patients, is their an older dentist to learn from? Are their specialists who work there to learn from? Do you and the existing dentist have similar diagnosis and treatment mentalities? Do you work 4 days? 6 days?

While I wouldn't argue that there is probably a statistical way to look at the income and investments in a void of everything else in order to see monetarily whether one vs. the other is financially better, it really oversimplifies the decision of which is the best place to go for your first job. And like I said, you really don't know what your income will be every month. My income from one month to another has varied by as much as $15,000., so I'm just not sure how you can figure honestly what you can make each year.