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You will need more mid-low tiers, as top tiers are dicey w/ a below avg GPA. UMD is pretty selective about GPA (avg is 3.8) and you are OOS so I'd cut them.
I'm all for going big but the Pritzer, Penn's and Yale's of the world are ALOT to ask for with a 3.3 GPA no matter who you are. The upward trend will help a good bit as is the fact your sGPA is at least very close to the 10th percentile of alot of the big names you crave.
You guys really think the GPA being below the 10th percentile warrants a rejection from Top Tiers? Yes there's a discrepancy, but it was alleviated by a recent upward trend. Coupling that with a 44-equivalent MCAT (so a LizzyM of a 77), LGBT, and strong ECs, it's safe to say she can apply wherever she wants.
Of course, it's always better to apply to state schools and other medical schools that wouldn't weed her out with her strong MCAT. But schools like WashU, Pritzker, Northwestern and Penn should definitely be on her list, both for strong academics and for diversity.
I think the OP should absolutely apply, 100%!You guys really think the GPA being below the 10th percentile warrants a rejection from Top Tiers? Yes there's a discrepancy, but it was alleviated by a recent upward trend. Coupling that with a 44-equivalent MCAT (so a LizzyM of a 77), LGBT, and strong ECs, it's safe to say she can apply wherever she wants.
Of course, it's always better to apply to state schools and other medical schools that wouldn't weed her out with her strong MCAT. But schools like WashU, Pritzker, Northwestern and Penn should definitely be on her list, both for strong academics and for diversity.
LizzyM stats are not all that useful for apps with discordant stats like the OP
Note I included some top tiers on my list. But Penn Uchicago and Yale are absolute best of the best stuff; they really can be super picky with whom they want. You also have to remember Op has been out of college for 4 years you would expect there ECs to be a lot better than your generic 20 year old college junior applying.
Upward trends are all well and good but note the median gpa at penn is 3.92; thats a 4 year trend of greatness not 1. The 10th percentile gpa at those schools is around a 3.7; Op isn't just below it they are a little over 0.4 below it
Like I said though OP can apply to some top 20 schools(in fact I recommend they do) I'm just hesitant to recommend Penn and Harvard types
26, female, Caucasian, LGBT. NJ resident, living in PA.
3.3 cGPA, 3.5 sGPA, 527 MCAT
Graduated 2011 from fairly well regarded liberal arts college. Strong personal statement and secondary essays. Took 20 BCPM credits at a state school this past year (4.0 post-grad GPA) while working full time and studying for the MCAT in the spring
If accepted out of state, I’d be relocating with my partner, so I’ve up to this point limited my applications to places where she has friends/family and could easily find employment in her field. I’ve only applied to 12 schools (complete at most the first week of August) and I’m worried I greatly overestimated how much my MCAT would compensate for my lackluster GPA. Hoping to get some honest advice about my app, school list, and where else I should start looking to apply even though it’s getting to be late in the game.
- 5000 hours non-clinical employment
- 2000 clinical volunteering hours (includes 1700 hours community health AmeriCorps position)
- 1200 research hours (undergraduate thesis, two summer internships, no publications)
- 800 hours hobbies (ultimate Frisbee, illustration; significantly underreported hours in AMCAS, probably closer to 1400…)
- 500 hours non-clinical volunteering
- 500 hours unique extracurricular in undergrad, significantly underreported these hours in AMCAS, more like 800-1000…)
- 300 hours teaching (elementary science education)
Current application list:
- Temple
- Jefferson
- Cooper Rowan
- University of Maryland
- Boston University
- Tufts
- Dartmouth
- Mayo
- Pittsburgh
- Pritzker
- Perelman
- Yale
It's an absolute bloodbath for IS applicants too!If you're not a MD resident, I'd write that off...it's a hard state for OOSers.
I agree with you that discordant stats are hard to advise, but this applicant may be one of those exceptions that makes it. The MCAT is godly, and the extracurriculars are excellent. That's why I don't shy away from any of the top tiers (given that there is a realistic base), because you just don't know which ones will bite. There is little difference (if any) in competitiveness/selectivity between Penn/Chicago/Yale and some of the other schools you listed (Columbia, Cornell, Sinai, NW, Vandy). All of their stats/acceptance rates are comparable. Maybe you're drawing an arbitrary line between top 10 vs. 20 when differentiating "types" of top schools?
Your MCAT and activities are excellent. Your GPA is the weakest link in your application. Still I would not discourage you from applying to big names.
I think what you should do is apply to a broad base of realistic options (state schools, low tiers etc.), and then add the big names. Why is Rutgers not on your list if you are from NJ?
Edit: Also Feinberg actively recruits LGBT applicants, so look into them.
Hey, MCAT twin! Yeah, my list is top heavy for sure... I had a hard time finding lower tier schools in places both my partner and I would be happy living. They all seem to be in the burbs. And dang, I thought I'd read UMD was one of the more OOS friendly state schools. Any other state schools that you think might look more favorably upon my stats?You will need more mid-low tiers, as top tiers are dicey w/ a below avg GPA. UMD is pretty selective about GPA (avg is 3.8) and you are OOS so I'd cut them.
For starters you absolutely need the 2 NJ schools if you don't want to run the risk of reapplying.
Well can't speak to whether you'll accept the location but these publics are more friendly to OOS:Hey, MCAT twin! Yeah, my list is top heavy for sure... I had a hard time finding lower tier schools in places both my partner and I would be happy living. They all seem to be in the burbs. And dang, I thought I'd read UMd was one of the more OOS friendly state schools. Any other state schools that you think might look more favorably upon my stats?
Cooper Rowan is actually NJ's third public MD school, graduating its first class this year.I think the OP should absolutely apply, 100%!
But applying and expecting an acceptance from such schools are 2 different stories. IMHO, OP is rolling the dice; which is good, provided you have adequate safeties. The OP's original list was severely lacking in the latter category, with a couple super low-yield schools as the only fallback, and no IS publics.
Hey, MCAT twin! Yeah, my list is top heavy for sure... I had a hard time finding lower tier schools in places both my partner and I would be happy living. They all seem to be in the burbs. And dang, I thought I'd read UMd was one of the more OOS friendly state schools. Any other state schools that you think might look more favorably upon my stats?
Well, I wouldn't really call it an upward trend, probably better described as a moderate rise in my Sophomore year followed by a plateau in my junior and possibly a dip in my Senior. Not exactly what you'd want to see. Grades in my pre-req courses are nearly straight A's aside from a B+ in O-chem II, if that's a good sign at all. Northwestern is now solidly on my 'will apply' list, and I'll be sure to look into the others! If I have the bulk of this second batch of secondaries in by September 1st, would you say that's still early enough for consideration by most schools?Time to work on the self-esteem. Nobody is going to sneeze at you with an MCAT score that's perfect. Your ECs hrs are wonderful as well...in the category I call "killer".
If you're not a MD resident, I'd write that off...it's a hard state for OOSers.
I would add Case, Northwestern, Vandy, all NYC schools, SUNY SB, U VT, Keck, Emory, Stanford, Harvard, Loyola, Tulane, U Miami and Drexel.
Do you have an upward GPA trend? That always helps.
- Temple
- Jefferson
- Cooper Rowan
- University of Maryland
- Boston University
- Tufts
- Dartmouth
- Mayo
- Pittsburgh
- Pritzker
- Perelman
- Yale
Well can't speak to whether you'll accept the location but these publics are more friendly to OOS:
Michigan (semi-urban/suburban)
Ohio State (urban)
Penn State (suburban, though Hershey rocks)
Vermont (suburban/rural)
W. Va. (suburban)
You could probably chance the UCs, though they are oversaturated with apps.
Well, I wouldn't really call it an upward trend, probably better described as a moderate rise in my Sophomore year followed by a plateau in my junior and possibly a dip in my Senior. Not exactly what you'd want to see. Grades in my pre-req courses are nearly straight A's aside from a B+ in O-chem II, if that's a good sign at all. Northwestern is now solidly on my 'will apply' list, and I'll be sure to look into the others! If I have the bulk of this second batch of secondaries in by September 1st, would you say that's still early enough for consideration by most schools?
Well can't speak to whether you'll accept the location but these publics are more friendly to OOS:
Michigan (semi-urban/suburban)
Ohio State (urban)
Penn State (suburban, though Hershey rocks)
Vermont (suburban/rural)
W. Va. (suburban)
You could probably chance the UCs, though they are oversaturated with apps.
OP has the classic scary dissonance that leaves committees wondering which of the usual reasons caused the low grades.
She will have better results with an answer that fully explains which reason and gives evidence that it is resolved.
Add Wash U no matter what...
You seem confident that someone's going to give me money and I like that. I'd also gladly take a free ride cause my car is busted. Ba dum tssssss.Not sure there could be many better places for LGBT than Burlington, VT....IF......you are white. One of the coolest, and most progressive, little cities in North America. And they take more OOS than IS (by far). Wonder if UVM would give the OP a free ride.
There is a short differential for a person who gets a perfect MCAT score doing below average in class.I wish I had a better explanation for my grades than that I simply wasn't ready for college when I went, but that's mostly it. I wasn't ready to work hard because I wasn't sure yet what I was working hard for. Not an excuse by any means, but it's a lot easier to push yourself to excel when you have a tangible goal in mind. Confidence was also a major issue; my undergrad had discussion-heavy curriculum in all departments and an obnoxiously smart student body, and I struggled with class participation which impacted my grades significantly. In the years since, I've figured out what I'm good at and what I want to do which translated into the motivation I needed to start meeting my potential. I just wish I'd been at that point my Freshman year! I've read on SDN and elsewhere to not address poor grades in your application unless its a short term dip and you have a particularly good reason. Should I mention my uGPA at all in secondaries from this point, or would you recommend against it as well?
You seem confident that someone's going to give me money and I like that. I'd also gladly take a free ride cause my car is busted. Ba dum tssssss.
There is a short differential for a person who gets a perfect MCAT score doing below average in class.
If you don't tell us, we are left to speculate.
LOI's are creepy at this point.Well yes that does make sense. And any ADCOM familiar with my undergrad might assume I partied a little too hard...
A few follow up questions if you're willing to answer!
1) Would the explanation above assuage concerns at all? I'd hope lack of motivation is a more reassuring explanation than overindulging in college nightlife.
2)For schools I've already submitted secondaries to without a mention of grades, would a letter of interest later in the season (assuming no IIs, which is likely) be an appropriate place to address that, so long as I'm also mentioning new/continuing activities since I submitted?
.If your "fairly well regarded LAC" is top 15 or higher (Swat, Haverford, Wesleyan, etc) then that may help a little with the grades explanation. Perhaps not so much if top 30-45 (Dickinson, F&M, etc).
Swat and Haverford aren't just fairly well regarded, they're hella well regarded. My school opts out of submitting data to US News, so it's out of the top 50 as far as those rankings are concerned. It's better known on the West Coast, where I haven't applied at all
Rad! Well here's to hoping you and I are thinking of the same school.Well, if it's the first one that comes to mind from that hint, a few out there might consider your school one of the best (and toughest!) in the country.
I wish I had a better explanation for my grades than that I simply wasn't ready for college when I went, but that's mostly it. I wasn't ready to work hard because I wasn't sure yet what I was working hard for. Not an excuse by any means, but it's a lot easier to push yourself to excel when you have a tangible goal in mind. Confidence was also a major issue; my undergrad had discussion-heavy curriculum in all departments and an obnoxiously smart student body, and I struggled with class participation which impacted my grades significantly. In the years since, I've figured out what I'm good at and what I want to do which translated into the motivation I needed to start meeting my potential. I just wish I'd been at that point my Freshman year! I've read on SDN and elsewhere to not address poor grades in your application unless it's a short term dip and you have a particularly good reason (illness, etc.). Should I mention my uGPA at all in secondaries from this point, or would you recommend against it as well?
EDIT: also thanks, will add Wash U to the list!
The odds were not in your favor! I guess "discussion heavy curriculum" and "obnoxiously smart" describes most liberal arts colleges, doesn't it?I'm like 93.4% sure you went to Wellesley College based on this description.
The odds were not in your favor! I guess "discussion heavy curriculum" and "obnoxiously smart" describes most liberal arts colleges, doesn't it?
Add Wash U no matter what...
I'm curious why you recommend WashU so emphatically. Is it because they love perfect MCATs and have money to throw?
Yes. WashU has a street rep of being absurdly numbers-centric. I believe their average MCAT is 38. To put that into perspective: one out of every two students scored 38 or above!!I'm curious why you recommend WashU so emphatically. Is it because they love perfect MCATs and have money to throw?
Of the applicants we have interviewed that have gotten into Wash U, I can confidently say that a very high MCAT score is a more significant component of their evaluation. In other words, much is forgiven for such a high score at Wash U.I'm curious why you recommend WashU so emphatically. Is it because they love perfect MCATs and have money to throw?
Of the applicants we have interviewed that have gotten into Wash U, I can confidently say that a very high MCAT score is a more significant component of their evaluation. In other words, much is forgiven for such a high score at Wash U.
I'm just pointing out that much is forgiven for a big MCAT at Wash U. I say this as someone who has seen overlap between our schools. I am not denigrating their gpa (far from it!).Obviously what you are saying is true but I guess I'll thrown in is worth noting the 10th percentile GPA is a 3.69 which is probably the 3rd highest in the country and has been that way for years unlike alot of top 20 schools who's 10th percentile GPA has only very recently shot up. There are clearly top 20 schools which emphasize different things and it is seen in their 10th percentile GPA being lower to some extent(Duke and Columbia as examples). So is it so that maybe the golden ticket for WASHU is all about numbers not just MCATs(and the only reason I bring any of this up is because it directly relates to the OP with the jackpot MCAT and a middling GPA)?