3.55/499 HYP Grad

[Dr_OneDay]

Hello, OP. I'm a Cornell grad, and I know exactly where you're coming from. My MCAT score was fairly decent (506), but my GPA is 3.05, and my advisor told me to give up the allopathic dream and just go DO.

While DO is perfectly respectable, I don't want to give up the allopathic dream. I'm taking two gap years and plan on reapplying for the next cycle if/when I don't get in on my first try (I believe in miracles).

My advice to you is try to take a gap year if you can and bring up your MCAT score (official practice exams, Khan Academy, and Kaplan) and to hope for the best but be prepared for the worst (reapplying). Good luck.

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[mr.mkitty]

I'm not trying to be condenscing, and assuming the OP is not a troll.. How do HYP grads get less that even a 502 on the MCAT having actually studied?

 

[efle]

In a student body that size churning out that many premeds there are going to be low scores

 

[LuluLovesMe]

I'm not trying to be condenscing, and assuming the OP is not a troll.. How do HYP grads get less that even a 502 on the MCAT having actually studied?

Because HYP is not all that it's hyped up to be.

 

[efle]

Because HYP is not all that it's hyped up to be.

 

[PugsAndHugs]

Out of curioisty OP, what'd you score on the SAT?

 

[Doug Underhill]

Could test anxiety be an issue?

 

[ZedsDed]

Considering our average student applying (not even accepted) has a median MCAT of a 35... OP is probably trolling.

I think you're mistaken there. AFAIK 33-35 has been the average mcat of accepted applicants for years from HYP.

 

[ZedsDed]

Because HYP is not all that it's hyped up to be.

I'm sure all three of those schools offer an excellent education.

 

[ZedsDed]

Out of curioisty OP, what'd you score on the SAT?

OP already said he had a low SAT score for Harvard. I wonder if we've get a legacy applicant on our hands.

 

[GrapesofRath]

OP already said he had a low SAT score for Harvard. I wonder if we've get a legacy applicant on our hands.

In fairness a "low" score for Harvard is something like a 2110 which is still top 1-2 percentile

 

[ZedsDed]

In fairness a "low" score for Harvard is something like a 2110 which is still top 1-2 percentile

Haha yeah, true that.

 

[dabossofmississippi]

Hi everyone, I really appreciate all of you taking time out of your day to comment on my situation. I just thought I would address a few things that keep coming up:

1) I am not a troll. I am getting a little tired of saying this. Some of you need to dismantle the greek god you have in your mind of the typical Harvard student. Yes, the average MCAT of our successful applicants is something like a 34-35. That is 2.5-3.5 points over the national median for med school matriculants, and a damn good score, but hardly superhuman.

2) My SAT score was bottom of the barrel for Harvard (<2000), so I suppose it would be fair to say that "legacy" points factored into it. Though I also had other compelling and unique aspects to my application. I can't explain why I am doing so poorly on the MCAT, if I could I wouldn't be here.

3) I have spent the last week researching DO schools and UMass, and I am a little embarrassed of the pettiness that I displayed here.

Thank you everyone for your comments, positive or negative.

 

[efle]

Legacy points confirmed xD

 

[soccermac42]

Thanks for your input but I'd rather not be the first HYP grad in the country to attend a DO school. I know my chances are slim, but what do you think of my list?

Too good for DO school but you have less than 50 percent MCAT? Hmm intresting.

 

[soccermac42]

3.55 is not impressive for Harvard or Yale. It's probably around average, maybe. It's better at Princeton, but still not stellar (I would consider 3.75+ at Princeton to be stellar).

Agree sounds like grade inflation to me compared to the MCAT. Idk though.

 

[gyngyn]

There are people from HYP who go to DO programs pretty much every single year

Princeton recommends consideration of DO schools (especially re-applicants).
http://www.princeton.edu/hpa/applicants/reapplicants/2015-Reapplicant-Guide.pdf

 

[efle]

"Among Princeton applicants, the mean science GPA in recent years is 3.53, overall GPA 3.55, and MCAT 11.2 VR, 12.2 PS and 12.2 BS."

Wow a 35.6 mean MCAT! And with only a 3.5 avg GPA

 

[ZedsDed]

"Among Princeton applicants, the mean science GPA in recent years is 3.53, overall GPA 3.55, and MCAT 11.2 VR, 12.2 PS and 12.2 BS."

Wow a 35.6 mean MCAT! And with only a 3.5 avg GPA

I know right? Princeton produces some damn impressive applicants. Now where was that one post?

Because HYP is not all that it's hyped up to be.

 

[GrapesofRath]

If people are wondering about other schools and their "average" applicant

Emory: median applicant has a 32-33
http://www.career.emory.edu/images/prehealth_documents/Copy of AMCAS2015Chart with only admits.pdf

WashU: I believe median is around a 33

Cornell: 3/4 have 30+ 1/4 have a 36+
https://www.career.cornell.edu/resources/upload/applicant_guide_v2014.pdf

UCLA: 39/139 apply with a 35+ . 3/4 have a 30+
http://www.career.ucla.edu/Portals/...2013 Medical School Admissions Statistics.pdf


And in comparison, as an example of a less known school, James Madison 5/221 apply with a 36+, 33/221 with a 32+, 95/221 with a 29+. If it matters to anyone I believe JMU's average SAT is around 1150, 75th percentile 1250. These Princeton, Cornell types probably have 1480 type averages.

https://www.jmu.edu/iihhs/_files/MDaccept02.pdf

 

[efle]

WashU median is in the 33-35 bin but I've never seen a more exact value. Can also add Vandy was a 31.7 average iirc

 

[Lawpy]

WashU median is in the 33-35 bin but I've never seen a more exact value. Can also add Vandy was a 31.7 average iirc

I would expect WashU and Vandy MCAT medians to be at least a 36 because of intense weedout process that happens in the prereqs.

 

[ZedsDed]

I would expect WashU and Vandy MCAT medians to be at least a 36 because of intense weedout process that happens in the prereqs.

How intense are we talking? A 36 would be a 97th %tile median.

If their undergraduate admissions committee is as obsessed with high SAT scores as the med school is with high MCAT scores then that would make sense.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I would expect WashU and Vandy MCAT medians to be at least a 36 because of intense weedout process that happens in the prereqs.

Uhhh no

 

[Lawpy]

Uhhh no

How intense are we talking? A 36 would be a 97th %tile median.

If their undergraduate admissions committee is as obsessed with high SAT scores as the med school is with high MCAT scores then that would make sense.

If you take in a class of students with high SAT/ACTs and high GPAs and viciously weed them out with insanely challenging introductory courses/prereqs, the resulting students who survived and succeeded in the weedout will do very well on the MCAT, meaning that the reported MCAT medians should be a lot higher than a 33.

 

[ZedsDed]

If you take in a class of students with high SAT/ACTs and high GPAs and viciously weed them out with insanely challenging introductory courses/prereqs, the resulting students who survived and succeeded in the weedout will do very well on the MCAT, meaning that the reported MCAT medians should be a lot higher than a 33.

Again, what is "vicious weedout?" I'm never sure what this means for private schools. If we're talking a bunch of 2200+ students, 5/6 of which receive a B or less, then sure.

 

[GrapesofRath]

If you take in a class of students with high SAT/ACTs and high GPAs and viciously weed them out with insanely challenging introductory courses/prereqs, the resulting students who survived and succeeded in the weedout will do very well on the MCAT, meaning that the reported MCAT medians should be a lot higher than a 33.

I don't see how this is a debate. Look at the link that WASHU sends out for their applicants. 53% of the people who applied to medical school had 33+. About 1/4 who applied to medical school from WASHU had about 1/4. That's not anywhere close to saying the median should be 36+. You'll notice the same thing at schools like Cornell: about 25-30% apply with 35+ scores. This is way different than saying the median applicant has a 36+ from there.

Bottom line; competition is tough at all top schools. Competition is tough at many State U's. The idea that intense weeding out only occurs at WashU and Vandy and not most top private schools, is well, misguided.

 

[ZedsDed]

The idea that intense weeding out only occurs at WashU and Vandy and not most top private schools, is well, misguided.

I'm assuming you aren't talking about Stanford, Harvard, Brown, etc.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I'm assuming you aren't talking about Stanford, Harvard, Brown, etc.

I've been down this road of debate many times before. I don't really want to get into it again, but bottom line I tend to disagree with these hoards of pre-meds who think they magically have it worse at WashU then at Stanford or Harvard or Princeton.

The fact that Princeton's MCAT average is close to 36 for their applicants while WashU's median is around a 33(I know comparing medians to means isn't the best thing but it's the best we got) should say something to people about the kind of competition you are dealing with at Princeton. All top private schools are very very competitive. People who whine about how "easy" it is at Harvard because the most common grade given out for ALL classes is an A(including non-science classes), I would encourage them to actually look at the pre-req classes at a school like Harvard, Princeton or Yale and try taking one their themselves. The median's for those classes will be B's at those schools. And like I said, the median MCAT score of an applicant who gets past the weed out process and applies at WashU will be a 33. At Princeton the average will be a 35-36. Whether or not you want to argue Princeton has it much harder than WashU I don't know and it really doesn't matter to me(my guess is it's relatively similar), I just don't agree with any of this "oh these very top schools have it easier" talk.

Now the one exception you might make is Brown. That is a school which used to have(idk if they still do) policies like if you fail a class it won't show up on your transcript so it encourages someone who isn't doing great to just not show up to a final and automatically fail. I believe gyngyn even has said Brown is famous for their grade inflation to the ADCOMs eyes.

 

[Lawpy]

Again, what is "vicious weedout?" I'm never sure what this means for private schools. If we're talking a bunch of 2200+ students, 5/6 of which receive a B or less, then sure.

I don't see how this is a debate. Look at the link that WASHU sends out for their applicants. 53% of the people who applied to medical school had 33+. About 1/4 who applied to medical school from WASHU had about 1/4. That's not anywhere close to saying the median should be 36+. You'll notice the same thing at schools like Cornell: about 25-30% apply with 35+ scores. This is way different than saying the median applicant has a 36+ from there.

Bottom line; competition is tough at all top schools. Competition is tough at many State U's. The idea that intense weeding out only occurs at WashU and Vandy and not most top private schools, is well, misguided.

Something is seriously amiss here so let me break it down.

Consider a university (state or private) that only accepts college applicants with very high SAT/ACT scores and high GPAs. This university places very difficult professors for teaching prereqs and courses are designed in such a way that the average score is set to a D. With a class of already high-scoring students, breaking a B/A is difficult. Because medical schools expect A's in prereqs wherever you go, self-selection happens and those who do get A's in prereqs will succeed in this prereq route and score very high on the MCAT. Taking into account of these students who all emerged from this route, the median MCAT should be very high.

This can be anywhere, but because WashU, Vandy, Princeton, JHU, MIT, UChicago etc impose such very severe selection processes and grade-deflation methods, it is only reasonable to expect their median MCAT to be high. Even speaking most generally, the median MCAT of students from competitive schools would be expected to be above a 30.

So, from what it seems, an MCAT median bin of a 33-35 for WashU and a 31 for Vandy would suggest that even people who got selected against in the rigorous prereqs still take the MCAT and do worse as a result.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Something is seriously amiss here so let me break it down.

Consider a university (state or private) that only accepts college applicants with very high SAT/ACT scores and high GPAs. This university places very difficult professors for teaching prereqs and courses are designed in such a way that the average score is set to a D. With a class of already high-scoring students, breaking a B/A is difficult. Because medical schools expect A's in prereqs wherever you go, self-selection happens and those who do get A's in prereqs will succeed in this prereq route and score very high on the MCAT. Taking into account of these students who all emerged from this route, the median MCAT should be very high.

This can be anywhere, but because WashU, Vandy, Princeton, JHU, MIT, UChicago etc impose such very severe selection processes and grade-deflation methods, it is only reasonable to expect their median MCAT to be high. Even speaking most generally, the median MCAT of students from competitive schools would be expected to be above a 30.

So, from what it seems, an MCAT median bin of a 33-35 for WashU and a 31 for Vandy would suggest that even people who got selected against in the rigorous prereqs still take the MCAT and do worse as a result.

I don't really understand what you are trying to say at all.

A 33 is a very good score. It won't get most people into a top 20 school but that's kind of the point; that's why top 20s are so hard to get into. Most, even top students, won't get in. If a schools median is a 33 that in no way implies they are doing worse on the MCAT than they should; it simply shows how hard a 36 is to get and how top notch Princeton students are for averaging it

 

[dabossofmississippi]

I've been down this road of debate many times before. I don't really want to get into it again, but bottom line I tend to disagree with these hoards of pre-meds who think they magically have it worse at WashU then at Stanford or Harvard or Princeton.

The fact that Princeton's MCAT average is close to 36 for their applicants while WashU's median is around a 33(I know comparing medians to means isn't the best thing but it's the best we got) should say something to people about the kind of competition you are dealing with at Princeton. All top private schools are very very competitive. People who whine about how "easy" it is at Harvard because the most common grade given out for ALL classes is an A(including non-science classes), I would encourage them to actually look at the pre-req classes at a school like Harvard, Princeton or Yale and try taking one their themselves. The median's for those classes will be B's at those schools. And like I said, the median MCAT score of an applicant who gets past the weed out process and applies at WashU will be a 33. At Princeton the average will be a 35-36. Whether or not you want to argue Princeton has it much harder than WashU I don't know and it really doesn't matter to me(my guess is it's relatively similar), I just don't agree with any of this "oh these very top schools have it easier" talk.

Now the one exception you might make is Brown. That is a school which used to have(idk if they still do) policies like if you fail a class it won't show up on your transcript so it encourages someone who isn't doing great to just not show up to a final and automatically fail. I believe gyngyn even has said Brown is famous for their grade inflation to the ADCOMs eyes.

I don't want to get into a debate, but there are certainly plenty of prereqs at Harvard and Stanford (I have family/friends who go there) that have B+/A- averages. It's all a matter of picking the right professors.

 

[ZedsDed]

I've been down this road of debate many times before. I don't really want to get into it again, but bottom line I tend to disagree with these hoards of pre-meds who think they magically have it worse at WashU then at Stanford or Harvard or Princeton.

The fact that Princeton's MCAT average is close to 36 for their applicants while WashU's median is around a 33(I know comparing medians to means isn't the best thing but it's the best we got) should say something to people about the kind of competition you are dealing with at Princeton. All top private schools are very very competitive. People who whine about how "easy" it is at Harvard because the most common grade given out for ALL classes is an A(including non-science classes), I would encourage them to actually look at the pre-req classes at a school like Harvard, Princeton or Yale and try taking one their themselves. The median's for those classes will be B's at those schools. And like I said, the median MCAT score of an applicant who gets past the weed out process and applies at WashU will be a 33. At Princeton the average will be a 35-36. Whether or not you want to argue Princeton has it much harder than WashU I don't know and it really doesn't matter to me(my guess is it's relatively similar), I just don't agree with any of this "oh these very top schools have it easier" talk.

Now the one exception you might make is Brown. That is a school which used to have(idk if they still do) policies like if you fail a class it won't show up on your transcript so it encourages someone who isn't doing great to just not show up to a final and automatically fail. I believe gyngyn even has said Brown is famous for their grade inflation to the ADCOMs eyes.

Agree to disagree then. I'm willing to give Harvard/Stanford/Brown all kinds of credit for being difficult, world class-institutiong and holding brilliant student bodies, etc. But weedout schools? No. Any school that maintains a 3.7+ average GPA is not a weedout institution by definition. And even if all of the prereqs have B averages (and I'm not entirely convinced that they do because math), having a 3.9 or whatever cGPA is still a huge advantage.

 

[Lawpy]

I don't really understand what you are trying to say at all.

A 33 is a very good score. It won't get most people into a top 20 school but that's kind of the point; that's why top 20s are so hard to get into. Most, even top students, won't get in. If a schools median is a 33 that in no way implies they are doing worse on the MCAT than they should; it simply shows how hard a 36 is to get and how top notch Princeton students are for averaging it

I'm not saying a 33 is bad, but it just seems a tad low for those from rigorous and competitive schools (again i am not isolating WashU/Vandy here. It's just an example). But you're probably right in that a 36+ is difficult to get regardless of the undergrad

 

[ZedsDed]

Something is seriously amiss here so let me break it down.

Consider a university (state or private) that only accepts college applicants with very high SAT/ACT scores and high GPAs. This university places very difficult professors for teaching prereqs and courses are designed in such a way that the average score is set to a D. With a class of already high-scoring students, breaking a B/A is difficult. Because medical schools expect A's in prereqs wherever you go, self-selection happens and those who do get A's in prereqs will succeed in this prereq route and score very high on the MCAT. Taking into account of these students who all emerged from this route, the median MCAT should be very high.

This can be anywhere, but because WashU, Vandy, Princeton, JHU, MIT, UChicago etc impose such very severe selection processes and grade-deflation methods, it is only reasonable to expect their median MCAT to be high. Even speaking most generally, the median MCAT of students from competitive schools would be expected to be above a 30.

So, from what it seems, an MCAT median bin of a 33-35 for WashU and a 31 for Vandy would suggest that even people who got selected against in the rigorous prereqs still take the MCAT and do worse as a result.

I'm not sure what you're arguing Lawper haha. A 33-35 MCAT median is excellent.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Agree to disagree then. I'm willing to give Harvard/Stanford/Brown all kinds of credit for being difficult, world class-institutiong and holding brilliant student bodies, etc. But weedout schools? No. Any school that maintains a 3.7+ average GPA is not a weedout institution by definition. And even if all of the prereqs have B averages (and I'm not entirely convinced that they do because math), having a 3.9 or whatever cGPA is still a huge advantage.

Yeah many people on SDN will agree with you. I just don't happen to be one of them. No worries

 

[efle]

I don't think anyone lists Princeton as one of the easy top schools...and you're out of your ****ing mind if you think the kids at Harvard are facing the same challenge as their peers down the street at MIT, same with Brown vs UChicago or JHU etc. Being average netting you high 3s vs low 3s GPA is huge.

The population taking the MCAT is very capable, makes sense to me that the most you could select down to is a group that hits ~35 avg

 

[efle]

Keep in mind that HYP doesn't pre-screen students, like some schools stringently do - they offer committee letters for all applicants even if their academic stats aren't strong enough yet.

Also this whole WashU versus Top School thing... I think of this anecdotally but think about what kinds of kids from your high school went to WashU? And then what kinds of kids went to HYP? If you were in an AP Bio, AP Chem or AP Physics class with 30+ students who all went to HYP... or 30+ students who went to WashU, which scenario do you think it would be harder to compete in academically? Both schools offer an amazing academic experience and have really excellent students (Splitting hairs at this point but this is SDN so hey), but do you honestly think that scoring the median at HYP is equivalent to WashU? At a school where you're more likely to run into international bio/chem olympiad finalists/semifinalists/participants? Who on average had twice as many 5's on AP's than their WashU peers or an SAT score average ~150-200 points higher? It's all relative. So think of what you're competing with. And then look at the stats for HYP required to get into med school compared to WashU.

Iirc WashU's median test scores are equal or above Princeton&Stanford, and maybe a single point or less off of Harvard/Yale/MIT? What separates the crowd for HYPSM is more interesting ECs/app narrative, not significantly stronger academics. Considering the ridiculous 3.7 median I'd much much much rather be sent to H if my life depended on making a high GPA

 

[Doug Underhill]

I would expect WashU and Vandy MCAT medians to be at least a 36 because of intense weedout process that happens in the prereqs.

The Vandy MCAT average is 31.

See page 3

http://as.vanderbilt.edu/hpao/documents/2014_Annual_Report.pdf

 

[Lawpy]

The Vandy MCAT average is 31.

See page 3

http://as.vanderbilt.edu/hpao/documents/2014_Annual_Report.pdf

I'm aware. I just found it to be surprising since I expected it to be higher.

 

[ZedsDed]

I'm aware. I just found it to be surprising since I expected it to be higher.

The average sat at vandy is very high (2200+). If she is producing lower scores than other schools with comparable student bodies, something must be lacking in the education.

 

[Lawpy]

The average sat at vandy is very high (2200+). If she is producing lower scores than other schools with comparable student bodies, something must be lacking in the education.

I guess the problem is basically this: in highly competitive universities with top-caliber students (say very high SAT/ACT scores), the average premed from such universities should have a strong MCAT score. And by strong, I mean greater than the matriculant MD average of a 31. Apologies for not being clear before.

 

[efle]

The average sat at vandy is very high (2200+). If she is producing lower scores than other schools with comparable student bodies, something must be lacking in the education.

Or rather that her weedout process does not select as heavily for the skills that make for a good MCAT

 

[ZedsDed]

I guess the problem is basically this: in highly competitive universities with top-caliber students (say very high SAT/ACT scores), the average premed from such universities should have a strong MCAT score. And by strong, I mean greater than the matriculant MD average of a 31. Apologies for not being clear before.

I know, that's what I'm saying. Vandy doesn't have comparable scores to other schools with comparable student bodies. What other conclusion can you make besides quality of education being the culprit here?

 

[efle]

I guess the problem is basically this: in highly competitive universities with top-caliber students (say very high SAT/ACT scores), the average premed from such universities should have a strong MCAT score. And by strong, I mean greater than the matriculant MD average of a 31. Apologies for not being clear before.

The population of students sitting for the MCAT is extremely selected for with the prereqs though. People that were top percent in high school only being top 20% of medical applicants seems reasonable to me.

 

[ZedsDed]

Or rather that her weedout process does not select as heavily for the skills that make for a good MCAT

Vandy is not known for inflation afaik. And that doesn't seem to stop other schools like Stanford or Brown from producing excellent applicants.

 

[Lawpy]

I know, that's what I'm saying. Vandy doesn't have comparable scores to other schools with comparable student bodies. What other conclusion can you make besides quality of education being the culprit here?

The only thing I can think of is too many people who got weeded out by the prereqs decided to take the MCAT anyways.

The population of students sitting for the MCAT is extremely selected for with the prereqs though. People that were top percent in high school only being top 20% of medical applicants seems reasonable to me.

If premeds survived the prereqs without being weeded out, shouldn't they be scoring very high on the MCAT?

 

[ZedsDed]

The only thing I can think of is too many people who got weeded out by the prereqs decided to take the MCAT anyways.

Or there are problems with the way the prereqs are taught (too much emphasis on memorization and so on.) Which just circles back to quality of education.

 

[efle]

The only thing I can think of is too many people who got weeded out by the prereqs decided to take the MCAT anyways.



If premeds survived the prereqs without being weeded out, shouldn't they be scoring very high on the MCAT?

You really need to see performance per GPA to know

Depends what makes for good grades in prereqs

 

[Lawpy]

Or there are problems with the way the prereqs are taught (too much emphasis on memorization and so on.) Which just circles back to quality of education.

It'd be strange to see rigorous universities employing a memorization-heavy route for teaching prereqs. Rather, I'd expect intense critical analysis skills for concepts that are much, much harder than those covered in the MCAT.

You really need to see performance per GPA to know

Depends what makes for good grades in prereqs

Even if it is a barely passing grade (say at least a C), it'd be expected for them to score a 31 at the minimum. A 31 average means that numerous premeds from top schools were scoring 30 (optimistically speaking) or in the 20s. That contradicts the high SAT/ACT scores needed to get into the undergrads in the first place.