38 MCAT looks like I am not getting in. Advice?

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student4life0800

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Hey guys,

So here are my stats and ec's.
-38 MCAT 3.56 GPA (pretty even between science and nonscience)
-Children's Hospital Volunteer (120hrs)
-OR Volunteer (45hrs)
-Shadowed 2 ER docs (50hrs)
-Teaching Assistant for 2 semesters in intro biology
-Research Assistant for 2 years working on a publication
-then some work and ec stuff (tutor, canyoneering, intramural captain, manager at a cafeteria)

I applied in July and then sent most of my secondaries in between August and September. Here is my list of schools I think I may have applied too top heavy.
Einstein
Boston
Case Western
Columbia
Duke
Emory
George Washington
Georgetown
USC
Loyola
Rush
Thomas Jefferson
Ohio State
Miami
Tulane
UCSD
UCSF
Utah

I am from Utah and did get an interview there and am waiting to hear back. I guess I am just surprised I didn't get more interviews and would like some outside perspective. The only thing I can think of is that either one of my letter writers wasn't very favorable or the 5 Ws on my transcript (2 were science prereqs) were viewed very negatively.

Thanks
 
You've managed to make several mistakes with your school list.
For the top schools, your GPA is too low and this is a top heavy list. Also any UCs as an OOS without exceptional stats is a mistake.
For the mid tier schools, you either applied to schools that receive 10,000+ applications (like GW/Gtown) or schools that favor a heavy service commitment (Rush/Loyola) that you do not satisfy based on your reported ECs.

Taking a stab in the dark, I'd say your meaningful clinical ECs are lacking. Perhaps work on that and create a more suitable school list for next cycle. Sorry it didn't work out, I've been there and I know it sucks.
 
I just double checked it was actually 4 W's. One in first aid, a 1 credit internship class and then a physics lab and a neuroscience class.
 
I had 4 Ws and got 4 interviews (3 MD, 1DO), not sure if one extra W makes that big a difference. It also wasn't brought up in any of my interviews. OTOH, a bad LOR can absolutely sink your application. Hope for the best and prep for the worst. If you have to apply again (I did), get different letters! Go through the MSAR and see which schools are receptive to Utah residents.

If you went to BYU, apply to TMDSAS because Texas schools LOVE graduates from that school for some reason.
 
This will probably get moved to WAMC at some point but this can be one of the trickier situations to give advice to.

Couple things to consider

1) When were these W's? Where they all in one semester or spread out throughout undergrad? 4W's all in one rought semester due to unforseen circumstances several years ago is clearly different than having 4-5W's dispersed with 1 every 2 semesters or so.

2) While you have ECs, ask yourself what exactly stands out about you? What did you produce in those 2 years of research at the time of your application? On the surface, 2 years of research without significant production, limited volunteering that is mostly bound to a clinical setting and some TA experience isn't the type of application that stands out. This isnt the type of application that tends to generate traction at upper tier schools.

3) Your LORs and essays are certainly worth looking over closely and a potential area for improvement certainly. People often confuse LORs that simply dont hurt you as positive.

4) Ultimately a problem you can potentially face is higher tier schools will look at your ECs as bland, your below avg GPA, and not be interested. But lower tier schools at the same time interview relatively few people who hit 38 on the MCAT and where that MCAT is 2-3 points above their 90th percentile. Furthermore, alot of lower tier schools in their mission statements have a commitment to service, and often times look for applicants with significant experience of it in non clinical settings(Rush, Loyola and Georgetown particularly come to mind). Your application doesnt appeal to that mission.

Your school list isnt by and large terrible. It's just your application isnt necessairly one that appeals to a large range of schools like I mentioned above which can complicate things and why giving advice can be tricky here. I dont know if the entire solution here is as simple as just aiming alot lower.

5) Last question to ask is are you a reapplicant? Is the 38 your only MCAT score?
 
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student4life0800 said:
Hey guys,

So here are my stats and ec's.
-38 MCAT 3.56 GPA (pretty even between science and nonscience)
-Children's Hospital Volunteer (120hrs)
-OR Volunteer (45hrs)
-Shadowed 2 ER docs (50hrs)
-Teaching Assistant for 2 semesters in intro biology
-Research Assistant for 2 years working on a publication
-then some work and ec stuff (tutor, canyoneering, intramural captain, manager at a cafeteria)

I applied in July and then sent most of my secondaries in between August and September. Here is my list of schools I think I may have applied too top heavy.
Einstein
Boston
Case Western
Columbia
Duke
Emory
George Washington
Georgetown
USC
Loyola
Rush
Thomas Jefferson
Ohio State
Miami
Tulane
UCSD
UCSF
Utah

I am from Utah and did get an interview there and am waiting to hear back. I guess I am just surprised I didn't get more interviews and would like some outside perspective. The only thing I can think of is that either one of my letter writers wasn't very favorable or the 5 Ws on my transcript (2 were science prereqs) were viewed very negatively.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Hella top heavy my friend
 
Just a couple of things to add. I did take the MCAT twice the first was a 32 and then I retook it three months later for the 38. The 4 W's were in two semesters and did have some family problems arise. For the clinical volunteering the children's hospital had a lot of meaning to me personally because I went their as a kid, and did try and convey that in my application. Just a couple of questions.
1) Any schools to suggest adding for next cycle?
2) For the clinical volunteering I would like to do something with kids, maybe in an undeserved population. Any recommendations?
3) Would the first MCAT matter? I was under the impression that they focused on your most recent.
 
Did you put a lot of effort into your secondaries? Compare the secondary for the school you interviewed at to that of other schools. Can you see any differences? Is writing one of your strengths or weaknesses?
 
student4life0800 said:
Just a couple of things to add. I did take the MCAT twice the first was a 32 and then I retook it three months later for the 38. The 4 W's were in two semesters and did have some family problems arise. For the clinical volunteering the children's hospital had a lot of meaning to me personally because I went their as a kid, and did try and convey that in my application. Just a couple of questions.
1) Any schools to suggest adding for next cycle?
2) For the clinical volunteering I would like to do something with kids, maybe in an undeserved population. Any recommendations?
3) Would the first MCAT matter? I was under the impression that they focused on your most recent.
Click to expand...

Why exactly did you retook a 32...?
 
HybridEarth said:
Did you put a lot of effort into your secondaries? Compare the secondary for the school you interviewed at to that of other schools. Can you see any differences? Is writing one of your strengths or weaknesses?
Click to expand...
Honestly I am not a great writer, but I thought they were good. I still haven't been rejected by Duke and I hear they put a lot of emphasis on your secondaries.
 
Lucca said:
I'd say he had a good reason. A 32 / 3.6 would have been very marginal at most places. Considering OP got a 38 the second time around he probably knew he hadn't hit his full potential.
Click to expand...

3.6/32 is perfectly competitive for many places. The MD matriculant average is a 3.7/31.

As for the OP's question there are a fair number of schools and individaul evaluators who average multiple MCAT scores. So yes, taking it twice does matter. Youll also often hear ADCOMs on here say a question is brought up when an applicant retakes a perfectly fine MCAT score and that this can potentially have a negative impact. A 32 could potentially be seen as such to some schools.
 
GrapesofRath said:
3.6/32 is perfectly competitive for many places. The MD matriculant average is a 3.7/31 after all.

As for the OP's question there are a fair number of schools and individaul evaluators who average multiple MCAT scores. So yes, taking it twice does matter. Youll also often hear ADCOMs on here say a question is brought up when an applicant retakes a perfectly fine MCAT score and that this can potentially have a negative impact. A 32 could potentially be seen as such to some schools.
Click to expand...

Another reason I retook it, was that I was offered a job as an MCAT tutor but needed a higher score.
 
GrapesofRath said:
3.6/32 is perfectly competitive for many places. The MD matriculant average is a 3.7/31 after all.

As for the OP's question there are a fair number of schools and individaul evaluators who average multiple MCAT scores. So yes, taking it twice does matter. Youll also often hear ADCOMs on here say a question is brought up when an applicant retakes a perfectly fine MCAT score and that this can potentially have a negative impact. A 32 could potentially be seen as such to some schools.
Click to expand...

Yeah you're right, lol, I have no idea why I wrote that in my post lol I'll edit it. Too much caffeine and MCAT studying for me.
 
student4life0800 said:
Honestly I am not a great writer, but I thought they were good. I still haven't been rejected by Duke and I hear they put a lot of emphasis on your secondaries.
Click to expand...

My gut tells me that it's a combination of recent withdrawals (if they were in fact recent) and poor writing of your PS and/or secondaries. I feel like having one interview means you surpassed most red flags (bad scores, bad LOR, bad ECs). I'd take a close look at these.
 
AsianPersuasion said:
Why exactly did you retook a 32...?
Click to expand...

GrapesofRath said:
3.6/32 is perfectly competitive for many places. The MD matriculant average is a 3.7/31.
Click to expand...

Lucca said:
Yeah you're right, lol, I have no idea why I wrote that in my post lol I'll edit it. Too much caffeine and MCAT studying for me.
Click to expand...
To be fair, if I was consistently hitting 39 on my practice tests, I would consider retaking a 32 (paired with a 3.6). I probably wouldn't retake anything higher than that. I definitely don't think OP is crazy for doing so.
 
GrapesofRath said:
3.6/32 is perfectly competitive for many places. The MD matriculant average is a 3.7/31.

As for the OP's question there are a fair number of schools and individaul evaluators who average multiple MCAT scores. So yes, taking it twice does matter. Youll also often hear ADCOMs on here say a question is brought up when an applicant retakes a perfectly fine MCAT score and that this can potentially have a negative impact. A 32 could potentially be seen as such to some schools.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't think retaking a 32 and improving by that much would be taken negatively. It makes sense to retake if he was scoring much higher on practice exams and if he was aiming for schools with a higher average
 
I doubt retaking a 32 and scoring in the 100th percentile raised any flags
Sorry to hear this OP. I think your ECs are pretty decent for mid tier schools but definitely not where they need to be for a lot of your schools.
Consider adding Hofstra since theyre big on high MCAT scores!
 
Glandzburg said:
To be fair, if I was consistently hitting 39 on my practice tests, I would consider retaking a 32 (paired with a 3.6). I probably wouldn't retake anything higher than that. I definitely don't think OP is crazy for doing so.
Click to expand...

Me neither, I would definitely retake a 32, I was projecting my own goals onto my advice which was fine for this OP since he was doing really well on the MCAT (so I think he made the right choice) but what I wrote originally definitely was not true, 3.6/32 is solidly within the score ranges of most MD schools.
 
Glazedonutlove said:
I wouldn't think retaking a 32 and improving by that much would be taken negatively. It makes sense to retake if he was scoring much higher on practice exams and if he was aiming for schools with a higher average
Click to expand...

There was an interesting thread about a similar topic a while ago. Law2Doc explained many of the reasons why retaking a 32-33 score even if you do considerably better might not help you. Gyngyn has echoed many similar sentiments over the years. Look specifically at L2D's posts on the second page specifically to see what I'm referring to(specifically post 71 and 79 on page 2). You can start to see from what he is saying why retaking a good score even if you do alot better isnt necessairly to your benefit. I'll tag @Lucca also because he was also talking about this.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-to-assess-app-weakness-thanks.1074437/page-2

The situation this applicant was facing is actually rather similar to the OP. Assymetric stats, rather generic ECs, high MCAT but after multiple attempts and no acceptance.
 
Last edited:
What a weird situation! A 38 is competitive for any US MD school, so I don't think your list is that top heavy. ECs seems pretty good/average. GPA could be better but a 3.6 isn't the end of the world, especially with a 38 to compensate. May I ask which Utah school you graduated from? I'm honestly surprised that you haven't gotten any interviews, besides the U (which interviews almost everyone) with stats like yours. I agree with others in thinking it may be your PS, letter writers, or essay writing skills that are hurting you. Super weird!
 
MD2025 said:
What a weird situation! A 38 is competitive for any US MD school, so I don't think your list is that top heavy. ECs seems pretty good/average. GPA could be better but a 3.6 isn't the end of the world, especially with a 38 to compensate. May I ask which Utah school you graduated from? I'm honestly surprised that you haven't gotten any interviews, besides the U (which interviews almost everyone) with stats like yours. I agree with others in thinking it may be your PS, letter writers, or essay writing skills that are hurting you. Super weird!
Click to expand...
BYU
 
I think this a kind of an unfortunate combination of factors combining into a "perfect storm" along with some plain bad luck.
AirplaneFruit said:
Isn't 5Ws a huge deal?
Uninteresting ECs and 3.5 from what kind of an undergrad?
Click to expand...
1. W's are never good, despite us arguing over how much they matter. 4-5 W's is definitely going to get noticed, no ifs ands or buts.
2. Only being to get a 3.5 with 4-5 withdrawals is also pretty iffy, especially if you're not at a UChicago-MIT-JHU type place (even there it wouldn't be great). BYU isn't going to ring in any favors for you on that front.
3. EC's are extremely bland for the relatively high caliber of schools on your list, if those were your main ones.

baratheonfire said:
Hella top heavy my friend
Click to expand...
3. About half of the schools on your list are pretty much no-go's b/c of everything except your MCAT. The high MCAT won't make up for an overall lacking application.

Question: When did you apply?

With all that being said I think you have a fair shot at getting into Utah still.
 
I'm in a pretty similar situation (38 MCAT, low-ish GPA, complete most places late August). Here's hoping that both of us hear something positive. Rooting for you!
 
Biggest advice, increase that clinical exposure!!!! If you're looking at a year off if you do not receive acceptances anywhere, get some clinical exposure that's not shadowing. I.e, hospice, patient transport, scribe, ER tech. As everybody else noted, you definitely applied top heavy too!!
 
GrapesofRath said:
There was an interesting thread about a similar topic a while ago. Law2Doc explained many of the reasons why retaking a 32-33 score even if you do considerably better might not help you. Gyngyn has echoed many similar sentiments over the years. Look specifically at L2D's posts on the second page specifically to see what I'm referring to(specifically post 71 and 79 on page 2). You can start to see from what he is saying why retaking a good score even if you do alot better isnt necessairly to your benefit. I'll tag @Lucca also because he was also talking about this.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-to-assess-app-weakness-thanks.1074437/page-2

The situation this applicant was facing is actually rather similar to the OP. Assymetric stats, rather generic ECs, high MCAT but after multiple attempts and no acceptance.
Click to expand...
Goro said:
It would be at gyngyn's school!
Click to expand...
Interesting.
Though I think it's the five w's and the top heavy school list that are probably the bigger issues
 
Can't give much advice here other than bump up your clinical hours, and get people you trust to go through your writing for anything that could be a red-flag.

I have a buddy with an MCAT score similar to you (except he has an exceptional GPA and ECs). He's gone through the app cycle several times now with no success, and I suspect it's due to his writing/interview skills. In his first PS and work/activities I went through he was trying to sound far too academic.
 
Goro said:
It would be at gyngyn's school!
Click to expand...

Why?? This is surprising to me because I would think improving on an already good score would only help. Haha just genuinely curious..
 
Glazedonutlove said:
Interesting.
Though I think it's the five w's and the top heavy school list that are probably the bigger issues
Click to expand...

It's a combination of things that just when added together caused problems. The 4 W's(although I think some people here are overstating the negative impact a little bit), the generic ECs, generic LORs/essays, no real hook to the app, multiple MCATs and just flat out bad luck. I dont know if applying alot lower necessairly would have made everything magically alot better although top 20 schools werent really realistic. It's one of the tougher situations to give advice to. Hopefully they get into Utah and this is all for not.
 
Because it shows poor judgement. OP could have just as easily scored lower. Luckily he went up and by a lot but you never know. And a 32 is a dry good score.
 
Why does the answer always have to be something we've parsed as wrong with the applicant, or with an assumption that there just must be some secret deficit of doom? Why must the 'system' of admissions always be defended? Is it infallible? Are there never applicants who deserved to get in or should have gotten in who don't? Of course there may be a problem with the applicant, but it seems like there is some embedded defensiveness that prevails whenever something like this is posted, and I'm not sure exactly what is being defended so vigorously or why.
 
They're allergic to hubris and poor choice making.


Benjoe11 said:
Why?? This is surprising to me because I would think improving on an already good score would only help. Haha just genuinely curious..
Click to expand...

Easy. When someone is competitive and fails to get any love, there are usually good reasons why.


Why does the answer always have to be something we've parsed as wrong with the applicant, or with an assumption that there just must be some secret deficit of doom? Why must the 'system' of admissions always be defended? Is it infallible? Are there never applicants who deserved to get in or should have gotten in who don't? Of course there may be a problem with the applicant, but it seems like there is some embedded defensiveness that prevails whenever something like this is posted, and I'm not sure exactly what is being defended so vigorously or why.
 
Hitmann said:
You lack clinical hours, very lacking
Click to expand...
No he doesn't, 200 clinical volunteering hours is not "very very lacking."

OP this is a hard lesson that stats aren't everything (seems like you thought this based on qualifying your disbelief with the fact that you have a 38).

Probably a combo of lackluster ECs, lackluster essays, lackluster letters, top heavy school choice, and not applying early. The 38 is the only thing you have that pops out on your app. You want more than one thing that grabs an adcoms attention.
 
Goro said:
They're allergic to hubris and poor choice making.
Click to expand...

First thought to come to mind for me are the students that need to bug professors in office hours to get their 95 bumped up to a 98.
 
Goro said:
They're allergic to hubris and poor choice making.




Easy. When someone is competitive and fails to get any love, there are usually good reasons why.


Why does the answer always have to be something we've parsed as wrong with the applicant, or with an assumption that there just must be some secret deficit of doom? Why must the 'system' of admissions always be defended? Is it infallible? Are there never applicants who deserved to get in or should have gotten in who don't? Of course there may be a problem with the applicant, but it seems like there is some embedded defensiveness that prevails whenever something like this is posted, and I'm not sure exactly what is being defended so vigorously or why.
Click to expand...

Whereas I think that with 10-15K apps to sift through, and schools not even acknowledging that some have applied (and not even looked at some apps) for 4-5 months, and adcoms being real human beings who read some apps when they are half-asleep, or hungry, or just annoyed or something in general, they might miss a few good people once in a while. And that's not actually a slam but just being realistic. Now obviously on an individual level all a person can do is try to improve his/her app for the next time. And this person most likely will get in Utah and be fine.
 
If you've had other interviews but haven't gotten in... Maybe it's your personality?
 
Please restrain your ignorance of the app process. We take this VERY seriously. Like it or not, there are a superfluity of good candidates...as witnessed by the 40% success rate of any given applicant.


Nietzschelover said:
Whereas I think that with 10-15K apps to sift through, and schools not even acknowledging that some have applied (and not even looked at some apps) for 4-5 months, and adcoms being real human beings who read some apps when they are half-asleep, or hungry, or just annoyed or something in general, they might miss a few good people once in a while. And that's not actually a slam but just being realistic. Now obviously on an individual level all a person can do is try to improve his/her app for the next time. And this person most likely will get in Utah and be fine.
Click to expand...
 
Apply to Texas next time. They'll love your 38 and as has been said, there are a lot of BYU grads there...

Also add something interesting to your ECs -- something uncomfortable, so not sick kids, but memory care, alzheimers, intellectual disabilities, hospice, homeless.
 
Goro said:
Please restrain your ignorance of the app process. We take this VERY seriously. Like it or not, there are a superfluity of good candidates...as witnessed by the 40% success rate of any given applicant.
Click to expand...

Please refer to your own words above. Not getting in doesn't have to mean someone did something wrong or has some fatal flaw.
 
Just a random thought..this might not even be helpful: OP mentioned that he submitted his secondaries in August/September. Would that add at all to his bad luck in the process? That is definitely not "late" but perhaps it was also a factor?
 
Add western Michigan to your list next year, private school, but relatively new.Lots of BYU students there. U OF Michigan also has a lot of Utah students too as OOS. Get some assistance with your essays. Better luck next cycle.
 
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