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not 2 late

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Hello Everyone!
I love this website and hope that some of you fellow non-trads can help me out here. I work as a school psychologist...tenured position, basically work about 9 months/year, 8-4 pm, no weekends/evenings, 85k, great retirement, ...I am financially comfortable (lots of equity, little debt)..no children, no husband, & no real desire to settle for the sake of settling....Sorry-I'll get to the point. I'm willing to give it all up if I knew I had a chance of getting into med school....and then get a descent job post med school. I'm figuring I'll be 49 by the time I finish my pre-req, possible glide year, med school, residency.....Who'll want to hire a 49 year old? When I was a kid, I didn't fantasize about my wedding, the only white outfit I fantasized was a doctor's coat...but, I screwed up when I was young and I feel like it's a my scarlet letter.

My undergrad GPA is around 2.99 with really bad grades in the first two years especially in the sciences/math courses I took as part of the GE requirements...excellent performance at grad school, 12 years of professional experience.....will start a postbac pre-med program (nonformal) through UCLA extension and I am sure I'll do really well if I quit my job and just focus on my classes and studying for the MCAT. I'm afraid to quit my job...ironically(?) enough cause I don't want to give up my excellent medical coverage at work.

Anyway...am I nuts? This isn't a near mid life existential thing. I like my job, but I want more....I want to be a doctor! I'm realistic and aware of my capabilities. I have maturity, confidence, and life experience....it's got count for something when it comes time to compete with all those over achieving neurotic 22 year olds that have no idea how to work with others and deal with situations where they can't pull a book and look up the answers. My apologies to all the 22 year olds out there if you're reading this. I say these things with experience....I've "interned" (volunteer position) at UCLA's careextenders and I can't even imagine putting my life in the hands of someone with so little life experience.

Sorry for the long note.Any responses will be greatly appreciated.
 
Hello Everyone!
I love this website and hope that some of you fellow non-trads can help me out here. I work as a school psychologist...tenured position, basically work about 9 months/year, 8-4 pm, no weekends/evenings, 85k, great retirement, ...I am financially comfortable (lots of equity, little debt)..no children, no husband, & no real desire to settle for the sake of settling....Sorry-I'll get to the point. I'm willing to give it all up if I knew I had a chance of getting into med school....and then get a descent job post med school. I'm figuring I'll be 49 by the time I finish my pre-req, possible glide year, med school, residency.....Who'll want to hire a 49 year old? When I was a kid, I didn't fantasize about my wedding, the only white outfit I fantasized was a doctor's coat...but, I screwed up when I was young and I feel like it's a my scarlet letter.

My undergrad GPA is around 2.99 with really bad grades in the first two years especially in the sciences/math courses I took as part of the GE requirements...excellent performance at grad school, 12 years of professional experience.....will start a postbac pre-med program (nonformal) through UCLA extension and I am sure I'll do really well if I quit my job and just focus on my classes and studying for the MCAT. I'm afraid to quit my job...ironically(?) enough cause I don't want to give up my excellent medical coverage at work.

Anyway...am I nuts? This isn't a near mid life existential thing. I like my job, but I want more....I want to be a doctor! I'm realistic and aware of my capabilities. I have maturity, confidence, and life experience....it's got count for something when it comes time to compete with all those over achieving neurotic 22 year olds that have no idea how to work with others and deal with situations where they can't pull a book and look up the answers. My apologies to all the 22 year olds out there if you're reading this. I say these things with experience....I've "interned" (volunteer position) at UCLA's careextenders and I can't even imagine putting my life in the hands of someone with so little life experience.

Sorry for the long note.Any responses will be greatly appreciated.

You wanna know if you're nuts? I've yet to see more than 2 sane medical students in my entire life! I don't think that sanity in the context you describe it, is relevant. 😛
You want to do it. You can do it. Just do it, and don't take 'no' for an answer.

Here is your answer

Go get em.
 
You really need to evaluate your reasons for making the switch. There are many other avenues in healthcare that offer a rewarding, stimulating, nice paying lifestyle.

Perhaps it's simply time to make a lateral move within your existing field. Or, leverage your experience to obtain a more rewarding job outside of your field?

I've said it before. Becoming a physician is an extreme of sorts. It takes a very long time, and is quite costly, financially. So, it really all depends on what kind of life you want for yourself. Do you want to be paying back debt in your 50's?

I'm not being discouraging, but rather emphasizing that it's super important to make these decisions on an even keel. And, if you're particularly unhappy at the moment, this may cloud your judgement.

IMO, if you decide to do this, it'll be best for you to look at it as an adventure. That being said, most of your pre-req years, as well as preclinical med school years with be somewhat adventureLESS, in reality. I'd just give this a LOT of thought before doing anything drastic, that's all. But, if you're unhappy/unsatisfied in your current profession, then for sure make a switch. What kind of change, is up to you to decide for yourself. Just make it an educated decision.
 
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I am a non-traditional medical student, and let me tell you -- walking away from an established job to take on a medical education is SERIOUS business. You will age faster than you would if you stayed at your job (unless you HATE it). Not to mention loans. Go and shadow some docs for real (take call) for a week and see.
 
9 months/year, 8-4 pm, no weekends/evenings, 85k, great retirement, ...I am financially comfortable (lots of equity, little debt)..

You're already living the dream!

I'd give my typical "go for it" thought but I give pause to your current situation. There are many enrolled in medical school who would trade places with you in an instant.

Are your okay with potentially $200,000-$300,000 in debt? If you go into primary care then you wouldn't make much more as a physician to pay those loans off. Some kids speculate they'll have nearly $400,000 in debt when they graduate.

Again, considering your current job, I vote no.
 
For you, it is not a matter of "if" you can do it. Rather it would be, "why".
 
I would think about what you want out of your career. Do you have a realistic picture about what it will be like as a practicing doctor? I left a nice career with a 6 figure salary when I was a few years younger than you. From a financial perspective it made no sense to become a doctor, but that was only a small part of my decision. I was unhappy in my career and I felt that becoming a physician would be the best way for me to fufill my career goals. After a lot of thought I knew I was going to pursue my goal, even if it didn't make sense on a number of levels. It's been the right decision, at least so far.

If you do decide to pursue this, then come up with a good realistic plan before you start. Your GPA is very low to get into an MD school. You probably need about 60 UG credits at 4.0 before it starts getting into a more competitive range. Part-time, you may need 2-3 years to get this done. So if you start in the spring semester, you will be 3-4 years away from starting med school. Maybe you can speed this up a little if you go full-time when you are off in the summer.

My main advice would be think about why you want this and be realistic about what it will take to accomplish your goal. With that in mind, you can do it if you really want to.
 
If you do decide to pursue this, then come up with a good realistic plan before you start. Your GPA is very low to get into an MD school. You probably need about 60 UG credits at 4.0 before it starts getting into a more competitive range. Part-time, you may need 2-3 years to get this done. So if you start in the spring semester, you will be 3-4 years away from starting med school. Maybe you can speed this up a little if you go full-time when you are off in the summer.

I'd like to add to the advice above: Look into and consider whether you'd be happy going to DO school and getting a DO instead of an MD. If you have any questions about the difference, go to the Pre-Osteopathic Forum on here and read the FAQ on that page. DO schools give more leeway for poor grades from long ago. While medical schools will give points for an upward trend, if your gpa is still closer to 3.0 than 3.5 it may be a problem at some schools. From what I've heard, DO schools can be a lot more forgiving if the rest of your application is strong but for those early years. So, I'd suggest applying to both MD and DO when the time comes. Good luck. If it's really you're dream, I say go for it.
 
Hello Everyone!
I love this website and hope that some of you fellow non-trads can help me out here. I work as a school psychologist...tenured position, basically work about 9 months/year, 8-4 pm, no weekends/evenings, 85k, great retirement, ...I am financially comfortable (lots of equity, little debt)..no children, no husband, & no real desire to settle for the sake of settling....

Are you my twin? I can relate to so much of what you wrote, included the part about never picturing myself in a wedding dress, and concerns about medical insurance. Right now I get insurance through my school, that is one benefit to being in a matriculated program (instead of open university fulfilling pre-reqs).

First, listen to what others have said about considering all your options, doing a ton of soul searching on why you want to do this, but more importantly what your expectations are about what you'll get out of it.

The thing I always do is picture myself as a little old lady, laying in bed, about it die. (Morbid, but keep reading). I then ask that little old lady if she is satisfied with how she lived her life, and what her regrets are. As an engineer, the little old lady told me that she deeply regretted never making a meaningful impact on the world, never really challenging herself, always living a luke warm comfortable life, and never utilizing her gift for science and math in a meaningful way.

Now, that little old lady just smiles and dies peacefully because she is future me after having a career in medicine.

If your little old lady can die happy without pursuing medicine specifically, then it might be possible you can get what you need from a different, less-time consumming, less expensive path.

Good Luck!

You wanna know if you're nuts? I've yet to see more than 2 sane medical students in my entire life! I don't think that sanity in the context you describe it, is relevant. 😛
You want to do it. You can do it. Just do it, and don't take 'no' for an answer.

Here is your answer

Go get em.

:laugh::laugh::clap::clap:Awesome, totally true.
 
The thing I always do is picture myself as a little old lady, laying in bed, about it die. (Morbid, but keep reading). I then ask that little old lady if she is satisfied with how she lived her life, and what her regrets are.

Yeah, but it works both ways.

I may regret the enormous amount of time I devote to the hospital, patients, and a career. There is an opportunity cost too. Regrets come in a variety of sizes and shapes.

Robert Frost never said the "road less traveled" was a wonderful decision, he just said it "made all the difference in the world". The poem isn't necessarily inspiring.
 
The thing I always do is picture myself as a little old lady, laying in bed, about it die. (Morbid, but keep reading). I then ask that little old lady if she is satisfied with how she lived her life, and what her regrets are. As an engineer, the little old lady told me that she deeply regretted never making a meaningful impact on the world, never really challenging herself, always living a luke warm comfortable life, and never utilizing her gift for science and math in a meaningful way.

Now, that little old lady just smiles and dies peacefully because she is future me after having a career in medicine.

If your little old lady can die happy without pursuing medicine specifically, then it might be possible you can get what you need from a different, less-time consumming, less expensive path.

Wow. That's exactly what I did when I came to my decision two and a half years ago, although not with such great visuals. Great minds....

And not2late, a good way to look at the age issue is to realize that you're going to be 50 anyway. Would you rather be 50 and doing what you're doing, or 50 and a doctor?
 
Overcoming a bad GPA even from decades ago may take a couple of years of studying before med school. Add a possible glide year for applications. Then add 4 years in medical school. Finally add however many years you need in residency. That's a minimum 10 years right there to finally start your new life as a doctor, and that is assuming EVERYTHING goes well - good grades, good MCAT, an acceptance on the first try, good performance in med school and residency. Too many things are uncertain, a stark contrast to the stability you have now.

Only a thorough self-evalutation and soul searching can help you make a decision and please DONT BE IN A HURRY to make that decision just because you may feel old. A few months spent on researching about US or foreign medical education, shadowing doctors, talking to advisers/students/adcomms/friends, is nothing compared to the years that lie ahead as a consequence of that decision.

I suggest taking a break from work. Maybe you're just unconsciously getting tired of your good job? It happens. You may have a great job, the kind lots of people would want, but to you it has become routine without your realizing it. If this is the case, how can you say you will not feel the same way about medicine after years of practice?

Talk to your family, friends, people you trust and who are most important to you. Are you sure you don't want to get married, have kids? If you realize you want a family someday, are you giving yourself enough wiggle room in your 10-year plan to accommodate that? How is your finances looking like? Mortgage? Loans? You may not be in debt right now, but will be when you go to school. Can you be frugal?

Make an honest evaluation of your academic performance. Why did you do badly before in the sciences and math? Do you have a plan so you'll do better? Can you keep it up for years of schooling again?

Sorry if I seem like im discouraging you. Trust me, I am not. These are just the same questions I tortured myself with before I finally made my decision.
Whatever you decide to do, best of luck to you and yours.
 
As an engineer, the little old lady told me that she deeply regretted never making a meaningful impact on the world, never really challenging herself, always living a luke warm comfortable life, and never utilizing her gift for science and math in a meaningful way.

Just another fan. That is totally what I felt like a couple years ago. Here I am with a great education and pretty smart if I do say so myself, and what do I do? I have a regular okay paying job that doesn't tax me and doesn't help anyone. Why would I want to do that? I _want_ to push myself, I _want_ to use my mind, I _want_ to have an impact. That's why I'm here.

Now I just hope I get in!
 
I was in your same situation a few years ago. $80 K, rewarding job, successful, etc. with the same kinds of freedom that you have. BUT, as I approached 40, I asked myself if I was making the highest and best use of my skills and if I was really living to my highest potential. The answer was no, and I realized that I could have 1 or 2 or even 3 more careers before I stopped working. I decided to go full speed ahead, willing to go to any school (MD or DO) that accepted me. I started med school 18 months after I made that decision.

I am now 45 and halfway through fourth year. Many times I have thought, what was I thinking? I came into med school with a very strong academic background and still struggled (a lot) in the hierarchy and poor teaching of the first 2 years. Now, I continue to be amazed and thrilled at the world that is open before me. The opportunities are endless and incredible. I do still dislike the extreme hierarchy of medicine (it is very much like the military, but more disorganized). At this point, my biggest regret is that I did not do this 20 years ago when I had the huge energy of my late 20s and the years stretching ahead to do everything I want to do in medicine. I can absolutely keep up with my classmates, and I have no trouble even on long overnight shifts. But it would have been easier! It is also very hard to go from being an expert to being a nothing, even if you think you don't have a big ego.

I did a lot of shadowing and medical volunteering in the year before I applied. I really don't think this gives you much more than a superficial understanding of the issues involved in being a doctor. There are tons of things that you just don't even think about until you are approaching that situation yourself. Your bkg prepares you much better than shadowing ever could.

If I were you, I would really sit down and think about it very carefully (this is essential, because when things really suck, which they inevitably will, much worse than you expect, you will want to remember why you went to medicine in the first place). Then do your prereqs, do your MCAT, volunteer and shadow (as you must), and apply. In our position, I would not recommend taking a couple of years to raise grades for an MD school. I just really don't think it's worth it. There are many very fine DO schools out there. The prereqs or going MD will not make you a better doctor.

Re health care, COBRA will cover you for 18 months. That might be nearly long enough. Catastrophic insurance will fill the gap.

Re the 22 yo: yeah, that's what I thought, and I got my ass kicked by a bunch of brilliant, compassionate, amazing 20-something yo in my class with a ton of life experience, and photographic memories or much better study habits than mine.
 
At this point, my biggest regret is that I did not do this 20 years ago when I had the huge energy of my late 20s and the years stretching ahead to do everything I want to do in medicine. I can absolutely keep up with my classmates, and I have no trouble even on long overnight shifts. But it would have been easier! It is also very hard to go from being an expert to being a nothing, even if you think you don't have a big ego.

so from your experience, would you say that the perfect age to start med school is in your mid twenties, when you're not too old, but have a decent amount of life experience?

🙂
 
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I've got to say the perspective non-trads have on going into medicine is truly inspiring nearly without exception. I wish more students my age had this same passion and eagerness.
 
I'll try to be brief but helpful.
I was a mental health counselor and I went to chiropractic school, graduated 7 years ago. I am 41. I avoided sciences like crazy and took a class all about the FDA when I was in undergrad and it counted as a science credit. Funny. I survived the science classes when I realized I had to just jump right in. I actually took accelerated courses so I could get to chiro school sooner. Organic chem in 4 weeks!! Even Funnier.
I have a part time private practice so I'm not away too long from my 3.5 year old son. But I recently began consulting at a nursing home as a mental health counselor in a geropsychology wing. I missed counseling but I love both professions.
You'll be a "more mature" non-traditional student. It was hard in the beginning b/c my Master's Degree was all about writing papers. I had to really buckle down for anatomy lab exams and such. It was a new thing for me, but I got into the groove. That's my story.

Lisa
 
Hello Everyone!
I love this website and hope that some of you fellow non-trads can help me out here. I work as a school psychologist...tenured position, basically work about 9 months/year, 8-4 pm, no weekends/evenings, 85k, great retirement, ...I am financially comfortable (lots of equity, little debt)..no children, no husband, & no real desire to settle for the sake of settling....Sorry-I'll get to the point. I'm willing to give it all up if I knew I had a chance of getting into med school....and then get a descent job post med school. I'm figuring I'll be 49 by the time I finish my pre-req, possible glide year, med school, residency.....Who'll want to hire a 49 year old? When I was a kid, I didn't fantasize about my wedding, the only white outfit I fantasized was a doctor's coat...but, I screwed up when I was young and I feel like it's a my scarlet letter.

My undergrad GPA is around 2.99 with really bad grades in the first two years especially in the sciences/math courses I took as part of the GE requirements...excellent performance at grad school, 12 years of professional experience.....will start a postbac pre-med program (nonformal) through UCLA extension and I am sure I'll do really well if I quit my job and just focus on my classes and studying for the MCAT. I'm afraid to quit my job...ironically(?) enough cause I don't want to give up my excellent medical coverage at work.

Anyway...am I nuts? This isn't a near mid life existential thing. I like my job, but I want more....I want to be a doctor! I'm realistic and aware of my capabilities. I have maturity, confidence, and life experience....it's got count for something when it comes time to compete with all those over achieving neurotic 22 year olds that have no idea how to work with others and deal with situations where they can't pull a book and look up the answers. My apologies to all the 22 year olds out there if you're reading this. I say these things with experience....I've "interned" (volunteer position) at UCLA's careextenders and I can't even imagine putting my life in the hands of someone with so little life experience.

Sorry for the long note.Any responses will be greatly appreciated.

I can't give you an advice. It's something you'll have to figure out for yourself. But, I can give you my story.
I had been a physical therapist for 10 years and 34 y/o when I decided to take med school premed courses. I had a condo in a Socal beach city, a BMW, a truck, 5 surfboards among other toys. Financially, I was doing alright though not excellent. I looked at my undergrad GPA at the time (3.311) and thought that if I pulled all A's in the med school pre-reqs, I'll have a shot with a good MCAT score (maybe a long shot, but a shot).

I quit my job, sold my condo and lived off the earnings from the condo to travel for a year then to support myself while I took the pre-req classes for 4 semesters. I knew that if I were to make it into the med school, I'll have to give it all I got. Working and going to school wasn't an option since I needed to put all my effort into my classes...not only to get A's but, to really understand the material to rock the MCAT. Now that I think back, talk about putting all your eggs in one basket! I pulled A+'s and A's in all of the pre-req classes and got one of the best LOR's from 2 of my professors that they've ever written (according to them). I now TA a ochem lab without a chem degree thanks to the connections I've made with my pre-req class professors.

So far I've been invited to 7 interviews. Three of which I attended. I've gotten one acceptance and am waiting to hear from the other 2 which I interviewed last week and this week.

If I may offer an advice....though you'll need to come to a decision on your own is this......can you improve your 2.99 to at least 3.3 and have a 27+ MCAT (if not over 30)? If the answer to that question is yes, (and you truly want to be a physician), go for it. If you can't get to 3.3 and 27+ MCAT, save yourself the time.
 
so from your experience, would you say that the perfect age to start med school is in your mid twenties, when you're not too old, but have a decent amount of life experience?

For my pts, it's actually better that I waited. Now I'm past the stage of having to prove how smart I am every minute of every day. I have a lot more perspective on the decisions that people make and how each person is doing exactly what seems right to them, even if it seems totally bizarre to me.
 
I'll preface my comments by stating that I'm a 25 yo MSIII. I'm sure anyone considering the path is already well aware of the hurdles of simply gaining admission, so I won't bother with that. In reality getting in is really only the beginning of a very long process. Medical school itself is doable for most people but most students find it somewhat boring and draining much of the time. I would imagine that an older, unmarried student without a strong support base nearby could have difficulty dealing with the daily grind. Depending on specialty choice, getting through residency would present its own challenges. Even after that, it's questionable whether you will find strong satisfaction with a career as a physician. There are a lot of negative aspects to the training and practice of medicine that are not apparent to those who haven't experienced it in a very direct way. IMO there's really no way to know exactly what you're getting yourself into. I'm not saying this to try to dissuade the OP from pursuing medicine. It's just that the reality of medicine probably won't match her ideals.
 
I would imagine that an older, unmarried student without a strong support base nearby could have difficulty dealing with the daily grind. Depending on specialty choice, getting through residency would present its own challenges. Even after that, it's questionable whether you will find strong satisfaction with a career as a physician. There are a lot of negative aspects to the training and practice of medicine that are not apparent to those who haven't experienced it in a very direct way. IMO there's really no way to know exactly what you're getting yourself into. I'm not saying this to try to dissuade the OP from pursuing medicine. It's just that the reality of medicine probably won't match her ideals.[/QUOTE]


First of all, I want to thank everyone for all the wonderful advice. I had to responde to this particular one cause it kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Why would you assume that as an older, unmarried person, I may lack a "strong support base nearby."It just doesn't make sense. I'm 39, not a hermit. I would form friendships with those around me much like any other student would....perhaps not with ones that may think they're better. I may not have true experience of a med student, but I have realistic notion of what it's like so the "negative aspects to the training" are not a concern. I'm aware of the hours, of the heirarchy, of the demanding workload, the need to multi-task, the need to get along with various individuals, the paperwork, the research, the politics....etc. You'd be surprised how much of this I do in my own work. There is no way for anyone to know what you're getting into. I agree. You didn't know either. The advantage of my interest in pursuing this prospect is that I am doing it for myself. Not for my parents, not because I don't have a career, not to impress my friends, not for the money, not for the respect, not to feel successful or accomplished....just for me and you have no idea what a wonderful thing this is. Has medicine matched your "ideals"? I wouldn't know so please don't make the assumption that it may not mean mine's. I apologize to the all the 20 something individuals out there if I offended you with my comments. You are all an incredible group of bright, motivated, driven young individuals. However, I can promise you that no matter how smart you may be, there's a lot that you haven't learned in books yet. Worse comes to worse, I have another career to fall back on....and it's a satisfying one if I may say so!
 
The oldest medical student in my class is 43 this year; I'm sure there are older at many other schools, so while you may be in the upper range of the distribution at least take comfort that others likely in similar positions and certainly similar ages have made the same decision.

My first thought was "no, she shouldn't do this" simply because you have a pretty good job now (hours, pay) and have built equity, and the time and monetary investment it takes to complete med school and residency starts to really become a financial wash at about your age. You simply run out of years in practice at a good salary before most would want to think about retirement. Some like to work until they are 80... that may be you, but at least something to consider.

Then I thought more about it, and reread your post. You are (still?) single, have no children, and I get the impression that you are a self motivated and driven person. You stated in your last post that you don't want to do it for the money, the prestige, the lifestyle, etc. So here's one way to look at it: the numbers are certainly not exactly like this, but you'd essentially be trading one career for another at roughly the same salary. My reasoning is that you'd either burn through equity while in school that would have to be replaced later, or live off of loans (like the rest of us) that would have to be repaid. To repay loans before retirement and have some time to resume contributing to that retirement, I'd probably figure that you'd average about 85K/yr until retirement (that includes pre-requisites and med school and residency, so I'm saying you might have 40K/yr (using some equity) during school, 50K/yr during residency, and then while paying off loans have ~100K/yr, maybe more just before retirement).

If you're good with the idea that the time averaged return on investment by becoming a physician is probably not all that different from just continuing to work now at 85K/yr (maybe a little better, maybe a little worse), and really want to do it to fulfill a dream and be a happy person, I say go for it. Hell... some might rather be a physician for half the pay of their current job just because that is their dream.
 
I'm sorry if you were offended. That wasn't my intent. If you really want to be a doctor then by all means go for it: there's nothing worse than feeling regret for not pursuing your goals. Good luck to you
 
You stated a very bad first year. Does this mean that your 3.2 GPA at the end figured in some sort of grade forgiveness-i.e. a black mark on the transcript but not figured into the GPA?

Actually, this may figure in significantly for the rest of the non-trad forum. Are audits/repeats/etc.etc. ever given more than the eyeball treatment? I never "repeated" a class even when it was permissible-in undergrad I could have repeated an A.P. credit to get the "easy" A. Similarly, in grad school I could potentially have repeated a class (if for no other reason to show I learned and understood the material-I'm specifically talking about PChem here...I love that nightmare now, wasn't obvious at the time) Will the adcoms recognize this?

I have a pat answer for what I think my GPA "should be" but I wonder if this should be fodder for an interview?

TIA for any help, and GL 2 OP👍