3rd year grades...

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Scaredshizzles

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I'm going to start my rotations soon. I was wondering do you like need honors in every clerkship to get into a top residency? Are there a a bunch of people who will get honors in everything or is it pretty rare??

Also, how important is it to make small talk and stuff with interns/residents/attendings etc? I'm god awful at making small talk. It's not that I'm antisocial or anything, but I used to be really shy when younger (I think they call it social phobia these days) and so I never really learned to make small talk when younger....which makes me socially awkward now. I'm fairly talkative when it comes to clinical discussions and I'm not afraid to ask medical questions, I just can't make small talk..Any advice from anyone?

thanks
 
I'm going to start my rotations soon. I was wondering do you like need honors in every clerkship to get into a top residency? Are there a a bunch of people who will get honors in everything or is it pretty rare??

Also, how important is it to make small talk and stuff with interns/residents/attendings etc? I'm god awful at making small talk. It's not that I'm antisocial or anything, but I used to be really shy when younger (I think they call it social phobia these days) and so I never really learned to make small talk when younger....which makes me socially awkward now. I'm fairly talkative when it comes to clinical discussions and I'm not afraid to ask medical questions, I just can't make small talk..Any advice from anyone?

thanks

3rd year grades are entirely subjective. They are many times not correlated at all with your performance. You can work your butt off and be awsome but if you are not well liked, or if the resident/attending whoever has a bad day, you might get an awful eval. On the other hand, if your residents, etc. like you, you are likely to get good grades. It's not so much that it's terribly hard to get clinical honors, but because you need a very high score on the shelf as well, sometimes they are hard to maintain. That's at my school at least. Can't speak for others. Good luck!
 
It really depends on your school.

At my school getting honors is very difficult, but people have matched in competitive fields at competitive places without any clinical honors.

I also tend to be quite when placed at the bottom of a hierarchy system but it hasn't really been an issue. I try to ask smart questions after doing some reading, and make sure my presentations are polished.

If you're at a loss for something to talk about on a slow day, ask your resident why they chose the field they're in. You will learn a lot about both your team member and a potential career.
 
Thanks for the responses. So it sounds like you still have a decent shot without everything in honors. I tend to do really well on written tests usually so that part doesn't concern me. It is my ability to make any kind of impression in a short rotation when it takes me a week or two to just adjust because of my shyness, that concerns me. I'm also a tad slow at learning hands on things, although eventually I get good at it. I just wish the entire 3rd year was like under one team or something so I wouldn't have to worry about make a good first impression every few weeks.
 
Thanks for the responses. So it sounds like you still have a decent shot without everything in honors. I tend to do really well on written tests usually so that part doesn't concern me. It is my ability to make any kind of impression in a short rotation when it takes me a week or two to just adjust because of my shyness, that concerns me. I'm also a tad slow at learning hands on things, although eventually I get good at it. I just wish the entire 3rd year was like under one team or something so I wouldn't have to worry about make a good first impression every few weeks.

Well the problem is that I would assume this is at all schools, the clinical portion is the one that makes up most of the grade. At mine: it's 70 clinical and 30shelf. so even if you get a great shelf (which btw-they are hard in my opinion!) score, you still need to do well on clinical to get outstanding out of rotation. also, i think it's rather uncommon for most ppl to get alot of honors.
 
Thanks for the responses. So it sounds like you still have a decent shot without everything in honors. I tend to do really well on written tests usually so that part doesn't concern me. It is my ability to make any kind of impression in a short rotation when it takes me a week or two to just adjust because of my shyness, that concerns me. I'm also a tad slow at learning hands on things, although eventually I get good at it. I just wish the entire 3rd year was like under one team or something so I wouldn't have to worry about make a good first impression every few weeks.

You definitely need to adjust super-fast, i.e. deterine your role, figure out what level of conversation you need to have with attendings and residents, and then roll over the rotation like a steam-roller.

1. Don't be shy at all. At my best I would be volunteering to do stuff every *day*, i.e. pick up extra patients, go to radiology, go watch a procedure, volunteer to present a topic, volunteer to clean up after a noon conference, do impromptu teaching of others. I don't think you have to be social at all, or even know what is *cool* in current pop-cultures, I don't. But if a resident is talking about something I don't know about like kayaking or something, which I'll admit residents say some pretty interesting things, I will ask them questions as otherwise we will just be standing around waiting for the attending. Don't be fooled by overly intimidating attendings, this is not the military, its is ok to small-talk with people who are only a couple of years ahead of you.

2. Hi-Jack the rotation. Some rotations the residents may not be into teaching that month, or the attending may not be into teaching, or students may be given less responsibility than normal. You have to make the rotation work for you, the student. Never, should you walk away and say that you weren't taught enough, if you can read a medicine textbook, and if you can look at your patient's chart, then you can piece together how the care happened the way it did, and you can ask good questions to the attendings later on, rather than asking a question for questions sake. If you felt you didn't learn enough, then probably you didn't understand half of what was happening around you, there are always interesting cases and bread and butter cases being managed at hospitals, and 100% you can learn something new from every patient. Rotations don't feel like tedious work for me, because I am trying to extract as much learning, trying to take care of patients, and be productive doing "scut". There really isn't anything that is "scut" on a rotation, even filling out the almighty list of patients you learn, I have done real scut as a semi-patient care technician before medical school. I think I have done really well on my rotations last year because other med students sit around and blabber, I look at it as a job instead of trying to be the good 'lil observer, attendings pickup on this because under no circumstance will I ever try to get out of doing something or seeing an extra surgery, I am there to work and learn period. Alot of med students, and some interns, residents, and attendings that I have worked with, have zero work ethic, I feel sorry for them, but apparently my work ethics has impressed alot of attendings. Especially surgeons, I scare the crap out of surgery residents for some reason, at least the lazy ones.
 
By the end of third year I learned that it was not necessary to stick around the residents and attendings all the time like the clerkship directors would have you believe. I was around when I needed to be and thats it. Besides that I spent my time studying or just catching up on sleep on some random couch. I honored all three of my last rotations using this method (its not easy to get honors at my school). I think in order to get a good evaluation you have to make a good first impression, after that it doesnt really matter.
 
At my school, honors is very difficult (15-20% per rotation at absolute most). The people are very competitive. That being said, virtually no one honors all seven 3rd year rotations. I have actually never even heard of 6/7.

The most that I've heard is 4/7, which happens every year with a few super-motivated studs. One guy a few years back had 4/7 and 250+ on step I and matched at one of the most competitive neurosurg residencies in the country (no research either). Clearly there are many other factors that go in, but what I'm trying to say is that not getting all honors didn't keep him from matching very well.

I think the most important thing is doing your best to honor the clerkship for the field that you are interesting in going into. If you don't know yet, IM and surg are always key clerkships to give it your all. Rotations like family, neuro and psych tend to be lower on "pan-applicable" totem, unless of course you are interested in these or related fields.
 
I hear you all. It's just easier said than done for some of us, being aggressive and putting oneself forward, etc.
 
I hear you all. It's just easier said than done for some of us, being aggressive and putting oneself forward, etc.

Well I don't necessarily think being aggressive is the answer honestly. I am shy myself and I got a clinical outstanding my first rotation even though I was shy. When I met with my site director and resident, who both gave me outstandings, they told me that even though I may be perceived as "quiet" I did great work and was awsome with patients. I have done very well in other rotations as well, and although I am not a beacon of spontaneity with the residents or attendings, I know my patients well, do great presentations (yes i was scared to death initially!!), and overall carry myself in a way that shows that I care and want to learn, am interested. Trust me you don't need to be super extroverted to get clinical outstandings!
 
volunteer to clean up after a noon conference, do impromptu teaching of others.

Hi-Jack the rotation.

Alot of med students, and some interns, residents, and attendings that I have worked with, have zero work ethic, I feel sorry for them

:barf: I think that says it all.
 
I think in order to get a good evaluation you have to make a good first impression, after that it doesnt really matter.
I totally agree with this. I think it is important to do some good work, but also get out of the way. It doesn't necessarily have to be the first thing you do, but there is definitely such a thing as being too enthusiastic.
 
I'm going to start my rotations soon. I was wondering do you like need honors in every clerkship to get into a top residency? Are there a a bunch of people who will get honors in everything or is it pretty rare??

thanks

You may have picked this up a little from other people's answers, but this is very school dependent. Program directors do know your school's policy on giving honors. So if you attend a school where honors and high passes are given out like candy and >50% of your class earns honors, then yes, you need to honor everything to get a top residency. Many schools strictly restrict honors/high pass to the top 20% or less... in that case you won't need to honor everything (although it's nice to honor something!).

And you really don't need to "make small talk". Just be pleasant and smile, and you'll do fine.
 
snip

Rotations don't feel like tedious work for me, because I am trying to extract as much learning, trying to take care of patients, and be productive doing "scut". There really isn't anything that is "scut" on a rotation, even filling out the almighty list of patients you learn, I have done real scut as a semi-patient care technician before medical school. I think I have done really well on my rotations last year because other med students sit around and blabber, I look at it as a job instead of trying to be the good 'lil observer, attendings pickup on this because under no circumstance will I ever try to get out of doing something or seeing an extra surgery, I am there to work and learn period.

and sniiiiip

Oh, so you mean that when I left in the middle of rounds to drive to my attending's house to let the maid in, that wasn't scut? Thank God, I was worried there for a second. By the way, other students "blabber" because they aren't medicine machines like you apparently are. Don't assume that because people have outside interests and *gasp* discuss them while at "work" that they are any less effective than you are.
 
At my school, honors is very difficult (15-20% per rotation at absolute most). The people are very competitive. That being said, virtually no one honors all seven 3rd year rotations. I have actually never even heard of 6/7.

The most that I've heard is 4/7, which happens every year with a few super-motivated studs. One guy a few years back had 4/7 and 250+ on step I and matched at one of the most competitive neurosurg residencies in the country (no research either). Clearly there are many other factors that go in, but what I'm trying to say is that not getting all honors didn't keep him from matching very well.

I think the most important thing is doing your best to honor the clerkship for the field that you are interesting in going into. If you don't know yet, IM and surg are always key clerkships to give it your all. Rotations like family, neuro and psych tend to be lower on "pan-applicable" totem, unless of course you are interested in these or related fields.

Is that the norm usually-15-20% per rotation as opposed to 15-20% of the entire class? I wonder about that because for example say you go into a certain rotation at the end of the year where all the H's have been given out, not matter how great you are, you won't get one right?
 
at my school, it is the top 15% of the class, and Honors are given out at the end of MS3 year, after all grades are in for the whole class allowing for this judgment to be made.
 
An honors grade is supposedly only for the top 5% at my school. 😱
 
As has been stated before, the grading break down is also sent to all residency programs in addition to your grades - so PDs are aware of how impossible that honors you got was or on the flip side how much more your high pass means than the person who got high pass at a school where 40% get honors.

The unfortunate thing is that often these subtle aspects of grading do not translate into more than a subjective acknowledgement (vs the "objective" invitation to join AOA, etc...).
 
I must disagree with one of your points.

3rd year grades are entirely subjective. They are many times not correlated at all with your performance.

No, theyre NOT entirely subjective. At my school, and Im sure most others, the Shelf Exam is incorporated as some percentage into your final grade. That alone adds objectivity to it. In some rotations at my school, they even incorporate standardized patient encounters and 'accountability' (turning in assignments on time, not being late, etc).

You can work your butt off and be awsome but if you are not well liked, or if the resident/attending whoever has a bad day, you might get an awful eval. On the other hand, if your residents, etc. like you, you are likely to get good grades. It's not so much that it's terribly hard to get clinical honors, but because you need a very high score on the shelf as well, sometimes they are hard to maintain. That's at my school at least. Can't speak for others. Good luck!

Agreed. 👍
 
Schools are usually required to make the criteria available to the student, but keep in mind that even though most schools have it, not all of them do. At our school it is a function of a small contribution from pre-clinical grades and Step I with the majority being determined by 3rd year grades. Community service, research, extracurriculars, 4th year grades and Step 2 all do NOT go into determining who is invited to join. I know at other schools this is definitely not the case.
 
...roll over the rotation like a steam-roller.

1. Don't be shy at all...volunteer to clean up after a noon conference, do impromptu teaching of others. I don't think you have to be social at all, or even know what is *cool* in current pop-cultures, I don't....
2. Hi-Jack the rotation. ...If you felt you didn't learn enough, then probably you didn't understand half of what was happening around you...There really isn't anything that is "scut" on a rotation, even filling out the almighty list of patients you learn, I have done real scut as a semi-patient care technician before medical school. I think I have done really well on my rotations last year because other med students sit around and blabber, ...Alot of med students, and some interns, residents, and attendings that I have worked with, have zero work ethic, I feel sorry for them, but apparently my work ethics has impressed alot of attendings

You are single-handedly making me (and perhaps others like me) less and less likely to come to this forum. I don't need to hear your overly long, self-congratulatory thoughts on every thread that falls into your expansive areas of expertise. Consider toning it down.
 
I must disagree with one of your points.



No, theyre NOT entirely subjective. At my school, and Im sure most others, the Shelf Exam is incorporated as some percentage into your final grade. That alone adds objectivity to it. In some rotations at my school, they even incorporate standardized patient encounters and 'accountability' (turning in assignments on time, not being late, etc).



Agreed. 👍


Ummm, I was referring to the clinical part of the grade being subjective. Obviously the shelf exam is not subjective. Also, the whole thing about getting certain points for turning stuff in is plain ridiculous IMHO. We are not in high school anymore, that should be mandatory. In my school at least, if you don't turn in patient logs or whatever, you simply don't get your grade until you do so. It would be great to have 10points or 10% of the grade like others do though just for turning things in.
 
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