4.0 Drones?

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Spinach Dip said:
The following is my experience, so take it with a grain of salt.


Having a 4.0 (or even a 3.9+) is highly correlated with having helicopter parents who pushed little Jhonny/Jessica throughout HS (and now college) to attend to their studies to the detriment of everything else. They are almost always bio majors. Any EC they are engaged in is solely to make themselves look good, and they put in the bare minimum effort to include that in their resume later. They also tend to enjoy mission trips (er, medical tourism). These mission trips are subsidized by their helicopter parents. They are almost always white and upper-middle class.

They usually have been pressured into the premed path by their parents, or have chosen it in order to be impressive or prestigious. They have never taken time out for their own hobbies. They have never written a novel, nor even read one outside of that required lit class they took freshman year.

They have never had to deal with real adversity (ala parents getting divorced or major surgery followed by months of hospital stays/recovery). They tend to think that maintaining a 4.0 entitles them to entrance into the med school of their choice.

Overall, they expect things to be handed to them on a silver platter.
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The most coddled people I know that fit this to a T also got into top 5s. The exception is that they usually play a classical instrument too (parent's choice). People on sdn really like to think that the med school admissions game is somehow just, or that interviewers see through these people. Nope. Medical school admissions continue to love these "medical mission trips" that end up really being a vacation to an island resort, and "hospital volunteering" which in almost all instances is fetching warm blankets.

If I were an adcom a medical mission trip (outside the country) would be a HUGE strike against them, but for any pre-meds reading this just play the game. It sucks, but fundraising for a vacation to puerto rico may make you feel ethically horrible, but probably not as horrible as if you got denied a cycle (which thankfully didn't happen to me).
 
Can't speak to how often it happens, but I've definitely interviewed a handful of applicants who looked fantastic on paper (recent grad, 3.9+GPA, solid MCAT) and they were very boring/cookie cutter in real life (picture being unable to answer "what do you do for fun besides studying?"). One even looked like they were going to fall asleep during the interview. Needless to say, ranked very low on the waitlist, if not rejected post interview.

It's not the grade/MCAT score alone that gets you rejected/judged (unless it's very low) - it's the lack of proof-reading, experience, poorly written PS, bad interviewing, or everything else that makes people wonder, "why did they even apply?" or "Why do they want to go to med school?"
 
Spinach Dip said:
The following is my experience, so take it with a grain of salt.


Having a 4.0 (or even a 3.9+) is highly correlated with having helicopter parents who pushed little Jhonny/Jessica throughout HS (and now college) to attend to their studies to the detriment of everything else. They are almost always bio majors. Any EC they are engaged in is solely to make themselves look good, and they put in the bare minimum effort to include that in their resume later. They also tend to enjoy mission trips (er, medical tourism). These mission trips are subsidized by their helicopter parents. They are almost always white and upper-middle class.

They usually have been pressured into the premed path by their parents, or have chosen it in order to be impressive or prestigious. They have never taken time out for their own hobbies. They have never written a novel, nor even read one outside of that required lit class they took freshman year.

They have never had to deal with real adversity (ala parents getting divorced or major surgery followed by months of hospital stays/recovery). They tend to think that maintaining a 4.0 entitles them to entrance into the med school of their choice.

Overall, they expect things to be handed to them on a silver platter.
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There is little in this premed game of ours I despise more than volunteer tourism. I wish schools stopped valuing these experiences that rich kids do to check that exotic underserved population stuff off their list. Lets spend 3000 dollars flying to Nicaragua to work at some clinic for 1 week, then spend the second week on an "adventure" tour (coughbeachescough). Smh.
 
Are you aware that Adcoms consider this "medical tourism", and give it no credit? We know people are really visiting Nana/Abuela/Ajima in the old country, then go say "hello" to the family doc, and subsequently call it "medical mission to X country".

Interestingly, the "missions" are never backed up with a LOR from a preceptor of any kind.



heebeejeebies said:
There is little in this premed game of ours I despise more than volunteer tourism. I wish schools stopped valuing these experiences that rich kids do to check that exotic underserved population stuff off their list. Lets spend 3000 dollars flying to Nicaragua to work at some clinic for 1 week, then spend the second week on an "adventure" tour (coughbeachescough). Smh.
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Goro said:
Are you aware that Adcoms consider this "medical tourism", and give it no credit? We know people are really visiting Nana/Abuela/Ajima in the old country, then go say "hello" to the family doc, and subsequently call it "medical mission to X country".

Interestingly, the "missions" are never backed up with a LOR from a preceptor of any kind.
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I sure as hell hope so and am happy to hear as much. It still passes as clinical volunteering Canada though, most people I know have had success with doing the Haiti etc. stuff.
 
On the topic of 4.0 drones, I myself have a 4.0. But I'd hardly consider myself a drone, I just have a knack for understanding the syllabus and my own strength with impending deadlines (read: caffeine fueled desperation driven cramming 2 nights before due dates). Unfortunately throughout undergrad I played a little too much of the going out game during the school year (I worked 60 hr weeks in the summers to pay for school, so I indulged in the free time while I was there), and only now in grad school have I began to catch up on my ECs. So I can't exactly tell adcoms "I promise I wasn't a library monkey I was just going out when I wasn't studying"... I'll have a fun time trying to sell this "ghost time" on my apps hah.
 
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Spinach Dip said:
The following is my experience, so take it with a grain of salt.


Having a 4.0 (or even a 3.9+) is highly correlated with having helicopter parents who pushed little Jhonny/Jessica throughout HS (and now college) to attend to their studies to the detriment of everything else. They are almost always bio majors. Any EC they are engaged in is solely to make themselves look good, and they put in the bare minimum effort to include that in their resume later. They also tend to enjoy mission trips (er, medical tourism). These mission trips are subsidized by their helicopter parents. They are almost always white and upper-middle class.

They usually have been pressured into the premed path by their parents, or have chosen it in order to be impressive or prestigious. They have never taken time out for their own hobbies. They have never written a novel, nor even read one outside of that required lit class they took freshman year.

They have never had to deal with real adversity (ala parents getting divorced or major surgery followed by months of hospital stays/recovery). They tend to think that maintaining a 4.0 entitles them to entrance into the med school of their choice.

Overall, they expect things to be handed to them on a silver platter.
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My undergrad university GPA is a 3.97 (top 1.x% in my department out of around 100 students) and my overall GPA is a 3.9 (mainly due to a few Bs in community college courses). A large portion of my early years were spent in a relatively chaotic post-divorce environment in a single parent household, only one of my parents has a college degree which was obtained at about the time I was entering high school (my parents grew up varying degrees of poor), and when I graduated high school I went to work in not the most enjoyable (though not terrible) occupations and started taking courses at community college... few real role models and little guidance about what to do in life or how to get there. After a time decided I wanted to pursue a university degree and transferred. I can't say whether your suppositions are correct in general, but they couldn't be more different from my experiences.

Oh, and I read for pleasure as much as I have time for, and have since I was in elementary school. These days on Kindle.
 
I don't know any confirmed 4.0 drones--that is, I know some drones, but I don't know their gpas.

I have a 4.0, but I consider myself the opposite of a drone considering how I would define drone. Interestingly, my AMCAS gpa isn't a 4.0 because of classes I signed up for 5 years ago, never attended and never dropped due to a car accident that left me in a 7-day coma.
 
This is less true of high GPAs, but there is definitely a correlation between high MCAT scores and social weirdness. It is almost the exception rather than the rule that someone with a high MCAT (40+) is relatively normal. I reviewed plenty of applicants last year on the committee that had great numbers and a great application on paper but were ultimately not accepted due to bad interviews. It happens with some frequency. However, those people aren't screened out - it's not as if people with high numbers are actively selected against. That would be stupid and akin to the ridiculous "too good for this school" argument. However, the higher the LizzyM, the more socially awkward the applicant I've noticed...
 
allantois said:
I don't exactly have a 4.0 as I got one B, but by no means do I spend all my time studying in the library (I don't ever). I would say that I study less than an average student, and in fact usually cram 2-3 days before any given test. I do, on the other hand, know the syllabus front to back and know exactly what my grade is and grab every point I can get (it's really become an effortless habit by now). It also helps to research your professor before signing up for a class with them.

As a TA myself, I'm always surprised that almost no students care to come check their grade to make sure that their work was graded correctly (or better yet the questions were written correctly!) and if you don't take the initiative in your hand, then of course I will assume that you are happy with your grade. If it's a subjective class (writting papers or lab reports) then there's even more room for dispute.
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No one likes pretentious students like you who regularly dispute grades.
 
Jagon said:
No one likes pretentious students like you who regularly dispute grades.
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It often makes sense to dispute because whether you annoy a TA matters none and whether you bump up your grade matters some.

Personally, I hate the condescending ****s who put down others for their behaviors instead of just quietly earning their own 4.00 without comment
 
Goro said:
Are you aware that Adcoms consider this "medical tourism", and give it no credit? We know people are really visiting Nana/Abuela/Ajima in the old country, then go say "hello" to the family doc, and subsequently call it "medical mission to X country".

Interestingly, the "missions" are never backed up with a LOR from a preceptor of any kind.
Click to expand...
Well adcoms aren't uniformly dismissing it because my friends that did it wholeheartedly recommended it. They said they talked about it at every interview and people were really impressed. I'm sure they basically lied if their FB photos are any indication, or the interviewers are really into partying and tanning beaches as EC.

It may be different for DO, these were top 20 and even top 5 MD programs.

Spending 3000 to supply unskilled manual labor for a couple days and then hitting the beach is just so wrong I couldn't force myself to do it. In retrospect I should have sucked it up and done it anyway.
 
efle said:
Personally, I hate ... who put down others for their behaviors instead of just quietly earning their own 4.00 without comment
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It's always best, imo, to be the one standing in the corner, quietly pulling others along on the journey and then watching them succeed. I do this at work and not one thing gives me greater satisfaction as seeing others celebrate their win, quietly knowing I was the caboose or steam engine that told them they could. And they did. And they will continue to long after I'm gone.

Through all of my pre-reqs - many of my best friends are students FAR younger than me - I did whatever I could to help someone. If they were willing to ask how I maintained a full time job, raised a son on my own, and got my little fancy GPA ... I asked them to join me in the conference room I'd reserved for the entire semester and I'd show them. One of them turned her C- into a B+ in orgo ... THAT made me far happier than my A.

And next week, I will be at her graduation from the University; cheering her on, celebrating HER wins... and I likewise know, that if someday I'm adorned at a ceremony granting me a little white coat, she will be there too.

If I could say one thing about some of us with that fancy GPA (mine is not a 4.0), is that ultimately we want to help... whether that is in a clinic setting or a classroom. As a non-trad I often feel it's my obligation to help because ... if someone had helped me, I would not be on a forum for premeds as a premed, I'd be on this forum as a practicing physician helping premeds.
 
I graduated with 4.0... In hindsight, I wish I did not. From my experience, as soon as you post that you have a 4.0, people automatically assume you're a robot. While someone with a 3.97 has character.
I'm sure on paper I almost fit that role... 3 years of research experience with spending my summers in the lab. I feel like if you just read that, you would assume I am a nerd robot with no interpersonal skills. If you drive deeper thought you'll see my EC show that I am not a drone. (at least I would hope so)
 
Nah yall are trippin, grade grubbers are the worst. I mean it's one thing if your test is seriously misgraded but if you go to office hours just to snag one extra point you're wack. I try to just put myself in the position where I'm not two points away from a grade threshold and knock on wood it's worked so far.

To me the notion that you should negatively judge someone's sociability based on their grade point is absurd. There many be many other factors at play. Someone I know got a 4.0 sophomore year after a more pedestrian freshman year just by cutting back on his substance use substantially. But that person's sociability certainly didn't change, just his time management.

And I don't like this dichotomy yall are drawing between no ECs and being sociable. A lot of tryhard premeds at my school do a TON of ECs but they're still robotic, uninteresting people. Actually the premeds at my school who do LESS are more interesting people because they're giving themselves time to go out, have friends, read books, be spontaneous etc.
 
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Cpt Ahab said:
4.0 drones? Some people are just really, really smart. I took a class w/ this kid and he absorbed everything like a sponge. It was disturbing. Just because someone has a 4.0 doesn't mean they're a library nerd. Some people are born with better brains; such is life.

I see your point, but I'm just giving you another angle to consider.
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This is how I was in ochem - the whole subject just makes sense to me and I destroyed stuff with the same or less effort than my peers. Compare to physics and other math based disciplines, where I need to bust it to stay alive.
 
werunthis said:
I also make sure I get every point I earned. That doesn't make me pretension, that makes me pre-med.

I've also learned it always makes the difference between an A and A-.
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I TOTALLY AGREE!!! I have disputed around ~5 grades so far. I am still trying to get two grades changed. One from freshman year, one from last summer. I'm not giving up.
 
StudyLater said:
And you don't immediately notify them of their mistake? I thought we were supposed to be compassionate 😱...or is that just on paper?
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I used to try to give advice but it's futile. I know like 50% of premeds I talk to have no volunteer experience and no shadowing. When I suggest they need to get some in they give me this look like, "you're not my mom."

I've even told people I would hook them up to shadow w/ my city's best neurosurgeons and still they don't bite.

The thing is, some people are just LaZy..
 
MrBen14 said:
I graduated with 4.0... In hindsight, I wish I did not. From my experience, as soon as you post that you have a 4.0, people automatically assume you're a robot. While someone with a 3.97 has character.
I'm sure on paper I almost fit that role... 3 years of research experience with spending my summers in the lab. I feel like if you just read that, you would assume I am a nerd robot with no interpersonal skills. If you drive deeper thought you'll see my EC show that I am not a drone. (at least I would hope so)
Click to expand...

I've noticed this - for some reason a GPA in the 3.9 range looks way better than a 4.0. I think a high 3.9 shows some hardship with strong resilience and ability to adapt, while 4.0 looks like you "coasted." Unfair as it might be, I think from a psychological standpoint this is how our brains sometimes interpret it.
 
litotes said:
Nah yall are trippin, grade grubbers are the worst. I mean it's one thing if your test is seriously misgraded but if you go to office hours just to snag one extra point you're wack. I try to just put myself in the position where I'm not two points away from a grade threshold and knock on wood it's worked so far.

To me the notion that you should negatively judge someone's sociability based on their grade point is absurd. There many be many other factors at play. Someone I know got a 4.0 sophomore year after a more pedestrian freshman year just by cutting back on his substance use substantially. But that person's sociability certainly didn't change, just his time management.

And I don't like this dichotomy yall are drawing between no ECs and being sociable. A lot of tryhard premeds at my school do a TON of ECs but they're still robotic, uninteresting people. Actually the premeds at my school who do LESS are more interesting people because they're giving themselves time to go out, have friends, read books, be spontaneous etc.
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Strong post.

I recently quit my hospital volunteer job because it felt like I spent 250+ hours doing nothing. All we did was discharge patients, escort people to rooms, and deliver flowers. It literally felt like I was wasting my time.

I know kids w/ 500+ hours at the same hospital who sit and play games their whole shift because it's at night and the volunteer director isn't their.

I'm going to start volunteering more w/ the women's shelter and blind center because there I felt like I was truly lending a helping hand.
 
UNMedGa said:
I've noticed this - for some reason a GPA in the 3.9 range looks way better than a 4.0. I think a high 3.9 shows some hardship with strong resilience and ability to adapt, while 4.0 looks like you "coasted." Unfair as it might be, I think from a psychological standpoint this is how our brains sometimes interpret it.
Click to expand...

Saying a "high 3,9" shows "some hardship" is borderline insulting to those who have ACTUALLY gone through hardships during their college career and now are dreaming of a 3.5.



(but I do agree with the overall point of your post)
 
Spinach Dip said:
Saying a "high 3,9" shows "some hardship" is borderline insulting to those who have ACTUALLY gone through hardships during their college career and now are dreaming of a 3.5.



(but I do agree with the overall point of your post)
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Most definitely, completely agree. It's one of those unconscious biases we sometimes attach to certain things which usually turns out pretty unfairly in the end.
 
Keep in mind that there's a lot of jealousy and resentment going on in this thread. Your (and others like you) efforts are to be commended.

heebeejeebies said:
On the topic of 4.0 drones, I myself have a 4.0. But I'd hardly consider myself a drone, I just have a knack for understanding the syllabus and my own strength with impending deadlines (read: caffeine fueled desperation driven cramming 2 nights before due dates). Unfortunately throughout undergrad I played a little too much of the going out game during the school year (I worked 60 hr weeks in the summers to pay for school, so I indulged in the free time while I was there), and only now in grad school have I began to catch up on my ECs. So I can't exactly tell adcoms "I promise I wasn't a library monkey I was just going out when I wasn't studying"... I'll have a fun time trying to sell this "ghost time" on my apps hah.
Click to expand...
 
Most interviewees are really, really poor at assessing reactions of interviewers. If you don't believe me, let's ask the very sage @LizzyM and @gyngyn, both of whom are at really, really good MD schools.

resiroth said:
Well adcoms aren't uniformly dismissing it because my friends that did it wholeheartedly recommended it. They said they talked about it at every interview and people were really impressed. I'm sure they basically lied if their FB photos are any indication, or the interviewers are really into partying and tanning beaches as EC.

It may be different for DO, these were top 20 and even top 5 MD programs.
Click to expand...
 
Spinach Dip said:
Saying a "high 3,9" shows "some hardship" is borderline insulting to those who have ACTUALLY gone through hardships during their college career and now are dreaming of a 3.5.



(but I do agree with the overall point of your post)
Click to expand...
I feel you, as I fall in the "hardship with well below a 3.9" category. But the discussion is that impeccable 4.0 versus the near-impeccable but not quite, 3.9.

Even then, I have a hard time combining hardship & 3.9 in the same sentence so I doubly feel you lol.
 
Drone-Traffic-Jam-300x231.jpg
 
Goro said:
Most interviewees are really, really poor at assessing reactions of interviewers. If you don't believe me, let's ask the very sage @LizzyM and @gyngyn, both of whom are at really, really good MD schools.
Click to expand...

Sometimes we have to admit applicants despite the medical tourism because everything else on the application outweighs that "blemish". And if we talk about it at the interview it is because we have stock questions we like to ask about going abroad and/or we find it more interesting than asking about more routine experiences.
 
Ad there 'ya go!

LizzyM said:
Sometimes we have to admit applicants despite the medical tourism because everything else on the application outweighs that "blemish". And if we talk about it at the interview it is because we have stock questions we like to ask about going abroad and/or we find it more interesting than asking about more routine experiences.
Click to expand...
 
werunthis said:
I also make sure I get every point I earned. That doesn't make me pretension, that makes me pre-med.

I've also learned it always makes the difference between an A and A-.
Click to expand...
It doesn't.

Take a lap artard.
 
On the topic of grubbing for grades, I hated that as a TA and never forwarded those requests to the professor. Unless something was obviously misgraded or some other kind of clerical error occurred, I found people coming and ask for "ways to get some extra credit" or "things I can do to improve my grade" as pretty pathetic. Talk about no shame.
 
ChillDawg said:
I've heard it said by many people, med school deans, admissions directors, committee members, etc... that med schools don't want 4.0 library drones and they get rejected from med schools all the time.
Now, given a strong MCAT as well (36+) , how many so called drones don't actually get into a medical school?
I'm suspicious of these stories because they smell like feel-good anecdotes designed to motivate, but do not represent reality.
I can see top10 schools sometimes passing these applicants over, but can mid tier schools really resist accepting them?
If any adcoms read this, how many 'drones' have you PERSONALLY seen get rejected from your medical school over the years?

Do they even exist in any appreciable number, anyway?
I go to a good UC where a large swath of the Bio-type majors are premed, and I can't immediately name one such '4.0 drone'.
Is it just a label people use to feel better about themselves when comparing themselves to ultracompetitive applicants?

NOTE: I am not a 4.0 student, no skin in the game
Click to expand...
are you a triton?
 
gyngyn said:
Not rare at all with rounding.
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With all due respect, seeing that a school (in this case UF) reports 3.99 cGPA and 4.00 sGPA to MSAR as their 90th percentile, makes me think that there is no rounding involved.
 
allantois said:
With all due respect, seeing that a school (in this case UF) reports 3.99 cGPA and 4.00 sGPA to MSAR as their 90th percentile, makes me think that there is no rounding involved.
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The school specific data in the MSAR is not reported by the schools.
 
NickNaylor said:
This is less true of high GPAs, but there is definitely a correlation between high MCAT scores and social weirdness. It is almost the exception rather than the rule that someone with a high MCAT (40+) is relatively normal. I reviewed plenty of applicants last year on the committee that had great numbers and a great application on paper but were ultimately not accepted due to bad interviews. It happens with some frequency. However, those people aren't screened out - it's not as if people with high numbers are actively selected against. That would be stupid and akin to the ridiculous "too good for this school" argument. However, the higher the LizzyM, the more socially awkward the applicant I've noticed...
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So chances are DO students are less socially weird? 😉
 
Goro said:
Are you aware that Adcoms consider this "medical tourism", and give it no credit? We know people are really visiting Nana/Abuela/Ajima in the old country, then go say "hello" to the family doc, and subsequently call it "medical mission to X country".

Interestingly, the "missions" are never backed up with a LOR from a preceptor of any kind.
Click to expand...

I thought my mission trip to Nicaragua a very eye-opening experience into abject poverty. What I thought was a total joke was volunteering in the ER (the most boring summer activity ever). I now work as a ER scribe, and can actually see what is going on and adding value to the team, and not just bringing coffee, fetching paperwork as a volunteer, and waiting around to be useful. Yet the mission trip is discounted, but the volunteer is not. Most curious.
 
Rainbow Zebra said:
I thought my mission trip to Nicaragua a very eye-opening experience into abject poverty. What I thought was a total joke was volunteering in the ER (the most boring summer activity ever). I now work as a ER scribe, and can actually see what is going on and adding value to the team, and not just bringing coffee, fetching paperwork as a volunteer, and waiting around to be useful. Yet the mission trip is discounted, but the volunteer is not. Most curious.
Click to expand...

Well, it opened your eyes, but did the mission trip help anyone but you? Even fetching paperwork as a volunteer in an ED is obviously helping someone compared to providing care you're not qualified to give (and would be arrested if you did it in the States, but hey, foreign poor people don't count so go to town, premeds!).
 
22031 Alum said:
Well, it opened your eyes, but did the mission trip help anyone but you? Even fetching paperwork as a volunteer in an ED is obviously helping someone compared to providing care you're not qualified to give (and would be arrested if you did it in the States, but hey, foreign poor people don't count so go to town, premeds!).
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The Mission Trip involved helping with medical history forms (using translators), completing the paperwork, shadowing the licensed local MDs, getting the medication from the pharmacy, and trucking all the medical supplies to and from each clinic (this was a traveling clinic, going into underserved areas). I value it more than fetching coffee/blankets in the US ER).
 
Rainbow Zebra said:
The Mission Trip involved helping with medical history forms (using translators), completing the paperwork, shadowing the licensed local MDs, getting the medication from the pharmacy, and trucking all the medical supplies to and from each clinic (this was a traveling clinic, going into underserved areas). I value it more than fetching coffee/blankets in the US ER).
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Fair enough. It sounds like you were with an organization that has the staff/infrastructure to keep up their work when the tourists leave. I don't agree with the sentiment that helping people abroad is automatically more valuable, but lots of people apparently do- because of the "exotic" factor, maybe. I have never had a person describe any "eye-opening poverty" abroad that couldn't be encountered in the US for less than thousands of dollars- all the way down to no running water/sanitation or daily fear of bodily harm/death.
 
22031 Alum said:
Fair enough. It sounds like you were with an organization that has the staff/infrastructure to keep up their work when the tourists leave. I don't agree with the sentiment that helping people abroad is automatically more valuable, but lots of people apparently do- because of the "exotic" factor, maybe. I have never had a person describe any "eye-opening poverty" abroad that couldn't be encountered in the US for less than thousands of dollars- all the way down to no running water/sanitation or daily fear of bodily harm/death.
Click to expand...

Have you been to a third world country yourself?
EDIT: Off topic
 
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