41 vs 42 yrs old?

[doctorold]

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I will be 41 when I apply next year (June 2017). My application will be so-so. Nothing impressive. If I wait one more year to work on my grades and my EC's, I will have a better application.
Being an older non-traditional already, does postponing my app yet another year help or hurt in this case? Will adcoms look at me differently if I'm 42 vs 41?
I don't think that one year really matters. But I heard @Goro once saying 45 yrs and older will be pushing it. Is getting closer to that (45 yrs threshold) hurt me?
Do the "age on paper" change from when we apply in June and throughout the application cycle? What I mean is, I will be 40 when I apply in (June 2017), 2 months later I'll turn 41. If I interview say in October, will my paperwork show 40 yrs (when I applied) or 41 yrs (when I'm interviewing)?
Or I'm just obsessing over this age thing? (I think this is the 3rd post I have about age questions from different angles)
What you think? (Don't be nice and supportive. Let me have the cold hard truth. Don't hold back punches)

 

[eteshoe]

I mean you're getting up there but at this point a yr won't really make a difference IMO. You'll be close to 50 by the time your start practicing but I've seen it before.

 

[Goro]

Yes.

Apply when you have the best possible packet.

Or I'm just obsessing over this age thing?

 

[DrMidlife]

If you're going to go after med school, then: go nuts until you can get accepted someplace you can live with, be actually ready so that you don't get slaughtered, keep your sanity, and pace yourself for the long haul.

If you're not ready, and/or not likely to get accepted, regardless of age, then you're not ready, and you're not likely to get accepted.

If you're willing to give up because you can't reconcile your age with your situation, then give up.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Law2Doc]

The answer depends mostly on how much better your application will be. The short answer is nobody will focus on whether you are 41 or 42 because in both cases you are an older nontrad. You are already in that pile. If you think your application is substantially better in a year you wait a year. If we are talking marginally better, maybe not.

 

[DrMikeP]

I will be 41 when I apply next year (June 2017). My application will be so-so. Nothing impressive. If I wait one more year to work on my grades and my EC's, I will have a better application.
Being an older non-traditional already, does postponing my app yet another year help or hurt in this case? Will adcoms look at me differently if I'm 42 vs 41?
I don't think that one year really matters. But I heard @Goro once saying 45 yrs and older will be pushing it. Is getting closer to that (45 yrs threshold) hurt me?
Do the "age on paper" change from when we apply in June and throughout the application cycle? What I mean is, I will be 40 when I apply in (June 2017), 2 months later I'll turn 41. If I interview say in October, will my paperwork show 40 yrs (when I applied) or 41 yrs (when I'm interviewing)?
Or I'm just obsessing over this age thing? (I think this is the 3rd post I have about age questions from different angles)
What you think? (Don't be nice and supportive. Let me have the cold hard truth. Don't hold back punches)

Stats??? sgpa?, cgpa? MCAT? EC? Shadowing? Rec letters?

So-so could mean 2.5 or 3.4. Will retaking some sciences bring you from a 3.0 to 3.5 in a year? What will a year actually get you?

ps. Just saw in your profile a 2.1gpa? If that is the so-so then applying would be a total waste unless you want to add on a new $$$$$ medical school wing.

 

[doctorold]

Stats??? sgpa?, cgpa? MCAT? EC? Shadowing? Rec letters?

So-so could mean 2.5 or 3.4. Will retaking some sciences bring you from a 3.0 to 3.5 in a year? What will a year actually get you?

ps. Just saw in your profile a 2.1gpa? If that is the so-so then applying would be a total waste unless you want to add on a new $$$$$ medical school wing.

So-so about 3.0-3.2 sGPA & cGPA (with repeats). I expect an average MCAT. No EC yet. I have a year, so I guess I can fit in average shadowing and volunteering.
I'm urm, so will target HBCU and instate schools mainly. Will love to attend a D.O. school, but not sure if I will have a real chance with such stats.

 

[DrMikeP]

So-so about 3.0-3.2 sGPA & cGPA (with repeats). I expect an average MCAT. No EC yet. I have a year, so I guess I can fit in average shadowing and volunteering.
I'm urm, so will target HBCU and instate schools mainly. Will love to attend a D.O. school, but not sure if I will have a real chance with such stats.

Then you really have limited choice but to invest another year, assuming you don't magically get a 510+ MCAT and some awesome ECs etc in the new few months. Look at the average stats of the schools you are interested in and be above those. As an opm you must show you have what it takes academically or you're fast out of luck and you don't want to be a reapplicant.

Best of luck

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[twospadz]

I will be 41 when I apply next year (June 2017). My application will be so-so. Nothing impressive. If I wait one more year to work on my grades and my EC's, I will have a better application.
Being an older non-traditional already, does postponing my app yet another year help or hurt in this case? Will adcoms look at me differently if I'm 42 vs 41?
I don't think that one year really matters. But I heard @Goro once saying 45 yrs and older will be pushing it. Is getting closer to that (45 yrs threshold) hurt me?
Do the "age on paper" change from when we apply in June and throughout the application cycle? What I mean is, I will be 40 when I apply in (June 2017), 2 months later I'll turn 41. If I interview say in October, will my paperwork show 40 yrs (when I applied) or 41 yrs (when I'm interviewing)?
Or I'm just obsessing over this age thing? (I think this is the 3rd post I have about age questions from different angles)
What you think? (Don't be nice and supportive. Let me have the cold hard truth. Don't hold back punches)

Honestly, MD is out of the question (except maybe, maybe an HBCU like meharry). The fact you are urm is helpful but they will be too concerned about you failing out. Medical school is hard (not to point out the obvious) but I think people often understate how some medical school students don't make it or have serious bumps along the way. If you get an average mcat score, you can possibly go DO. There are some DO schools that will take a student with a pulse (the for profit ones). However, if you do ok or better on the mcat, you might get into a better DO school. Last thing, do not underestimate the mcat. I've seen it kill people's dreams who has grade point averages much higher than yours. Good luck.

 

[Goro]

What community do you represent? And please don't say "Brooklyn".

Your stats can get you into a fair number of DO schools, but not all.

So-so about 3.0-3.2 sGPA & cGPA (with repeats). I expect an average MCAT. No EC yet. I have a year, so I guess I can fit in average shadowing and volunteering.
I'm urm, so will target HBCU and instate schools mainly. Will love to attend a D.O. school, but not sure if I will have a real chance with such stats.

 

[doctorold]

What community do you represent? And please don't say "Brooklyn".

Your stats can get you into a fair number of DO schools, but not all.

I'm a black male in NC. I will be very happy if I can get into just one D.O. school (any D.O. school)
We have Campbell in NC. But I don't know if being instate will help me.


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[DrMikeP]

I'm a black male in NC. I will be very happy if I can get into just one D.O. school (any D.O. school)
We have Campbell in NC. But I don't know if being instate will help me.


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With a year of strengthening your application/gpa and strong MCAT , 501+, you have a great shot at DO as a urm. You want to get above a 3.25/sgpa if possible. Shadow a DO and get a rec letter. In state often helps. Best of luck

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[Goro]

African-American candidates are always sought after...but we'd be doing you no favors if you're accepted but are at high risk for failing out of medical school.

Your best chances will be with most DO schools, the HBCs and all NC MD schools. It might be worth trying next door SC schools as well.

I'm a black male in NC. I will be very happy if I can get into just one D.O. school (any D.O. school)
We have Campbell in NC. But I don't know if being instate will help me.


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[twospadz]

And also, be careful of certain DO schools. The name of the game is to graduate medical school with the least amount of debt as possible but also get into you desired field. A lot of them are predatory so watch out. Not trying to put you down, but I don't think you will score high or above average on the mcat to make up for your gpa so regular MD schools are off the table. I would not waste my time applying to them (except the HBCU). Despite anything anyone will tell you. the mcat is harder than step 1 and is truly an IQ test. Try your best on it, but for many even studying for it does not result in much improvement with their scores. Good luck.

 

[esob]

More than one person has correctly pointed out that there is literally nothing you can do about your age, so you should only worry about the things you can have any impact on. I'm 41 and still have 2 years before I apply, but I'm currently carrying > 100% in every class. Don't worry about your age, worry about the things you have control over 😀

 

[timephone]

And also, be careful of certain DO schools. The name of the game is to graduate medical school with the least amount of debt as possible but also get into you desired field. A lot of them are predatory so watch out. Not trying to put you down, but I don't think you will score high or above average on the mcat to make up for your gpa so regular MD schools are off the table. I would not waste my time applying to them (except the HBCU). Despite anything anyone will tell you. the mcat is harder than step 1 and is truly an IQ test. Try your best on it, but for many even studying for it does not result in much improvement with their scores. Good luck.

I'm sorry, really? I've taken neither but that is terrifying. (but also reassuring, in that if I can do well on MCAT then I know I have a shot at the STEP exams)

 

[DrMidlife]

Experiences vary.

Step 1 was the most miserable I've ever been in my life and I did not do well.

I never really did prep for the MCAT and threw a 31 without a worry.

 

[DrMidlife]

oh and I do think age is an issue for me with hours-long board exams. imho the MCAT covers more longitudinal learning vs. the steps cover things you crammed for the last 2/3/4 years. Cramming is for kids.

 

[metoo]

Please forgive me, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, I just wanted to ask a question. Do Native Americans with lower stats have the same opportunists as African Americans in terms of being accepted into DO schools? I hope to have a 3.4 in both science and cumulative GPAs and around a 3.3 to 3.5 SMP GPA. I know I will have to retake the MCAT.

BTW I'm from NC too. Go Tar Heels!!

 

[DrMidlife]

Please forgive me, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, I just wanted to ask a question. Do Native Americans with lower stats have the same opportunists as African Americans in terms of being accepted into DO schools? I hope to have a 3.4 in both science and cumulative GPAs and around a 3.3 to 3.5 SMP GPA. I know I will have to retake the MCAT.

BTW I'm from NC too. Go Tar Heels!!

Yes. Reach out to the diversity office at a med school near you. Soon.

 

[metoo]

Yes. Reach out to the diversity office at a med school near you. Soon.

Thanks a lot for your reply. I'm definitely going to do that.

 

[twospadz]

Experiences vary.

Step 1 was the most miserable I've ever been in my life and I did not do well.

I never really did prep for the MCAT and threw a 31 without a worry.

You just proved my point. MCAT is a IQ test so if your good at taking tests you will score really well with not a lot of effort. Step 1 demands good test taking skills but requires you to know a lot. You will not do well by test taking alone on step 1 which is why the people who fail the test in your medical school class are often the people you least expect.

 

[DrMikeP]

You just proved my point. MCAT is a IQ test so if your good at taking tests you will score really well with not a lot of effort. Step 1 demands good test taking skills but requires you to know a lot. You will not do well by test taking alone on step 1 which is why the people who fail the test in your medical school class are often the people you least expect.

The MCAT does have an IQ component, mostly in the CARS section, but it also requires assimilated/crystalized knowledge and multi level application of such. Test taking skills actually have limited relationship with IQ, as those are heavily behavioral and can be learned by someone with a 70-80 IQ.

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[twospadz]

The MCAT does have an IQ component, mostly in the CARS section, but it also requires assimilated/crystalized knowledge and multi level application of such. Test taking skills actually have limited relationship with IQ, as those are heavily behavioral and can be learned by someone with a 70-80 IQ.

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I agree.

 

[Citron]

When I was browsing MSAR, I noticed that a public med school in Indiana has 6 matriculants who are 40+ years old in the class entering last year. Just thought I'd let you know that it's not impossible. Not sure of their stats, though.

 

[DrMidlife]

Indiana's class size is 355. Yuuuuge.

AAMC publishes age percentiles without a lot of specifics in table A6. Varies by men & women, men do a little better over 30.
- 52,550 applicants in 2015
--> 54.2% men
--> 525 applicants in the 99th percentile
--> that oldest 1% starts at 38
- 20,631 matriculants
--> 52.5% men
--> 206 in the 99th percentile
--> that oldest 1% starts at 34 for women, 36 for men

https://www.aamc.org/download/321468/data/factstablea6.pdf

My class of 146 started with 3 over 40. Graduating with maybe 6 over 40.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Honestly, you should apply ASAP. If you don't get in, just re-apply. This re-applicant stigma thing talked about here is something I haven't witnessed when someone comes back with a better application. Being black means that you will have a higher than average chance to get in. I know my DO school (Western) would probably bend over backward to have you since they get very few black DO students.

 

[doctorold]

Honestly, you should apply ASAP. If you don't get in, just re-apply. This re-applicant stigma thing talked about here is something I haven't witnessed when someone comes back with a better application. Being black means that you will have a higher than average chance to get in. I know my DO school (Western) would probably bend over backward to have you since they get very few black DO students.

That's very nice of you to say.
Yeah, I'm terrified of being labeled a reapplicant on top of all the other labels I carry already. I heard how much harder it is for reapplicants, but I'm not sure how true is that.

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[AlbinoHawk DO]

That's very nice of you to say.
Yeah, I'm terrified of being labeled a reapplicant on top of all the other labels I carry already. I heard how much harder it is for reapplicants, but I'm not sure how true is that.

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Not at all true if you improve your application. If you are complacent, it will be seen negatively. Take this as someone that got accepted as a reapplicant.

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[DrMikeP]

That's very nice of you to say.
Yeah, I'm terrified of being labeled a reapplicant on top of all the other labels I carry already. I heard how much harder it is for reapplicants, but I'm not sure how true is that.

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Being a reapplicant is a negative, but it's not significantly bigger than most other negatives on an application at many DO schools. I know some MD schools rarely take reapplicants. Some schools in their secondaries specifically ask if you previously applied and if so they want to know what you've done different/how you've improved, so as long as you can show significant improvement in often multiple areas it's fine. Look at the schools you want to apply to and see how your current stats compare to those schools (especially if you can look at urm stats available at some schools). If you are really close or not so close then weigh that in your decision on when to apply.

You really need an MCAT score before making a decision, as without it most here are just guessing at how good or not good of a candidate you'd be!! But wait until you feel you are ready before taking it, as you don't want a really bad score to raise further questions about your abilities.

 

[Askaquestion]

I'm in a similar boat at a similar age. I'm not going to get a timely (April) MCAT score this year. My alma mater (and one of my top two choices) said I had to retake most of my prereqs. (I didn't have to retake Intro Chem since I earned a M.S. in Chemistry, but I did renew my A's in Organic with lab.) That did not deter me even while working full time for 85% of it, and I got very similar grades to my days in undergrad.

How much higher do I have to get on the MCAT than an undergrad because of my age? The average test scores would be about 510-520 for these two schools. School average + 5? + 10? One of those schools has a 0% acceptance rate for students over 30. The undergrad alma mater has a very selective medical school where I would have been an average matriculant GPA-wise.

Thanks for your replies. I am working on the other parts of the application. The MCAT is the final hurdle so I'm first in to AMCAS next June.

 

[DrMidlife]

Well, that's a new one, that the MCAT works like a carbon offset.

 

[Askaquestion]

I'm looking at it from a different perspective. There's a certain point where you are much more qualified than the average young student (grades, MCAT, service) that they can't use your age against you. I know state universities in particular can't have a per se rule against applicants over 30 (even though the 0% acceptance rate is trying to communicate that.) They can wait for the older student every 2-5 years with a 520+ MCAT in a class average of 510, grades above class average, etc. How much the MCAT realistically has to be is the puzzle I need to figure out. If I can't cross that hurdle, I know I waited too long to gain self-knowledge of what my path should have been (or subconsciously chose a Carribean medical school.)

If you have any personal experience (even if it's been longer than you will admit), please share. I would greatly appreciate it. A simple "525" without reasoning or experience doesn't help, however.

 

[DrMikeP]

I'm looking at it from a different perspective. There's a certain point where you are much more qualified than the average young student (grades, MCAT, service) that they can't use your age against you. I know state universities in particular can't have a per se rule against applicants over 30 (even though the 0% acceptance rate is trying to communicate that.) They can wait for the older student every 2-5 years with a 520+ MCAT in a class average of 510, grades above class average, etc. How much the MCAT realistically has to be is the puzzle I need to figure out. If I can't cross that hurdle, I know I waited too long to gain self-knowledge of what my path should have been (or subconsciously chose a Carribean medical school.)

If you have any personal experience (even if it's been longer than you will admit), please share. I would greatly appreciate it. A simple "525" without reasoning or experience doesn't help, however.

Unfortunately places do use age against you. It may not be right or even sometimes may not be conscious but the stats shows it happens. I had an advisor nicely tell me that they view med school as a long range 30-40 yr investment in a person and want students that best provide the most return on that investment. The oldest they ever admitted was 35. That said, they can't directly discriminate and it is definitely possible to overcome age by being a stellar candidate in other areas. I'm proof of that, but it wasn't easy and DO was the most effective route.

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[esob]

Unfortunately places do use age against you. It may not be right or even sometimes may not be conscious but the stats shows it happens. I had an advisor nicely tell me that they view med school as a long range 30-40 yr investment in a person and want students that best provide the most return on that investment. The oldest they ever admitted was 35. That said, they can't directly discriminate and it is definitely possible to overcome age by being a stellar candidate in other areas. I'm proof of that, but it wasn't easy and DO was the most effective route.

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How old were you when you applied?

 

[DrMikeP]

How old were you when you applied?

49

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[esob]

49

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Nice! Is there a post you direct me to that shows your story?

 

[DrMikeP]

Nice! Is there a post you direct me to that shows your story?

I posted in the nontrad acceptance thread but don't have it handy. You can probably find it under my posts.

 

[atomi]

I'm sorry, really? I've taken neither but that is terrifying. (but also reassuring, in that if I can do well on MCAT then I know I have a shot at the STEP exams)

No, the MCAT is an order of magnitude easier than step 1. Poster has no idea what he's talking about.

 

[QofQuimica]

This whole discussion about which test is easier is pointless (as is the discussion of whether being 42 versus 41 when one applies matters, but I've already told OP that in another thread). Both tests are difficult, and they're difficult in somewhat different ways. It is also necessary to get a decent score on both if you want to be a licensed practicing physician some day. So really, who gives a rip which test various people (subjectively, I might add) think is harder? If you want to be a doctor, you have to take them both anyway. And as someone already pointed out, your (also subjective) experience may vary. Neither test is objectively more difficult for everyone.

OP, my advice to you is unchanged. You should put together the very best app of which you are capable, apply strategically to a good mix of schools with stats in your range that take applicants from your state of residence, and then let the process work itself out. If you've truly made a full-on effort to score the best on the MCAT that you're capable of, and to assemble the best overall app package you can, then really, what more can you do? Speaking as someone who is also going through the app process again at age 41 (for fellowship in my case), just give it your very best shot, and then if it still doesn't work out, move on to Plan B. You're old enough to know by now that there are no guarantees in life. But no matter what happens, at least you'll know you had the courage to try. to you.