4th year DO student answering questions

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MiaMia14

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Hey guys, I remember getting to about this time in the year in the application process to med school and having a ton of questions. I now finally have some down time and I would be willing to answer any questions you might have (within reason of course). I saw a few of these threads in other forums and figured as a DO student I might be able to help with the osteopathic specific stuff. SDN pretty much got me through the app process and much of med school so I figure I should give back.

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how important is research and how did you go about finding positions while in medical school?
 
Thanks for taking the time!

How would you rate your med school experience on a relatively arbitrary x/10 scale? What are some pros and cons of your time in med school? What specialties are you interested in and why?
 
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I'm not sure if you are referring to in med school (as in for residency apps) or in undergrad (for med apps) but I suppose I can answer both :). I had a few years of research in undergrad and during my gap year that was on my application to med schools. I wasn't asked about it at any of my interviews. That obviously doesn't mean it wasn't a factor in their decision to invite me for an interview, but it didn't seem like it was a huge asset to my application (I had 2
MD interviews and 3 DO interviews). I was a Spanish major and volunteered in free clinics/had interpreting experience and that came up way more often and seemed to have a much bigger impact on whether or not I was invited for an interview.

In terms of research for residency, it really depends on what you want to go into. I had the same research on my residency app and still have only been asked about it once and it seemed more out of curiosity than anything. If you are planning on going into a competitive specialty it can only help your application to have specialty related research but I think on the whole it isn't a HUGE factor for what most people want to go into. For what it's worth very few of the people I know did research in med school (not sure about research pre-med school) and most everyone is doing fine.

I will say that DO schools definitely don't focus on research as much as they focus on who you are as a person. Like I said, I was asked much more about my Spanish and wanting to work with the underserved than anything else in my app. Do research if you are interested in something. If not, don't just try to check the box, find something you will be passionate about because DO schools are much more focused on that than they are on checking off the normal boxes.
 
Thanks for taking the time!

How would you rate your med school experience on a relatively arbitrary x/10 scale? What are some pros and cons of your time in med school? What specialties are you interested in and why?

I think a lot of my friends would probably laugh at me when I say this, but I honestly had a good time in med school. I mean, it's stressful, and there are times when it really sucks (right before exams, boards, etc), but I would say on a scale of 1-10 I would rate it maybe a 7?

Obviously the pro of med school is getting to be a physician by the end of it haha. But seriously, I have actually made friends that I know I will have for the rest of my life, and I think besides it letting me be a doctor, that is the biggest pro.

I will direct you to the "pros and cons of your med school" thread in the osteo students forum for a complete review of my school, but I think the biggest con that can be applied to probably 90% of DO schools in general is the traveling that tends to have to occur 3rd and 4th year. Even if you have a home hospital that you can do all of your required rotations at, as a DO student we tend to have to do more "audition" rotations 4th year at programs we want to do residency at (just due to the nature of most places not knowing where our schools are/reputation). I have been in a different state every month since July and I am EXHAUSTED. It's emotionally and physically draining living out of a suitcase for months at a time and having to figure out a new hospital, new nurses, new computer system, how each program does things, meeting new people, finding new places to eat, learning where the cafeteria is, etc (I could go on and on). People outside of medicine tend to be like "oh wow that's awesome you get to travel" and don't understand how hard it is (something me and my boyfriend fought about quite a bit in the last few months). Not to mention the fact that you are constantly wondering if you are going to match.

Even with all that, I would do it all over again. I am applying to Ob/Gyn so I will have many more stressful, sleepless nights, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I love Ob because there is a ton of variety. Something I didn't realize before rotating was that Ob has a HUGE scope of practice. I love the OR and there are a lot of operations that you can do on the Gyn side of the specialty. There are also a lot of in office procedures as well as the chance that a baby could deliver in the middle of the day to break up the monotony of clinic. You get to have a long term relationship with patients...they could come to you when they are 21 for their first pap smear, see you every year for that until they have a baby, then you get to deliver their babies, then when they have prolapse you can help with that too (although usually the subspecialists take over at that point). What I'm trying to say is you can have them as patients for 30 or so years, and you don't always have to do clinic all the time. I know Ob's that have delivered multiple generations of patients babies and I think that is really amazing as well. The uncertainty of the specialty day by day was something that appealed to me (I might be eating my words later haha).
 
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Did you take the USMLE Step 1 and 2? If so, do you feel that you had an adequate amount of time to study for them in addition to taking the comlex?
 
Did you take the USMLE Step 1 and 2? If so, do you feel that you had an adequate amount of time to study for them in addition to taking the comlex?

I didn't and I should have. I originally wanted to do something that was much more "DO friendly" (although OB is still relatively DO friendly anyway) but I was just scared that if I took it and didn't do well, I would completely screw myself over for applying to MD residencies, when I could take just COMLEX and still have a shot. In retrospect I should have just sucked it up and taken USMLE.. it would have opened a lot more doors for me. That being said, I got 7 MD interviews and 10 DO interviews with a relatively average COMLEX score only, so it seems like it will work out ok...I guess we will see on match day. Still though, I would advise everyone to take the USMLE if you think you can do at least average. After my second year my school gave us about 3 weeks to study for COMLEX...that has since changed and they now get somewhere along the lines of 4-6 I think. We weren't required to take the USMLE by any date.We did have a requirement of mid June for COMLEX, but then had about a month off afterwards before rotations started so there was plenty of time in there to study for the other exam. However, if you are studying for COMLEX you are studying for the USMLE and vice versa. The material is the same except that the USMLE tends to ask about more small detail/biochem minutiae, etc. I used uworld (the standard USMLE practice question set) as well as a comlex specific qbank along with a course designed mostly for usmle to study so the materials are essentially the same. A lot of people will just study with all of the usmle prep stuff and then do a bunch of questions on combank or comquest to get a feel for the types of questions along with some OMM specific studying a few days before the test.
 
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What were you looking for in a residency program? How would you suggest one should go about researching different programs? What aspects are important and what are not as important?
 
Hey guys, I remember getting to about this time in the year in the application process to med school and having a ton of questions. I now finally have some down time and I would be willing to answer any questions you might have (within reason of course). I saw a few of these threads in other forums and figured as a DO student I might be able to help with the osteopathic specific stuff. SDN pretty much got me through the app process and much of med school so I figure I should give back.
are-you-wizard.jpg

If so, what level?

Also, are you happy with your education overall looking back?
 
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What were you looking for in a residency program? How would you suggest one should go about researching different programs? What aspects are important and what are not as important?

The answer to this is going to be very specialty specific and very person specific. I first made a list by locations my boyfriend would be able to transfer to with his current job. Then I looked at their websites to see if they had DOs in the program currently (since I didnt take the usmle and have a relatively average app I knew I wasn't going to be making any huge breakthroughs into programs that don't typically take DOs). There is a website called FREIDA that gives statistics about all the residencies in the US. A lot of it is outdated but that was where I started. Some of them have a "minimum" comlex score to apply, so I made note of those. At programs I actually interviewed at the thing I was mainly concerned with was if the residents seemed happy/got along, if the faculty seemed to care about the residents and their education, and what their surgical numbers were and if they were actually being able to have a fair amount of autonomy in the OR. In Ob, I have noticed that there are many programs where the numbers "technically" are ok, but when you talk to the residents they would say they didn't feel like they were adequately prepared to be doing a certain operation by themselves. This seemed to be the biggest discrepancy among programs, so that was what I focused on. What is and isn't important is really going to differ between specialties though and even by applicant so it is hard to say. For example, the type of call schedule seemed to be a question commonly asked at interviews...it seems most places are on a night float system, and with work hour restrictions it really isn't as big of a deal anymore. You will figure out on auditions/at interviews what is important to you.
 
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@Mad Jack...I wish I was cool enough to understand the reference, haha. But, I guess I am not a wizard. I will again point you towards my comment in the "pros and cons of your do school" since it is a pretty lengthy answer to the "am I happy with my education" question, but the short answer would be yes. I got to be a doctor because of LMU and I feel like it was more on the side of less painful than more painful in terms of getting to where I want to be. At some points in my 4 years I sometimes felt like I was working against my school instead of having them work for me...but no school can be perfect for every student, and I think most of my issues with DCOM would be found at many other DO schools as well as MD schools. I am extremely grateful for my education and I would do it over again if I had the choice.
 
@Mad Jack...I wish I was cool enough to understand the reference, haha. But, I guess I am not a wizard. I will again point you towards my comment in the "pros and cons of your do school" since it is a pretty lengthy answer to the "am I happy with my education" question, but the short answer would be yes. I got to be a doctor because of LMU and I feel like it was more on the side of less painful than more painful in terms of getting to where I want to be. At some points in my 4 years I sometimes felt like I was working against my school instead of having them work for me...but no school can be perfect for every student, and I think most of my issues with DCOM would be found at many other DO schools as well as MD schools. I am extremely grateful for my education and I would do it over again if I had the choice.

Hi! Can I ask what led you to Ob/Gyn? Did you have a strong interest in endocrinology and did you also consider that in addition to Ob/Gyn?
 
If you scroll up a bit I talk about what led me to Ob. I did enjoy our endocrine course in med school, and I like the "puzzle" of it...but it wasn't really my main reason for wanting to go into the specialty. I never really considered endocrine as a specialty either. However, most of the real endocrine related issues in Ob that aren't straightforward tend to get turfed to the REI docs, which as of yet, hasn't been a subspecialty I am considering.
 
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I didn't and I should have. I originally wanted to do something that was much more "DO friendly" (although OB is still relatively DO friendly anyway) but I was just scared that if I took it and didn't do well, I would completely screw myself over for applying to MD residencies, when I could take just COMLEX and still have a shot. In retrospect I should have just sucked it up and taken USMLE.. it would have opened a lot more doors for me.

I can't speak for OB/GYN but for internal medicine at ACGME University programs, taking the USMLE is a must. If you want to train at a major academic tertiary care center, you're going to have to take (and do well) on the USMLE. The DO bias is alive and well at many top tier IM programs, however there are many strong university programs that will interview DO's with strong USMLE scores, research, etc.
 
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I can't speak for OB/GYN but for internal medicine at ACGME University programs, taking the USMLE is a must. If you want to train at a major academic tertiary care center, you're going to have to take (and do well) on the USMLE. The DO bias is alive and well at many top tier IM programs, however there are many strong university programs that will interview DO's with strong USMLE scores, research, etc.

Like I said, I definitely wish I would have because I think in any specialty the top programs aren't going to be super willing to take comlex. Having kind've dug myself in a hole, I knew I could really only apply to community programs. I applied to ~70 and I still only ended up with 7 interviews. I think taking the usmle is a must for anyone no matter the specialty so that you don't run into the same problems I have. I am definitely not advising anyone to do it like I did...BUT if you think you are in danger of failing, it is the better of the two evils to not have one, versus having a failing score. I do think that having done sub-I's at my top choices was the biggest factor in me even getting the interviews in the first place. If you can go somewhere (you have have a relatively good chance of already getting an interview based on if they accept comlex and they have DOs in the program) and rock your away, I think it really helps put you at the top of the list vs. people that have only been there for the day of the interview. The programs I feel like I have the best shot at matching at are the ones I rotated through for sure.
 
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Where did you (or medstudents in general) learn about resources like FREIDA, combank, comquest, and other stuff related to info that is important for medschool and afterwards? ?
 
do you know anyone going milmed (via say HPSP) and do they seem content or have trouble applying for residency?
 
Mostly from SDN and from students in the class above us. Honestly, our school was not very good at helping us with those sorts of things. It would be hard for them though seeing as most of those resources weren't available when they were going through the process, so it was really nice to have upperclassmen that had just gone through it to ask what method of studying/what resources were best, etc.
 
do you know anyone going milmed (via say HPSP) and do they seem content or have trouble applying for residency?

There honestly were very few in my class doing the military scholarships, and it seemed like most that did didn't go through the military match...I'm not sure what the requirements are for things like that. I think only a couple of my classmates actually went through the military match but they seem happy with where they ended up. I'm not the most versed in this topic, so hopefully other med students that are more familiar with the process will chime in.
 
I know you said you did about average on the Comlex. Mind being a little more specific? Like giving a range. I know you haven't matched yet and you might want to remain anonymous. I was just curious.
 
Between 500-520. A lot of programs I've noticed have a 500-550 cutoff (but obviously who knows how they actually think about it). And it is going to depend on the specialty too. I know people sub-500 that have a few MD as well as a few DO invites so it's possible depending on the rest of your app.
 
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SDN has decided to change all of the "it is" to tis for the holiday I guess.
 
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Hahah originally I thought it was just something you did, then I realized it happened why I typed too. I think it was my phone.

And my question: was there an adjustment period where you became accustomed to and comfortable talking to patients professionally, doing the h&p and everything associated w being a doctor? How did you adjust to that or was it simply a matter of repetition.

Also, are there any simple things you did while on rotations to achieve high clinical grades? In other words any high yield tips/tricks to leave a good impression with your patients and preceptors? Other than obvious stuff that has been seen in SDN, any unique things you picked up along the way that made things easier/ more pleasant for you, patients, and the medical staff?

Thanks for the Q $ A!
 
SDN has decided to change all of the "it is" to tis for the holiday I guess.

I just realized this omfg. I thought it was something I just wasnt in on. I'm sure other on lookers are confused also. It is interesting
 
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@Mad Jack...I wish I was cool enough to understand the reference, haha. But, I guess I am not a wizard. I will again point you towards my comment in the "pros and cons of your do school" since Tis a pretty lengthy answer to the "am I happy with my education" question, but the short answer would be yes. I got to be a doctor because of LMU and I feel like Twas more on the side of less painful than more painful in terms of getting to where I want to be. At some points in my 4 years I sometimes felt like I was working against my school instead of having them work for me...but no school can be perfect for every student, and I think most of my issues with DCOM would be found at many other DO schools as well as MD schools. I am extremely grateful for my education and I would do it over again if I had the choice.
You're actually way cooler if you don't understand it. That was like an uber nerd joke.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing your experience with us. It's good insight to have.
 
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Hahah originally I thought Twas just something you did, then I realized it happened why I typed too. I think Twas my phone.

And my question: was there an adjustment period where you became accustomed to and comfortable talking to patients professionally, doing the h&p and everything associated w being a doctor? How did you adjust to that or was it simply a matter of repetition.

Also, are there any simple things you did while on rotations to achieve high clinical grades? In other words any high yield tips/tricks to leave a good impression with your patients and preceptors? Other than obvious stuff that has been seen in SDN, any unique things you picked up along the way that made things easier/ more pleasant for you, patients, and the medical staff?

Thanks for the Q $ A!

There is definitely an adjustment period. We complained a lot about it at the time, but our school had a lot of clinical education built into our first two years. At the time, we complained that we should be learning stuff for step 1, but I am actually pretty glad we did it now. We had a ton of OSCEs and SIMs first and second year and we were required to have memorized the history form by the end of 1st semester. Memorizing that and then having done it multiple times before rotations actually made it easier to focus on the patient during 3rd year instead of remembering the questions. Also, as you learn more about disease processes and pathology you kind've innately start to tailor your H&P to the patient's problem. It happened pretty organically for me, although I made a point to pay attention to the questions my preceptor/resident would ask when they were asking the patient questions after me to see if there were things I may have missed and make sure to ask those questions next time (or if when I was presenting a patient, if there were questions the resident asked me about the patient that I may not know...if this happens, just make note of it and don't make the same mistake next time).

In terms of tips for rotations I would say just be a pleasant person. You will be able to take the lead of your preceptor...if they aren't a particularly talkative person, don't try and make small talk all the time because they could perceive it as annoying. That's not to say be a mute, but I have seen those medical students that feel like they need to fill every moment of silence and even I've been annoyed by it (and I'm pretty talkative).

-BE NICE TO THE NURSES. Get to know them, treat them like normal human beings. I can't tell you how many times I've had nurses tell me "you are one of the few medical students we like" haha. I'm not sure what the other med students are doing to piss off the nurses so much...but I think if you don't act superior or awkward you will be ok. I also tried to help out during down time. I would make sure if they showed me where something was once, I would be able to find it again when asked by the nurses or by my preceptor.

-Don't ask dumb questions....there are dumb questions. Things you can easily look up probably aren't questions that should be asked all the time. I'm not saying I never did it, because almost anything can be looked up now a days but I also didn't want to look like I was always on my phone. Just don't do it excessively. Also, they like to see that you are reading/learning about things that you are seeing on rotations. Sometimes I would have questions from readings or say, "I was reading about this last night and I was wondering why you would do this instead of this in this situation". It shows you are trying to learn. Also, don't try and ask questions when they are running around trying to do something. I know that sounds like common sense, but it seems like it might not be as common sense as you would think. Try and stay as out of the way as much as possible without seeming aloof.

-Be on time. Always. I was actually always kinda anxious about it and ended up being early most days, but that's better than being late.

-Don't hover when your preceptor is writing notes. I've noticed it tends to creep people out. Have a seat and look something up/help out the nurses, etc.

-There are certain things that different docs/programs like. Try and pick up on it and be proactive. I know that's vague but you will figure it out within the first few days of the rotation.

-You will have more time than your preceptor/resident to talk to patients. Get to know them. Listen to them. A lot of times they just want someone to talk to. I have had multiple patients after going in and doing my H&P tell my preceptor "She is going to be such a wonderful doctor" or "I hope she will come back and work here someday". Our evaluations from our school are very patient oriented so I have tended to do really well since I guess it has been really apparent how much I care. Multiple preceptors commented on how much the patients/nurses/staff have enjoyed having me, and I really just try and be nice to everyone.

-Don't try and be a know it all or question what your preceptor is doing. If you are confused as to why they are doing something, sometimes I will ask, "In school they taught us ____, it seems like almost everything is different in real life. When would you do ____ over ____"? I have had a hard time balancing the "not being a know it all option" with showing how much I know, and my evaluations tend to skew more towards the "she is great with people, needs to read more" comments when in fact unless they asked me a specific question, I may know the answer, I just don't speak up. I would try and be somewhere in the middle, but it is definitely a fine line.

-Don't be messy. Sometimes you can set up a little area to study in the nurses station, etc. But don't get up and leave books open/all over the place. It drives the nurses crazy.

-When they tell you to go home, go home. Don't hang around when there is nothing to do and watch the preceptor write notes. Same thing for if they tell you to go get lunch, etc. Sometimes they just want time away from you.

I'm sure there are more but that's a pretty good list right now.
 
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On a funnier note, a lot of the little stools in the offices are reaaaally slippery. If you don't put a hand on it to keep it in place when you try and sit, it will totally roll out from underneath you. I can't tell you how many times I made a fool of myself doing it. Little tip so you all are aware...haha
 
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I hope I am not annoying anyone by bumping my own thread, but I was thinking today that I would like to talk a little bit about osteopathic medicine/DO bias. I was talking to a friend a few weeks ago who was asking me if I regretted going to a DO school. Like many people, I was a borderline applicant due to an average (26 MCAT). I took it twice and got the same score, so I knew there wasn't a huge chance of a retake helping me much. I originally applied only to MD schools, and when I only got 2 interviews, I panicked and applied DO. I can't say that over the years I haven't thought twice about my decision. Like I said, I am grateful for my degree, and I am not ashamed to have DO instead of MD behind my name. However, I can't say that during the last few years I haven't wondered if things would be different at an allopathic school. It's hard to say, since I haven't experienced both, the answer to that question. But the answer to the question "would I go DO again" would be yes. I do have to say though, that DO bias exists. I haven't experienced going into the workforce yet so I can't comment on that, but I definitely have felt like I have had to "prove" myself more to my preceptors the last couple of years. My own dad was one of the old school MDs who had a hard time breaking himself of the habit of saying "DO school" and "real med school" (MD).

It's a common theme on SDN for people to say DO=MD and I think you really have to know in what context people are saying that. When I was applying I took it for there is really no difference at all in any way (aside from taking OMM), and I would have to say that isn't necessarily true. I think once you are out of residency that is absolutely true, but there is a lot that goes into getting to that point, and there are definitely obstacles getting there. People on here like to say that if you work harder you can do almost anything with a DO degree, but you don't realize how annoying and stressful it is to constantly have to be "better" than people that are supposed to be equal to you. It will always be on your mind and you will constantly be comparing. When you mess up, you will wonder if that will negatively impact not only your preceptor's impression of you, but of DOs in general. I have seen this happen. I have never heard a story of an MD student not doing well and therefore a preceptor refusing to take any more MD students, but I have seen it happen to DOs. Whether the tension is real or perceived, it is there, and it is hard to deal with.

I haven't had many patients ask me about it aside from them just being curious. I am always willing to have a conversation with them about what the difference is. I think that is the only way to really change the view of the nation as a whole about our profession, and I think it is important.

Don't be that person that is overly sensitive when people ask about it or when preceptors make negative/naive comments about your training or your degree. I know those people, and they are forever going to feel inferior in their career. It also looks bad when you react negatively to these comments...and the comments do happen.

Probably the most important part of medical school is the most variable in DO school. Pre-meds are all sorts of worried about the 1st and 2nd year curriculum, what the campus looks like, etc and rarely do they ask about the last 2 years. I think that's a mistake. I worked really hard to get a quality clinical education, but honestly, I don't think we should have to. It should be available to all medical students. Program directors tend to be wary of DO students because our clinical education varies so much. A lot of people "poo poo" that idea because we are supposedly "equal", but I think there are enough threads on SDN about poor clinical rotations at DO schools for people to see that PDs may think that for a reason, and rightly so. If I wanted to, I could have floated through all my core rotations working very little, reading very little, and learning very little. I could have taken time off whenever I wanted to. I didn't want my education to be like that so I worked hard to find electives and selectives at quality programs, but not all people do this. You should know that, and be honest with yourself. Are you just going to skate by and not be proactive about your education? If so, DO might not be the right route for you. On a similar note, having to set up ALL my own rotations and literally not having ANY contact with my school for help with anything 3rd and 4th year was really rough and not for the faint of heart.

Anyway, I just wanted to talk a little bit about it because there is definitely a pro DO vibe on SDN, that may or may not be completely truthful. My whole point with this thread is give you guys a really good idea of what you are getting into/answer any questions you might not be able to find on SDN (or find easily...I spent way too much time, and may still be spending way to much time here). Please don't be afraid to ask the "taboo" questions, because they really are important.

Edit: this is just comparing DO and USMD. I know nothing about carribbean anything and I would definitely advise DO over Carib MD from having rotated with many of their students.
 
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Obviously it depends on the students but honestly overall on interviews you can tell who are the DOs and who are the MDs. They are a bit more "professional" but also appear more tightly wound in general if that makes sense. The DO students tend to be the ones making conversation. But obviously I don't want to categorize them as a whole. I have met plenty of awesome MDs and plenty of weirdo DOs.
 
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Obviously it depends on the students but honestly overall on interviews you can tell who are the DOs and who are the MDs. They are a bit more "professional" but also appear more tightly wound in general if that makes sense. The DO students tend to be the ones making conversation. But obviously I don't want to categorize them as a whole. I have met plenty of awesome MDs and plenty of weirdo DOs.

That is a difference I have also seen between many MD and DO students though I will not make the full generalization that all MD students are "less personable" as I've met plenty.

How difficult was it to get quality clinical rotations? Did you basically set up rotating only at tertiary centers?
 
Basically I tried to do most of my rotations at places that had residency programs. It's not hard to do 4th year, but 3rd year is more difficult since those hospitals tend to have their own medical students that get first dibs. Basically you just have to call/email/go talk to lots of people and hope one decides to take you. Honestly the size of the hospital is less important than if they take med students regularly and have a medical education system in place. The ones with just preceptors are hit or miss because they are usually fairly far removed from what we have to know/what we should know at that point and often get annoyed having you tailing them around all day everyday. In my experience those rotations tend to end up being mostly shadowing which is definitely not what you want to be doing.
 
@MiaMia14-- Have you found a fair amount of males on the interview trail and or as residents/ attendings?

I know a couple of old time ob docs (male) but from random interwebz browsing it seems to be less and less common nowadays. Thoughts?
 
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@MiaMia14-- Have you found a fair amount of males on the interview trail and or as residents/ attendings?

I know a couple of old time ob docs (male) but from random interwebz browsing it seems to be less and less common nowadays. Thoughts?

Out of about 12-15 interviewees in a day, there are usually maybe 1-2 that are male. The trend seems to be similar in the programs themselves. It is obviously mostly female, but I wouldn't say men are phased out completely. I would never ever advise against someone following their passion and going for what they really want to do. However, I do think that male Ob/Gyns are going to have a harder and harder time. I have already heard that the men in a practice tend to have a harder time building a patient base, and now with all the women that didn't have a choice of female or male back in the day getting older, I think they are going to have an even harder time. It used to be that you just saw a male physician because there weren't that many females. They got used to it and are generally more accepting of the male Ob/Gyns. Now, the girls just starting to go are choosing women (I know I tend to chose a women when I am looking for a gynecologist) because it's just more comfortable. With those women having the choice (and generally choosing women) from the beginning, it's going to get harder for the men. This is just my opinion, but I have seen the guys on a lot of my rotations get denied access to patients rooms over and over again for being male. Some of our preceptors flat out decided they just wouldn't take male med students at all because they didn't want to make their patients uncomfortable by even asking. Again, just my opinion and observations.

I would say that a lot of the attendings (maybe half to 75%) are male. My guess is this is because the big surge of women are probably still working their way up the food chain so to speak.
 
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@MiaMia14

Firstly, I really appreciate you taking your time out to answer our lingering questions that we've all had.

Mine is that I'm aiming for a newer DO school (most likely be in the inaugural class I hope:unsure:) and my concern is rotations as well as the stigma of possibly being an inaugural class at a new DO school. How did you stay persistent and motivated during those years? I know you must have been tempted to be lax after numerous test weeks and late nights.

Also, this is one might seem stupid or petty but I'm going to ask anyways. All of my friends got into their choice MD and dental schools. I'm the only one who has to do an informal post bacc in hopes of redeeming myself to be competitive. I lowkey feel like a failure. Not in the sense that DO is inferior but because I know I had it in me to be in the same path as them. My question is how do I not get consumed by comparison and motivate myself to ace these post bacc classes?
 
Enlightening, thanks for posting! The more I read, the more it seems like going DO is a completely draining process in comparison. You take more classes, more tests, fight harder for EVERYTHING, only to end up being looked at inferiorly come residency time (or simply not even being looked at).

Good luck!
 
@MiaMia14

How hard is it actually just to "get by" in med school? I mean for example if someone just wanted to do FM or general internal medicine at a mediocre residency site, can the med school experience be more lax than the way you put in to be "work hard and fight for chance to prove yourself"?


Thank you in advance!
 
Enlightening, thanks for posting! The more I read, the more it seems like going DO is a completely draining process in comparison. You take more classes, more tests, fight harder for EVERYTHING, only to end up being looked at inferiorly come residency time (or simply not even being looked at).

Good luck!

I definitely don't want you to feel that way!! If you read up overall I said that in terms of being happy with my med school experience I would rate it a 7/10. It isn't all doom and gloom...but I did want to touch on a few things that were hard that are specific to DO school. I am absolutely positive that no matter what school you go to there are going to be people that complain about almost everything. No one is going to be 100% happy where they go. Honestly, in spite of the relative hard time it seems DOs might have, most everyone seems very happy and excited about medicine still, which is kind've a different tone than if you wander over into the allopathic students forum on here (although to be fair I have met plenty of happy MD students as well). It really is all relative. You have to look at it as an opportunity to become a doctor and you definitely have to believe the ends justify the means in terms of med school and residency (both MD and DO).
 
@MiaMia14

Firstly, I really appreciate you taking your time out to answer our lingering questions that we've all had.

Mine is that I'm aiming for a newer DO school (most likely be in the inaugural class I hope:unsure:) and my concern is rotations as well as the stigma of possibly being an inaugural class at a new DO school. How did you stay persistent and motivated during those years? I know you must have been tempted to be lax after numerous test weeks and late nights.

Also, this is one might seem stupid or petty but I'm going to ask anyways. All of my friends got into their choice MD and dental schools. I'm the only one who has to do an informal post bacc in hopes of redeeming myself to be competitive. I lowkey feel like a failure. Not in the sense that DO is inferior but because I know I had it in me to be in the same path as them. My question is how do I not get consumed by comparison and motivate myself to ace these post bacc classes?

I actually just got a PM from someone who may be in your class (is there only 1 completely new school opening this year?) asking me kind've similar questions, but more specific to boards and rotations. I went into a lot of detail because you guys won't have upperclassmen to ask about board study strategy or about resources for research different programs. It definitely won't help you out for first year, but hopefully it will be helpful for boards and rotations/residency auditions. I will PM it to you.

In terms of your rotations in general I don't think I can really help with that since I don't know (and likely your school doesn't know) where they will be at the moment. But my recommendation is this...no matter where you are you will get a good idea of what you "should" be learning on each rotation by buying a question bank and doing them throughout the year during your core rotations. You will most likely have an exam at the end of them (COMAT or Shelp exam depending on if they use the DO version or MD version, but either way it's the same material) so it will help you study for that as well. I bought UWORLD for step 2 for the year, and basically that was all I did to study for those exams. It was also how I gauged how my rotations were going. If I had talked about/learned/seen a lot of that on my rotations I felt like I was learning what I was supposed to learn. I honestly had to study very little for those end of rotation exams. It is also a leg up when it comes to step 2 study time because by the time I started "really" studying for it, I had finished all of UWORLD and was now going through my second pass. We didn't get ANY time at all off of rotations to study for step 2, so it helped a lot. If you find that you aren't doing/learning what you should be learning pick up a step 2 review book and go through it, or look through SDN and find what books people suggest for each specialty in terms of review. There are always ways to make a "bad" rotation useful. If it's bad and you have downtime, just make sure you study and learn what you should be learning.

Also, as much as it sucks not "doing" stuff, you can still learn by the conversation your preceptor has with patients, how they manage their problem, how they write their note, etc. I have gotten a lot of questions from 2nd years at my school trying to pick their rotation sites about "do the smaller places really let you do more?" thinking that is the most important part of rotations. Honestly, it sucks if you aren't given any responsibility...mostly because your body tends to get bored just watching, but residency programs are going to care very little if you have ever put in an art line, done a paracentesis, or how many intubations you have performed. They want to know you can be part of the team, you can learn fast, and you know your basic clinical medicine well enough to be integrated quickly after you learn how they do things there. Most places like you to do these things in a certain way anyway and if you have to know how to do it, they will teach you "their" way. I think the most important part of rotations is to a. figure out what specialty you could do forever b. learn how to do a good focused H&P based on any chief complaint and come up with a reasonable differential and plan and c. be able to present a patient to an attending giving them what them jusssst enough of what they want, but also having all the rest of the information ready if they ask (it's kind've an art). You learn these things by at some point rotating through a residency program...hopefully at least 1 during your third year so you are prepared for your audition rotations, but it doesn't even necessarily have to be 3rd year...I did 1 audition in July (the beginning of my 4th year) at a program I wasn't super excited about to get my feet wet for auditions and that's where I learned how to present a patient and where my notes got refined. It's a learning process as well and as long as they see improvement from the beginning of the month to the end they are pretty happy.

In regards to your other questions (sorry about the novel of a reply here), I can honestly not say that I didn't take advantage at all of our lax schedule. I was definitely working shorter hours for a lot of my third year (although there wasn't anything we could have stayed and done most times) than a lot of med students...and I did let my studying game get lax as well, but you just gotta let the stuff at the hospital inspire you and get excited by it and it will reenergize you to learn the information....and sometimes you also just gotta have friends that will drag you to Panera and make you study.

As for feeling like a failure. DON'T. I know that's easy to say. It is definitely not even a petty question. I sometimes do feel like I "settled" and I have even thought, "oh man, my friends that go to an MD school when they graduate they are going to be able to put on facebook that they are Dr. ____ MD, and I will probably just put something like OMG I am finally a doctor!!! or something like that because I don't want to have to explain the DO". It sounds horrible to say out loud but I would assume most DO students have thought about it or felt some form of it at one point or another. You just have to remember that no matter what you are going to be a doctor and it is a HUGE accomplishment. You get to heal people as a job and I am constantly reminded of that at the hospital. Don't feel bad for thinking it, but don't let it hinder your progress or your belittle your accomplishments. When you see your friends, get excited that if you ace your post bacc you will get to be having the same (horrendous, haha j/k) experience that they are having right now. You have to find the motivation within yourself....but seriously don't feel bad or like a failure because you had to take the longer road. Think of the most awesome, inspiring doctor you know...you have no idea what their road to being a physician was like. Just because they are awesome now, doesn't mean they didn't have to do a post bacc to get into med school, etc.

good luck!
 
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First, I would like to really thank you for taking the time out to do this. It's super helpful to get advice from someone who's been through this entire process and can reflect on everything. My question is if you got involved with any extra curriculars. Similarly, how much free time would you have on the average week? Thank you again!
 
@MiaMia14

How hard is it actually just to "get by" in med school? I mean for example if someone just wanted to do FM or general internal medicine at a mediocre residency site, can the med school experience be more lax than the way you put in to be "work hard and fight for chance to prove yourself"?


Thank you in advance!

Honestly the first 2 years it's hard to slack off and not fail out. And going in with the mentality will probably put you dangerously close to doing just that. Most people are not going to have a good idea of how much to study to "just pass". And especially having never studied for med school tests before the first few tests are always a big shock in terms of hours put in to reward. Once you figure it out, you could just skate by but I wouldn't recommend it. That would put you also dangerously close to failing boards which if you fail, you are going to have a very hard time matching into anything really.

I'm going to tell you the same cautionary tale about going to "middle tier FM or IM". First, I was 150% going for peds when I went to med school. That changed almost immediately upon doing my obgyn rotation. You really don't know what any job entails until you are basically doing it for a month (and even then your preceptors are doing more than what you are involved in). Having shadowed for a few days really doesn't tell you if you could do it forever and you reeeeally don't want to screw yourself out of doing what you might want (but might not want right now). Also, I have friends with very good clinical grades, fair board scores, etc that are still not getting an over abundance of interviews for FM and IM. Everything is getting more competitive with new schools opening up all over the place and it is only going to get worse.

I suppose once you get to clinicals you could not put in as much effort but I find it hard to understand someone not wanting To work hard for what they want, especially if what they want is to be taking care of peoples lives. And it would be very hard to overcome an eval comment that says "he was alright I guess but seemed disinterested and didn't put in any effort to learn". The good and bad comments get put in your deans letter and I can't really see a PD being sympathetic with a comment like that either. Honestly you will have plenty of free time if you are efficient (especially 3rd year). I would go in with the mentality that you want to do as good as possible for your future patients and you will still have plenty of time. Obviously you will find your own balance between what's important to you and what you need to do, but going in thinking "oh, I'm thinking of just gonna skate by and get into FM" is a dangerous mentality.
 
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First, I would like to really thank you for taking the time out to do this. It's super helpful to get advice from someone who's been through this entire process and can reflect on everything. My question is if you got involved with any extra curriculars. Similarly, how much free time would you have on the average week? Thank you again!

I did a few things the first 2 years...I was the Vice President of a club and all those things... But honestly I'm not sure they really matter. It's not like getting into med school where you have to check the boxes so to speak to get into school. Do something you feel like would be fun, but don't feel
obligated to do something. I went on a medical mission and it was one of my most influential experiences during med school but I have rarely been asked about it unless I bring it up. I would say if you are going to try and do something solely for your resume, try and get some research in. That would really be the only thing that CAN have an influence on your app (although not always...it really depends on what specialty you are going into and where you apply).
 
@MiaMia14 has made some great points here. As a fellow DO MS4 I'd like to make one point.

Step 1 of the USMLE can assuage any doubts people may have about the quality of the pre-clinical education at a DO school. After spending fourth year rotating at large academic medical centers, the question people have is what was the quality of your clinical education. Having exclusively preceptor based, outpatient rotations, is not going to cut it. The reason why some DO schools (CCOM comes to mind) have really great matches, is that their students are rotating in the same teaching hospitals as other MD schools in town.

You only know what you see. An internal medicine rotation in some random office is not going to teach you much and make you competitive. Herein lies the achilles heel of DO education, the clinical part.

My advice would be to go to a school that has very strong and established clinical rotations in an inpatient setting, with residents.
 
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@meliora27 : "My advice would be to go to a school that has very strong and established clinical rotations in an inpatient setting, with residents." How do we find this info out besides word of mouth??
 
@meliora27 : "My advice would be to go to a school that has very strong and established clinical rotations in an inpatient setting, with residents." How do we find this info out besides word of mouth??

I know my school had a list of our core rotation sites on our website. But all but 1 don't have residencies. I think most DO schools are going to be similar...which is why if you can't go to one of the DO schools known for rotations (and even if you are at those schools I bet not all of your rotations will be at residency programs) the most important thing is to apply for away rotations and try and set up rotations on your own. Be proactive about it. You may not get that experience 3rd year (or if you have a flexible 3rd year schedule like me you can) but do a practice away as early as possible 4th year and learn how to be a good resident. I would venture to say it isn't important to have SEEN everything by the time residency starts (that's what residency is for) but learning how to be a good resident that really counts.
 
Merry Christmas, @MiaMia14!

What made you choose your school? Also, is there something in particular that you wish you knew as a pre-med?
 
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