50% As'

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
That graph doesn't really look like a sharp increase. Maybe students at Brown are just trying harder.
 
Brown's GPA is becoming more useless by the year. No plus and minuses and 50% A's means it's difficult to distinguish top students from mediocre students. I'd rather be a 3.8 at Princeton than a 4.0 at Brown.
 
JoshUNCW said:
Maybe students at Brown are just trying harder.
Click to expand...

Hahahaha. Yeah. Right. Or they curve the piss out of all of their classes. 47% A's in physical science? That's not right.
 
thats all i need to hear..
im transferring to brown =)
 
I'd be pretty upset if I were a Brown Alum, way to make a degree like it's from an Online University. ! 👍
 
I had a girl in a summer class of mine that was from Brown. It all makes sense now.
 
that sucks for the students at brown that truly deserve As..
I was told graduate schools will regard your 4.0 less if your school gives out too many As (grade inflation). Not sure how true this is. But the professor I work for told me that he has to give out less than 20% As because they don't want grade inflation. But then again it might be different for prestigious schools such as Brown.
 
raginfly said:
that sucks for the students at brown that truly deserve As..
I was told graduate schools will regard your 4.0 less if your school gives out too many As (grade inflation). Not sure how true this is. But the professor I work for told me that he has to give out less than 20% As because they don't want grade inflation. But then again it might be different for prestigious schools such as Brown.
Click to expand...

oh come on.

isnt Alpert like 90% brownies?
 
merryjoulton said:
If half of the students at Brown are earning 90+% in their courses then I don't see the problem. If the number is high because of generous curves then that would be a problem. Does the article address this issue?
Click to expand...


"Another difference in comparing Brown to other universities is the lack of plus and minus grades. A 2001-2002 University study found that many faculty members felt Brown's grading system created pressure to give higher marks.
That study also found that 60 percent of faculty respondents - 109 out of 181 - "felt pressure to inflate grades." The survey identified student admission into graduate school, student evaluation of professors and student success at finding a job as contributing factors to that pressure."
-Seth Motel
 
To play devil's advocate for a moment...

I don't see a problem with every student in a given class getting an A, if they earned it. What does an A really mean? In my opinion, it means that the student has demonstrated mastery of the material in the course; a complete understanding. In my opinion, it doesn't in itself speak a word about the relationship of that student to anybody else in the class (as opposed to a standard bell curve).

So, if you were to tell me that 50% of students in a university get A's, then I would think that 50% of students in that university have demonstrated mastery in their classes, and that school's got some fantastic professors! (Or, those classes have a very limited scope... haha)

But, the question is if they actually earned it, and in reality, that does seem awfully suspicious. There are some topics out there where getting 20% of the students to master the topic is a sincere challenge with even the brightest of students, let alone 100%.

I'd love to see the results of a standardized subject-specific test given to "A" students at Brown and several comparable universities, to see if they all really know the material to the same degree.
 
These students would go to a state university and destroy most of the classes there.
 
Nomdeplume said:
To play devil's advocate for a moment...

I don't see a problem with every student in a given class getting an A, if they earned it. What does an A really mean? In my opinion, it means that the student has demonstrated mastery of the material in the course; a complete understanding. In my opinion, it doesn't in itself speak a word about the relationship of that student to anybody else in the class (as opposed to a standard bell curve).

So, if you were to tell me that 50% of students in a university get A's, then I would think that 50% of students in that university have demonstrated mastery in their classes, and that school's got some fantastic professors! (Or, those classes have a very limited scope... haha)

But, the question is if they actually earned it, and in reality, that does seem awfully suspicious. There are some topics out there where getting 20% of the students to master the topic is a sincere challenge with even the brightest of students, let alone 100%.

I'd love to see the results of a standardized subject-specific test given to "A" students at Brown and several comparable universities, to see if they all really know the material to the same degree.
Click to expand...

In my inorganic chemistry (upper level/graduate whatever you wanna call it), our midterm final average was a 17. I got a 19. The professor did not curve the exam.

Is it okay that everyone gets below 20s on their exams?
 
brooklynblunder said:
In my inorganic chemistry (upper level/graduate whatever you wanna call it), our midterm final average was a 17. I got a 19. The professor did not curve the exam.

Is it okay that everyone gets below 20s on their exams?
Click to expand...

What the heck was on that exam? What was the format?
 
brooklynblunder said:
In my inorganic chemistry (upper level/graduate whatever you wanna call it), our midterm final average was a 17. I got a 19. The professor did not curve the exam.

Is it okay that everyone gets below 20s on their exams?
Click to expand...


Holy crap... I'd definitely try to talk to somebody (just don't know who...) The lowest average for a class I've had on a test was in ochem and that was a 42.
 
brooklynblunder said:
In my inorganic chemistry (upper level/graduate whatever you wanna call it), our midterm final average was a 17. I got a 19. The professor did not curve the exam.

Is it okay that everyone gets below 20s on their exams?
Click to expand...

Well, I don't think that's ever okay. It sounds like there's been a failing on somebody's part (at that rate, I might assume it was the instructor's).

But yeah, you have my sympathy. That's rough.
 
littlealex said:
Brown's GPA is becoming more useless by the year. No plus and minuses and 50% A's means it's difficult to distinguish top students from mediocre students. I'd rather be a 3.8 at Princeton than a 4.0 at Brown.
Click to expand...

I think med schools would rather take the 4.0 from Brown though..
 
brooklynblunder said:
i got a 19 man i wouldn't be able to tell. it was a blue book though (yea he went no partial credit)
Click to expand...

There must have been some form of curve, because that means essentially everyone failed the class. That or the other exams had 90 averages to compensate. What was the A set at at the beginning and end of the semester.
 
Nomdeplume said:
To play devil's advocate for a moment...

I don't see a problem with every student in a given class getting an A, if they earned it. What does an A really mean? In my opinion, it means that the student has demonstrated mastery of the material in the course; a complete understanding. In my opinion, it doesn't in itself speak a word about the relationship of that student to anybody else in the class (as opposed to a standard bell curve).
Click to expand...

Nope. By definition that would be a "C." (Using the traditional view of a "C" as average -- it is the expected level of mastery to pass the course.)
A "B" would be something beyond expected mastery of a subject -- that is, complete mastery of the subject at hand PLUS some degree of achievement beyond simple mastery of the subject matter.
A "D" would be incomplete mastery of the subject area (below expectations). Whereas an "A" would represent outstanding or exemplary achievements beyond complete mastery of the subject matter and an "F" would indicate a failure to complete the majority of expectations in the course.

So, if you were to tell me that 50% of students in a university get A's, then I would think that 50% of students in that university have demonstrated mastery in their classes, and that school's got some fantastic professors! (Or, those classes have a very limited scope... haha)
Click to expand...
Or the professors felt back giving lower grades, which happens far more than you might expect.

But, the question is if they actually earned it, and in reality, that does seem awfully suspicious. There are some topics out there where getting 20% of the students to master the topic is a sincere challenge with even the brightest of students, let alone 100%.

I'd love to see the results of a standardized subject-specific test given to "A" students at Brown and several comparable universities, to see if they all really know the material to the same degree.
Click to expand...
I do agree with this. It is highly unlikely that the majority of those students receiving As should have even achieved at the appropriate level to receive a "B," much less an "A."

The problem I see with such criterion-based grading is that the criteria are generally quite arbitrary. Grades are much more useful when they are normed. Knowing a B means the student is in the top 25% of his class for a given course tells you a heck of a lot more than does "B=achievement beyond expected level of mastery of course material" -- what is this accepted level? It's arbitrary. There is no such thing as "complete mastery" of Gen Bio, for example. Instead, there are various degrees of knowledge about biology. If you take a CLEP exam for a freshmen level course this becomes blatantly obvious. For most tests, the passing level (equivalent to a C) is around 50/100. An A is typically equated with a score of ~70/100. That is NOT "complete mastery." It is, instead, a case of a C being the requisite knowledge needed to move onto another course in the field. You will learn it better later on. An "A" ought to show that you have a much greater level of understanding than would be required to simply pass the course.
 
bannie22 said:
These students would go to a state university and destroy most of the classes there.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure about this.

1) State schools have more students, which in turn usually makes the curve more of a challenge.

2) There is less one on one help at state schools (see number one).

3) Private schools have more of a tendency to inflate grades, for whatever reason.
 
chman said:
I'm not so sure about this.

1) State schools have more students, which in turn usually makes the curve more of a challenge.

2) There is less one on one help at state schools (see number one).

3) Private schools have more of a tendency to inflate grades, for whatever reason.
Click to expand...

It's also noteworthy that students are being compared to others who graduated from their UG institution. A 3.5 at school A might be equivalent to a 3.6 at school B but that doesn't mean school A ought to change its grading scale. You are graded against your peers. A student from an Ivy-League school is evaluated as such. For anyone reviewing an app from them it makes sense to have a large disparity between applicants from taht school not to have all Brown students (for example) have 3.7-4.0 GPAs.

OTOH, I do agree with you that state schools do offer courses are par w/ the big-name schools in many cases....
 
the students who go to Brown have an SAT of 2200.
the students who go to state schools, i dont know? 1500s?
 
apumic said:
Nope. By definition that would be a "C." (Using the traditional view of a "C" as average -- it is the expected level of mastery to pass the course.)
A "B" would be something beyond expected mastery of a subject -- that is, complete mastery of the subject at hand PLUS some degree of achievement beyond simple mastery of the subject matter.
A "D" would be incomplete mastery of the subject area (below expectations). Whereas an "A" would represent outstanding or exemplary achievements beyond complete mastery of the subject matter and an "F" would indicate a failure to complete the majority of expectations in the course.
Click to expand...

I probably should have been more specific here, but I think we're just disagreeing over semantics. When I used the term mastery, I intended it to mean a level of understanding to some significant degree beyond what the professor would deem satisfactory (which the professor might designate as a C).

I think I agree with you in the final point, though. There's a level of inconsistency with respect to how in-depth courses get, how much detail is involved, etc. So, "mastery" of a course at institution X does not necessarily translate to "mastery" of an analogous course at institution Y

(For example, perhaps a bio course at institution X examined understanding of the Krebs cycle to the extent of knowing what its end product is, whereas an analogous course at institution Y examined it to the extend of knowing each individual step).
 
bannie22 said:
the students who go to Brown have an SAT of 2200.
the students who go to state schools, i dont know? 1500s?
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on the state school too. For example, the University of Washington and Washington State University are very different as far as average GPA's and what not for entering students.

Further, there is probably a larger disparity at state schools. For example, there could very well be students with 2200 and 1500 SAT scores in the same classroom.

All I was saying is that I think it is an oversimplification to assume that all students at Brown would do well at any state school.
 
mmmcdowe said:
There must have been some form of curve, because that means essentially everyone failed the class. That or the other exams had 90 averages to compensate. What was the A set at at the beginning and end of the semester.
Click to expand...

he dropped the test after people complained 🙂
 
I had a 1500 on my SAT's and I went to state school (out of 1600, that's right, I'm old)
Most people go to state school for financial reasons, I know I did...
 
bannie22 said:
the students who go to Brown have an SAT of 2200.
the students who go to state schools, i dont know? 1500s?
Click to expand...

Since when does SAT correlate to college performance? That's like saying someone who did well on the MCAT will be an amazing doctor.
 
Diggidy said:
Since when does SAT correlate to college performance? That's like saying someone who did well on the MCAT will be an amazing doctor.
Click to expand...

i might be wrong, but wasn't the SAT created to predict high schoolers performance as college freshmen?
 
I don't know about you guys but I don't think SAT is everything. I had an SAT over 2200 and I'm in classes (state univ) with some kids who are getting really good grades here that aren't even in the honors college.

Brown is known for its grade inflation and the academic climate, or so I've heard, is more chill (compared to its other Ivy counterparts) instead of cutthroat. For a while Brown was my first choice in high school, but then when I visited it was underwhelming. Though that 50% As report makes it look pretty good now. 😛
 
Diggidy said:
Since when does SAT correlate to college performance? That's like saying someone who did well on the MCAT will be an amazing doctor.
Click to expand...

Oh YES. someone who does well on the MCAT will be an amazingly technically competent doctor.

there is no causation, but there is strong correlation.

🙄
 
curbye said:
i might be wrong, but wasn't the SAT created to predict high schoolers performance as college freshmen?
Click to expand...
👍👍👍


Why do the SAT if the SAT predicts nothing? :laugh:
Why do the MCAT if the MCAT predicts nothing? :laugh:

WHY TAKE ANY CLASSES IF GPA PREDICTS NOTHING?
Just play computer games and apply to med school with your 15 of your RPG game characters, WOW, Diablo, etc...
 
bannie22 said:
Oh YES. someone who does well on the MCAT will be an amazingly technically competent doctor.

there is no causation, but there is strong correlation.

🙄
Click to expand...

okay sorry i shouldn't have used the word prediction...i meant by my statement of 'SAT score predicts freshman performance' that due to the correlation of high sat to high first year gpa people then apply the parameters of one sample of a pop to another sample.


and i did not say anything about the mcat?

i also can't tell if you're making fun of me, which makes me kind of :-/
i wasn't trying to say anything about my own views on the SAT or MCAT or GPA, just that i thought it was originally used to predict performance. someone said something to the effect that they had no bearing on performance...which is why i made my statement.
 
schrizto said:
I don't know about you guys but I don't think SAT is everything. I had an SAT over 2200 and I'm in classes (state univ) with some kids who are getting really good grades here that aren't even in the honors college.

Brown is known for its grade inflation and the academic climate, or so I've heard, is more chill (compared to its other Ivy counterparts) instead of cutthroat. For a while Brown was my first choice in high school, but then when I visited it was underwhelming. Though that 50% As report makes it look pretty good now. 😛
Click to expand...

I was actually talking w/ a professor about this today. A lot of students actually do do poorly in coursework for lack of what most of us would consider common knowledge. For example, apparently it is fairly common for students to get questions wrong due to a lack of basic vocabulary (for example, not knowing what an "industrialized nation" is or that the words "conduct" and "transport" are synonyms). While I generally would agree that a high SAT does not necessarily correspond to success in college, those who have extremely limited backgrounds and knowledge bases to rely upon are unlikely to succeed in college. At the same time, a 1000/1500 is not the end of the world. It indicates average intelligence. AFAIK most of those students do fine in college-level coursework.
 
apumic said:
I was actually talking w/ a professor about this today. A lot of students actually do do poorly in coursework for lack of what most of us would consider common knowledge. For example, apparently it is fairly common for students to get questions wrong due to a lack of basic vocabulary (for example, not knowing what an "industrialized nation" is or that the words "conduct" and "transport" are synonyms). While I generally would agree that a high SAT does not necessarily correspond to success in college, those who have extremely limited backgrounds and knowledge bases to rely upon are unlikely to succeed in college. At the same time, a 1000/1500 is not the end of the world. It indicates average intelligence. AFAIK most of those students do fine in college-level coursework.
Click to expand...

Is it these "common knowledge" words, that separate a B student for an A student?
 
Techmed07 said:
Is it these "common knowledge" words, that separate a B student for an A student?
Click to expand...

Those two words? No. The common knowledge they represent? It appears to be a large factor. We haven't conducted an experiment, although maybe I will discuss that with her...

Basically, what became clear was that B students often work much harder than those of who consistently get As. They may put in as much as 5 to 10x the amount of time studying that I and other A students do. Upon talking to these students, they obviously "know" their stuff but simply cannot synthesize or apply it. It is as though their minds were giant whiteboards upon which information is written but never processed. Instead of synthesizing the information and understanding it, some of these students seem to simply memorize the information verbatim. It is also noteworthy that these same students, when taking notes, appear to miss the key points (get stuck in the details). It is as though they are missing the necessary foundation for effective academic learning.

This does kind of fit some of the student success research I did as a UG....
 
My sis goes to Brown and you can choose which class you want to be displayed as Pass/Fail and which have a grade on them.

TBH I would choose all the class i KNOW i'm not that strong at to be P/F

And the ones I ace A/B/C etc format.
 
It's up to a professor to determine what is satisfactory for his class. Yeah it sucks when you've got a hard ass and other professors seem more lenient but that's college. Also, Brown kids are exactly average students. Most of the students did extremely well and it's likely that they would be capable of performing at an A level at most schools they attend.
 
SamyRamadan said:
My sis goes to Brown and you can choose which class you want to be displayed as Pass/Fail and which have a grade on them.

TBH I would choose all the class i KNOW i'm not that strong at to be P/F

And the ones I ace A/B/C etc format.
Click to expand...

What the ****!

Are you ****ing serious?

That's so ****ing unfair.

I have a 3.5 GPA now because I got B's on two classes. If I change to the P/F system for only these two classes, both of them would be P.

My GPA would be 4.0 if I were at Brown. 🙁
 
tennisball80 said:
What the ****!

Are you ****ing serious?

That's so ****ing unfair.
Click to expand...

"Brown University is an American university located in Providence, Rhode Island. It is one of the most liberal members of the Ivy League, with pervasive pass-fail grading and the unlimited ability to drop a class without penalty at almost any time during the course. The school featured a student prostitution ring in the 1980s and a Title IX lawsuit in the 1990s."

However, please note that if you are applying to med school, all those prereqs have to be letter grade format. But **** you suck at like philosophy don't 😛
 
tennisball80 said:
What the ****!

Are you ****ing serious?

That's so ****ing unfair.

I have a 3.5 GPA now because I got B's on two classes. If I change to the P/F system for only these two classes, both of them would be P.

My GPA would be 4.0 if I were at Brown. 🙁
Click to expand...

It's not as glorious as it seems. If your transcript is littered with P's in your prereqs, you bet adcoms will question that
 
A P is not a 4.0, it doesn't help or lower your grade.

Although yeah a C in english is worse than a P in english.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
Using multiple As for scholarship
Replies
1
Views
297
wysdoc
wysdoc
F
Planning as an international premed
Replies
4
Views
819
freefromssc
F
E
Sports Betting as a Hobby?
Replies
5
Views
953
LunaOri
LunaOri
kirvoyant
Would this count as volunteering?
Replies
7
Views
882
LizzyM
LizzyM
T
EMT as clinical experience
Replies
2
Views
1K
LindaAccepted
LindaAccepted
Top