85% preclinical average to pass COMLEX?

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FBurnaby

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Our class had a presentation on boards and one stat that jumped out was that the class average for pre-clinical grades was 85% for those passing COMLEX and 78% for those that failed it. Is this typical or an anomaly? I'm an OMS1, and its pretty worrying that I could get low 80s in all my classes and still be at risk for failing comlex. Thoughts or experiences?
 
Our class had a presentation on boards and one stat that jumped out was that the class average for pre-clinical grades was 85% for those passing COMLEX and 78% for those that failed it. Is this typical or an anomaly? I'm an OMS1, and its pretty worrying that I could get low 80s in all my classes and still be at risk for failing comlex. Thoughts or experiences?

93% of ppl passed COMLEX-1 this year. That should tell you a lot about where you stand off the bat tbh. If you study you'll pass it.
 
@Drrrrrr. Celty Isn't that 93% excluding those who didn't make the COMSAE cut? I get that a big component of the boards is outside class, but I'm trying to get a frame of what performance in MS1&2 translates to scoring well (or not so well)
 
@Drrrrrr. Celty Isn't that 93% excluding those who didn't make the COMSAE cut? I get that a big component of the boards is outside class, but I'm trying to get a frame of what performance in MS1&2 translates to scoring well (or not so well)

Those people get held back to study more. No one kicks you out if you don't score a 450 on your COMSAE. We're not Carib schools.

And none of it does. What translates is when you start practicing and how many questions you do before you take it.
 
Our class had a presentation on boards and one stat that jumped out was that the class average for pre-clinical grades was 85% for those passing COMLEX and 78% for those that failed it. Is this typical or an anomaly? I'm an OMS1, and its pretty worrying that I could get low 80s in all my classes and still be at risk for failing comlex. Thoughts or experiences?

Some schools prepare you for the COMLEX better than others. Our class so far has only had 2-3 people fail first attempt.

The course grades are curved up to 85% and the average Level 1 is around 550 at my school.
 
Some schools prepare you for the COMLEX better than others. Our class so far has only had 2-3 people fail first attempt.

The course grades are curved up to 85% and the average Level 1 is around 550 at my school.

Can you imagine if we needed a 78% to pass COMLEX at our school? lol
 
Our class had a presentation on boards and one stat that jumped out was that the class average for pre-clinical grades was 85% for those passing COMLEX and 78% for those that failed it. Is this typical or an anomaly? I'm an OMS1, and its pretty worrying that I could get low 80s in all my classes and still be at risk for failing comlex. Thoughts or experiences?
As someone who had a preclinical average in the low 80's and towards the bottom of the class, I can tell you that getting low 80s in most or even all of your preclinical coursework does not mean that you are destined to fail COMLEX. Just be disciplined about your studying and you can pass just fine even as a below-average student.
 
Think about what the data does and doesn't show. Of course people who failed COMLEX have lower grades, in average. That doesn't actually speak to the percentage of people in either group who pass or fail. I bet that's a smaller gap.



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Our class generally had an 82% average on most exams and a 99+% pass rate as far as I know... so this is possible but seems like a stretch. Totally depends on how your school grades though.
 
The truth is that schools have no idea what it takes to pass or do well on boards. They try to pretend it is all their curriculum when at my school that is the one thing making it harder to do well on boards. What you do need to do is prepare early. By that I mean start doing a Q-Bank around October of M2 and stick to a few resources that work for you. In my opinion, the best are UWorld, USMLE-Rx, Pathoma, Picmonic, SketchyMedical and FA. Some people add DIT and some other things into it, but I think that's too much.
 
The truth is that schools have no idea what it takes to pass or do well on boards. They try to pretend it is all their curriculum when at my school that is the one thing making it harder to do well on boards. What you do need to do is prepare early. By that I mean start doing a Q-Bank around October of M2 and stick to a few resources that work for you. In my opinion, the best are UWorld, USMLE-Rx, Pathoma, Picmonic, SketchyMedical and FA. Some people add DIT and some other things into it, but I think that's too much.

Medical school curriculum are disorganized as hell, but that's going to happen when you try to shove in 5 year's worth of material into 4.
 
Medical school curriculum are disorganized as hell, but that's going to happen when you try to shove in 5 year's worth of material into 4.
5 years? Are you kidding? I'm jealous of my friend 1.5 years pre-clinical curriculum. In fact, his school performs so well on the USMLE (~245) and their students are saying the curriculum play a major role on it. Further, 2 years of clinical + 6 months of electives give them so much freedom to do whatever they want in term of getting multiple publications and prepare for residency apps. If anything, DO schools can learn to cut back and follow this type of curriculum.
 
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5 years? Are you kidding? I'm jealous of my friend 1.5 years pre-clinical curriculum. In fact, his school performs so well on the USMLE (~245) and their students are saying the curriculum play a major roles on it. Further, 2 years of clinical + 6 months of electives give them so much freedom to do whatever they want in term of getting multiple publications and prepare for residency apps. If anything, DO schools can learn to cut back and follow this type of curriculum.

I actually agree. I believe that most DO medical schools shove in 5 years of discrete material into their curriculum. Our school spends so much time trying to prepare us for residency during preclinicals that it's absolutely obnoxious and ends up being obstructive to our studies.
 
5 years? Are you kidding? I'm jealous of my friend 1.5 years pre-clinical curriculum. In fact, his school performs so well on the USMLE (~245) and their students are saying the curriculum play a major roles on it. Further, 2 years of clinical + 6 months of electives give them so much freedom to do whatever they want in term of getting multiple publications and prepare for residency apps. If anything, DO schools can learn to cut back and follow this type of curriculum.

Discontinuing our wizardry classes would be a great place to start.
 
Discontinuing our wizardry classes would be a great place to start.

I think limiting it to first year and GME would be the best option frankly. I enjoyed OS first year a good deal. Second year it has mainly been a source of stress and confusion as I have little time to actually study or review most of the material effectively.
 
5 years? Are you kidding? I'm jealous of my friend 1.5 years pre-clinical curriculum. In fact, his school performs so well on the USMLE (~245) and their students are saying the curriculum play a major roles on it. Further, 2 years of clinical + 6 months of electives give them so much freedom to do whatever they want in term of getting multiple publications and prepare for residency apps. If anything, DO schools can learn to cut back and follow this type of curriculum.
Faculty is generally too stupid to understand very basic concepts and instead push things with idiotic idealism. At my school, they don't tell professors what to teach and what is important at all. They just give them resources like Kaplan, NBOME and other stuff to use as reference for what to teach. They then allow them to write the questions they want in the way they want. On top of that, they pile on garbage that's not board relevant because somehow PhDs think they know what is important when treating patients.

Medical school curriculum needs to be driven toward the boards because that's the standard created to have competency. We already have huge amounts of knowledge that are impossible to master, which is referenced by the fact that nobody can hit a 300 on the USMLE. You can teach me drug X, Y an Z, but I promise you that if its not board relevant I will forget it the week after the test. Either way, in the real world we'll all be doctors and there will be new drugs coming out all the time, so it's not like if you didn't hear it in your preclinical you will never know about them.
 
5 years? Are you kidding? I'm jealous of my friend 1.5 years pre-clinical curriculum. In fact, his school performs so well on the USMLE (~245) and their students are saying the curriculum play a major roles on it. Further, 2 years of clinical + 6 months of electives give them so much freedom to do whatever they want in term of getting multiple publications and prepare for residency apps. If anything, DO schools can learn to cut back and follow this type of curriculum.

What's their average GPA/MCAT?
 
You could be one of my students....those numbers are close to what I see for my school! Although I'd fudge and say it's more like if you're 80% and over, you'll be fine.

The most trouble comes from people in the 70-75% range. For those with 75-59%, it's a tossup.

We have > 15 years of data showing that your pre-clinical grades mirror your COMLEX score, and pass rates.

Our class had a presentation on boards and one stat that jumped out was that the class average for pre-clinical grades was 85% for those passing COMLEX and 78% for those that failed it. Is this typical or an anomaly? I'm an OMS1, and its pretty worrying that I could get low 80s in all my classes and still be at risk for failing comlex. Thoughts or experiences?
 
85% may be a bit of a stretch.

You should think though that a person who gets lower grades likely doesn't study as much, and will mirror that effort in their boards study. Not only that, the people who study the hardest the first time around (ie, get good grades) will have to study less to re-learn the material, and will pick up new details that those who did not study as well the first time probably won't.

I'm currently entertained by the people who are always making excuses as to why they don't study saying "boards are what really matters." Yeah like you'll magically find the motivation that STUDYING TO BECOME A DOCTOR didn't provide you just because its boards, give me a break.
 
You could be one of my students....those numbers are close to what I see for my school! Although I'd fudge and say it's more like if you're 80% and over, you'll be fine.

The most trouble comes from people in the 70-75% range. For those with 75-59%, it's a tossup.

We have > 15 years of data showing that your pre-clinical grades mirror your COMLEX score, and pass rates.

If that's the range where students fail then why not increase the cutoff to pass?

I personally think the bar is set too low at many DO institutions including the one I attend.
 
If that's the range where students fail then why not increase the cutoff to pass?

I personally think the bar is set too low at many DO institutions including the one I attend.

I think raising the pass rate at our school to an 80% would easily eliminate about 40% of our class.

Furthermore in our curriculum I don't think we legitimately have any time to breathe let alone study for boards. Bringing up the requirement to pass to 80% would be a great way for all of us to barely pass boards....
 
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This is something I have been advocating for years!

Personally I've been above that in all of my classes, but I think it'd be a great way to take my malignant stress level and require it be medicated....
 
If that's the range where students fail then why not increase the cutoff to pass?

I personally think the bar is set too low at many DO institutions including the one I attend.

I'm against it without other changes to go with it. I would have failed OPP.
 
Sounds arbitrary when comparing school to school. For example, the average in my class is usually somewhere between 77%-83%. That means half my class would fail the COMLEX, which just doesn't happen. It might be true for your school though.
 
I think raising the pass rate at our school to an 80% would easily eliminate about 40% of our class.

Furthermore in our curriculum I don't think we legitimately have any time to breathe let alone study for boards. Bringing up the requirement to pass to 80% would be a great way for all of us to barely pass boards....

That might not actually be a bad thing. There is no reason to have the bar set so low.

When you get to 3rd and 4th year you will see these residents who were probably in the bottom 40% of the class make mistakes that a 4th year MD student would have caught easily.
 
That might not actually be a bad thing. There is no reason to have the bar set so low.

When you get to 3rd and 4th year you will see these residents who were probably in the bottom 40% of the class make mistakes that a 4th year MD student would have caught easily.

Aside from likely mildly obliviousness to your likely rationalized failings in knowledge at times lets talk about the more reasonable aspects of why it's ok to not know everything. Medicine is a group effort and there's no way everyone will know everything. I remember something well and you remember something well, thus we can work through things best. This not to also talk about intrinsic vanity too. Mind you that in your class 80% took and passed the USMLE. Are you so willing to say that half of that 40% is subpar?
 
Sounds arbitrary when comparing school to school. For example, the average in my class is usually somewhere between 77%-83%. That means half my class would fail the COMLEX, which just doesn't happen. It might be true for your school though.

Yeah, I think this varies too much between schools. Our average on block exams was almost always around 82%-83%, with the majority of the class getting Bs, around a dozen each As and Cs, and a handful of Fs. If you raised the cut-off for passing a LOT of people would have ended up remediating-- but last I heard our class had a 99% COMLEX pass rate, and of the 2/3 or so of the class who took USMLE everyone passed. (These are not the official end numbers, because I don't know those. If it eventually comes out that our pass rate wasn't quite that high, don't come after me)

My school makes students with a <3.0 GPA attend some review lectures at the end of spring second semester, and <2.5 GPA students or anyone who fails something second year is considered at higher risk for failing and has to delay boards a few weeks for extra study time. I'm not sure what wizard math actually generated those numbers, but they seem like they're working, but obviously they're only internally validated since grade distributions would vary by school.

Edit: I reworded a sentence and forgot to fix the grammar
 
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Yeah, I think this varies too much between schools. Our average on block exams was almost always around 82%-83%, with the majority of the class getting Bs, around a dozen each As and Cs, and a handful of Fs. If you raised the cut-off for passing a LOT of people would have ended up remediating-- but last I heard our class had a 99% COMLEX pass rate, and of the 2/3 or so of the class who took USMLE everyone passed. (These are not the official end numbers, because I don't know those. If it eventually comes out that our pass rate wasn't quite that high, don't come after me)

My school makes students with a <3.0 GPA attend some review lectures at the end of spring second semester, and <2.5 GPA students or anyone who fails something second year is designated considered at higher risk for failing and has to delay boards a few weeks for extra study time. I'm not sure what wizard math actually generated those numbers, but they seem like they're working, but obviously they're only internally validated since grade distributions would vary by school.

I don't think an average student has much risk of failing comlex or usmle pending they study well.
 
Our COMSAE cut off is 450, how does this compare to other med schools? Still figuring out how to interpret COMLEX scores.
 
85% may be a bit of a stretch.

You should think though that a person who gets lower grades likely doesn't study as much, and will mirror that effort in their boards study. Not only that, the people who study the hardest the first time around (ie, get good grades) will have to study less to re-learn the material, and will pick up new details that those who did not study as well the first time probably won't.

I'm currently entertained by the people who are always making excuses as to why they don't study saying "boards are what really matters." Yeah like you'll magically find the motivation that STUDYING TO BECOME A DOCTOR didn't provide you just because its boards, give me a break.
This is not always true. There are multiple reasons why stuff happens. During pre-clinical I got lower grades than most of my class. I wasn't being lazy. I spent most of my time learning what was in FA and pathoma to supplement holes in our lectures. I also avoided spending too much time on stuff that was not board relevant that our school pushed. In our class, the person ranked 197 overall ended up with one of the top 10 COMLEX scores.
 
That might not actually be a bad thing. There is no reason to have the bar set so low.

When you get to 3rd and 4th year you will see these residents who were probably in the bottom 40% of the class make mistakes that a 4th year MD student would have caught easily.
How do you know that these people were in the bottom 40% of their class? Or is this something you're just assuming because they are making mistakes?
 
Maybe they're not insecure and realize they'll be doctors either way
Depends. If asked by a colleague, sure whatever. I can't imagine a 3rd year coming up to you as a resident and asking your class rank. If you're not asked and actively say how you did poorly, that's not a thing about being "secure." That's just idiocy to go around saying it. It's also something that regardless of being "secure" or "insecure" that you shouldn't share with patients. Everyone wants their doctor to be AOA 300, and telling patients you were at the bottom serves no net value and instead just hurts your relationship with them.
 
Depends. If asked by a colleague, sure whatever. I can't imagine a 3rd year coming up to you as a resident and asking your class rank. If you're not asked and actively say how you did poorly, that's not a thing about being "secure." That's just idiocy to go around saying it. It's also something that regardless of being "secure" or "insecure" that you shouldn't share with patients. Everyone wants their doctor to be AOA 300, and telling patients you were at the bottom serves no net value and instead just hurts your relationship with them.
Did you just try justifying your ridiculous point by making up an imaginary scenario where you have to explain to your patients your class rank in medical school? How did you even get into medical school with that thought process?
 
That might not actually be a bad thing. There is no reason to have the bar set so low.

When you get to 3rd and 4th year you will see these residents who were probably in the bottom 40% of the class make mistakes that a 4th year MD student would have caught easily.

Curious about this. How many would pass your curriculum if the class wasn't curved to an 85%?
 
Did you just try justifying your ridiculous point by making up an imaginary scenario where you have to explain to your patients your class rank in medical school? How did you even get into medical school with that thought process?
No, I explained to you why sharing class rank is not a black or white scenario and used both how it works with your peers and patients. Maybe thinking beyond fixed answer choices isn't your strength.
 
I've been told to go through FA and pathoma thoroughly and to do lots of questions, and start doing questions as early as possible sept/oct and keep reviewing material after each block in your courses. i think if you put in the time and effort it will show in your score
 
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