925 DO grads unmatched this year. Stop school expansion?

[Dr.Bruh]

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I agree. It seems like the only logical conclusion

It literally is not the logical conclusion tho. It ignores essentially every data trend and is based almost totally off anecdotes on forums. How do you come to the conclusion that desirable specialties will be out of reach for DOs. The trend is literally the reverse. Less DOs on average every year entire PCP specialties and more going into things like gas, EM, PMR, Rads etc. you can argue hyper competitive specialties like derm and NS will be harder bc of the merger and list AOA spots. But the MD programs that accept DO are going to continue to accept DO. The trend is that MD programs have become more DO friendly over time not the opposite. The idea that MD programs are gunna stop taking DOs now that DOs have 30% voting power (likely to increase in the future)on the ACGME board is illogical.

 

[Dr. Death]

It literally is not the logical conclusion tho. It ignores essentially every data trend and is based almost totally off anecdotes on forums. How do you come to the conclusion that desirable specialties will be out of reach for DOs. The trend is literally the reverse. Less DOs on average every year entire PCP specialties and more going into things like gas, EM, PMR, Rads etc. you can argue hyper competitive specialties like derm and NS will be harder bc of the merger and list AOA spots. But the MD programs that accept DO are going to continue to accept DO. The trend is that MD programs have become more DO friendly over time not the opposite. The idea that MD programs are gunna stop taking DOs now that DOs have 30% voting power (likely to increase in the future)on the ACGME board is illogical.

I agree. The merger and rapid school expansion is going to hurt the bottom feeders, the low COMLEX, board failures, repeat years, annoying/lazy on clinicals. The rockstars who are scoring 240+ on step 1, have research, work hard and are likable on clinicals, those people will continue to match competitive and hypercompetitive specialties.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I agree. The merger and rapid school expansion is going to hurt the bottom feeders, the low COMLEX, board failures, repeat years, annoying/lazy on clinicals. The rockstars who are scoring 240+ on step 1, have research, work hard and are likable on clinicals, those people will continue to match competitive and hypercompetitive specialties.

I tried to ignore this post, but just couldn't.

Something about implying that anyone who repeated a year or has a low score is a bottom feeder just doesn't sit right with me. Cause none of you are 'bottom feeders' right? I mean that's how you went DO, cause your all awesome, right? Also this assumption that 240+ and its all good cause your awesome and must be a harder worker etc is just not true. Then why do people with 240's fail to match this year? Why are 4th years at my school getting put into their backup specialty in FM with upper 230's and 240's. Its not everyone, but its much more than expected. I think there is so much assumption in that post that is reflective of a broader mindset that is just not true.

Just cause you work hard and do well on boards doesn't guarantee anything. And whats with the narcissistic attitude that is so prevalent? Why is it so common to think that everyone who didn't match did something wrong, and it won't effect me. Even tho you guys will be competing against a 1000 more DO's in 2 years (2021), or 2000 more in 3 (2022) years or who even knows how many more in 4 years (MS0's), I see so many are going around spouting that nothing will change and DO's will keep matching better and better on average. That isn't possible, you can't add more people to the match and continue to have better outcomes for everyone. People need to have some cognizance of their situation.

 

[zero0]

I tried to ignore this post, but just couldn't.

Something about implying that anyone who repeated a year or has a low score a bottom feeder just doesn't sit right with me. Cause none of you are 'bottom feeders' right? I mean that's how you went DO, cause your all awesome, right? Also this assumption that 240+ and its all good cause your awesome and must be a harder worker etc is just not true. Then why do people with 240's fail to match this year? Why are 4th years at my school getting put into their backup specialty in FM with upper 230's and 240's. Its not everyone, but its much more than expected. I think there is so much assumption in that post that is reflective of a broader mindset that is just not true.

Just cause you work hard and do well on boards doesn't guarantee anything. And whats with the narcissistic attitude that is so prevalent? Why is it so common to think that everyone who didn't match did something wrong, and it won't effect me. Even tho you guys will be competing against a 1000 more DO's in 2 years (2021), or 2000 more in 3 (2022) years or who even knows how many more in 4 years (MS0's), I see so many are going around spouting that nothing will change and DO's will keep matching better and better on average. That isn't possible, you can't add more people to the match and continue to have better outcomes for everyone. People need to have some cognizance of their situation.

Not only is DO trending down but IMG is actually trending up, contrary to what some predicted. I'm a realist and the picture going forward looks bleak. At this rate, DO will likely become the degree of primary care, with only top performers earning spots at bottom tier residencies in moderately competitive specialties. As always, there will be unicorns, but no one should go into debt, sign away their life to the bone wizard cult, and go into medical school thinking they will be one.

The writing is on the wall for the AOA. No one is going to be paying an extra couple thousand a year to maintain certification they don't need to practice. They're making one last cash grab before they go kaput and they're taking the entire DO degree with them.

 

[Sardonix]

I tried to ignore this post, but just couldn't.

...

Just cause you work hard and do well on boards doesn't guarantee anything. And whats with the narcissistic attitude that is so prevalent? Why is it so common to think that everyone who didn't match did something wrong, and it won't effect me. Even tho you guys will be competing against a 1000 more DO's in 2 years (2021), or 2000 more in 3 (2022) years or who even knows how many more in 4 years (MS0's), I see so many are going around spouting that nothing will change and DO's will keep matching better and better on average. That isn't possible, you can't add more people to the match and continue to have better outcomes for everyone. People need to have some cognizance of their situation.

Cuz this is SDN and half this place is occupied by neckbeards. Me included, depending if I shave or how much of an antisocial ponce I wanna be day-to-day.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Not only is DO trending down but IMG is actually trending up, contrary to what some predicted. I'm a realist and the picture going forward looks bleak. At this rate, DO will likely become the degree of primary care, with only top performers earning spots at bottom tier residencies in moderately competitive specialties. As always, there will be unicorns, but no one should go into debt, sign away their life to the bone wizard cult, and go into medical school thinking they will be one.

The writing is on the wall for the AOA. No one is going to be paying an extra couple thousand a year to maintain certification they don't need to practice. They're making one last cash grab before they go kaput and they're taking the entire DO degree with them.

Are you taking crazy pills or just intentionally being dishonest? DO match is the highest it’s ever been in the acgme match this year. It went up by a larger margin than IMG and with 2300 more DOs in the match compared to 2 years ago. IMG app numbers have stayed stagnant with less increase in match rate than DOs. Last year was the first time in the acgme that of the top 5 matched specialties 2 were non pc (EM and Gas). A record number of DO have entered those field in the last year. Get out of here with your BS

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Not only is DO trending down but IMG is actually trending up, contrary to what some predicted. I'm a realist and the picture going forward looks bleak. At this rate, DO will likely become the degree of primary care, with only top performers earning spots at bottom tier residencies in moderately competitive specialties. As always, there will be unicorns, but no one should go into debt, sign away their life to the bone wizard cult, and go into medical school thinking they will be one.

The writing is on the wall for the AOA. No one is going to be paying an extra couple thousand a year to maintain certification they don't need to practice. They're making one last cash grab before they go kaput and they're taking the entire DO degree with them.

Not true at all. Go look at the match data again.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

All of you guys are assuming a lot of things, and most of you are imagining the worst. Be optimistic for once!!! We did improve in the match this year after all despite the low expectations. I bet you next year we'll match 87-90% at the very least. A lot could happen in the next few years, and nothing says it's gonna be for the worst. With many DO schools opening, this could mean that many of the same people that were going to the Caribbean schools and succeed, could probably now end up in a DO school in the US and do the same thing. This could also mean that more mediocre students are going to the Caribs, which in turns may results in a decrease of the match rate of IMGs over time due to more red flags. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and predict that after the merger, only superstar IMGs will be able to match with average stat IMGs struggling to get spots in the SOAP (US IMGs might have better luck than non US ones). I am class of 2022 in one of the newer DO schools, and when a program director from a very IMG friendly program associated with the only MD school in the state visited my school he told us, he would much rather accept DO students from our school than IMG students, and feel strongly that our DO training would be more competitive than that of an IMG. Also, like mention before, the AOA owns 30% of the voting rights on the ACGME boards, and I doubt that was for nothing. Nothing says that we won't see an increase in residency funding from the government in the next few years either, though highly unlikely, but this issue has been brought up to them almost every year, and nothing says they won't change their mind eventually.

 

[deleted950463]

DO match rate will drop when the AOA match is eliminated because then all those COMLEX only noncompetitive people will have to use acgme match

 

[deleted951662]

Just to clarify, my comment was mostly regarding aoa board certification coming to an end.

 

[2021Doctor]

Okay so I found a post where I actually predicted what I thought the losses would be based on previous years finally:
Whoot! Whoot! Total Enrollment 28981, Number of Schools Up

So I predicted 6716, but there were actually 6876 grads per hallowmanns post,* so using my old projections I would predict that of the 160 extra students beyond what I predicted, that about 36 (22%) of them didn't place. Meaning I am projecting that 239 won't place, or that only 96.5% will place based on the drop from the last couple of years. So I am actually predicting below 97%.

I do see the irony that I predicted that 'some school' would drop below 95% placement by 2022, when it actually happened last year. I bet you never knew I was an optimist?
*Net gain of 1600 positions in former AOA programs during merger transition. Discuss..

Thank you for all of that number crunching. I will be curious to see if you are correct.

 

[Dr. Death]

I tried to ignore this post, but just couldn't.

Something about implying that anyone who repeated a year or has a low score is a bottom feeder just doesn't sit right with me. Cause none of you are 'bottom feeders' right? Right. I mean that's how you went DO, cause your all awesome, right? Right. Also this assumption that 240+ and its all good cause your awesome and must be a harder worker etc is just not true. True. Then why do people with 240's fail to match this year? They applied poorly and/or were unlikable and/or got unlucky Why are 4th years at my school getting put into their backup specialty in FM with upper 230's and 240's. See above Its not everyone, but its much more than expected. I think there is so much assumption in that post that is reflective of a broader mindset that is just not true.

Just cause you work hard and do well on boards doesn't guarantee anything. True And whats with the narcissistic attitude that is so prevalent? Why is it so common to think that everyone who didn't match did something wrong, Because when 86 of 100 people match, most likely the 14 people had a red flag, interviewed poorly, outkicked their coverage, etc. and it won't effect me. Even tho you guys will be competing against a 1000 more DO's in 2 years (2021), or 2000 more in 3 (2022) years or who even knows how many more in 4 years (MS0's), I see so many are going around spouting that nothing will change and DO's will keep matching better and better on average. That isn't possible, you can't add more people to the match and continue to have better outcomes for everyone. People need to have some cognizance of their situation.

See comments. Strong students will continue to match well, the number of DO students failing to match has nothing to do with how the top 10-15% match.

 

[Goro]

DO match rate will drop when the AOA match is eliminated because then all those COMLEX only noncompetitive people will have to use acgme match

And they will match into former AOA programs and less desirable community hospital programs in Primary Care in more rural areas or smaller cities. As mentions above, the students with the reddest flags will be hurt, not the general pool.

I still don't know if it's a reporting bias, or an observer bias, but it seems based upon matched of the past few years that the Lotto winners are becoming more common. My own school sent a bolus of kids into a field that was previous thought untouchable for DOs. Still awaiting to hear which particular programs so as to determine if they are "good" or not. But so far, based upon the opinions of our wise SDN residents and attendings (who are the ones to ask in the fields), the ones who matched into other DO unfriendly specialties or programs all matched into good ones.

Oh, I agree 100% with your thread title; the expansion has to stop. The only thing that will save the profession is if school develop thier own residencies. The candle in the dark is that some schools (including mine) as starting to do that. I do worry about the weakest schools opening more branches, which saturates an already weak clinical rotation pool. Hearing that the Dean of WCU is now on COCA fills me with dread, and sadness for WCU grads.

What to do? Use match numbers to show your Deans why expansion is bad. Hammer AOA and COCA reps whenever they show up at your school. Encourage your younger DO faculty (but not the True Believers) to get involved with the decision making process of the AOA. Agitate...agitate...agitate!

 

[allantois]

 

[Robotfishbrain]

One thing that has to be monitored closely in the next few years is the rate of IMG match and DO match. As more and more DOs are told to take the USLME, I have a feeling the match rates for DOs will go higher and IMGs will be pushed out. Perhaps this is already happening with more and more of the "competitive" matches being seen over the last couple of years. Perhaps the push to take the USLME is already having an effect.

This is pure speculation (as is everything in this thread) but next year will be the first gauge at what's to come for the rest of us. Outside of that I would take anything you read on SDN with a grain of salt as it's all just a guessing game.

 

[Goro]

One thing that has to be monitored closely in the next few years is the rate of IMG match and DO match. As more and more DOs are told to take the USLME, I have a feeling the match rates for DOs will go higher and IMGs will be pushed out. Perhaps this is already happening with more and more of the "competitive" matches being seen over the last couple of years. Perhaps the push to take the USLME is already having an effect.

.

This is pretty much what we've predicted

 

[calvinhobbes]

I tried to ignore this post, but just couldn't.

Something about implying that anyone who repeated a year or has a low score is a bottom feeder just doesn't sit right with me. Cause none of you are 'bottom feeders' right? I mean that's how you went DO, cause your all awesome, right? Also this assumption that 240+ and its all good cause your awesome and must be a harder worker etc is just not true. Then why do people with 240's fail to match this year? Why are 4th years at my school getting put into their backup specialty in FM with upper 230's and 240's. Its not everyone, but its much more than expected. I think there is so much assumption in that post that is reflective of a broader mindset that is just not true.

Just cause you work hard and do well on boards doesn't guarantee anything. And whats with the narcissistic attitude that is so prevalent? Why is it so common to think that everyone who didn't match did something wrong, and it won't effect me. Even tho you guys will be competing against a 1000 more DO's in 2 years (2021), or 2000 more in 3 (2022) years or who even knows how many more in 4 years (MS0's), I see so many are going around spouting that nothing will change and DO's will keep matching better and better on average. That isn't possible, you can't add more people to the match and continue to have better outcomes for everyone. People need to have some cognizance of their situation.

Excellent points.
For example in one NY program in particular, a previously DO-only FM program, that has now become an MD-match only program, matched many more IMGs this year. Unfair to the DOs who went to the nearby-DO medical school, wanted to stay close to home and match at their "local" "DO-friendly" FM program, only to find themselves without a match there, because that program decided not to do AOA this year and did ACGME match, and then ranked IMGs. It's just...unjust, I suppose. Even for FM, it's going to be harder for DOs to match to a "popular" program, even if that program used to DO-only. Everyone *has* to apply broadly in 2020 match and rank every interview they go on, it's a must going forward.

 

[calvinhobbes]

Just to clarify, my comment was mostly regarding aoa board certification coming to an end.

AOA boards aren't going anywhere. They legally can't disappear. Many docs in all specialties took AOA-only boards and today, can't just re-certify with the MD-board equivalent, thus AOA boards will continue, to maintain licensure, etc...even if less and less people take them in the near future. But changes are coming:

AOA board certification will soon include two pathways - The DO

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Excellent points.
For example in one NY program in particular, a previously DO-only FM program, that has now become an MD-match only program, matched many more IMGs this year. Unfair to the DOs who went to the nearby-DO medical school, wanted to stay close to home and match at their "local" "DO-friendly" FM program, only to find themselves without a match there, because that program decided not to do AOA this year and did ACGME match, and then ranked IMGs. It's just...unjust, I suppose. Even for FM, it's going to be harder for DOs to match to a "popular" program, even if that program used to DO-only. Everyone *has* to apply broadly in 2020 match and rank every interview they go on, it's a must going forward.

If this former DO program took a bunch of IMGs it’s bc DOs weren’t applying or ranking this program. Not bc they favored IMG MDs over DOs.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

One thing that has to be monitored closely in the next few years is the rate of IMG match and DO match. As more and more DOs are told to take the USLME, I have a feeling the match rates for DOs will go higher and IMGs will be pushed out. Perhaps this is already happening with more and more of the "competitive" matches being seen over the last couple of years. Perhaps the push to take the USLME is already having an effect.

This is pure speculation (as is everything in this thread) but next year will be the first gauge at what's to come for the rest of us. Outside of that I would take anything you read on SDN with a grain of salt as it's all just a guessing game.

Agreed. It's about to hit the ground for IMGs/FMGs from next year.

 

[calvinhobbes]

If this former DO program took a bunch of IMGs it’s bc DOs weren’t applying or ranking this program. Not bc they favored IMG MDs over DOs.

I thought the same thing, but thats not the case-- it's bc the PD was being "encouraged" by the health system to rank MDs, which would also explain why the program was forced to pull out of the AOA match this year. The PD is a DO but was essentially told "its an MD program now, rank MDs." Sucks but its true (as the graduating residents there tell me).

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I thought the same thing, but thats not the case-- it's bc the PD was being "encouraged" by the health system to rank MDs, which would also explain why the program was forced to pull out of the AOA match this year. The PD is a DO but was essentially told "its an MD program now, rank MDs." Sucks but its true (as the graduating residents there tell me).

There is a definite problem in NY with residencies being favorable to IMG's over DO's. However, I will not absolve a DO PD of any blame just because he was 'encouraged' to rank IMGs over DO's. He should have told that admin 'I will rank whoever I think fits my program best.'

 

[Angus Avagadro]

If this former DO program took a bunch of IMGs it’s bc DOs weren’t applying or ranking this program. Not bc they favored IMG MDs over DOs.

Not always. I know a couple programs with IMG PDs who wont take DOs, only IMGs. One didn't fill 3 DO spots during the match and they are a Level 1 trauma center
Dont know if they filled after the scramble.

 

[libertyyne]

Agreed. It's about to hit the ground for IMGs/FMGs from next year.

The reality as is always is way more complex than that. The bottom of the pool in terms of competitiveness is going to get squeezed. Be that FMG,IMG,DO, or US-MD.

I am surprised no one has talked about this, but part of the increase in matching ACGME is the increase AOA to ACGME transitions.

 

[calvinhobbes]

Right. Hopefully the best applicant wins in the end, but either way fact is: those DO spots are now going to IMGs.

Google and take a look at this year’s match list for SGU for example. Many of the previous AOA DO spots in programs like EM, FM, Peds, IM went to their students. There are even programs with the name “osteopathic” in them, and they matched an SGU student (obviously no way of knowing if some were SOAP/scramble, but not those EM spots!) I’m *sure* those students are wonderful people, will make amazing doctors, deserved to matched, etc. (I work with plenty of incredible IMGs), so I’m just stating a mere fact here: the competition is real now, because those DO spots are now up for grabs for anybody, with no real preference for DOs anymore.

This could also mean that DOs are probably matching at better MD programs and thus those old AOA-only spots were ranked lower by DO students this year in the MD match. Or, the programs wanted an MD over a DO, or wanted the “best applicant” — who knows, each program’s PD has a different mindset.

But again, the reality is that the DO profession kind of turned on itself with this merger. To go to an osteopathic medical school, and then to earn a DO degree with OMM skills, only then to potentially lose a spot in residency (a residency that used to be AOA and now may not even do osteopathic recognition) to an IMG (an IMG that may have once said “I’ll never go DO, rather go MD carib) is frankly sad. It just sucks, is the reality. Things change , life’s not fair, etc I get it, but by the looks of it, this merger does not truly benefit DOs.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I thought the same thing, but thats not the case-- it's bc the PD was being "encouraged" by the health system to rank MDs, which would also explain why the program was forced to pull out of the AOA match this year. The PD is a DO but was essentially told "its an MD program now, rank MDs." Sucks but its true (as the graduating residents there tell me).

Well it certainly isn’t a thing that’s permit

Right. Hopefully the best applicant wins in the end, but either way fact is: those DO spots are now going to IMGs.

Google and take a look at this year’s match list for SGU for example. Many of the previous AOA DO spots in programs like EM, FM, Peds, IM went to their students. There are even programs with the name “osteopathic” in them, and they matched an SGU student (obviously no way of knowing if some were SOAP/scramble, but not those EM spots!) I’m *sure* those students are wonderful people, will make amazing doctors, deserved to matched, etc. (I work with plenty of incredible IMGs), so I’m just stating a mere fact here: the competition is real now, because those DO spots are now up for grabs for anybody, with no real preference for DOs anymore.

This could also mean that DOs are probably matching at better MD programs and thus those old AOA-only spots were ranked lower by DO students this year in the MD match. Or, the programs wanted an MD over a DO, or wanted the “best applicant” — who knows, each program’s PD has a different mindset.

But again, the reality is that the DO profession kind of turned on itself with this merger. To go to an osteopathic medical school, and then to earn a DO degree with OMM skills, only then to potentially lose a spot in residency (a residency that used to be AOA and now may not even do osteopathic recognition) to an IMG (an IMG that may have once said “I’ll never go DO, rather go MD carib) is frankly sad. It just sucks, is the reality. Things change , life’s not fair, etc I get it, but by the looks of it, this merger does not truly benefit DOs.

every EM program that went infilled bit were we’re former AOA programs. We will have to see the final match rate but most likely DO we’re matching more historical acgme programs at least for EM. A massive number of AOA programs go unfilled every year and many transitioned to the merger so it’s no surprise they are filling with Caribs. DO we’re never going for those spots in the first place.

 

[calvinhobbes]

Well it certainly isn’t a thing that’s permit

every EM program that went infilled bit were we’re former AOA programs. We will have to see the final match rate but most likely DO we’re matching more historical acgme programs at least for EM. A massive number of AOA programs go unfilled every year and many transitioned to the merger so it’s no surprise they are filling with Caribs. DO we’re never going for those spots in the first place.

Hmm good point, didn’t realize some EM was unfilled for AOA match this year, that would explain a whole lot, thanks. ... unless, it went unfilled on purpose (PD left an open spot for an MD for the Nrmp match).

 

[zero0]

Are you taking crazy pills or just intentionally being dishonest? DO match is the highest it’s ever been in the acgme match this year. It went up by a larger margin than IMG and with 2300 more DOs in the match compared to 2 years ago. IMG app numbers have stayed stagnant with less increase in match rate than DOs. Last year was the first time in the acgme that of the top 5 matched specialties 2 were non pc (EM and Gas). A record number of DO have entered those field in the last year. Get out of here with your BS

I'm not talking about match rate specifically, just general trends. What ultimately interests me is placement and how that'll be affected as the AOA pumps out more and more DOs each year. We won't have a good idea of what the future holds until there is truly no AOA match anymore. It's really pretty simple, more students competing for spots can't end well. IMGs aren't going away, MDs aren't going away, so who is?

My guess is DO schools will no longer be a slam dunk like in the past. Most people entering will become doctors, but I don't think it'll be 99% placement like it used to be.

 

[Solodyn]

AOA boards aren't going anywhere. They legally can't disappear. Many docs in all specialties took AOA-only boards and today, can't just re-certify with the MD-board equivalent, thus AOA boards will continue, to maintain licensure, etc...even if less and less people take them in the near future. But changes are coming:

AOA board certification will soon include two pathways - The DO

If most of the graduates choose ABMS Board over AOA Board for primary certification, it is likely that there won't be enough people taking the AOA board to make it economically feasibly nor the test be psychometrically valid; there simply won't be enough test taker. AOA Boards will eventually become a recertification only board.

This scenario is extensively discussed within the the osteopathic dermatology specialty college and the threat is real. We are seeing all (100%) of our DO Derm Graduates coming out of the newly minted ACGME residencies choosing to take only the ABMS board.

 

[deleted951662]

If most of the graduates choose ABMS Board over AOA Board for primary certification, it is likely that there won't be enough people taking the AOA board to make it economically feasibly nor the test be psychometrically valid; there simply won't be enough test taker. AOA Boards will eventually become a recertification only board.

This scenario is extensively discussed within the the osteopathic dermatology specialty college and the threat is real. We are seeing all (100%) of our DO Derm Graduates coming out of the newly minted ACGME residencies choosing to take only the ABMS board.

My FM residency program was previously dualy accredited historically would have 50% graduates obtaining aoa certification. I’m my current 3rd year class there are 0. Current faculty who are dual boarded have decided to not recertify aoa.

 

[Robotfishbrain]

Not always. I know a couple programs with IMG PDs who wont take DOs, only IMGs. One didn't fill 3 DO spots during the match and they are a Level 1 trauma center
Dont know if they filled after the scramble.

The more I look into programs like these, the more I find there is a COMLEX bias, not a DO bias. I have first-hand knowledge of this in places that are traditionally not "DO-Friendly" in the state of Ohio. For example, the University of Cincy is notoriously anti-OUHCOM, but the highest number of interviews were given to OUHCOM 4th years this year. The fourth year class came to talk to our class during an optional lecture on residencies and they informed us that students who scored 500-550 on the COMLEX received interviews at UC over people who scored 600-650 because they took the USLME.

Not saying this is a fact across the board, but this is something to keep in mind when looking at resident lists on websites.

 

[EmilKraepelin55]

So basically this thread boils down to the same old dollar store advice told time and again: crush the boards, get stellar LOR’s, dazzle on clinicals, perform research, find the cure for cancer, pull a gnome from your a**. Then you are all set to match FM because DO’s are plebs. Thanks for that bit of inspiration.
The match numbers speak for themselves. It could certainly be worse than it is right now. No prediction is for sure, and frankly this topic is really just beating a dead horse at this point. Just do everything you can to build a good app so you have the best chance of matching. It’s always been that way, and it will stay that way. Yes, DO school proliferation needs to stop. I get it. There aren’t enough residency spots to fill for everyone. But I have been reading about this merger apocalypse specifically for years, and now it’s upon us. And we have matched ACGME better than we ever have. Do you apocalyptic crystal ball gazers just want the world to burn? Because it seems like your behaving similarly to all those who predict the world will end. “It will end May 21rst. Sorry, I was wrong. It’s actually December 21rst.”

 

[WorldChanger36]

I'm talking about overall slots.

EDIT: NRMP has ~35000 slots? and 5% of these did not fill.

But add to that add whatever AOA slots are still left, and Mil Match. There are about ~8000 DO grads now and some 21000 US seniors, so, by my reckoning, still more slots exists for DO and MD grads than there are bodies to fill them.

I apologize if my numbers are wrong.

I'll also wager that WCU and maybe two other schools contributed the most to those who went unmatched.

WCU did pretty damn good this year. We had a total of 14 unmatched ( some of them from last years class doing a 5th year or those that were un match last year an graduated) and most of them were able to grab positions in SOAP and a few others got TRIs ( including myself) and prelim- surgeries so everybody is at least going to be taking a step forward this year for sure. Maybe not a big of a step but a step none the less. I think we will get 100% placement this year.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

WCU did pretty damn good this year. We had a total of 14 unmatched ( some of them from last years class doing a 5th year or those that were un match last year an graduated) and most of them were able to grab positions in SOAP and a few others got TRIs ( including myself) and prelim- surgeries so everybody is at least going to be taking a step forward this year for sure. Maybe not a big of a step but a step none the less. I think we will get 100% placement this year.

14 going unmatched still is pretty bad. KCU Doesn’t have near that many not match with a class size of 250. But if they all were able to SOAP that’s good but having that many student get out through that is rough

 

[DrStephenStrange]

WCU did pretty damn good this year. We had a total of 14 unmatched ( some of them from last years class doing a 5th year or those that were un match last year an graduated) and most of them were able to grab positions in SOAP and a few others got TRIs ( including myself) and prelim- surgeries so everybody is at least going to be taking a step forward this year for sure. Maybe not a big of a step but a step none the less. I think we will get 100% placement this year.

That's encouraging news for WCU.
Edit: If we ignore the attrition rate.

 

[Sardonix]

So basically this thread boils down to the same old dollar store advice told time and again: crush the boards, get stellar LOR’s, dazzle on clinicals, perform research, find the cure for cancer, pull a gnome from your a**. Then you are all set to match FM because DO’s are plebs. Thanks for that bit of inspiration.
The match numbers speak for themselves. It could certainly be worse than it is right now. No prediction is for sure, and frankly this topic is really just beating a dead horse at this point. Just do everything you can to build a good app so you have the best chance of matching. It’s always been that way, and it will stay that way. Yes, DO school proliferation needs to stop. I get it. There aren’t enough residency spots to fill for everyone. But I have been reading about this merger apocalypse specifically for years, and now it’s upon us. And we have matched ACGME better than we ever have. Do you apocalyptic crystal ball gazers just want the world to burn? Because it seems like your behaving similarly to all those who predict the world will end. “It will end May 21rst. Sorry, I was wrong. It’s actually December 21rst.”

Say it again, for those in the back.

 

[WorldChanger36]

14 going unmatched still is pretty bad. KCU Doesn’t have near that many not match with a class size of 250. But if they all were able to SOAP that’s good but having that many student get out through that is rough

Last year almost half the class did not match, this year we are hitting 80%+. We had some awesome matches ( neurosurg, derm and ortho). Its a big deal so close to the merger.

 

[feeling-dizzy]

I’m confused. As of today, there is still 13 AOA post match spots available; many are IM. If anyone went unmatched in SOAP; at least they would find positions, right?

 

[libertyyne]

I’m confused. As of today, there is still 13 AOA post match spots available; many are IM. If anyone went unmatched in SOAP; at least they would find positions, right?

so 925-13. Where are the other 900 positions going to come from ?

 

[WorldChanger36]

I’m confused. As of today, there is still 13 AOA post match spots available; many are IM. If anyone went unmatched in SOAP; at least they would find positions, right?

No not really. Just because you see a “spot” on the Aoa site does not mean it is really available. Aoa post match is slow to update and sometime those residencies may have never intended to fill all the spots. Its a strange messed up game some programs play.

 

[QueenJames]

WOW.

 

[AlteredScale]

14 going unmatched still is pretty bad. KCU Doesn’t have near that many not match with a class size of 250. But if they all were able to SOAP that’s good but having that many student get out through that is rough

Maybe you have heard something else, but in the AOA match alone, KCU had 17 go unmatched. I am unaware how many went unmatched through NRMP.

2019 Summary by College

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Maybe you have heard something else, but in the AOA match alone, KCU had 17 go unmatched. I am unaware how many went unmatched through NRMP.

2019 Summary by College

The Data from the dean included total unmatched from all combined matches. Since he said 10 raw unmatched I’m assuming many of the AOA unmatched dual applied and matched and/or placed in the acgme match. This isn’t unsual to assume given that a lot of DO applicants will “Hail Mary” apply and rank competitive specialties in the DO match just bc they can while still being in the acgme match (usually applying a less competitive specialty) if it doesn’t work out.

 

[longerlongerlongerdrop]

The more I look into programs like these, the more I find there is a COMLEX bias, not a DO bias. I have first-hand knowledge of this in places that are traditionally not "DO-Friendly" in the state of Ohio. For example, the University of Cincy is notoriously anti-OUHCOM, but the highest number of interviews were given to OUHCOM 4th years this year. The fourth year class came to talk to our class during an optional lecture on residencies and they informed us that students who scored 500-550 on the COMLEX received interviews at UC over people who scored 600-650 because they took the USLME.

Not saying this is a fact across the board, but this is something to keep in mind when looking at resident lists on websites.

I know an Ohio PD well who always takes DO students each year and he told me he couldn't even ball park what an average COMLEX score is so I definitely think you are on the money with this.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

i know multiple people who didnt match aoa that matched acgme. so it counts towards the 17 even though they actually matched overall.

I know of one.

 

[BlueBleck]

My guess is DO schools will no longer be a slam dunk like in the past. Most people entering will become doctors, but I don't think it'll be 99% placement like it used to be.

Really not seeing that as a travesty of any sort to be completely honest. the lowest tier of californian public undergrad colleges aren't pushing out medstudents/researchers/bankers at even half of the rate that the UCs are. That's okay. so long as they're still able to broadly fulfill the niche that they're in, that's fine. Even a little bit of research should reveal that you're disadvantaged for competitive ACGME residencies coming out of a DO school. Students should walk into class day 1 knowing that. When we subsequently don't match ROAD, that's not really even an insult. There are a lot of students in my class who are absolutely okay with FM. That's the mentality you should have if you take the DO acceptance. Shoot for the more competitive specialties if you so desire, but it really isn't a big deal that a large portion of the class goes FM/IM in my opinion.

I always bring it back to the cal state/ UC example because I think it is so illustrative. To be sure, the cal states definitely don't pump out as many elite members of society as the UCs. There are definitely more kids who flunk out of college at the cal state level than the UC level as well. The relative lower outcomes is evident. In some cases, it's due to the lower prestige. In other cases it's due to the lower research profile. In others, it's the peer issue (e.g. kids at calstates aren't as well connected, and therefore as valuable networking opportunities as kids at UCLA, on average). But they're still excellent institutions of higher learning. And they are objectively some of the best unis in the US when we consider the value they add to their students. They have a niche. What they lack in prestige is balanced by the expanded opportunity they provide to otherwise qualified, though lesser (on paper), candidates.

Many of us are walking examples of benefitting from an expansion of DO slots. We're all likely better off at a DO school than at a carib. And many wouldn't be med students whatsoever if DOs didn't expand when they did, as the MD side has been exceptionally, and possibly overly, stagnant.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Also, with the merger and the eventual elimination of Comlex, DO students will be taking the USMLE with the same students who scored 515 on the MCAT. These are elite students and good test takers. So it stands to reason that to compete with this group a DO student will have to be very organized and disciplined during pre clinical years to score 245+ on USMLE.

 

[Goro]

Also, with the merger and the eventual elimination of Comlex, DO students will be taking the USMLE with the same students who scored 515 on the MCAT. These are elite students and good test takers. So it stands to reason that to compete with this group a DO student will have to be very organized and disciplined during pre clinical years to score 245+ on USMLE.

Sadly, NBOME will fight tooth and nail to prevent the red from happening. I just hope to live long enough to see COMLEX go the way of the dodo.

 

[Stagg737]

Not only is DO trending down but IMG is actually trending up, contrary to what some predicted. I'm a realist and the picture going forward looks bleak. At this rate, DO will likely become the degree of primary care, with only top performers earning spots at bottom tier residencies in moderately competitive specialties. As always, there will be unicorns, but no one should go into debt, sign away their life to the bone wizard cult, and go into medical school thinking they will be one.

The writing is on the wall for the AOA. No one is going to be paying an extra couple thousand a year to maintain certification they don't need to practice. They're making one last cash grab before they go kaput and they're taking the entire DO degree with them.

One year of IMG improvement is not a trend, especially after numerous years of things getting worse. I think IMGs/FMGs prospects will be largely unchanged with a slight net change to positive or negative, but we won't be able to discern actual trends for another 3-4 years.

My guess is DO schools will no longer be a slam dunk like in the past.

DO was never a slam dunk for specialties or truly weak students who don't shotgun their application or apply to mostly undesirable programs. Anyone who thought this is either ignorant or delusional.

If all you care about is matching, then it's still not a problem. This year there were 30,232 PGY-1 positions available and 29,040 total matches. Meaning there were 1,192 positions available for SOAP and I can guarantee plenty that didn't fill (which people can try and call around about after SOAP). If all you care about is being a doctor, you can almost certainly do it unless you're red flags are so bad that all programs would literally rather not fill their position than take you. In which case one should re-evaluate whether they should actually enter the profession.

 

[hallowmann]

...Many of us are walking examples of benefitting from an expansion of DO slots. We're all likely better off at a DO school than at a carib. And many wouldn't be med students whatsoever if DOs didn't expand when they did, as the MD side has been exceptionally, and possibly overly, stagnant.

Regarding the bolded, in absolute number of spots, MD schools have expanded almost as many as DO schools in the last 15 yrs. That's the reason there used to be 15k US MD grads, and now there are 21k.