a dying breed?

Started by deleted163319
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deleted163319

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i have been reading the thread about prescription priviliges for psychologists and i have to tell ya that i am kind've concerned. it seems to me like psychologists are doin this so that they are no longer left in limbo between the meds providing psychiatrists and the cheaper LCSW's and LPC's. the problem with this, in my opinion, is that instead of being the high-end therapists they are now, they are going to become the low-end psychiatrists of tomorrow, charging less per session and trying to corner the market in both therapy and medications. i dont see this working, what do you think? do you think clinical psychologists are gonna be pushed into becoming the cheaper version of psychiatrists with more and more people going to LCSW's and LPC's? or do you think this is going to be the psychologists big turn-around revitalizing the field?
 
I am not sure what a psychiatrist does-- do they also council or just listen to the symptoms, read reports and medicate, "Ok, you have more symptoms so we need to increase this and lower your dosage of this. You have gained weight so let's increase your dosage."

It's scary that everything in our society is going to the lowest bidder. I remember seeing this with midwives back in the eighties. OBs caused midwives to gain a foothold on the pregnancy market with how they practiced.

I am afraid that MDs are becoming the CEOS and everyone else is working under them. It will be harder in the future to actually work with the doctors as they just oversee things and make sure that all the i's are dotted and t's crossed and their minds swim with paper and not patients. Will psychologists work under an MD or a psychiatrist?

Many years ago it was suggested with one of my children that she had an anxiety disorder. A medical doctor who worked next door to a psychologist and consulted with him suggested Ritalin. I said no as I'd seen it cause other people problems. A few months later an ER doctor was getting ready to retrain to go to allergy medicine and I took her in when she started getting panicky and short of breath. He asked where she'd been. Well, she'd been in the barn. He asked if there was a history of hay fever in my family or her fathers. There was in her dad's but he wasn't around. He said, "She is allergic to something. This is a hay fever attack." He explained how the body responds to an allergy and how she was getting panicky as her breathing shut down. I took her to an allergist and the problem was resolved. I worry that psychologists will assume too much without looking in to other areas. Do psychiatrists look for other problems related to behavioral issues like diabetes? I know of few psychologists who even suggest a physical for behavioral issues and hope their scope will broaden if they start dispensing medications.
 
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Pekoe - couple quick points.
1) Psychiatrists ARE MDs.
2)You may have seen the worst doctor in history.
A)Ritalin is NOT for anxiety. In fact, it often increases anxiety.
B)To confuse a panic attack with what sounds like an asthma attack is....just terrible. A high school kid should know the difference. The situation you described is more a reason to take RxP AWAY from that MD than a reason not to give them to the psychologist🙂


The premise is not to just "Give RxP to psychologists. Its to give them 2 additional years of training FIRST, then give them RxP. Makes a big difference and while it doesn't put us on the same level as MDs in terms of our knowledge about prescriptions, I think that would put us roughly in line with PAs and NPs.

As to the OP:
I don't know if anyone can really say, but I wouldn't worry too much. I have no intentions of dispensing medication at any point, and I'm not worried. Right now, RxP lesgislature is moving so slowly that you might not even see RxP in your lifetime (assuming you aren't in a super-rural state). Our training IS taking more of a hard-science, math & numbers approach (which is a good thing), but I highly doubt there will come a time when we are NOT therapists first and prescribers second.
 
Pekoe - couple quick points.
1) Psychiatrists ARE MDs.
2)You may have seen the worst doctor in history.
A)Ritalin is NOT for anxiety. In fact, it often increases anxiety.
B)To confuse a panic attack with what sounds like an asthma attack is....just terrible. A high school kid should know the difference. The situation you described is more a reason to take RxP AWAY from that MD than a reason not to give them to the psychologist🙂

If I could go back in time. . . that was when Ritalin was being given for everything to kids, and Prozac to adults for stress. (Sixteen years go.)

One of the signs that she is going into a hay fever episode is that she gets very emotional as her body starts to fight it. Any time she gets upset her younger siblings ask if she wants her inhaler. :laugh:

Thank you for the clarification!
 
I have few concerns with your post.

1) you say that the Rx privileges would put us at roughly the same level as PN's and AP's, but I thought that big argument in the other thread was that PN's and AP's were unqualified and not trained extensively? I may be wrong but why would it be a good thing for us to be "roughly" on their level when we don't think they are doing a good job? (please don't get mad, the last thing I want is for another all out war on this subject again)

2) you stated that psychology is becoming more "hard science" and "math and numbers", what exactly do you mean by that? do you mean hard science in terms of biology and chemistry (if so, I am @#$!ed) and by "math and number" do you mean the research component?

sorry for asking but that last thing about hard science and math nd numbers really got me nervous. I am god awful at both of those things and I decided to study psych because it was a social science, aka soft science, and that post just really freaked me out! lol
 
2) you stated that psychology is becoming more "hard science" and "math and numbers", what exactly do you mean by that? do you mean hard science in terms of biology and chemistry (if so, I am @#$!ed) and by "math and number" do you mean the research component?

sorry for asking but that last thing about hard science and math nd numbers really got me nervous. I am god awful at both of those things and I decided to study psych because it was a social science, aka soft science, and that post just really freaked me out! lol

Don't be sorry for asking questions! 🙂 We should all go into our education with knowledge and good plans, and that requires asking questions.

I think the degree can really be what you make of it. It's very very versatile. There is definitely a continuing movement toward advanced statistical procedures across the field (this is evident from reading any journal, really). But there are also a lot of people doing things like qualitative research, and all kinds of points in between. One prof might be using structural equation modeling to look at changes in vocational aspirations in grade schoolers, while another prof at the next university over is doing qualitative interviews with people with borderline personality disorder.

One thing--whatever you do, you have to at least be able to be a competent consumer of advanced research, even if you aren't doing any of it yourself. Whether you're working in a faculty position or practicing, this is 100% essential in my opinion.

About the RxP... I have one very very big concern, which at the moment is behind my being against prescription privileges for psychologists. Prescriptions are very lucrative. I'm very worried that individuals who leave graduate school with huge debt loads will focus on prescription in order to alleviate that debt, and that those schools will quickly change to aiming to produce prescribers. I'm worried that this could lead to very very bad abuse and, worst case, that psychologists could become the servants to pharm. companies that I now think many, many psychiatrists are. With prescription privileges, unfunded programs suddenly become a much much more viable option for students.
 
1) Don't think I was the one making that argument🙂 (though its been awhile since I've looked....maybe I was). I think they do a good enough job when they work within their means and don't try to replace MDs, which is what I think RxP for psych should be. Work with the FM/IM docs to manage comorbid disorders, make sure you are checking for physical illness when psych symptoms present (although honestly, even MDs rarely do this).

2) Not to make you nervous, but yes, that is pretty much it. Psychology was really more a philosophy than a science back in the day. Its interesting sure, but crappy for the patients. These days with EEG, fMRI and the like, we're discovering more and more about the physical causes of mental illness. Now don't get me wrong, you don't need a math degree from MIT to be a psychologist, but I think most would agree its becoming increasingly important to at least be math-literate to the extent that you need to make sense of stats you read about in articles. There's plenty of non-math people who can learn to do this though, so I wouldn't freak out just yet.

Do be prepared for things to move more towards the biology/biochem end though. Have you taken biopsychology yet? Its a requirement at most undergrad schools. Things like that are sort of a hybrid of psychology and biology and I expect you'll see things moving even more in that direction over the next several decades. I know most schools are putting increased emphasis on classes like that and less on the more philosophical classes. It doesn't mean you shouldn't go into the field if you don't consider yourself a biology person, just that you should be prepared that the field is moving in that direction and if you want to keep on top of things, and be good at what you do, you may need to adjust and learn to at least have a "functional" understanding of the hard sciences if not a good one. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, what matters is that you're willing to work hard to overcome them.

My weakest science was always physics. Now I'm diving into some very dense EEG stuff which is...you guessed it, very physics-oriented. Its tough, but I'm catching on, and I think my advisor appreciates that I'm taking the time to learn something outside my comfort zone already.
 
2)You may have seen the worst doctor in history

But things like this happen all of the time. I've seen doctors and NPs prescribe antipsychotics and lithium for separation anxiety disorder, and Ritalin for basically anything. There was a thing in the NY Times (I think maybe it was posted here) where a doctor prescribed a girl with an eating disorder antipsychotics because it had the side effect of boosting appetite. As a result, she developed extreme pain that needed to be treated with regular spinal injections. I don't think this is an anomaly-- there's a lot of unthorough assessments and "one cure fits all" attitudes going around.

I for one am against RxP. Actually, most of mainstream clinical psychology is-- you may not get that impression from this forum, where supporters of RxP are overrepresented. I'm against RxP for many of the reasons that the OP raised. I think that clinical psychology, as currently practiced, has a very important role in mental health care. It's not as well respected or as well compensated for as dispensing drugs, which is something that should change through advocacy and by limiting the growth of the field. If we get RxP, clinical psychologists will inevitably shift to being pseudo-psychiatrists.

I just don't understand why people who are so interested in prescribing pills don't just become psychiatrists. Honestly, my psychopharm training has been basically nil, and I never took any chem or bio in college. I'd be hopeless at doing meds. I know that the plan is for psychologists to take a two year course to get RxP, but why would you want to go to school for 6 years to become a clin psych, and then go back for another 2? Why not just go to med school for 4 years? I'm starting my fourth year of grad school now, and nothing sounds less appealing than going back for more school once I'm finally done.

About the RxP... I have one very very big concern, which at the moment is behind my being against prescription privileges for psychologists. Prescriptions are very lucrative. I'm very worried that individuals who leave graduate school with huge debt loads will focus on prescription in order to alleviate that debt, and that those schools will quickly change to aiming to produce prescribers. I'm worried that this could lead to very very bad abuse and, worst case, that psychologists could become the servants to pharm. companies that I now think many, many psychiatrists are. With prescription privileges, unfunded programs suddenly become a much much more viable option for students.

I think that this is an interesting point. I have noticed that people from PsyD programs and professional schools tend to be the ones most strongly advocating for RxP. Of course, this could be because they are more clinically oriented, but there are some people who want purely clinical careers in my program, and I've never heard anyone express a desire for RxP here.
 
....instead of being the high-end therapists they are now, they are going to become the low-end psychiatrists of tomorrow.

Ideally a clinician can see their patients regularly, which can provide a greater level of care because they will be able to offer not only on-going therapuetic services, but also meds management, which eliminates the need to refer out.

Will psychologists work under an MD or a psychiatrist?

Neither. They practice completely independently

I worry that psychologists will assume too much without looking in to other areas. Do psychiatrists look for other problems related to behavioral issues like diabetes? I know of few psychologists who even suggest a physical for behavioral issues and hope their scope will broaden if they start dispensing medications.

A physical, blood work, etc should all be standard info that is required. Not having any of that and doling out meds is a problem. This is where consulting with the GP is key. Talk to GPs/FPs....and many WANT psychs to get RxP privledges, because they can keep in touch and keep the physician in the loop, who only sees the patient when they are sick. Psychiatrists don't do physicals or any of that, it is almost always outsourced....psychs can do the same.

A)Ritalin is NOT for anxiety. In fact, it often increases anxiety.

You can't have an N=1 and generalize across the board. (Not you Ollie, I'm just making a general statement)

The premise is not to just "Give RxP to psychologists. Its to give them 2 additional years of training FIRST, then give them RxP. Makes a big difference and while it doesn't put us on the same level as MDs in terms of our knowledge about prescriptions, I think that would put us roughly in line with PAs and NPs.

2 years of training, 1-2 more years in residency. It is MORE training than PAs and NPs, though definitely not at the same level as an MD. There are two different setups for RxP now...one that has consultation, one that is fully independant. I happen to prefer the consultation model...because no man should be an island, and it will help the pt.


I have few concerns with your post.

1) you say that the Rx privileges would put us at roughly the same level as PN's and AP's, but I thought that big argument in the other thread was that PN's and AP's were unqualified and not trained extensively? I may be wrong but why would it be a good thing for us to be "roughly" on their level when we don't think they are doing a good job? (please don't get mad, the last thing I want is for another all out war on this subject again)

NP's and PA's will see the person for how long? I think one of the STRONGEST arguments is that the clinician can see the person on a regular basis, and not just once a month for 10-15 minutes. The current model is broken, and forces current prescribers to limit their contact, and I think that is a disservice to the pts. This setup can allow the clinician to be in better touch with the pt, and keep a closer tab on them. I don't really agree with someone who JUST wants to do meds management, I think that really limits your clinical abilities.

2) you stated that psychology is becoming more "hard science" and "math and numbers", what exactly do you mean by that? do you mean hard science in terms of biology and chemistry (if so, I am @#$!ed) and by "math and number" do you mean the research component?

There is much more of an emphasis on the biological factors, neuro, etc. I think we need more of this because we are learning more and more about the biological basis of psychology. I think our training can really be enhanced by understanding this part, and then being able to apply our research-supported orientations.

I think the degree can really be what you make of it. It's very very versatile.

Definitely. Some people are afraid of diversification, but I think it strengthens our position, as long as we don't cede assessments to lesser trained providers. Therapy training is hard to 'prove', but I still think clinicians should be handling the more severe pathologies out there.

Work with the FM/IM docs to manage comorbid disorders, make sure you are checking for physical illness when psych symptoms present (although honestly, even MDs rarely do this).

Uh....yeah, I missed that you said this. I totally agree. A multi-disciplinary TEAM approach is the way to go.

If we get RxP, clinical psychologists will inevitably shift to being pseudo-psychiatrists.

This is where we disagree. I think this will allow us to better service our pts. There will be some who just do med consults, but for those who do meds management for their practice, I think this will substantially raise the level of care.

I just don't understand why people who are so interested in prescribing pills don't just become psychiatrists. Honestly, my psychopharm training has been basically nil, and I never took any chem or bio in college. I'd be hopeless at doing meds. I know that the plan is for psychologists to take a two year course to get RxP, but why would you want to go to school for 6 years to become a clin psych, and then go back for another 2? Why not just go to med school for 4 years? I'm starting my fourth year of grad school now, and nothing sounds less appealing than going back for more school once I'm finally done.

My reasoning is because I wanted the research background, combined with clinical training, and in the end I didn't want to be a physician. My career goals match much closer to the clinical path than medicine. Psychiatrists are physicians first....and it would have been a purely academic endeavor for me.

I have noticed that people from PsyD programs and professional schools tend to be the ones most strongly advocating for RxP.

Many of the people I've talked to at conferences who are looking at this are PhDs with PPs who want to manage their PP + RxP. I doubt more research oriented people would bother (why would professors bother, unless they wanted to do it with their PP?) Of course more clinically trained people would look at this route.

-t
 
so would you say that someone who is absolutley, positively, completley, 100% incompetent when it comes to what is considered "hard" science (bio, chem, physics, etc.) would be out of place in a psychology career (specifically clinical psych)? would social work be a better option?
 
so would you say that someone who is absolutley, positively, completley, 100% incompetent when it comes to what is considered "hard" science (bio, chem, physics, etc.) would be out of place in a psychology career (specifically clinical psych)? would social work be a better option?

Yes. Physics not as much, but you really need to at least know your way around some chemistry, bio, etc. I guess you could get by in a strictly psychodynamic program, but even then...I'm sure the APA requires at least psychobio, psychpharm, and a few other similar classes.

-t
 
If I could go back in time. . . that was when Ritalin was being given for everything to kids, and Prozac to adults for stress. (Sixteen years go.)

One of the signs that she is going into a hay fever episode is that she gets very emotional as her body starts to fight it. Any time she gets upset her younger siblings ask if she wants her inhaler. :laugh:

Thank you for the clarification!

Prozac, and like SSRIs, are commonly used for anxiety and have been shown to be effective.
 
Yes. Physics not as much, but you really need to at least know your way around some chemistry, bio, etc. I guess you could get by in a strictly psychodynamic program, but even then...I'm sure the APA requires at least psychobio, psychpharm, and a few other similar classes.

-t


Now, T4C.. come on..

Social work is a distinct entity from psychology (although there is certainly some overlap). If you want to do SW because you're passionate about what it is, go for it. If you want to do it because you really prefer psychology but SW seems like an easier road to take, that's not going to serve anyone very well- yourself, your school, your clients, or your (future) employer. It is its own profession, not a dumping ground.

/high horse
 
Now, T4C.. come on..

Social work is a distinct entity from psychology (although there is certainly some overlap). If you want to do SW because you're passionate about what it is, go for it. If you want to do it because you really prefer psychology but SW seems like an easier road to take, that's not going to serve anyone very well- yourself, your school, your clients, or your (future) employer. It is its own profession, not a dumping ground.

/high horse

I didn't mean it in any disrespect to SW, I was simply addressing his concern about some of the foundational knowledge necessary for clinical psych. From my understanding, SW provides broader training (outside of just therapy), and that may be more helpful, instead of trudging through the science parts that he stated he wasn't too keen on.

-t
 
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Yes. Physics not as much, but you really need to at least know your way around some chemistry, bio, etc. I guess you could get by in a strictly psychodynamic program, but even then...I'm sure the APA requires at least psychobio, psychpharm, and a few other similar classes.

-t

Not true. I will honestly cop up to knowing next to nothing about chem. I know basic neuro, but no more bio. I'm not saying that those courses don't help, but honestly in three full years of grad school I have yet to encounter problems due to my lack of knowledge about chem (I do wish I had more bio knowledge, but I still get by OK). APA does not require psychopharm-- my program doesn't offer a course (I do think it should, but it doesn't-- but then we're research oriented, so maybe the interest isn't there). I believe APA requires 3 out of area courses (e.g., neuro, cognitive, social, developmental), as well as standard courses like assessment, psychopathology etc., although I could be mixing up APA's requirements with those for licensure. I'm positive that psychopharm is not a req, though. I doubt it's moving in that direction, either-- there seem to be bigger trends towards requiring multicultural courses and things of that nature.
 
Not true. I will honestly cop up to knowing next to nothing about chem. I know basic neuro, but no more bio. I'm not saying that those courses don't help, but honestly in three full years of grad school I have yet to encounter problems due to my lack of knowledge about chem (I do wish I had more bio knowledge, but I still get by OK).

That is surprising. Things like psychobiology and psychopharmacology seem like absolute necessities for anyone who is in psych, at least to me. The vast majority of pt I've seen have been on meds, and I'd be lost if I didn't know the basics of what they are on, why, etc. I can understand people who don't want to do neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, etc.....but I'd feel unprepared if I didn't understand the basics behind how various neurotransmitters interact, how general neuroanatomy issues (covered in a psychobiology class, basic neuro, etc) can influence affect, mood, memory, etc?

-t
 
Master's level therapists invade psychotherapy in the 1990's offering basically the same services as doctoral-level psychologists, but at reduced costs.

Psychologists look around and say, uh-oh, our clinical profession is being invaded by lower-cost alternatives and we don't have the research that backs up the doctorate as being better (faster outcomes, longer-lasting outcomes, higher-quality outcomes, etc.) for clients seeking therapy services.

The tiny prescription movement blossoms into something bigger and after years of military-based trials, they eventually get 2 or 3 states to approve psychologists prescribing (tellingly, states which have trouble with having enough psychiatrists around to prescribe). Sometimes under the supervision of an MD, and of course, with a lot more coursework.

I also think that psychologists going down the prescription road is a lot of effort and money wasted on invading another profession (psychiatry). Psychologists could always become prescribers if they wanted, as PAs, NPs or MDs. I don't know where this is going to lead to, but I have my doubts that this was the best way to move the profession forward...

-J
 
That is surprising. Things like psychobiology and psychopharmacology seem like absolute necessities for anyone who is in psych, at least to me. The vast majority of pt I've seen have been on meds, and I'd be lost if I didn't know the basics of what they are on, why, etc. I can understand people who don't want to do neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, etc.....but I'd feel unprepared if I didn't understand the basics behind how various neurotransmitters interact, how general neuroanatomy issues (covered in a psychobiology class, basic neuro, etc) can influence affect, mood, memory, etc?

-t

We are required to take one neuro class, which I have done. I think that may be an APA thing. But not psychopharm. I don't feel lost with my clients. I just tell them that I'm not a psychiatrist and therefore am unable to provide any advice about meds, and we focus on psychosocial stuff, which is why they came to me in the first place. I wouldn't mind knowing more about psychopharm, but I don't think it should be required-- there's so much that's required already, so adding more would probably mean cutting out other things.
 
i am sorry to have offended you, i do not consider SW to be a "dumping ground", i have much respect and hold social workers (and especially LCSW's since i found myself on ones couch one time and he did excellent work) in very high esteem. i was just thinking about it because i know that they are different, and i know that they overlap, and to be entirely honest I DONT KNOW WHAT I'M DOING! SW is definitely a viable option for me, not because of what you think, but because i genuinely have an interest in also working within the social welfare system (in addition to learning the therapy techiniques and so on).

i am kind've flying blind at this point (to explain why im asking so many questions). my interests range all across the board: clinical psych, SW, special education, counseling, etc. the list goes on and on, right off into the sunset! so, please, dont take my sudden interest in SW as a cop out from clinical psych. I dont know which way im headed yet so you're probably going to see me doing alot of 180's
 
We are required to take one neuro class, which I have done. I think that may be an APA thing. But not psychopharm. I don't feel lost with my clients. I just tell them that I'm not a psychiatrist and therefore am unable to provide any advice about meds, and we focus on psychosocial stuff, which is why they came to me in the first place. I wouldn't mind knowing more about psychopharm, but I don't think it should be required-- there's so much that's required already, so adding more would probably mean cutting out other things.

I know what you mean about already having a full schedule, and then having the APA require more classes; it is definitely a difficult balance. With the recent focus on diversity (another important area), it seems that there is an overload of 'required' classes.

In regard to the meds stuff....I don't want people to provide medical advice in regard to meds (not our area), but rather have a better understanding of how the meds may effect the pt and our sessions. For instance, I had a pt come into session very lethargic, unfocused, poor eye contact, scattered thoughts, etc. I was trying to get a gauge if her depressive Sx's increased, and/or if there were other issues at play. I noticed in her chart that her Serequel had been increased. I knew that her Sxs could be related to one of the most common SE of Serequel, which is sedation.

Do you NEED to know that stuff....no, but is it helpful to understand how it can play a role in their presentation of mood, affect, etc....definitely.

-t
 
I realize what I said earlier might have been misinterpreted so I want to clarify.

You can CERTAINLY get through graduate school and out into the field without having a biology and chemistry background. You will of course, have to know the basics like the anatomy of the brain, how neurons work, things like that to even get a BA in psych from the worst of schools, but it doesn't get too in-depth with real nitty-gritty bio and chem unless you want it to.

My post is more referring to the future of psychology. It is becoming more and more of a hard science. It isn't like someone who didn't take organic chemistry as an undergraduate will become useless in the field, but I do think someone who either isn't willing, or isn't capable of learning more "hard science" material will be at an increasing disadvantage compared to their peers who are.

Would I discourage you from trying? Absolutely not, but I think its important to recognize that if you are looking for something more like "brain philosophy", this is probably the wrong field. And if it isn't now, it certainly will be in another 20 years. If you can't keep up the basics on math and hard science, you won't be reading and understanding much of what is in the journals, and you will get left behind. Its one thing to not be an expert in microbiology. No one expects psychologists to be experts in biology, that's what biologists are for🙂 What worries me is that you seem convinced that even the basics of it are beyond you, and I DO think that someone who can't at least achieve a basic grasp of that material will be in very serious trouble down the road.
 
I certainly don't want to give you the impression that I am not willing to learn, that is not the case I can assure you. my concern is that with the field moving more and more towards math and science, I am going to find myself struggling to keep my head above water (much like I did in high school and am now doing in college. I got a D in math 101, how am I gonna do doctoral level stats? and in my general psych class I completely flunked our test on biopsych, how am I gonna make it through psychopharm and all the other science courses you need to take?)
Its not that I'm not willing to learn, its just that I'm concerned bout going into a field that is going to become much more intensive on the subjects I have been strugling with all of my life, that's all.
 
Would it be possible for you to provide me some examples of the journals you are referencing. Perhaps that allow me to obtain these documents and review to determine the level of math and science expertise necessary to gain an understanding of their content.
 
I certainly don't want to give you the impression that I am not willing to learn, that is not the case I can assure you. my concern is that with the field moving more and more towards math and science, I am going to find myself struggling to keep my head above water (much like I did in high school and am now doing in college. I got a D in math 101, how am I gonna do doctoral level stats? and in my general psych class I completely flunked our test on biopsych, how am I gonna make it through psychopharm and all the other science courses you need to take?)

I don't want to paint an unrealistically rosey picture, but your performance in the bio component of intro psych doesn't necessarily reflect your real ability to learn the subject area. Plus, some thing might just be taught poorly--I did two neuropsych courses and did very well before I took Personality, and I prompted got my worst test mark ever on the neuro component test in Personality. It was just very poorly taught and tested.

Stats to me feels very different from math that you'd go over in 101 (vectors and matrixes and stuff like that?). It's much more easy to see the real implications of what you're doing in Stats. Have you taken a research methods course yet? Those can illuminate the stats component of research and make it more accessible than you might think.

🙂
 
Intro to Psych vaguely resembles what you really learn in psych. Sometimes it is much more about rote memorization, which is not (IMHO) the best way to learn psych, since so much of what we do is about learning about theory, synthesizing your learning, and then applying it.

-t
 
Don't judge all classes by intro, you could have just had a terrible professor. You'll have to take biopsych or an equivalent at some point, that should make it slightly more clear.

As for math, stats isn't really "math" if your prof teaches it correctly (mine didn't). What year are you? These are all things you'll find out over the course of doing a psych major, or should anyways. There's really no way for us to predict how you'll do in courses you haven't taken yet. I say take psych stats and a biopsych courses as early as it is reasonable to do so. Though make sure you have the pre-reqs done because if its a topic you struggle with already there is no sense in making it more difficult. This way you have ample time to switch your major if you discover those classes just aren't feasible. The only way to know is to try🙂

As for journals, if you are as new to psych as I think you are I'm kind of hesitant to do so because you'll get scared. We all do, I'm starting graduate school and can still barely comprehend half the stats stuff. Difference being I'm confident I can learn it given the opportunity. If you really do want to see what psychology will be like when you get to more advanced levels though, just go digging through your university website and look for a database called PsycInfo. Do a search on that for some random topic like "depression" or "eating disorders" and just pick a few random papers. Look for a "full text" version.

Don't panic if you don't understand, because I didn't even start to have a basic understanding until my senior year, and I'm still not sure how much I truly understand them🙂 The results section should give you a good picture of the kinds of things you are expected to at least be able to interpret as a psychologist (and you'll have to be able to produce them to in order to get a doctorate).

I really feel like I shouldn't have said this, because I remember how intimidating research articles can be when you're first starting. I really do think you're just going to have to wait and try and take the hard classes early on to find out if you can handle it and still have time to switch if it turns out you can't. Best of luck and let me know if there's anything else I can do to help.
 
The great thing about journal articles is that they typically share the same basic format, and when you get some of the basics covered, you can start to tackle articles I think if you can wrap your head around some of the basic concepts of research, then you can look to stats to show the "how".

Stats (for me at least) really came together when we started using real data. I think what really helped me was doing my outside research, and then realizing how what I was learning in class applied to what I was researching. (<---is why I think a balanced program is the most effective training model). Overall I consider my stats learning to be a collection of massive frustration, with a bunch of "Ah-ha!" moments mixed in.

I still remember sitting in my first stats prof's office talking about a post-hoc adjustment (Bonferroni), and me finally going..."I got it!". I had an assignment, and I knew that I needed it, and I go the right answers, but until then I didn't fully understand the reasoning behind it. Not a complex thing, but stats for me was definitely a grind, and it was nice to feel like I was starting to get it.

As an aside, I was lucky that 2 of my 3 stats profs (undergrad/grad) were excellent instructors, and really made the learning interesting. Research isn't my main focus, but I am starting to enjoy the work more, and hopefully through that I'll pick up more of the nuances of stats.

-t
 
thank you very much for all your help you guys, it has really helped me out. for the record, i am a freshman psych major moving into my sophmore year and have only taken 2 classes in psych (what can i say, i obsess). it has been great speaking to you all about this and i was wondering if i could ask you guys one last question?

my school psychology program has a very close realtionship with pace university, and i have found myself becoming more and more infatuated with the loss and grief counseling program. i was wondering what the status was in the psychology field on counselors, are they respected? (obviously i dont expect them to be on the same level as docs but it would be nice to not be at the absolute bottom of the totem pole being looked down on all of the time) and also, what do you think the future holds for the counseling field?
 
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acidicspecies08

I will answer that last question as I am an LPC. Sometimes still scaries me to think I finally completed all of the requirements for the license. I just recieved my full license 3 weeks ago and have been in the field for the last 3 years. On the professional level I interact with non-psychiatrists MDs, Psychiatrists, Psychologists, LCSWs, LMSWs, and LCDCs all of the time. Professionally I rarely if ever see a lack of respect or poor attitude from any of the people I have worked with, the key is being a competent professional yourself. Know how to do the job, know something about other people's job and education so you can interact with them. Academically or in less professional arenas I see more of the disrespect or lousy attitudes. There will always be differences in degree requirments and scopes of practice, but each profession has a valid approach to treating people that can be brought to the treatment team.

As to your concerns academically knowing your hard sciences will help in your practice when you make to the professional level. If you truly want to practice professionally start talking to your advisors at school knock the prereqs to the harder classes, get into the good study routine, find great tutors, and you can learn. I failed geometry in high school 3 times, and algebra 2 2 times. When I took psych stats, I was scared ****less that I would never make it, I took to it like a duck to water. Always keep asking questions.

Jeff
 
Great advice Jeff!

In addition, many times the things most worth learning are the hardest things for you. I took some programming classes in colleges (which screwed up my GPA!!!), but they ended up teaching me how to work harder at something I was just NOT good at. Ironically I ended up using some of the programming too.

-t