a generic post that will answer 90% of questions on this board

[MikeS 78]

as a sort of preemtpive strike I will post the answers that are always given when the SAME QUESTION IS ASKED FOR THE 80000TH TIME

1) NO ONE CARES WHERE YOU DID YOUR UNDERGRAD....even when applying to med school.....thus there is no way you can go to the correct school and clinch a spot in med school.......this is aimed specifically at anyone in high school looking for a "Sure thing"...pick your college based on where you fit in and which has the best parties because really learning organic chem has alot less to do with your development as a doctor than learning to be a affable person
2) PEOPLE CARE EVEN LESS ABOUT YOUR MAJOR

3) For those inquiring about your chances here are your chances
a) If you have slightly above average grades and MCAT's apply alot of places (>15) and you should get in somewhere
b) below average numbers- if you are interesting you might have a chance at a few places...do some research and maybe things will pan out
C) off the charts numbers- you probably are asking this in order for some praise from people on the board......you are probably very insecure and could be in for some distress when you realize that there are alot of people in med school at or above your level

4) surgical sub specialties, ER and derm are tough to match at.......most other ones usually arent unless it is one of the best programs

5) some doctors make alot of money....others make less but all make about 3 of more times the average american

6) There is only one way to do well on the mcat....take alot of mcats and figure out what they are testing and why......there are really no schemes (ie changing test centers, religions or genders) to improve your score outside of that

7) there is no one in high school who is mature enough to say they want to be a cardiac surgeon....or even that they actually want to be a doctor....period

8) DO's can do anything an MD can but often have problems getting into competitive allopathic residencies

9) Grades aren't really that important as long as they arent bad and you didnt bomb the big classes you will be ok if you ace the MCAT

10) doing anything for the sake of having it look good on your CV is self defeating......if you get asked about your research in the interview and all you did was mix solutions and autoclave beakers....you might as well have thrown in some profanities and racist remarks because they couldnt hurt much worse

11) when someone tells you about the guy with 45 on the mcat who didn't get in the only reason they are telling that story is because it is a fluke.....it isnt quite as notable when that guy gets in without problem

12 usually that guy is either boring or a serious jackass

13) DID I THROW IN THAT NO ONE CARES WHERE YOU WENT TO SCHOOL AT

---

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[Amy]

Hehehe, this post is amuzing Mike, thanks for the laugh (and the info).

 

[doughboy]

Its no fun now since you've told all the young'uns all the answers to their questions. Just reading the same generic **** each week can be quite amusing when the veterans all get pissy on them.

 

[fishtolive]

wonderfully done!

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

So, uh..Do I have a shot at a top 20?

 

[cchoukal]

Tastefully done. Seriously, that pretty much covers it.

 

[nmehta]

Nicely done. No longer a need for a forum...just make a FAQ off of this.

Neel

 

[rxfudd]

Come to think of it, why DON'T we have an FAQ of this type (most forums do)? That way, when we get a tired, trite question, we can just refer them. Maybe someone can come up with an FAQ, we can all vote on it (2/3 majority sounds fair), and send it off for posting.

 

[Doctor Wyldstyle]

Honestly, I think that is a great idea! A FAQ would let us answer more specific questions without the repetition! What do you say moderators??!!

wyldstyle2000

 

[mj]

a couple more:

14. You can take pre reqs at a community college but don't if you have another option.

15. If you are applying DO, you NEED a DO letter -- get out the phone book and let your fingers do the walking. Don't get discouraged.

16. You can mention almost anything on your personal statement such as religion, sexual orientation or obsession with chocolate Pop Tarts if it is applicable to why you want to be a doctor and as long as you understand that not everyone is tolerant of chocolate pop tart groupies

17. If you wouldn't go into the military without being a doctor, don't go merely so they will pay for your school. You will be disappointed

18. August MCATers -- It is possible to get in with an August MCAT, but it is always preferable to do the April if you can

19. You can get in as an older non trad or career changer -- lots of people here have done it. Pre reqs include 1yr of bio, 1 yr gen chem, 1 yr of organic and 1 yr of Physics all with lab. No how to answer the "why this, why now" question.

20. Many people go to med school with kids. Success is dependent on personal expectations and support network

And in case Mike didn't mention it: NO ONE CARES WHERE YOU GO TO SCHOOL

mj

 

[cedricw]

Well, as a current MSII and someone that researched getting into medical school fairly extensively since I was in high school, I have to disagree on some points.

1)NO ONE CARES WHERE YOU DID YOUR UNDERGRAD

Though it usually will not be a determining factor, someone from a more competitive school (ie UCLA) will be much more successful with similar stats than someone from a much less competitive school (ie USC). Usually people who argue that it "doesn't matter" are people who are insecure about their own school.

2)PEOPLE CARE EVEN LESS ABOUT YOUR MAJOR

The only people who say this are Bio majors. It is a fact that non science majors are much more successful as a group gaining admission than science majors...so obviously someone cares.

3a) Chances - If you have slightly above average grades and MCAT's apply alot of places (>15) and you should get in somewhere.

You must not live in California, because that may be true for some hillbilly town in the midwest, but it sure as heck isn't true for CA. The AVERAGE number of schools students from my undergrad applied to was 30. The AVERAGE. And many of those students had very excellent stats.

4) surgical sub specialties, ER and derm are tough to match at.......most other ones usually arent unless it is one of the best programs.

Well you are correct about subsurg and derm, but ER is no longer very difficult. As the director of the ER department at our hospital says, just remain in the top 50% of your class. Additionally ENT is fairly competitive as well.

7) there is no one in high school who is mature enough to say they want to be a cardiac surgeon....or even that they actually want to be a doctor....period

Wow, that's a pretty condescending opinion. Though I agree high school is early for most to decide on a career in medicine and most who say they want to be a doctor either get weeded out or discover something they enjoy better, it is wrong to assume that someone is immature to decide they want to be a doctor simply because they are 18. I decided I wanted to be a doctor when I was 16, put a hell of a lot of effort into it and here I am today as a 23 year old MSII. I wouldn't change a thing either. I absolutely love what I am doing.

10) doing anything for the sake of having it look good on your CV is self defeating......if you get asked about your research in the interview and all you did was mix solutions and autoclave beakers....you might as well have thrown in some profanities and racist remarks because they couldnt hurt much worse.

Well, when I was sitting in the chair being interviewed for UCSF and I told the doctor I didn't do research simply because I wasn't interested in it and didn't feel I would be interested in research as a physician I probably could have hurled out racial slurs and it wouldn't have made his opinion of me any worse. The fact of the matter is that though it shouldn't be a good thing if someone does something simply for their app, it goes on everyday with virtually every applicant and today it is VERY difficult for someone to just be honest and do only what they enjoy. EVERY applicant has something he did just to put on his application, some people just do a little more than others.

null

 

[ducam]

This is about how high school students are not mature enough to know if they want to be a doctor. As a high school student I disagree with this. How can you alone be judgeing every single high school student who wants to be a doctor? You have no clue about any of the people you are talking about. Some will change their minds and become something else, but others will in fact be come doctors and probably good ones at that too. I know there is not a single HS studnet who knows 100% what type of doctor they will be, but there are students that are 100% sure that they will be doctors.

 

[lilycat]

Originally posted by wyldstyle2000:
•Honestly, I think that is a great idea! A FAQ would let us answer more specific questions without the repetition! What do you say moderators??!!

wyldstyle2000•

Actually, we have been working on an FAQ for a few months now. We moderators brainstormed the most common questions that come up for each section, and then went back through all threads to find some of the best responses to link to. However, this thread provides a good opportunity to remind Lee and the others about this project.

 

[turtleboard]

Great list of answers to some of the more common questions, Mike, but your responses are slightly off the mark.

Originally posted by MikeS 78:
•1) NO ONE CARES WHERE YOU DID YOUR UNDERGRAD....even when applying to med school
•

Perhaps people in the real-world don't really care and going to Harvard only produces a "Wow" response at cocktail parties, but med school admissions committees do care about your undergraduate education. Even if Gonzaga is a better "fit" for you, going to Harvard will help you a heck of a lot more in med school applications.

•
2) PEOPLE CARE EVEN LESS ABOUT YOUR MAJOR•

Again people in the real-world may not care about your major, but med school admissions committees do. If I walk up to a random person on the street and say, "Hey random person, I have a B.A. in Mathematics," he will undoubtedly reply (if we're in New York City, that is) "F*&^ing freak, get the f*&^ away from me before I beat the $hit out of you." If I were to tell an admissions committee person that, considering there are fewer than 300 applicants (or matriculants) with B.A.s in Mathematics, I might be seen as unique. Furthermore because Mathematics is considered a more challenging major than, say, Philosophy, a math major's chances are a bit better (everything else being equal).

•
3) For those inquiring about your chances here are your chances
a) If you have slightly above average grades and MCAT's apply alot of places (>15) and you should get in somewhere
•

Tell that to someone from the States of New York or California. Those two are arguably the TOUGHEST premed states in the country, and having "slightly above average grades and MCATs" won't get you into most places. Yes, even SUNYs.

•
7) there is no one in high school who is mature enough to say they want to be a cardiac surgeon....or even that they actually want to be a doctor....period

•

Some students motivate themselves by setting goals. Reading a high school student's intention that he "definitely wants to be a heart surgeon" may seem annoyingly precocious, but hearing an MS1 express the same sentiments is equally ridiculous. Neither have had any real experience even in a general surgical setting, let alone one in CT! But the point is that both the high school student and the MS1 should be encouraged to explore those options rather than be shot down by an older, supposedly wiser student who believes that just because he might not have had those dreams as a high school student that others couldn't possibly either.

When I look back at the choices I've made in my education, I credit high school with being the place where I decided I would work my butt off for med school. So, gee, I'm supposedly not mature enough to make those kinds of decisions, but here I am.

•
9) Grades aren't really that important as long as they arent bad and you didnt bomb the big classes you will be ok if you ace the MCAT•

Even acing the MCAT with a poor GPA would raise red flags all over your application. It's convention wisdom, but we're talking about an MCAT in the lower to mid 30s combined with around a 3.3 GPA -- NOT the same or higher MCAT with a 3.0 or below.

•
13) DID I THROW IN THAT NO ONE CARES WHERE YOU WENT TO SCHOOL AT•

Yes, you (inaccurately) did.

 

[rxfudd]

Originally posted by ducam:
•This is about how high school students are not mature enough to know if they want to be a doctor. As a high school student I disagree with this. How can you alone be judgeing every single high school student who wants to be a doctor? You have no clue about any of the people you are talking about. Some will change their minds and become something else, but others will in fact be come doctors and probably good ones at that too. I know there is not a single HS studnet who knows 100% what type of doctor they will be, but there are students that are 100% sure that they will be doctors.•

Although I disagree with the immaturity issue, I definitely think that high school students have no concept of what the road to being a doctor really is. And even if they do know, they haven't experienced much of it. I don't think people in high school really understand what it's like to be under the pressures of taking organic, bio, and physics, and tedious electives while working a job, being active on campus, having a social life, etc, ALL while maintaining great grades in EVERYTHING. Sure, you hear about the difficulties. But it's really something you have to experience (it is noteworthy that most people decided NOT to go into medicine after having taken some of these courses and within their first year in college).

Furthermore, most have not had the opportunity to experience medicine through volunteering/working in a hospital (I'm sure some have, but this by far a minority). They have a mental picture of what it might be like (especially thanks to ER), but I'm not convinced that it is accurate. I'm not even convinced that I have an accurate idea, and I've done 1000+ hours of volunteer work...

I, too, am skeptical when I hear high school students say, "I KNOW that I want to be a *fill in a specialty, especially the detailed ones*. This is not immaturity, just a lack of experience. They will learn, though. We all did.

I highly support an FAQ - it would be so nice to just post a link in response to some of these questions.

By the way - Cedricw - I think you overestimate the weight that ones college or major plays in the admissions process. You state that a student will be much more succuessful if they have gone to a better university or majored in a non-science. I think that "much more" is way too strong. Yes, they have a statistical advantage. But "much more" makes it sound most people in med school come from great colleges with non-science majors. This is clearly not true. I think "a bit more" is accurate. No matter how you cut it, a student with great grades will get into a medical school - this was the original posters point.

 

[Newdoc2002]

Ahh, Even a post filled with sarcasm and a good deal of truth brings out the insecure. I'm sorry for those who feel they must refute everypoint on the original post. Have you not gotten over the fact that there are people with numbers, activities and compassion that rivals yours? Does it hurt that Johnny Overalls from Midwestern A&M in Corn-country, IA got into med school and will have the same initials after his/her name?

Some of you people need to get a life and personality or at least go into research. And don't give me that, "I was just trying to dispell misinformation" junk. If you can't handle a little well placed humor, then go hang out with the rats in the basement lab.

 

[doughboy]

That's right baby, shoot em down. I love it when people get all pissy over nothing. Just goes to show us that we can't just have a little fun.

 

[tc]

It is interesting (and amusing) to note that the only people who complained about points in the original post were:

1. God's gift to medicine from undoubtedly the greatest med school in the nation.

2. high school students displaying youthful arrogance and ignorance thus emphasizing the original poster's message.

The FAQ sounds like a great idea. It should have a link from the front page of SDN.

tc

*---*
tc (the real johnny overalls) is 38, took pre-reqs at a rural community college, had a 2.1 after his sophomore year and 3.0 final but a good MCAT score, majored in psych, has close friends in DO school, did real research at the med school he wanted to attend, volunteered at the county pediatric clinic on Saturday for two years and is an MS1 at a top 20 school. Oh my God, I AM THE FAQ!

Oh, yeah. I forgot to mention where I did undergrad BECAUSE NOBODY CARES AND IT DOESN'T MATTER as long as somebody from there will write for me a recommendation letter in english on the school's letter head!

 

[mj]

Additional FAQ I believe

For every thread posted:

1. A # of posters will post something arrogant, sarcastic or demeaning in response
2. A # of posters directly proportional to the sq of the # in 1. will post complaints about posters in 1
3. Following 1 and 2 someone will point out that someone misspelled something
4. The # of posters in 1 - 3 will increase proportionately during the summer, the spring while people are waiting for match and acceptance letters and obviously between M1, M2 and M3 years in NY
5. If you get through all the BS above, you will probably find an answer that suits you as most of the questions asked here have gray answers.

mj

 

[Doctor_Joyce_Brutha]

Hehehe, this post is amuzing Mike,

just pointing out a misspelling..
did you mean "AMAZING" or "AMUSING??

 

[MikeS 78]

first I must state that I resent the comment comparing myself.....or the midwest in general to the term hillbilly

first the reason non-sci majors are more successful is typically they have a lower percentage of tools (ie people who cannot conduct themselves in an interview setting) than the sciences.....please don't attempt to argue this as it is rather self evident

let me reiterate that no one does care about undergrad and I am living proof......

I went to a 3rd tier state school (hint we won the NCAA football championship last year) and ended up at a top 5 ivy league med school.....and I didn't even graduate college...yes no BA or BS

during my interviews 6 out of the ten said that they were rather happy to see someone of my calliber who was not from princeton etc

they said that while they take alot of kids from the Ivy type places...the major reason is because these schools tend to attract talented people....and that undergraduate education is too standardized to matter

Thus the deans of 6 of the best schools in the country told me point blank that they could care less where you graduated from

my point about high schoolers is that you have really have no idea what your talking about......I know this because I once was your age....and wanted to go to med school and i didnt have the damndest idea what I was talking about..it wasnt until working in a hospital for 2 years in college that I really knew why I was doing what I'm doing...and there are alot of people who are awfully smart who get to med school and find out they made a bad decision for them.....so who the hell do you think you are telling me that you are head and shoulders above us all

the point here is not to bash but rather to state that I think its crazy for anyone to sit back at 18 and map it all out.....I'm pretty damn glad me at 18 isnt calling the shots....I learned alot about life in college that I think really altered the way I view the world....and it is Hubris in the first degree to tell me that you are soo much smarter than me (or anyone else for that matter) that you can make that decisions with alot less experience

in Closing.....the only people who really have defended the good undergrad gets you into a good med school....are people who are trying to justify their failure therein

 

[doughboy]

mj-that cracked me up. Biyaaaaatch!

 

[cedricw]

Originally posted by MikeS 78:
•first I must state that I resent the comment comparing myself.....or the midwest in general to the term hillbilly•

I must apologize for that, I was in an angry mood at the time I read your post. You seemed to sound like you felt very high and mighty attempting to explain the key to medical school admissions based on one application (yours).

•

first the reason non-sci majors are more successful is typically they have a lower percentage of tools (ie people who cannot conduct themselves in an interview setting) than the sciences.....please don't attempt to argue this as it is rather self evident
•

I agree...that is one reason why it is called "well rounded." However, it does look favorably that someone studies a non sci subject in undergrad. Don't you think it's a valid thought that maybe a member of the admissions committee may say, "well at least this one knows a little more than just biology." It is a fact that they want well rounded candidates and what better way to show them you are well rounded than with a well rounded education.

•

let me reiterate that no one does care about undergrad and I am living proof......
•

This statement alone shows why your post had so many errors in it. Anyone who has gone through the application process knows that there are a number of things that go into gaining admission into medical school, and you cannot take one application and make a general statement that holds true for all applicants. Therefore, "I am living proof...nobody cares about where you did undergrad" is completely and totally false. As I said before, it often isn't a deciding factor, but it does come into play. That doesn't mean if you come from a 3rd tier school you can't gain admission to a top 5, nor does it mean if you go to Harvard you will gain admission no matter what. It just means all else being equal (and I mean all else) candidate A will be accepted over candidate B if A's school was more competitive and they know this.

•

I went to a 3rd tier state school (hint we won the NCAA football championship last year) and ended up at a top 5 ivy league med school.....and I didn't even graduate college...yes no BA or BS
•

Again, you cannot make rules that apply to everyone else base merely on your application.

•

my point about high schoolers is that you have really have no idea what your talking about......I know this because I once was your age....and wanted to go to med school and i didnt have the damndest idea what I was talking about..
•

Sheesh, you're still trying to make rules for other people based on your own personal application. Just because you may think you were too immature to know you wanted to be a doctor doesn't mean that applies to everyone. Like I said earlier, many will get weeded out and many will change their mind, but there are a handful that know it, follow through with it and love it.

•

it wasnt until working in a hospital for 2 years in college that I really knew why I was doing what I'm doing...
•

Haha, I guess people are incapable of working in a hospital during high school (maybe I was dreaming the 2 years in high school I thought I worked in a hospital). And that is the only way to enlightenment right?

•

and there are alot of people who are awfully smart who get to med school and find out they made a bad decision for them.....•

Agreed, but does that mean every high schooler is too immature to decide they want to be a doctor with any merit?

•

so who the hell do you think you are telling me that you are head and shoulders above us all•

Read your posts jackass, it is YOU that is attempting to make rules for everyone else to follow based on your own application...

"I wasn't mature enough to decide to be a doctor...I guess that means NOBODY is mature enough at that age...har har har...."

•

the point here is not to bash but rather to state that I think its crazy for anyone to sit back at 18 and map it all out.....I'm pretty damn glad me at 18 isnt calling the shots....I learned alot about life in college that I think really altered the way I view the world....and it is Hubris in the first degree to tell me that you are soo much smarter than me (or anyone else for that matter) that you can make that decisions with alot less experience
•

Like I said many times before, I AGREE WITH YOU HERE. It is just that you made a blanket statement that anyone in high school was too immature to decide they want to be a doctor. That is not true. Most students don't have the experience and most students don't understand what really goes into it. It is a more informed decision after they gain more experience, but that doesn't mean they are all too immature to decide they want to be doctors.

•

in Closing.....the only people who really have defended the good undergrad gets you into a good med school....are people who are trying to justify their failure therein•

Again, nobody said a good undergrad gets you into a good med school (or at least I never said that). But undergrad does have worth, period. The only people that deny it has any worth are students of 3rd tier schools.

 

[EricCSU]

Read your posts jackass, it is YOU that is attempting to make rules for everyone else to follow based on your own application...

Is the name-calling really necessary? This is usually the point where threads go south.

Eric

 

[doughboy]

A little profanity here and there can sometimes express true feelings rather than trying to be diplomatic all the time. Don't you think? But, yes, I do believe there are limits on that.

 

[Jamier2]

Originally posted by EricCSU:
•Is the name-calling really necessary? This is usually the point where threads go south.

Eric•

I agree. Profanity is just some jackass' expression of his/her stupidity.

Althought that was written jokingly, I agree that the profanity isn't necessary.

 

[Doctor_Joyce_Brutha]

He only called you a jackass...
He didnt say, "look ya F%^&in' Jackass!" or "You stupid, piece of $^*t, jackass!!"

 

[Cobragirl]

I have to ask a question that has been bothering me for some time. Why is it that "science" majors are usually NOT considered to be "well-rounded", yet all the other majors are???? How does one justify a business major, or a foreign language major, or a history major (or any other damn major) MORE well-rounded than I am?

It seems to me that science majors are a MINORITY at almost any college/university in the country (probably the world) and as such, WE should be the "well-rounded" ones! Sure, many of us may not know every word to every play that Shakespeare wrote, or who won the Battle of Waterloo, but dang it, neither do most of the "well-rounded" people. Frankly, I think that because we DO know about science (unlike the vast majority of our country...go to your nearest street corner and ask people how many planets are in our solar system, most people have no clue!) that makes US the well-rounded ones. Science majors have to take English, History, Philosophy, Foreign Language, etc,etc, to graduate....it's not like we just sit in a lab and clean beakers for 4 years. In addition, many, many, many science majors have very diverse and refined "hobbies". Let's face it, how many great scientists have also been great composers, artists, philosophers, writers, and the like???? LOTS!!!! Personally, I think that science is a doorway to UNDERSTANDING the "beautiful" things in life...something that many non-science people just don't "get"....so I ask....how are WE the ones that aren't "well-rounded"?????

 

[different strokes]

Rxfudd, we cannot generalize by saying that people switch from medicine to something else because med is too difficult. Sometimes people switch to fields that are more challenging, less challenging or just as challenging. For me I would never switch from medicine to a grad program in mathematics because I find higher end math (e.g. partial differential equations part 1 and 2) to be rather difficult.

We can't go around saying that medicine is the most difficult career to pursue. IT IS AN INDIVIDUAL THING. I have a cousin who has a mathematics disability. He is a family practice doctor. But, he will admit that he could never do an engineering or a physics program. He still finds algebra difficult.

 

[different strokes]

I think a person should not be judged as being well rounded or not well rounded by the chosen major. As far as majors go many people major in non-science disciplines, but have taken many science courses. I was a science major but I took many courses in psychology and social work.

Also, people of all majors pursue interests outside of academia. After all, life is not only about academics.

 

[lilycat]

Cobragirl, I agree with you that it's sort of an erroneous assumption for people to make, that because you are a science major going to med school, you aren't academically well-rounded. However, I think that perception comes from the fact that many science majors/pre-meds don't take very many courses outside their science major/pre-med curriculum (courses which often overlap anyways), beyond the graduation requirements in other departments, which students are often able to test out of with AP credits anyways. However, non-science majors who are pre-med essentially are completing two majors in two very separate academic areas, which generates the perception that they are more "well-rounded" than just the straight liberal arts major, or just the straight science major. Also, although it's not this cut-and-dry, people generally fall into the camp of excelling only in liberal arts disciplines or only in science disciplines -- it is a little more unusual to find people who are interested and excel in both areas of study.

As for the perceived increased success of non-science majors in the med school application process, my guess is that it has more to do with the fact that there are far fewer liberal arts majors applying than science majors than any sort of perception of extra well-roundedness.

 

[ducam]

Originally posted by rxfudd:
[QB]Although I disagree with the immaturity issue, I definitely think that high school students have no concept of what the road to being a doctor really is. And even if they do know, they haven't experienced much of it. I don't think people in high school really understand what it's like to be under the pressures of taking organic, bio, and physics, and tedious electives while working a job, being active on campus, having a social life, etc, ALL while maintaining great grades in EVERYTHING. Sure, you hear about the difficulties. But it's really something you have to experience (it is noteworthy that most people decided NOT to go into medicine after having taken some of these courses and within their first year in college).

Furthermore, most have not had the opportunity to experience medicine through volunteering/working in a hospital (I'm sure some have, but this by far a minority). They have a mental picture of what it might be like (especially thanks to ER), but I'm not convinced that it is accurate. I'm not even convinced that I have an accurate idea, and I've done 1000+ hours of volunteer work...
QB]

We agree on somethings, but the fact that we don't understand what's like "under the pressure" is extremely condicending. Sure we don't have as "hard" as classes as a college stuedent or MS may have, but just in case you forgot we have just as many hours in the day as you. High school students, particularly the one's who want to be doctors, have extremely hard schedules for the age they are. I don't know about you but personally i get up @ 5 everyday for water polo practice, go to school unitl 2:30, play more water polo until 5 and and then start my hours of homework because of the multiple AP classes that are considered some of the hardest taught in my state, along with that we worry constantly about college and grades, and our friends are along for the ride with us, too. So high school is tough for us now and college will be tough for us too when our time comes.

As for voulenteering, i am voulnteering at my local hospital, even with the small amount of spare time i have. So i'm sure others are doing it some where else. IN all honesty, most high school students don't spend their free time in a hospital for fun, just the ones that know it's where they want to be in the future.

 

[rxfudd]

Originally posted by different strokes:
•Rxfudd, we cannot generalize by saying that people switch from medicine to something else because med is too difficult. Sometimes people switch to fields that are more challenging, less challenging or just as challenging. For me I would never switch from medicine to a grad program in mathematics because I find higher end math (e.g. partial differential equations part 1 and 2) to be rather difficult.

We can't go around saying that medicine is the most difficult career to pursue. IT IS AN INDIVIDUAL THING. I have a cousin who has a mathematics disability. He is a family practioner. But, he will admit that he could never do an engineering or a physics program. He still finds algebra difficult.•

Of course, that is the case sometimes. In my observations and experiences, however, about 90% of the people I have known who have gone from premed to something else have done so because the science courses were too difficult for them to excel in (to the degree where they could get into med school). I'm not sure why you assumed I was referring to everyone.

 

[rxfudd]

Originally posted by ducam:
•
We agree on somethings, but the fact that we don't understand what's like "under the pressure" is extremely condicending. Sure we don't have as "hard" as classes as a college stuedent or MS may have, but just in case you forgot we have just as many hours in the day as you. High school students, particularly the one's who want to be doctors, have extremely hard schedules for the age they are. I don't know about you but personally i get up @ 5 everyday for water polo practice, go to school unitl 2:30, play more water polo until 5 and and then start my hours of homework because of the multiple AP classes that are considered some of the hardest taught in my state, along with that we worry constantly about college and grades, and our friends are along for the ride with us, too. So high school is tough for us now and college will be tough for us too when our time comes.

As for voulenteering, i am voulnteering at my local hospital, even with the small amount of spare time i have. So i'm sure others are doing it some where else. IN all honesty, most high school students don't spend their free time in a hospital for fun, just the ones that know it's where they want to be in the future.•

I don't see why you find that condescending. I went to an extraordinarily difficuly high school as well, and I STILL found college to be difficult to manage at first (and I wasn't even premed yet). I'm sure your schedule is very busy. And it is rare (yet refreshing) to see a high school student who is actively volunteering at a hospital.

Like I said in my previous post, unless someone says "It is true in ALL cases that...", assume that someone means "the majority of the time". Few comments made in these forums are referred to in the "100% of cases" sense. Nonetheless, it is also very rare to hear any college student claim that they had it tougher in high school than in college. Most high school students who are interested in a career in medicine are competing with people who are not necessarily as motivated. And so the grades come somewhat easier than in college (assuming the student is motivated). In organic chem or genetics, about 50-60% of the class wants to go into medicine, and it gets pretty tough to beat the curve. That is the pressure I am referring to. And even then, the college grades become the grades that REALLY count (i.e. the ones that the med schools see). I got a couple C's in high school. No biggie, med schools will NEVER know that. Didn't keep me out of college. Yet, if I did the same thing now, I'd be at a huge disadvantage. So the need for high grades becomes that much more pertinent in college.

Listen, most MED STUDENTS aren't even sure what they specifically want to do. Until you actually do it, you just don't know. Sure, when I was in high school, I knew EXACTLY what I wanted - but starting with my first semester in college, it changed almost by the semester. Most high schools students I have talked with have a very poor concept of what college will be like (and again - this includes myself at the time. Who in the world can know what college will really be like? I know that in my freshman year of high school, it was a whole new world for me. College is very similar [even more so, some may say]).

 

[MikeS 78]

in rebuttal to cedric

1) I am not the only story.....I can provide you with about 15 other people.....this gist of the matter is that all things are never equal..thus you claim all along is falacious...there are alot more kids from harvard with awesome credentials than kids from the run of the mill state school...thus more get in....however people like yourself make the erroneous conclusion that is A and B are concominant events then A causes B.......I could talk for hours about why this A (going to a name school for undergrad) does not cause B (getting into med school)..nor does it cause the B of outperforming your peers once you get there

My thinking is that if youre good youre good....and if your not well going to a pressure cooker is more likely to weed you out than coast you into med school

My original statement..was intended to discourage some of the insanity of choosing a school to get you into med school.....as opposed to choosing one based on happiness, intellectual growth and maturation......I have met alot of people from hopkins who hated every minute of their 4 years and others who loved it there......the major dividing line was motive.....people who went there solely because it reaked of medical school mecca hated it with a passion

2) I too wanted to go to med school from high school......however in retrospect....I compare my reasoning ability and maturity levels then....and I feel I was not able to make a good decision about whether or not I really wanted to go through medical training and devote alot of my young life to medicine........as I grew and matured...my reasons changed dramtically.....and I did end up deciding to go through with it......and I truly think I made a good choice....however had my reasons been the ones I gave at age 18......I don't think I would have made it through 1st year

if indeed you claim as it seems to me you have, that your reasons then are the same as your reasons now (ie you were mature enough to devote 8-14 years of your 20's and 30's) then I pity you greatly....in that you missed out on a great opportunity to grow as an individual during your college years....and that you refuse to evaluate yourself objectively and state that you probably know more (and I am not referring to know more about the frank-starling relationship type of know) about things that you did at 16 or 18

this tends to be the fate of alot (by no means all but alot) of very bright people who focus young.......they lock themselves in the library and get caught in a sort of time capsule....

hence, it would be hypocracy for my to state that one can't decide to start exploring medicine as a possibility in high school....because I started to myself at that age....however I have yet to meet a high school kid who i felt was mature enough to grasp the realities of medical training.....Cedric I doubt you were an exception....but rather a correlary....the person who has no context of one's self as a dynamic being as opposed to the stationary unitheme that you claim to be

Finally, having majored in cultural studies in college, I really think its funny that someone is still using the "don't try to tell the overarching universal story" dialogue....its so 1989...if you'd like...I can email you a listing of some more up to date retorts that are more widely accepted as "game winning" rebuttals

Cedric....how's bout you and me schedule a 4th year sub-I together at UCSF....so I can show you what they's been learnin us at the old redneck college....afterwards we can drive down to Kern county and slop us some hogs.....because really thats all they learn ya at these second rate schools

 

[different strokes]

"Of course, that is the case sometimes. In my observations and experiences, however, about 90% of the people I have known who have gone from premed to something else have done so because the science courses were too difficult for them to excel in (to the degree where they could get into med school). I'm not sure why you assumed I was referring to everyone. "

Rxfudd,

In my case I have seen many people move on to what some may consider to be harder careers. One classmate felt she was wasting her talent by not pursing math and physics at the highest level. So, she left pre-med to do grad work in physics.

On the other hand, a woman flunked out of an engineering program after trying really hard. Medicine was her next interest. So, she switched to psychology and pre-med and did well. Now, she is a Med Student in my class.

 

[different strokes]

It is true that many high school people are not certain of what type of career they want. There is a woman in medical school who never finished high school. She got her G.E.D. and started out at the community college. Later, she transferred to a university and did everything she needed to do to pursue a career in medicine.

In high school I never thought about medicine. I wasn't even sure if I was going to go to college. Our high school was so crappy that we didn't even have AP courses to take. I made the decision to study medicine rather late in my life.

 

[Cobragirl]

Different Strokes, I AM that woman...you just described my road to medicine perfectly. GED, community college, university, med-school.

Anyway, my position on majors is that there ARE harder roads to take than medicine. I have friends doing grad work in genetics, chemistry, physics, math, etc...and I would HATE to be in their shoes! Even though I'm obviously smart enough to get into med-school, I'm the first to admit that I absolutely SUCK at math. I still can't do a quadratic equation in under 20 minutes...and don't even ask me about Calculus. The sad thing is that I got A's in ALL of my math classes, yet once over, I forgot EVERYTHING. I think my problem is that I was always allowed to use a calculator in college and with having weak basic math skills coming into college, I just never got comfortable doing math in my head. I'll probably spend my entire medical career running around with a little calculator in my pocket so I don't mess up dosage amounts! Sad.

The point is that although people can be absolutely brilliant at some things, other disiplines can be hard for that same person. To me, this doesn't show lack of intelligence, just a lack of training or more likely, interest. How many "humanities" majors (not ones going to medical school) have you met that said that they HATE science, or that they just didn't "get" biology?. Personally, I've met quite a few....and of course my reaction is sheer wonder at how someone could NOT like / understand science / biology / chemistry / physics, since I love them and understand the concepts so easily. I had an interest in engineering / physics myself, but after struggling through algebra, I knew the advanced math I'd have to take would always be a hinderance to me. I'm quite sure I could have muddled through even the hardest math classes, but the time and effort I would have had to put forth, just to get a C, probably would have been extrodinary. I think that's why we hear so many stories about people dropping out of engineering/math...not necessarily because they COULDN'T do it, but because trying to do it would have been a monumental effort. Sometimes, other disiplines just come naturally (like biological sciences did with me) It's the same for people that go from biological sciences into math/physics...their brains just work "differently". Maybe they are better with spacial and/or abstract concepts than biologically oriented people. I'm good spacially, but my abstract thinking sometimes leaves a bit to desire (I still can't get over LETTERS standing for numbers! haha! )

Any other brilliant non-math people out there????

 

[different strokes]

For some people visio-spatial related courses such as math, chemistry, geology etc come easier than courses that revolve around verbal reasoning skills. And Visa Versa.

As far as intelligence, on an intelligence test they test for a verbal I.Q. and a spatial reasoning I.Q. These two scores are added together to get a person's whole I.Q. If the verbal or spatial I.Q. is ten or more points higher than the other, the person is considered to have a learning disability. (I used to do neuropsych testing)

My cousin who is a family practice doctor is considered to have a learning disorder for math. His spatial scores were over 20 points below his verbal scores. He has dyscalculia.

He is a very bright person and a very good doctor. But, his strengths are not in math, physics and even architecture. After he received a diagnosis of a spatial learning disorder, he understood why he found architecture difficult as he attempted this in his undergrad years. But, he found history, biology, english and other humanities courses to be very easy.

So, I agree the difficulty of academic disciplines is an individual thing.

 

[DocHunter9]

I didnt bother to read through the entire post but I do have a personal experience that relates to the high school student issue.

When I was a young recruiter about 7 years ago, I met a young girl who was a junior in high school at the time. I was doing a presentation on Army opportunities and part of that presentation is asking each of the students what goals they had for their future. This particular young lady wanted to be a Doctor, and when she said I thought the very same thing you said. No way can she know what she is in for. Well to make a long story short that young lady from Vici, Oklahoma (population 200 max) was accepted to medical school and selected for the HPSP last year. (no I wasnt her recruiter shucks!!! but she did tell her recruiter to tell me HI.)

 

[dude7]

the best post / thread i have probably ever read on this thing.

 

[Nefertari]

Have noticed lots of new faces @ here posting those eternal questions, so i'm resurrecting this thread since it's such a trip. Btw, take it w/ grain of salt/pepper, as w/ all things on sdn.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Newdoc2002
Have you not gotten over the fact that there are people with numbers, activities and compassion that rivals yours? Does it hurt that Johnny Overalls from Midwestern A&M in Corn-country, IA got into med school and will have the same initials after his/her name?

Ahem. Iowa consistently has the highest SAT average IN THE NATION. These folks may be farmers, but they are bright and learned, and they take education very seriously.

I'm just passing through on my way out west, but I've enjoyed my five years here. Iowans are decent, intellegent people. I'm proud and happy to have spent time with them .

(and I just hate to see 'em maligned, even in fun....)

ws

 

[Tweetie_bird]

Due to popular demand, this thread is being moved to PreAllo because people feel that is where it actually belongs.

 

[poloace]

cedric-
amen on the california bit. i hate my residency in cali... it does absolutely nothing for me. i may as well be a midget applying to play in the NBA. go mugsy bogues!

p

 

[SM-UCLA tech]

Cedricw.....USC is not a "less competitive" school!

I've gone to both and I actually find ucla easier.


by the way...for you info...since you've done extensive research.....USC happens to be ranked in the top 35 academic schools in the nation.


sorry...... I had to vent

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by womansurg
Ahem. Iowa consistently has the highest SAT average IN THE NATION. These folks may be farmers, but they are bright and learned, and they take education very seriously.

Well there is a confound for that someone mentioned to me once (hearsay, so keep that in mind)... In Iowa, only people who are pretty seriously about college take the SAT. In other states, including I think North Carolina, which has pretty low averages, almost everyone is encouraged to take the SAT. If mostly the people motivated to go to college are taking the test, of course the scores are going to be higher in Iowa.

 

[exigente chica]

Originally posted by rxfudd
Although I disagree with the immaturity issue, I definitely think that high school students have no concept of what the road to being a doctor really is. And even if they do know, they haven't experienced much of it. I don't think people in high school really understand what it's like to be under the pressures of taking organic, bio, and physics, and tedious electives while working a job, being active on campus, having a social life, etc, ALL while maintaining great grades in EVERYTHING. Sure, you hear about the difficulties. But it's really something you have to experience (it is noteworthy that most people decided NOT to go into medicine after having taken some of these courses and within their first year in college).

I think that this is a very wrong statement. Just because u may have been imature in HS does not mean that this is true of all other students. I did know long before HS that I wanted to become a doctor, I knew what it what take, what I had to do and the right people to talk to. I was very focused and I must say that I have done a good job so far! I may be the exception, but I beleive that there are others similiar out there. BE careful what premises you make about others and thier motivation.

 

[Lebesgue]

Again people in the real-world may not care about your major, but med school admissions committees do. If I walk up to a random person on the street and say, "Hey random person, I have a B.A. in Mathematics," he will undoubtedly reply (if we're in New York City, that is) "F*&^ing freak, get the f*&^ away from me before I beat the $hit out of you." If I were to tell an admissions committee person that, considering there are fewer than 300 applicants (or matriculants) with B.A.s in Mathematics, I might be seen as unique. Furthermore because Mathematics is considered a more challenging major than, say, Philosophy, a math major's chances are a bit better (everything else being equal).

I have a B.S. in math, should I stay away from NY...?

 

[2badr]

I have to agree with a lot of the points made by cobragirl.I have never been a fan of history,sociology or government.In fact they were actually my "B" grades in high school!
Well rounded does not apply only to academia.I do like the biological sciences,hence the major.But I am also a soloist in weddings,volunteer in a summer skills program,teach and work with various outreach program at my church.I am working along with other family members to develope a program for senior citizens.
I hope we do not get to the point where science majors become a thing of the past.If you are doing something that you enjoy,it should all work out in the end.
Just my $2.34 worth.