A little honesty....

[helpme.impoor]

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Hi all,

I am finally seriously considering applying for medical school (after ten years of wanting to!).
To go forward with the application I am going to have to take on some serious debt and really put myself and my husband through some tough times. Right now he is making just enough for us to cover the bills (we own a home and have a mortgage) and he is 100% supportive of me, but of course finances are all around hard.

So anyway.. I am unsure of my chances and hoping for some objective advice and opinions!

I am 24, I graduated in Spring 2014 from undergrad with a B.Sc in health sciences and psych (with a 3.2 gpa). Due to family reasons (and being too young to know how to handle college), I did poorly in a lot of my science courses, but turned it around and re-took some classes to get up to a 3.2. So my last half of college my grades were typically A/B (some Cs). Nothing special.
In spring 2015, I went back to the same school to retake some courses. I re did A&P I, organic I, general chem II and took a human development course. I got A's in all four. I then applied to graduate school and now I am in my first year at NYU going for my MPH (which I'll have done in spring 18). I just finished finals for my first semester and still waiting for a couple assignment grades but it is looking like I have A's in all the courses (epi, public health biology, social determinants of health and environmental health).
I also have three years experience working as a nursing assistant, 1 year of medical receptionist work and 1 year of case management work in a mental health clinic.

As for the typical pre-reqs:
Bio 1- (retook) A
Bio 2- C
Chem I- (retook) A
Chem II- B-
Physics I- B-
Precalc- (retook) A
Statistics- B
A&P I- (retook) A
A&P II- C+
Rhetoric/writing: part I: B-/part II: A
**other science courses I completed: Genetics (C), Immunology (A), Quantitative chemical analysis (B-), Physiological psychology--this was for biology credit, not psych- (A-), medical microbiology (C), pharmacology (A), Ecology (B)

So what I think I need is to retake Bio 2 because I took it in spring 2011-- would they even still accept that since it's almost 6 years old?
Take Orgo II and Physics II (I've never taken them). Take biochemistry (thoughts? some med schools recommend this, and if I do well it will be a great addition). And also take an advanced microbiology course (instead of taking microbio over again, just do the advanced course and get a good grade).

My (tentative) plan is to take advanced micro this winter, take two courses in the spring (while doing full time MPH classes), and then take two more in the summer. I would plan to take the MCAT sometime in May or June. I'm a little confused about the timeline of admissions, the understanding I am getting is that applications open around June and then early admissions is August, and the deadline in October.

Thoughts? Any advice or thoughts would be so much appreciated!
Thank you all!!

 

[gamieg]

congratulations on your journey! it's great to have family support.

I'd recommend applying for both MD and DO when the time comes. apply broadly, apply early, and nab a DO letter if possible. especially for DO schools, grade replacement is forgiving and you could continue to retake courses (get As) if you want to boost your GPAs as high as possible.

I recommend taking biochemistry. it was a pretty hefty subject on my mcat and it's good to get your feet wet.

the application cycle begins in may-june. usually aacomas for osteopathic programs opens in may to allow you to complete the application and then submission starts late may-early june. amcas for allopathic schools is similar although a little later by a few days. after your primaries are verified, schools will send you secondaries if you meet their cutoffs and they're interested in you (some are automatic). complete those asap, then wait for interviews. rule of thumb is apply early (first day), turn around secondaries within a couple days and no later than two weeks, and get as many eyeballs on your writing as possible.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I recommend taking biochemistry. it was a pretty hefty subject on my mcat and it's good to get your feet wet.

It's becoming a requirement for more schools now as well, MD and DO.

 

[backside_attack]

Don't take the MCAT too lightly. You say you're taking micro + a full MPH courseload and planning to take the MCAT in a few months. You should ideally take the April or May test to get the score by June --> you'll know where you stand a chance/where to not apply based on that score, so it helps you save money. Plus you don't want to submit your app and then get your score after submitting only to see that it's a subpar score, meaning you'd need to re-take it and reapply.

Key points:
1. Reapplication is another hurdle to jump. It's a harder barrier to admissions than your first time around. I recommend searching this site for the plight of the reapplicant to understand what I'm talking about.
2. MCAT prep should be taken super seriously. Based on your science grades (especially the improvements) I think you are intelligent enough, but you will need to work hard to improve your science background. PLUS you now need biochem for the new MCAT which you may not have known before. I took the new MCAT while taking Phys II and Org II but I wouldn't recommend more than 2 courses. I'd say delay a year and take the MCAT when you're more prepared (Sept, or even next January) but if you aren't willing to do that, can you cut back on your MPH courses and take biochem somehow?

 

[helpme.impoor]

Don't take the MCAT too lightly. You say you're taking micro + a full MPH courseload and planning to take the MCAT in a few months. You should ideally take the April or May test to get the score by June --> you'll know where you stand a chance/where to not apply based on that score, so it helps you save money. Plus you don't want to submit your app and then get your score after submitting only to see that it's a subpar score, meaning you'd need to re-take it and reapply.

Key points:
1. Reapplication is another hurdle to jump. It's a harder barrier to admissions than your first time around. I recommend searching this site for the plight of the reapplicant to understand what I'm talking about.
2. MCAT prep should be taken super seriously. Based on your science grades (especially the improvements) I think you are intelligent enough, but you will need to work hard to improve your science background. PLUS you now need biochem for the new MCAT which you may not have known before. I took the new MCAT while taking Phys II and Org II but I wouldn't recommend more than 2 courses. I'd say delay a year and take the MCAT when you're more prepared (Sept, or even next January) but if you aren't willing to do that, can you cut back on your MPH courses and take biochem somehow?

Thank you so much, I think you are right that I should delay a year, take physics II and orgo II this spring ( & advanced micro in the winter), and finish up biochem in the summer then start focusing full time on the MCAT.
Do you find that med schools have a limit on how long ago your science courses can be taken? I haven't seen any schools that have mentioned that.

The more I research the more important the MCAT scores seem to be. I took GRE and did very well so I'm hopeful!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Thank you so much, I think you are right that I should delay a year, take physics II and orgo II this spring ( & advanced micro in the winter), and finish up biochem in the summer then start focusing full time on the MCAT.
Do you find that med schools have a limit on how long ago your science courses can be taken? I haven't seen any schools that have mentioned that.

The more I research the more important the MCAT scores seem to be. I took GRE and did very well so I'm hopeful!

Obviously the more recent the better, but if they don't have a specific requirement and you have recent prereqs with good grades and a good MCAT, I don't see how having a few older ones would hurt you.

 

[helpme.impoor]

congratulations on your journey! it's great to have family support.

I'd recommend applying for both MD and DO when the time comes. apply broadly, apply early, and nab a DO letter if possible. especially for DO schools, grade replacement is forgiving and you could continue to retake courses (get As) if you want to boost your GPAs as high as possible.

I recommend taking biochemistry. it was a pretty hefty subject on my mcat and it's good to get your feet wet.

the application cycle begins in may-june. usually aacomas for osteopathic programs opens in may to allow you to complete the application and then submission starts late may-early june. amcas for allopathic schools is similar although a little later by a few days. after your primaries are verified, schools will send you secondaries if you meet their cutoffs and they're interested in you (some are automatic). complete those asap, then wait for interviews. rule of thumb is apply early (first day), turn around secondaries within a couple days and no later than two weeks, and get as many eyeballs on your writing as possible.

Thank you so much for replying! I am definitely also considering applying for DO programs. What do you mean by DO letter?

When they calculate GPA, will they calculate all grades overall or do they drop the grades of the courses I retook?

 

[helpme.impoor]

Obviously the more recent the better, but if they don't have a specific requirement and you have recent prereqs with good grades and a good MCAT, I don't see how having a few older ones would hurt you.

I was surprised because a lot of other programs (PA, nursing, etc) require that the science courses be no longer than 5 years old. But I guess it shows on the MCAT if you are at the right level. Do you have any recommendations of what I should do on top of classes and MCAT that would boost my application? Hoping to get some research experience..

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Research experience is good, but seems to be exaggerated by premeds regarding its importance. @Goro likes to mention a survey of adcoms that showed research was only minimal to medium importance. Some experience is good to show that you know how science works, but anything else is gravy.

I see you have a good amount of clinical experience. Do you have any non-clinical volunteering? I didn't see that in your OP, and it's pretty important. I'd get started on that immediately. There are plenty of orgs you can work with.

Personally, I volunteered with my church for about two years before moving, and I've been volunteering with Meals on Wheels for a while now since moving back. If you have a church, that's a good route. Otherwise check out MoW. It's awesome. I've also seen some people coach Special Olympics teams, which would be cool if you're into sports. The important thing is to pick something you can get behind so that you'll really commit to it and be able to talk about it at interviews on a level deeper than "yeah I went there and did stuff for an hour a week."

There are tons of other orgs: Habitat for Humanity, homeless shelters, etc. Google is your friend.

 

[helpme.impoor]

Research experience is good, but seems to be exaggerated by premeds regarding its importance. @Goro likes to mention a survey of adcoms that showed research was only minimal to medium importance. Some experience is good to show that you know how science works, but anything else is gravy.

I see you have a good amount of clinical experience. Do you have any non-clinical volunteering? I didn't see that in your OP, and it's pretty important. I'd get started on that immediately. There are plenty of orgs you can work with.

Personally, I volunteered with my church for about two years before moving, and I've been volunteering with Meals on Wheels for a while now since moving back. If you have a church, that's a good route. Otherwise check out MoW. It's awesome. I've also seen some people coach Special Olympics teams, which would be cool if you're into sports. The important thing is to pick something you can get behind so that you'll really commit to it and be able to talk about it at interviews on a level deeper than "yeah I went there and did stuff for an hour a week."

There are tons of other orgs: Habitat for Humanity, homeless shelters, etc. Google is your friend.

I do, but its a little old (red cross in high school, AIDS project in 2014)
My focus is international health, I studied in Greece and did focus on global health studies while there, and in 2014 I taught English in China. My MPH is in community and international health so I can probably find something good through NYU with a focus in that international health so I look like I have a good idea of what I would do with an md degree. Or would you recommend doing something more broad so I can show I have a well rounded experience in health care?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I do, but its a little old (red cross in high school, AIDS project in 2014)
My focus is international health, I studied in Greece and did focus on global health studies while there, and in 2014 I taught English in China. My MPH is in community and international health so I can probably find something good through NYU with a focus in that international health so I look like I have a good idea of what I would do with an md degree. Or would you recommend doing something more broad so I can show I have a well rounded experience in health care?

You want something that is non-clinical. Like serving people food who can't get out to get it themselves (Meals on Wheels) or coaching special needs kids (Special Olympics). Something that is unrelated to healthcare and doesn't really gain you anything other than feeling good and experience. Doing stuff through your degree or for money doesn't really count. It doesn't take that huge of a commitment to do these things, and if you find one you like, you'll stick with it (which looks much better than some scattershot volunteerism).

 

[helpme.impoor]

It's becoming a requirement for more schools now as well, MD and DO.

You want something that is non-clinical. Like serving people food who can't get out to get it themselves (Meals on Wheels) or coaching special needs kids (Special Olympics). Something that is unrelated to healthcare and doesn't really gain you anything other than feeling good and experience. Doing stuff through your degree or for money doesn't really count. It doesn't take that huge of a commitment to do these things, and if you find one you like, you'll stick with it (which looks much better than some scattershot volunteerism).

Good point, I didn't think of it like that. Thank you!

 

[Goro]

With all deference, it is my learned colleague gonnif who posts those survey results.

Research experience is good, but seems to be exaggerated by premeds regarding its importance. @Goro likes to mention a survey of adcoms that showed research was only minimal to medium importance. Some experience is good to show that you know how science works, but anything else is gravy.

I see you have a good amount of clinical experience. Do you have any non-clinical volunteering? I didn't see that in your OP, and it's pretty important. I'd get started on that immediately. There are plenty of orgs you can work with.

Personally, I volunteered with my church for about two years before moving, and I've been volunteering with Meals on Wheels for a while now since moving back. If you have a church, that's a good route. Otherwise check out MoW. It's awesome. I've also seen some people coach Special Olympics teams, which would be cool if you're into sports. The important thing is to pick something you can get behind so that you'll really commit to it and be able to talk about it at interviews on a level deeper than "yeah I went there and did stuff for an hour a week."

There are tons of other orgs: Habitat for Humanity, homeless shelters, etc. Google is your friend.

 

[esob]

DO will do grade replacement but at 3.2 you don't have much chance at MD schools unless you annihilate the MCAT.

 

[helpme.impoor]

DO will do grade replacement but at 3.2 you don't have much chance at MD schools unless you annihilate the MCAT.

That GPA does not factor in the 4 A's I got in science courses post grad, and also does not take into account my 4.0 from NYU. Hoping that will help make a difference.

Oh don't worry, I'm going to slaughter the mcat.XD

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

With all deference, it is my learned colleague gonnif who posts those survey results.

I think you referenced it once, and ever since I just link them to you now.

 

[helpme.impoor]

MD splits retakes, so your current GPA is no better than 3.4. This is a low GPA to apply with as white or asian - it will get autoscreened if no 90% MCAT. Its OK if certain races of hispanic but not others. Its good if african.

well **** me then

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That GPA does not factor in the 4 A's I got in science courses post grad, and also does not take into account my 4.0 from NYU. Hoping that will help make a difference.

Oh don't worry, I'm going to slaughter the mcat.XD

Everyone thinks they're going to slaughter the MCAT. I hope you're actually preparing.

 

[helpme.impoor]

Everyone thinks they're going to slaughter the MCAT. I hope you're actually preparing.

haha a little sarcasm. but i honestly do very well in tests (did extremely well on the gre, only reason I crawled into nyu) and I am taking your advice in delaying a year. I have been doing the practice questions on khan and doing well in the critical/reasoning, biology, organ systems, cells, etc. I definitely need to take the second physics, orgo and biochem before approaching it, and then use that other 8 months to just study day and night.

I"ve already attended school in europe (spend a lot of time there), I see a lot of people saying to try overseas medical schools- are these easier to get into (europe, not caribbean) ?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

haha a little sarcasm. but i honestly do very well in tests (did extremely well on the gre, only reason I crawled into nyu) and I am taking your advice in delaying a year. I have been doing the practice questions on khan and doing well in the critical/reasoning, biology, organ systems, cells, etc. I definitely need to take the second physics, orgo and biochem before approaching it, and then use that other 8 months to just study day and night.

I"ve already attended school in europe (spend a lot of time there), I see a lot of people saying to try overseas medical schools- are these easier to get into (europe, not caribbean) ?

The general consensus is that you should go to medical school in the country you want to practice in. Unless you're planning on trying to practice in Europe, don't go to med school there. Even with a killer MCAT, you might have a bit of a fight for MD schools here, but you definitely have a good shot at DO, especially if you take advantage of grade replacement.

Bottom line, if you put in the work, you can likely get in somewhere here. Do NOT go abroad unless you want to practice there. The successs stories are the exception, not the rule.

 

[helpme.impoor]

The general consensus is that you should go to medical school in the country you want to practice in. Unless you're planning on trying to practice in Europe, don't go to med school there. Even with a killer MCAT, you might have a bit of a fight for MD schools here, but you definitely have a good shot at DO, especially if you take advantage of grade replacement.

Bottom line, if you put in the work, you can likely get in somewhere here. Do NOT go abroad unless you want to practice there. The successs stories are the exception, not the rule.

ok good to know. I know little about DO programs, maybe that is a better track to go for.
It is definitely scary to dive in and take additional classes, pay for mcat course and test and sacrifice employment and then after all that not get into any programs..

 

[gamieg]

Thank you so much for replying! I am definitely also considering applying for DO programs. What do you mean by DO letter?

When they calculate GPA, will they calculate all grades overall or do they drop the grades of the courses I retook?

DO letter of recommendation from shadowing an osteopathic physician. many osteopathic programs highly recommend these and while they often accept ones from MDs, DO is definitely preferred.

AACOMAS does grade replacement for equivalent courses while AMCAS averages retakes. both will require all transcripts and coursework to be entered so schools can see all grades, retakes or not.

 

[Goro]

It's fine for MD

MD splits retakes, so your current GPA is no better than 3.4. This is a low GPA to apply with as white or asian - it will get autoscreened if no 90% MCAT. Its OK if certain races of hispanic but not others. Its good if african.

 

[helpme.impoor]

DO letter of recommendation from shadowing an osteopathic physician. many osteopathic programs highly recommend these and while they often accept ones from MDs, DO is definitely preferred.

AACOMAS does grade replacement for equivalent courses while AMCAS averages retakes. both will require all transcripts and coursework to be entered so schools can see all grades, retakes or not.

what is difference in aacomas and amcas?
(sorry for my ignorance..)

 

[helpme.impoor]

I know that they will look at my undergrad gpa, but will they take my graduate gpa into account too? (no matter what I do plan on completing this MPH program by next year)

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

ok good to know. I know little about DO programs, maybe that is a better track to go for.
It is definitely scary to dive in and take additional classes, pay for mcat course and test and sacrifice employment and then after all that not get into any programs..

Definitely look into DO schools. It has its advantages and disadvantages, but ultimately you are a doctor. If being a doctor is more important to you than being a pediatric neurosurgical dermoncologist, than DO is not a bad option.

I know that they will look at my undergrad gpa, but will they take my graduate gpa into account too? (no matter what I do plan on completing this MPH program by next year)

Graduate GPA is not really looked at like uGPA. Graduate schools tend to inflate their GPAs, and MPHs especially are often looked at as a way of trying to make up for a poor uGPA. Retaking any C/D/F undergrad courses will be much more beneficial for you.

 

[helpme.impoor]

Definitely look into DO schools. It has its advantages and disadvantages, but ultimately you are a doctor. If being a doctor is more important to you than being a pediatric neurosurgical dermoncologist, than DO is not a bad option.



Graduate GPA is not really looked at like uGPA. Graduate schools tend to inflate their GPAs, and MPHs especially are often looked at as a way of trying to make up for a poor uGPA. Retaking any C/D/F undergrad courses will be much more beneficial for you.

I can assure you that an MPH is used for more than people who are just trying to boost their gpa

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I can assure you that an MPH is used for more than people who are just trying to boost their gpa

Not to adcoms. At least not the ones on SDN. More than one has said that adcoms view MPHs as attempts to make up for a low uGPA. Take that as you will. Doing your MPH doesn't preclude you from retaking undergrad courses though.

 

[helpme.impoor]

Not to adcoms. At least not the ones on SDN. More than one has said that adcoms view MPHs as attempts to make up for a low uGPA. Take that as you will. Doing your MPH doesn't preclude you from retaking undergrad courses though.

most people who go to mph programs actually want to become public health workers, and never apply to medical school

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

most people who go to mph programs actually want to become public health workers, and never apply to medical school

But you ARE applying to med school, so adcoms' opinions should matter to you. Be ready to explain why you did an MPH in a way that convinces them it wasn't for a GPA boost.

 

[helpme.impoor]

But you ARE applying to med school, so adcoms' opinions should matter to you. Be ready to explain why you did an MPH in a way that convinces them it wasn't for a GPA boost.

I'm not talking in terms of med school, I'm just saying don't say an mph degree means nothing

 

[backside_attack]

I'm not talking in terms of med school, I'm just saying don't say an mph degree means nothing

We all know that. That's not what the people trying to help you are saying. They're saying don't count on it getting you farther than an applicant without an MPH. It's essentially an extracurricular because they can't cross compare that GPA with students who didn't do grad work.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm not talking in terms of med school, I'm just saying don't say an mph degree means nothing

No one said that. I said multiple times that adcoms view MPHs as covers for low uGPAs. That has nothing to do with what happens outside admissions.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't understand why people do an MPH before attending/completing medical school (unless you intend to work with the MPH for a few years before going to medical school). You will forget all that knowledge you have acquired from the program by the time you are done with medical school. It makes more sense to either apply to an MD/MPH or DO/MPH program or complete an MPH program after you have attained your MD/DO degree

I'm sure some people think it's an easy way to make up for a lower GPA, since the courses are generally not very rigorous. But one of my physician friends did his MPH first and said it helped a lot with everything from interviews to clinicals and residency. So who knows?

 

[gamieg]

what is difference in aacomas and amcas?
(sorry for my ignorance..)

AACOMAS = centralized application system for osteopathic/DO schools
AMCAS = centralized application system for allopathic/MD schools

you can find more information regarding both here (and google is your best friend):
http://www.aacom.org/become-a-doctor/applying
https://students-residents.aamc.org/applying-medical-school/article/apply-to-med-school-with-amcas/