a lot of research, no pubs

[lacrossegirl420]

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how is this viewed by research powerhouses?

 

[Goro]

Do you have anything to show for your research productivity?

Publications from pre-meds are actually rare or at best, uncommon.

Your lack of productivity would probably be far more serious for MD PHD programs.

 

[lacrossegirl420]

@Goro : pmed you, thanks!

 

[Goro]

@LizzyM
@gyngyn
@lord999
@Moko
@Maimonides1


What say you, oh wise ones???

 

[gyngyn]

We care more that you understand the principles of hypothesis-driven research (and the role you play in it) than the luck involved in undergraduate publication.

 

[Goro]

We care more that you understand the principles of hypothesis-driven research (and the role you play in it) than the luck involved in undergraduate publication.

To follow up on this:
The wise DrMidlife on research: “you've preferably had some exposure to research so you can be convinced that Wakefield used malicious dirtbag methods and is not the savior of the world's children.”

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

how is this viewed by research powerhouses? have very strong LOR's from all experiences, know what I did very well, and have some awards for it. will this be viewed as lack of research productivity or as commitment to research? stats and other activities are strong (LM>78 balanced, good clinical, etc.).

Some schools like Stanford may care, but all adcoms say it won't have a big impact. Are you getting IIs from research power houses?

 

[LizzyM]

You'll be one step below those who have pubs but far from "out of the running". Why so much effort without taking the work to its intended conclusion (new knowledge shared with the scientific community)? 2000 hours over how many months/years. One year full-time is different that contributing part time over 3-4 years in terms of the team's productivity.

 

[KnightDoc]

Some schools like Stanford may care, but all adcoms say it won't have a big impact. Are you getting IIs from research power houses?

We care more that you understand the principles of hypothesis-driven research (and the role you play in it) than the luck involved in undergraduate publication.

This^^^^^ is why it doesn't matter. Although you just refuse to concede the point, no matter how many times adcoms and surveys tell you otherwise, the simple truth is pubs are a reflection on the PI, NOT the UG test tube washer, and adcoms totally get this, even if some parents don't!!!!!

To answer OP's question, no, the lack of pubs is absolutely not an application killer. On the other hand, there IS the law of diminishing returns, and there is a point well short of 2,000 hours where additional hours with no production to show for it probably does nothing for an application, and the time could probably be better spent doing other things.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

This^^^^^ is why it doesn't matter. Although you just refuse to concede the point, no matter how many times adcoms and surveys tell you otherwise, the simple truth is pubs are a reflection on the PI, NOT the UG test tube washer, and adcoms totally get this, even if some parents don't!!!!!

To answer OP's question, no, the lack of pubs is absolutely not an application killer. On the other hand, there IS the law of diminishing returns, and there is a point well short of 2,000 hours where additional hours with no production to show for it probably does nothing for an application, and the time could probably be better spent doing other things.

I was waiting for you to you come back to me on that I never said lack of paper is an application killer but may put you over the edge at schools like Stanford. The reason I mentioned Stanford is they explicitly asks for PEER REVIEWED PUBLICATIONS and ORCID ID. So it's not about not believing adcoms or surveys.

Also, no premed will wash test tubes for 2000 hr with a hope for PI to include them on a paper!!! Yes, publication are reflection on the PI but if you have 2000 hrs of research but no paper you may get asked during the interview. Already happened to my kid this cycle (at a T10 school).

 

[Maimonides1]

As much we value published research.., if you can show (write and express) your depth and passion in doing your research overtime.., that will suffice and will not hurt your chances for consideration as long you have a well rounded and balanced application to show and stand out above the rest!

 

[DNAJB6]

You'll be one step below those who have pubs but far from "out of the running". Why so much effort without taking the work to its intended conclusion (new knowledge shared with the scientific community)? 2000 hours over how many months/years. One year full-time is different that contributing part time over 3-4 years in terms of the team's productivity.

What percentage of pre-med medical school applicants have 1 publication, 2-5 publications, and >5 publications?

 

[KnightDoc]

What percentage of pre-med medical school applicants have 1 publication, 2-5 publications, and >5 publications?

I think the more relevant question is what percent have anything in high impact journals (I think I read somewhere on SDN that the number was around 5% at top schools). My understanding is that while some applicants focus on raw numbers, publications in other than a handful of high impact journals have a "low impact" on adcoms, and more of them are meaningless to an application.

 

[KnightDoc]

I was waiting for you to you come back to me on that I never said lack of paper is an application killer but may put you over the edge at schools like Stanford. The reason I mentioned Stanford is they explicitly asks for PEER REVIEWED PUBLICATIONS and ORCID ID. So it's not about not believing adcoms or surveys.

Also, no premed will wash test tubes for 2000 hr with a hope for PI to include them on a paper!!! Yes, publication are reflection on the PI but if you have 2000 hrs of research but no paper you may get asked during the interview. Already happened to my kid this cycle (at a T10 school).

Yeah, I was being sarcastic with my test tube comment (it meant that publications are driven by the PI, not by whatever contribution a UG is making to the project -- if this were not the case, the PI would be working for the UG! 🙂), but you should rethink what you said. I ASSURE you that there are a VAST number of premeds who would wash test tubes for 2,000 hours to be able to tell Stanford that they were published. Probably including your kid, if lack of publications is the Achilles heel in his application.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I think the more relevant question is what percent have anything in high impact journals (I think I read somewhere on SDN that the number was around 5% at top schools). My understanding is that while some applicants focus on raw numbers, publications in other than a handful of high impact journals have a "low impact" on adcoms, and more of them are meaningless to an application.

Yes, 5% is the number mentioned by adcoms/attendings/consultants. As per high impact journals, medical journals focused on specific specialty tends to have lower IF.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yeah, I was being sarcastic with my test tube comment (it meant that publications are driven by the PI, not by whatever contribution a UG is making to the project -- if this were not the case, the PI would be working for the UG! 🙂), but you should rethink what you said. I ASSURE you that there are a VAST number of premeds who would wash test tubes for 2,000 hours to be able to tell Stanford that they were published. Probably including your kid, if lack of publications is the Achilles heel in his application.

I know you are being sarcastic but it's insulting to lot of premeds (like my son) who enjoy research. I know publications are driven by PI's timelines and expectations not what lab members want or medical school admissions timelines. It's naïve to think Stanford interviewers can't figure out between 2000 hrs of test tube washing and 2000 hours of quality research. I never said lack of publications Achilles heel is my son's application since he has publications but not for 2000 hrs of research. He is actually having better success with research powerhouses than other schools this cycle and was explicitly asked how far he is with his first author paper.

 

[LizzyM]

What percentage of pre-med medical school applicants have 1 publication, 2-5 publications, and >5 publications?

I don't have that data. I do know that my school considers:
any publication, or even a senior thesis> some independent work without pubication >technician >dishwasher

 

[KnightDoc]

I know you are being sarcastic but it's insulting to lot of premeds (like my son) who enjoy research. I know publications are driven by PI's timelines and expectations not what lab members want or medical school admissions timelines. It's naïve to think Stanford interviewers can't figure out between 2000 hrs of test tube washing and 2000 hours of quality research. I never said lack of publications Achilles heel is my son's application since he has publications but not for 2000 hrs of research. He is actually having better success with research powerhouses than other schools this cycle and was explicitly asked how far he is with his first author paper.

So, you are proving the point -- PUBLICATIONS ARE NICE, BUT DON'T MATTER, SINCE THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QUALITY OF THE APPLICANT'S WORK AND ARE NEITHER DRIVEN NOR CONTROLLED BY THE APPLICANT!!!!!!! They don't matter for your son, who is doing very well at research powerhouses despite not having publications tied to his research, so just who do they matter for????? The test tube washer???? 😎

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

So, you are proving the point -- PUBLICATIONS ARE NICE, BUT DON'T MATTER!!!!!!!

Publications do matter but for select few it could be the cake but for most it's the icing on the cake 🙂 Again if they don't matter why do they ask about in the secondary or in the interviews?

 

[KnightDoc]

Publications do matter but for select few it could be the cake but for most it's the icing on the cake 🙂 Again if they don't matter why do they ask about in the secondary or in the interviews?

Yeah, they matter --that's why 95% of matriculants at top schools don't have them, and why your son is doing well without them.

Makes perfect sense that something totally outside the applicant's control would matter, but only for a select few. Why don't you get this?? -- It's not the cake for anyone!!! If it were, far more than 5% would have it, because they would need it, because it would matter. It's a nice to have. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yeah, they matter --that's why 95% of matriculants at top schools don't have them, and why your son is doing well without them.

Makes perfect sense that something totally outside the applicant's control would matter, but only for a select few. Why don't you get this?? -- It's not the cake for anyone!!! If it were, far more than 5% would have it, because they would need it, because it would matter. It's a nice to have. Nothing more, nothing less.

Who said 95% at top schools don't have them? 5% given is for all schools combined. Unless you have the stats for research T10 , I doubt only 5% of Stanford/UCSF/JHU/Harvard/Penn admits have a paper.

 

[KnightDoc]

Who said 95% at top schools don't have them? 5% given is for all schools combined. Unless you have the stats for research T10 , I doubt only 5% of Stanford/UCSF/JHU/Harvard/Penn admits have a paper.

I think it was @LizzyM. To be fair, it was only referring to high impact journals, which, if I'm understanding it correctly, are the only ones they really care about. Again, why are you arguing both sides? If they are important, how can your son possibly be doing well without them???? And, what would be the rationale for them to be so important when they have everything to do with the PIs, and nothing to do with the assistants/applicants?

Could it be because the schools care about the substance of what he is doing, and not whether he was lucky enough to connect with a PI connected enough to be published in a high impact journal during the time that would be relevant to your son's application??? Do you honestly think your son is the exception and not the rule???

Sure, just about everyone at top schools has some paper somewhere. Again, if it's not a top pub, why would a top school care??? Just about anyone could get something published somewhere.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I think it was @LizzyM. To be fair, it was only referring to high impact journals, which, if I'm understanding it correctly, are the only ones they really care about. Again, why are you arguing both sides? If they are important, how can your son possibly be doing well without them???? And, what would be the rationale for them to be so important when they have everything to do with the PIs, and nothing to do with the assistants/applicants?

Sure, everyone at top schools has a paper somewhere. Again, if it's not a top pub, why would a top school care??? Just about anyone could get something published somewhere.

I am trying to argue against generic statements from you 🙂 yes, publication timeliness are impacted by PI's time but also depends on assistants/applicants completion of work. I never said all publications are equal. being 4th author on 10 papers by washing test tubes is not same as one first author paper. My guess (since I am not an adcom) for my son's success so far is his stats, type and quality of his research (independent project) and very strong LORs (that's the feedback he has so far) but like everyone else, at this stage there is no pattern for his IIs. In conclusion, all you and I can do is speculate since we both never involved in actual admissions process 🤣🤣🤣

 

[KnightDoc]

I am trying to argue against generic statements from you 🙂 yes, publication timeliness are impacted by PI's time but also depends on assistants/applicants completion of work. I never said all publications are equal. being 4th author on 10 papers by washing test tubes is not same as one first author paper. My guess (since I am not an adcom) for my son's success so far is his stats, type and quality of his research (independent project) and very strong LORs (that's the feedback he has so far) but like everyone else, at this stage there is no pattern for his IIs. In conclusion, all you and I can do is speculate since we both never involved in actual admissions process 🤣🤣🤣

True -- I am not speaking as adcom, but as an interested premed repeating what people actually involved in actual admissions tell us. You argue with it because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion of how you think things should be, even with your own child providing evidence to the contrary, which you seemingly dismiss as some kind of aberration.

Yes, high quality research that a candidate can speak about is definitely important. Being in the right place, at the right time, with the right PI, and being published, isn't. Some people (coincidentally, probably around 5%) are. The rest aren't. Doesn't matter. Lowest importance. Vast majority of successful candidates, even at top schools, don't have it. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Not only for your son, but for everyone's son and daughter. 😎 Argue all you want. Still doesn't matter, and your son is going to prove it!

Your son has very strong blah blah blah. Someone else's son has very strong something else. Some people are lucky enough to have high impact pubs. Others have lower impact pubs. And still others have no pubs at all. What makes them successful is the very strong stuff, not the pubs. That's why they don't matter. Nobody gets in with pubs without the other stuff. 95% get in without pubs with the other stuff. Connect the dots.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Your son has very strong blah blah blah. Someone else's son has very strong something else. Some people are lucky enough to have high impact pubs. Others have lower impact pubs. And still others have no pubs at all. What makes them successful is the very strong stuff, not the pubs. That's why they don't matter. Nobody gets in with pubs without the other stuff. 95% get in without pubs with the other stuff. Connect the dots.

Again, I never said someone gets in with pubs only 🙂 Again they are icing on the cake and icing draws more attention. Switching back to OP, their main question is about having 2K hrs in research and lack of paper and my opinion is some schools will notice that and may ask about it.

 

[deleted1025488]

No publications, presentations, posters, or any activity at all in which you present your research probably would look bad especially over 2000 hours in my opinion.

However specific to publications, there are probably too many factors to directly answer your questions. I have many friends who do clinical research and have gotten multiple publications (not all first authorships) throughout their undergraduate career. Most recently, one of my pals conducted a 'study' where he pretty much just analyzed some data and derived a relationship between ambulance times and patient stay during covid at the uni hospital(or something across those lines) and him/his PI wrote a paper about it that got accepted already, this all happened over the couse of the summer.

Meanwhile I also have a few friends who do basic science research where it takes a significant amount of time to churn out results, interpret everything, etc. and not to mention the ludicrious review process especially for chem/physics. I know of one kid who is premed and managed to get his name on a publication after 2 summer programs at the same lab, and it was a 2nd degree authorship (field was organic chemistry/physics).

I don't think the first authorship about some observable relationship/statistical analysis that took a month or two would ever eclipse the former example, but that's just me. Obviously there are merits to clincal research but yeah, my two cents.

 

[KnightDoc]

Again, I never said someone gets in with pubs only 🙂 Again they are icing on the cake and icing draws more attention. Switching back to OP, their main question is about having 2K hrs in research and lack of paper and my opinion is some schools will notice that and may ask about it.

Fine - no one gets in with pubs only, and plenty of people get in with no pubs, so what's the true value of pubs? Schools can ask all they want. What matters is how the applicant answers the question, and what he did during the 2,000 hours, not whether or not he was published.

They invariably accompany some research but not other, and they are nice to have but not necessary to be successful. Now, go back and tell me about how they do matter for a select few, and I'll tell you no they don't.

You are confusing cause and effect. Yes, some students at top schools have top publications, but the fact that the vast majority of the class does not indicates that the publication is not necessary, and you have no basis to say it tipped a scale for a single doctor. You suspect that it does, but have no evidence, including your own superstar son. So please feel free to not concede the point. Still doesn't matter! 😎

 

[LizzyM]

Publications do matter but for select few it could be the cake but for most it's the icing on the cake 🙂 Again if they don't matter why do they ask about in the secondary or in the interviews?

many things that don't matter are unique to the applicant and therefore novel and therefore interesting to the reviewer who can only take so much cookie cutter conversation in a cycle. If I ask about your (kid's) participation on a quiz show or your (kid's) job operating a hot air balloon for tourists, it is not because it matters but because it is different and therefore interesting. The same goes for research with the extra bonus that is a good way to assess the applicant's ability to explain scientific concepts in a way that a lay person (or child) could understand. Such a skill is important for physicians.

 

[DNAJB6]

many things that don't matter are unique to the applicant and therefore novel and therefore interesting to the reviewer who can only take so much cookie cutter conversation in a cycle. If I ask about your (kid's) participation on a quiz show or your (kid's) job operating a hot air balloon for tourists, it is not because it matters but because it is different and therefore interesting. The same goes for research with the extra bonus that is a good way to assess the applicant's ability to explain scientific concepts in a way that a lay person (or child) could understand. Such a skill is important for physicians.

Do quirks or interesting activities/life experiences ever push a borderline candidate into the interview pile? If so, what kind of activities/experiences stand out to you from the thousands of applications you've read?

 

[Skarl]

Fine - no one gets in with pubs only, and plenty of people get in with no pubs, so what's the true value of pubs? Schools can ask all they want. What matters is how the applicant answers the question, and what he did during the 2,000 hours, not whether or not he was published.

They invariably accompany some research but not other, and they are nice to have but not necessary to be successful. Now, go back and tell me about how they do matter for a select few, and I'll tell you no they don't.

You are confusing cause and effect. Yes, some students at top schools have top publications, but the fact that the vast majority of the class does not indicates that the publication is not necessary, and you have no basis to say it tipped a scale for a single doctor. You suspect that it does, but have no evidence, including your own superstar son. So please feel free to not concede the point. Still doesn't matter! 😎

Browsing SDN all day doesn't give you the authority to knowledgeably comment on admissions practices. You are just parroting often-repeated things you hear from people who post here, which can be an echo chamber. Also consider your confirmation bias as a future applicant in wanting to hear things that would benefit you (e.g. if I am an applicant with no pubs I will want to hear that pubs aren't important and that "95%" students at top schools don't have them—which I being one of those students can tell you is simply untrue.)

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

many things that don't matter are unique to the applicant and therefore novel and therefore interesting to the reviewer who can only take so much cookie cutter conversation in a cycle. If I ask about your (kid's) participation on a quiz show or your (kid's) job operating a hot air balloon for tourists, it is not because it matters but because it is different and therefore interesting. The same goes for research with the extra bonus that is a good way to assess the applicant's ability to explain scientific concepts in a way that a lay person (or child) could understand. Such a skill is important for physicians.

Thanks for explain why such things are asked by interviewers. Can you please explain why Stanford asks for list of publications?

 

[KnightDoc]

Browsing SDN all day doesn't give you the authority to knowledgeably comment on admissions practices. You are just parroting often-repeated things you hear from people who post here, which can be an echo chamber. Also consider your confirmation bias as a future applicant in wanting to hear things that would benefit you (e.g. if I am an applicant with no pubs I will want to hear that pubs aren't important and that "95%" students at top schools don't have them—which I being one of those students can tell you is simply untrue.)

Very true! All I know is what I've been told. As someone who has been through the process, please share some information to help educate me and anyone else who is interested -- what tier school do you attend, how many publications did you have when you applied, what percent of your classmates were published prior to admission, and what types of journals were you all published in? Thanks!!! 😎

At the end of the day, if I have the time and inclination to browse all day, and my comments are in fact correct (whether from first hand experience or just "parroting often-repeated" correct information provided by others), does that not make them knowledgeable by definition???? 😎

Also, at least for myself, I am still in the process of compiling the experiences necessary to hopefully have a successful application cycle. Absolutely no confirmation bias here. I just need to know what is necessary to achieve my goals. Stats? Check! ECs? On it! Shadowing? Okay! Pubs??? I'll do what I need to do (either I'll manage to be published or I'll stay away from schools where that is expected!) -- I don't want to hear anything one way or the other. I just want truthful, accurate information. so that I can submit the best application possible and have an accurate assessment of my chances of success.

 

[KnightDoc]

Thanks for explain why such things are asked by interviewers. Can you please explain why Stanford asks for list of publications?

I'll go out on a limb and guess it might be because they would like to see whether and where you were published????

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I'll go out on a limb and guess it might be because they would like to see whether and where you were published????

so they are just curious but won't use that info to determine IIs and As?

 

[KnightDoc]

so they are just curious but won't use that info to determine IIs and As?

No, they are asking, but it doesn't mean you need it. They also ask if you are URM or low SES. Do you think there are any rich White people in the class?? 😎

For the umpteenth time, obviously it's better to have it than not. But, if such a large percent of the class (maybe it's greater at Stanford, but still) doesn't have it, in journals that matter, how important is it? They also ask about awards. Do you think you need to be a Rhodes or Fulbright or Goldwater, etc. scholar to go to Stanford? It's great to have, but very few people do, and that's okay!!!

Again, they care about what you are doing, and that's what often leads to an award or a publication. But they REALLY care about what's beneath the publication, not the publication itself. If this were not true, nearly 100% at places like Stanford would be published. Are they?

 

[lacrossegirl420]

@KnightDoc : just because something isn't "required" for admissions doesn't mean it doesn't help immensely. very few things are actually outright required to apply in this process. Eg there are people who have gotten in with 0 volunteering at schools like HMS/Stanford, so by your logic the fact there exist such people means you should feel comfortable applying without it because clearly there are those who have gotten in without it...

 

[KnightDoc]

@KnightDoc : just because something isn't "required" for admissions doesn't mean it doesn't help immensely. very few things are actually outright required to apply in this process. Eg there are people who have gotten in with 0 volunteering at schools like HMS/Stanford, so by your logic the fact there exist such people means you should feel comfortable applying without it because clearly there are those who have gotten in without it...

I kind of like you and your sense of humor, so I honestly don't want to get into a p---ing contest with you, but you can't just say random things to try to make a point. Just who gets into HMS/Stanford with ZERO volunteering hours, and how do you happen to know these people, or even of these people? I'm calling BS. I haven't seen anything, anywhere, suggesting that any US med school does not consider community service and volunteering to be of the highest importance in evaluating a candidate for admission. No, no one should feel comfortable applying to even the lowest ranked school in the country with zero volunteering, because that is bound to lead to disappointment.

On the other hand, while there is no question that having a publication is better than not having one, there is also very little question that an achievement that relatively few people have, even at top schools, and that is ranked of "lowest importance" in the 2015 AAMC adcom survey, is more of a "nice to have" than an "immense" help or a requirement. If it is so important, how the hell does anyone get in without it, and how do people with multiple publications still find themselves rejected every year?

 

[Lawpy]

how is this viewed by research powerhouses? have very strong LOR's from all experiences, know what I did very well, and have some awards for it. will this be viewed as lack of research productivity or as commitment to research? stats and other activities are strong (LM>78 balanced, good clinical, etc.).

Is this basic science? Because it's hard to get pubs even with thousands of hours of basic research

 

[KnightDoc]

Is this basic science? Because it's hard to get pubs even with thousands of hours of basic research

This^^^^. Besides being hard to get, pubs are determined more by who you happen to get hooked up with in a lab than anything any UG would typically be creating on their own. THIS is why it would be immensely unfair to place a lot of weight on publications, and why schools apparently don't do it. They are more a reflection on who you happen to be associating with than on you. 😎

 

[Skarl]

Very true! All I know is what I've been told. As someone who has been through the process, please share some information to help educate me and anyone else who is interested -- what tier school do you attend, how many publications did you have when you applied, what percent of your classmates were published prior to admission, and what types of journals were you all published in? Thanks!!! 😎

At the end of the day, if I have the time and inclination to browse all day, and my comments are in fact correct (whether from first hand experience or just "parroting often-repeated" correct information provided by others), does that not make them knowledgeable by definition???? 😎

Also, at least for myself, I am still in the process of compiling the experiences necessary to hopefully have a successful application cycle. Absolutely no confirmation bias here. I just need to know what is necessary to achieve my goals. Stats? Check! ECs? On it! Shadowing? Okay! Pubs??? I'll do what I need to do (either I'll manage to be published or I'll stay away from schools where that is expected!) -- I don't want to hear anything one way or the other. I just want truthful, accurate information. so that I can submit the best application possible and have an accurate assessment of my chances of success.

Here's a stat from UMich Med showing that 40% of their incoming 2019 class were published as co-authors and 18% as first authors:

And FWIW, my school ranks higher than UMich on US News Research, so the proportion is likely similar if not greater in my class.

I commend you for doing research to strengthen your application. SDN was certainly a big help to me when I applied. But conflating SDN dogma with admissions expertise and thinking that you are not susceptible to confirmation bias is absurd.

 

[Lawpy]

Here's a stat from UMich Med showing that 40% of their incoming 2019 class were published as co-authors and 18% as first authors:

And FWIW, my school ranks higher than UMich on US News Research, so the proportion is likely similar if not greater in my class.

I commend you for doing research to strengthen your application. SDN was certainly a big help to me when I applied. But conflating SDN dogma with admissions expertise and thinking that you are not susceptible to confirmation bias is absurd.

How many of those papers are basic science?

 

[deleted1025488]

Here's a stat from UMich Med showing that 40% of their incoming 2019 class were published as co-authors and 18% as first authors:

And FWIW, my school ranks higher than UMich on US News Research, so the proportion is likely similar if not greater in my class.

I commend you for doing research to strengthen your application. SDN was certainly a big help to me when I applied. But conflating SDN dogma with admissions expertise and thinking that you are not susceptible to confirmation bias is absurd.

That's an interesting stat. The 44% non-trad (defined as >2 years of a gap year) and nearly 25 avg. year-old class is pretty revealing, actually. I would bet that the majority of students making up the 40%/18% fall into the older non-trad students who probably took an extra few years to do some research. Also, I really do wish there was a clarification on the type of research these students conducted, I don't seem to ever find a solid answer to the "basic science vs. clinical" research notion.

 

[KnightDoc]

Here's a stat from UMich Med showing that 40% of their incoming 2019 class were published as co-authors and 18% as first authors:

And FWIW, my school ranks higher than UMich on US News Research, so the proportion is likely similar if not greater in my class.

I commend you for doing research to strengthen your application. SDN was certainly a big help to me when I applied. But conflating SDN dogma with admissions expertise and thinking that you are not susceptible to confirmation bias is absurd.

True enough. I guess I am guilty of confusing dogma coming from known adcoms with admissions expertise, and I guess it's possible that their advice represents nothing more than one person's opinion, with all of their inherent biases, and might only be applicable to their school, even if their school is also a T10. Your points are very well taken!

Even so, based on my limited experience as an UG, plus what the AAMC survey says, plus what the adcoms say, it STILL seems to me like people who claim pubs are important are confusing cause and effect, without regard to the SDN confirmation bias or echo chamber. To me, as a mere premed lay person, even at Michigan, it seems like 82% not being first author and 60% not being published at all makes it feel like pubs are nice to have rather than essential.

More importantly, I am more convinced than ever that it's the research that leads to the publication that is valued by the top schools, rather than the publication itself, because it seems like successful publication is more luck of the draw regarding the lab and the PI than skill of the applicant. MCATs are required -- 100% of matriculants have a score. Same with ECs, prereqs, etc. To a lesser extent, same with research at the powerhouses. Publications? Apparently, not as much!

Even so, definitely more than 5% at top schools, so I'm not sure where that number comes from (it might be high impact journals, but it's not my number, so I;m not sure), and I will concede that point.