A medical school without a cadaver lab??

[DannMann99]

They said they will use these videos:

The Tapes show you true images of real, exquisitely dissected human anatomical specimens, in three dimensions. Acland's Video Atlas uses fresh, unembalmed specimens that retain the color, texture, mobility--and beauty--of the living human body. A concise synchronized narration runs throughout the video. As each new structure is shown, its name appears on the screen. There is a self-testing feature at the end of each section.

I don't know.. I was just looking forward to getting to place my hands on another human's body and learn about the anatomy that way... I mean come on. LECOM seton hill is a DO school. We learn best by the hands-on approach.

Say what you will for or against his question. Aclands video's are pretty great, but in reality who do you think will learn more. Someone who watched aclands, or someone who disected the entire body and used aclands as a supplement ontop of texts and dissectors... Im sure most schools already have subscription to acland's...

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[exPCM]

If you eliminate cadavers for medical students, what's next?
Do we say that medical students don't have to see patients either and instead use computer programs and simultors to replace 3rd and 4th year clerkships. Then the next step might be to just have online medical schools. The possibilities are mind-boggling.

 

[BCLumas]

I think the reason that scpod and myself don't see this as a problem per se is because we attend a PBL school (which LECOM-Seton Hill is going to be) where all of our important learning issues are taught by the student. Biochemistry, Immunology, Neuroanatomy, Pathology, Pharmacology. Everyone in the school, starting in your first year, is taught to teach yourself what material you need to know and get through it within two years. Using the cadavers was helpful, I will admit, but I could have easily learned the information using a solid Atlas and a great book; Acland videos would have been a supplement.

I'm sure that everyone has their own style of learning, but for students who learn via the PBL route and appreciate the learning process, Anatomy is just another subject we are required to pick and learn from. Ultimately, if you think about it, you're not going to learn all of the Anatomy that there is to know within your 10-week/1-semester course. It needs to be constantly supplemented into your learning. Understanding the degradation of medications hinges upon your basic understanding of how the liver is arranged, both grossly and cellularly. How the heck do the drugs even enter the liver? What cells in the parenchyma interact with the drugs? How did those cells develop?

This isn't the end of a tradition and should not be looked at as blasphemous. It should be seen as a different way for students to learn how to be great physicians, of which is something our society is in desparate need.

I'm off to Orlando. Going to spend the evening relaxing! Good luck everyone!

 

[spicedmanna]

If your ultimate goal was to dissect cadavers, then I'd say you need more than a simulation.

Well, I'm not even emphasizing the dissection aspect, just being able to touch and see the anatomy (and relationships of structures) in 3D is beneficial, so a prosection would suffice. I happen to enjoy dissection, for the most part, but that's a personal predilection.

Yet, in order to become a doctor, not an anatomist, you really don't need to cut up cadavers to learn about anatomy. The amount of anatomy you really need to know is very small if you look at the total picture-- an amount easily learnable with new technologies.

I think that's arguable. I'm open to the idea, but consider that one of the foundations of osteopathic medicine is in really knowing anatomy; it is fundamental. It's even more important if you choose a field of medicine that relies heavily on that knowledge in practice, such as radiology, surgery, doing a lot of invasive procedures, etc. I think it's difficult to know anatomy from watching videos; you have to get hands on at some point and it's better to start with something benign and easy, like cadavers. What you say is more true if you are going into primary care, but then again, as previously stated, OMM/OMT is supposed to be founded on extensive knowledge of anatomy; this is something that was emphasized by AT Still from the get go. Additionally, while in practice we might be using only a subset of what we learn in the pre-clinical years, it's hard to predict what subset of the total at any given time we are going to need to draw from.

Again, if you're gonna make a living cutting up cadavers....then, you probably need some practice on real ones. To be a doctor, you probably need more practice on H&P's.

There's no need to make compromises; you can have both. I don't think eliminating anatomy lab is going to open up any more time for you. It takes just as long to watch videos to learn anatomy as it is to attend lab. However, I'm open to the possibility that some combination of technology may eventually be able to replace and perhaps be even better than working with cadavers. I just think it isn't here yet.

 

[scpod]

....It's even more important if you choose a field of medicine that relies heavily on that knowledge in practice, such as radiology....

Radiologists don't learn anatomy from cadavers. They read thousands upon thousands of films and ultimately get a feel for what normal looks like.

...surgery... .

Surgeons do a lot of cutting in 5 years of residency. Missing out on one in med school that you share the cutting duties on with a bunch of other people won't make a whole lot of difference in the long run. They'll have plenty of practice in residency.

....It takes just as long to watch videos to learn anatomy as it is to attend lab....

It can take hours to dissect through fat and fascia to find a few small things. In a few hours with one of these videos, a computer simulation, a good atlas and your textbook you can learn the entire back, arm or thigh, for example, easily. You might think that having to cut through it all will make it stick in your mind. But, the real thing that makes it stick is repetition. The less time you spend on dissection, even though it's a really cool thing to do, the more time you have to study and let repetition work for you.

....However, I'm open to the possibility that some combination of technology may eventually be able to replace and perhaps be even better than working with cadavers. I just think it isn't here yet.

Until you've actually explored all the available technology it might be wise to withold judgement on that. We used some pretty cool 3-D simulations in lab and we also spent a good bit of time on plain films and CTs. That has really helped me a whole heck of a lot more during clinicals than looking at cadavers ever did.

When someone comes in with back, or neck, or knee pain or whatever....it's more important that I know how to evaluate the injury and know what to do with it. I really don't have to know much more than the basics of anatomy. If I was an orthopaedic surgeon the anatomy would matter. Then again, I would have spent 5 years learning it during residency.

That said, I think dissection is really cool. I just don't think it's truly necessary to learn the amount of anatomy that you need to become a doctor. If you need more training in anatomy for your chosen specialization you'll get it during residency.

 

[spicedmanna]

Radiologists don't learn anatomy from cadavers. They read thousands upon thousands of films and ultimately get a feel for what normal looks like.

Of course, this is plainly obvious; this is how all of medicine is learned. Any elementary school child knows that. However, I think a medical student (in clinical rotations) and even an intern would have an easier time, at least at the beginning, having worked with cadavers. Maybe this is where the fallacy in my thinking resides, but I think you can't learn certain things from books and videos. I don't mean to say that cadavers are the end all in gaining anatomical knowledge, but it is, in my opinion, a very good beginning, or foundation for what is to come. It has more to teach than simple anatomical facts, which pretty much anyone can learn from Netter's, or similar source. Can you, for instance, appreciate how spongy the lung is, from viewing video? Can you appreciate how emphysema impacts lung tissue, or how polycystic kidney disease manifests, in 3D, on an actual kidney, from video? While it's still not in living color, it's closer than video, in my opinion. What about how ravaging mets from CA can be on various tissue? Breast CA? Seeing multiple CABG's? Cortical atrophy that often accompanies Alzheimer's? A liver so large and diseased that it went all the way to the ASIS? Weird variations in structures, etc.? I feel fortunate that I had a chance to view, appreciate, and touch these things and more in cadavers.

Surgeons do a lot of cutting in 5 years of residency. Missing out on one in med school that you share the cutting duties on with a bunch of other people won't make a whole lot of difference in the long run. They'll have plenty of practice in residency.

Without a doubt. I don't think we disagree here. Where we disagree is how to prepare for residency and clinical rotations. I don't think knowing anatomy is just memorizing basic anatomical facts. Again, this could be an error in my thinking, but I just feel that using video cheats the student out of something they can, to my knowledge, only get through actually working with the human body, beyond anatomical facts. Yes, you'll probably eventually pick those things up, but I think not having these experiences early on can be impactful nevertheless. If you don't go into surgery, then it's one of the few times you get to appreciate anatomy this way.

Once again, I'm not talking about cutting/dissection. Whether dissected or prosected, is not as material to me. I'm talking about being able to touch and work with a cadaver. I'm talking about seeing and touching the structures in situ and in actual 3D relationship with one another. I'm talking about tactile learning.

It can take hours to dissect through fat and fascia to find a few small things. In a few hours with one of these videos, a computer simulation, a good atlas and your textbook you can learn the entire back, arm or thigh, for example, easily. You might think that having to cut through it all will make it stick in your mind. But, the real thing that makes it stick is repetition. The less time you spend on dissection, even though it's a really cool thing to do, the more time you have to study and let repetition work for you.

Again, I'm not talking about dissection. While it's neat and all, and might have value in itself, it's independent of my point, which is having the option to work with an actual cadaver, not just one in video.

Until you've actually explored all the available technology it might be wise to withold judgement on that. We used some pretty cool 3-D simulations in lab and we also spent a good bit of time on plain films and CTs. That has really helped me a whole heck of a lot more during clinicals than looking at cadavers ever did.

We did some of that, too, in addition to working with cadavers. We made good use of technology, viewed anatomy through various imaging media, scoping, etc., and also used cadavers. Guess what? There was still time to learn other things as well, including H&P's. I have already done close to 60-70 actual physicals, if not more.

That said, I think dissection is really cool. I just don't think it's truly necessary to learn the amount of anatomy that you need to become a doctor. If you need more training in anatomy for your chosen specialization you'll get it during residency.

Maybe you are right. I don't know. Let's see.

 

[scpod]

....Can you, for instance, appreciate how spongy the lung is, from viewing video? Can you appreciate how emphysema impacts lung tissue, or how polycystic kidney disease manifests, in 3D, on an actual kidney, from video? While it's still not in living color, it's closer than video, in my opinion. What about how ravaging mets from CA can be on various tissue? Breast CA? Seeing multiple CABG's? Cortical atrophy that often accompanies Alzheimer's? A liver so large and diseased that it went all the way to the ASIS? Weird variations in structures, etc.? I feel fortunate that I had a chance to view, appreciate, and touch these things and more in cadavers....

I agree that that stuff is really cool to see. Yet, it has zero effect on how I approach my patients. It doesn't help me diagnose them, nor does it help me treat them. Do you wanna know what ravaging mets to the liver are really like to your patient? Sit down for a minute and talk about their lives because no one else can look them in the eyes. Watch them as they struggle to take a breath. You don't need to feel their weak pulse because you can see it in the arteries sticking out of their cachectic bodies. You kind of wonder if things look distorted to them through those yellow eyes as you look for their pupils to respond. Knowing how spongy his lung is or what his liver looks like macroscopically wouldn't help me, or him, a whole heck of a lot.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.

 

[spicedmanna]

I agree that that stuff is really cool to see. Yet, it has zero effect on how I approach my patients. It doesn't help me diagnose them, nor does it help me treat them. Do you wanna know what ravaging mets to the liver are really like to your patient? Sit down for a minute and talk about their lives because no one else can look them in the eyes. Watch them as they struggle to take a breath. You don't need to feel their weak pulse because you can see it in the arteries sticking out of their cachectic bodies. You kind of wonder if things look distorted to them through those yellow eyes as you look for their pupils to respond. Knowing how spongy his lung is or what his liver looks like macroscopically wouldn't help me, or him, a whole heck of a lot.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.

You present powerful images, my friend. I do concede that you have experience I do not have. You are in the midst of your clinical rotations and I have yet to begin mine. Although I am not without clinical experience, the experience you are gathering is likely much more extensive and in depth than what I have witnessed thus far.

Given that, I am viewing your words here with much respect and humbleness. I can see where you are coming from. Maybe when I am where you are, my thinking will come closer into alignment with yours.

 

[scpod]

Given that, I am viewing your words here with much respect and humbleness. I can see where you are coming from. Maybe when I am where you are, my thinking will come closer into alignment with yours.

I've always respected your opinion. I've also always enjoyed a good debate . I guess I've come to look at things a little differently lately. To me, a good day is when I only have to do one rectal. Today was a good day .

 

[han14tra]

NEWS FLASH!!!

Ok, so Seton Hill has a PA program and they use cadavers for anatomy. I just emailed their program director to find out if medical students will have the opportunity to dissect them even if it's not a formal class. I said that I'd like the opportunity to learn with my future partners. I'll let you know how it works out.

Seems kind of ridiculous that medical students don't use cadavers but PAs do.

 

[han14tra]

We had a consultant up from Jefferson Medical School this week. Richard Schmidt is a long time professor at Jefferson in Anatomy. He summed up why (not LECOM but another school) needed to continue to work on cadavers this way, “I can show you pictures, videos and give you books about a foreign country. I can tell you all about it, what it looks like and smells like, and how big the mountains are. But once you go you see that no matter how well someone has described it, it is different. The body is like a foreign country. If you are going to be a good doctor you have to see it personally.”

Why can't LECOM see it this way

 

[han14tra]

here is someone's opinion that describes 100% how I feel:

As someone who went to a start-up medical school I would agree that seeing, touching and being in the presence of a deceased person makes a huge impact on a medical student, from many perspectives. I have also extensively used computer and OSCE modalities and 'real' is a superior teacher in many ways. Real, gives you a sense of humility and respect for human life and how fragile it really is. Computers do not have painted fingernails like a cadaver I worked on who came in for a simple procedure after having a manicure and pedicure and leaving as a corpse. A cadaver is sobering and gets your attention. A cadaver had a life before being on your table. A cadaver, with all the extra work and expenses involved in providing them to students is a real gift and will not be forgotten by the student who becomes a physician.

 

[danzman]

I spent a semester in undergrad anatomy with prossected cadavers, then I took a semester of just dissection (making the cadavers for the anatomy course), now my medical school uses prossected cadavers. IMHO dissecting is a huge waste of time. Its neat to play surgeon for about a day, then its just messy and gross. I didn’t learn anything from cutting that I couldn’t from just looking. Now in med school, I think even having cadavers at all is largely a waste of funds and time. You will learn 90% from an atlas or a video, and the cadavers are generally in bad shape, as most will be pretty old. The only neat/worthwhile thing about cadavers is that they may show some pathology, (tumors, stroke, etc’). One of my undergrad cadavers had polio and ill never forget how messed up his muscles were. I think they should just have four cadavers, one young (below 60) male and female, and one old (over 80) male and female, and just conduct lab time like it was a review for a test, where a prof goes over everything they want you to learn. Thus, you don’t waste hours on end wondering what your looking at (this can be very frustrating when your dissecting.)

 

[Powdermonkey]

From someone in anatomy right now, dissecting sucks. Its VERY time consuming and boring, and we dont really know for sure what we are looking at, we cut through stuff we shouldnt, and I really dont like gross dissection. I do like to dissect the structures from each other once the fat and fascia is finally off, but I've wasted many a lab and countless hours outside of lab trying to clean our body off.

Me personally, I like seeing things and putting my hands on things to figure out relationships and its nice being able to touch all the different structures and stuff to see what they feel like. But you have to take this with a grain of salt, because these people have been dead for around 2 years. The tissue isnt the same consistency, things dont look the same as living tissue, and there is dried blood in all the vessels, the lungs, the heart, the organs, etc. So its good, but its not an end all.

By the way, I have a classmate who is allergic to the formalin used to preserve the bodies, and rather than wearing a gas mask (which he has) into lab, he uses the full color anatomy photograph books and is doing well in anatomy. So you dont HAVE to have bodies to get it. It may take some extra studying or visualization skills, but its doable. I wouldnt prefer it for myself though.

 

[slim78]

If you eliminate cadavers for medical students, what's next?
Do we say that medical students don't have to see patients either and instead use computer programs and simultors to replace 3rd and 4th year clerkships. Then the next step might be to just have online medical schools. The possibilities are mind-boggling.

Classic example of the slippery slope fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

 

[jayzbel2]

I personally would prefer a cutting class over pictures and videos. Even my undergrad state college had gross anatomy, we had 4 bodies between 16 students.

 

[bkpa2med]

Cadaver labs are really important. I know they helped me learn a lot more than Netter.

 

[han14tra]

MORE INFORMATION!!!

I just got an email back from the VP of LECOM-Seton Hill. He said that he asked the dean of Erie, and they are agreeing to allow Seton Hill students to dissect a cadaver over the summer between year 1 and 2 or as a clinical rotation.

I also just got an email back from the director of the PA anatomy program at Seton Hill. She said that they use cadavers at Seton Hill, and though they hadn't previously considered it they are willing to discuss med students using their cadavers in the evenings for reinforcement.

Seems like both schools are really into making this a good experience. I just freaked out a little at first because it seemed that LECOM was just interested in being "the largest medical school" and not really caring about their students.

But now, I actually think this will be better than what's offered at some other schools. Instead of 5 people hovering over 1 cadaver for 3 hours, we'll get to do the dissections on our own time and at our own pace.

P.S. No PBL students at Seton Hill or Erie will have the cadaver based anatomy.

 

[spazzz]

I'm sure my opinion isn't widely shared, but I don't think it is a big deal. Our school always tells us how lucky we should feel that we have a cadaver lab, but seriously I don't think it is THAT helpful.

In my honest opinion, a LOT of the stuff you should be focusing on anyway is diagnostic imaging. Unless you are a surgeon, you won't have the benefit of opening up the body to see what is inside. And even if you did, these cadavers aren't all that representative of what things look like en vivo anyway.

In short, sure a cadaver lab is a plus, but I think they are overrated.

this is a joke right? so you'd rather cut a human body for the first time on someone who is alive and ready to be saved vs. one who has donated their body to help you learn?

 

[spazzz]

Imagine the surprise of those who trained w/o working on actual cadavers that many, if not most, bodies don't line up perfectly with Netter's (or whatever the model happens to be), and some won't even look like the pictures at all.

exactly.

 

[BCLumas]

MORE INFORMATION!!!

I just got an email back from the VP of LECOM-Seton Hill. He said that he asked the dean of Erie, and they are agreeing to allow Seton Hill students to dissect a cadaver over the summer between year 1 and 2 or as a clinical rotation.

I also just got an email back from the director of the PA anatomy program at Seton Hill. She said that they use cadavers at Seton Hill, and though they hadn't previously considered it they are willing to discuss med students using their cadavers in the evenings for reinforcement.

Seems like both schools are really into making this a good experience. I just freaked out a little at first because it seemed that LECOM was just interested in being "the largest medical school" and not really caring about their students.

But now, I actually think this will be better than what's offered at some other schools. Instead of 5 people hovering over 1 cadaver for 3 hours, we'll get to do the dissections on our own time and at our own pace.

P.S. No PBL students at Seton Hill or Erie will have the cadaver based anatomy.

Umm.. First of all, large text: unnecessary. Secondly, I was under the assumption that LECOM-SH was just like LECOM-B: only PBL. If that's the case, then either you're getting your wires crossed somewhere or they're telling you one thing and doing another. Down here in Florida, all the first-year students take a gross anatomy course even though we are a fully PBL school. I don't know what they're going to do up there, but just know two things: (A) The gross anatomy you are going to learn should be clinical gross anatomy and your readings will reflect that, and (B) PBL isn't impossible and can be, in my own opinion, completely transformed and adapted for a completely-PBL designed curriculum.

Good luck.

 

[BCLumas]

this is a joke right? so you'd rather cut a human body for the first time on someone who is alive and ready to be saved vs. one who has donated their body to help you learn?

Some rebuttals, if you will:

• Cadaver skin =/= Human skin
• Nervousness while cutting a cadaver =/= Nervousness while cutting the living
• Techniques used for dissection =/= Techniques used for surgery

Here in LECOM-B, all of our cadavers are prossected. We do not get to cut any of the bodies, unless you're lucky enough to be chosen as a dissecionist over the summer. So to answer your questions:

1. No, this is not a joke
2. Yes, I would rather learn my surgical techniques on the living human upon which I will practice

Dissection of the cadaver will teach me how to hold the instruments and how to use them in a DESTRUCTIVE and PATHOLOGIC manner (as Gross Anatomy is), but not in a PRESERVATIVE and CLINICAL manner.

Carry on.

Good luck.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

As I said before, I don't learn much in anatomy lab. Occasionally, one of the instructors will come over and start pointing stuff out to us, and if I'm lucky enough to be close enough to see what they're pointing out, I'll pick up a few things. Dissecting is tedious and boring.

I do tons of learning when I'm in the lab on my own, or with a few others. Usually in the week or so leading up to the exam. We go from body to body, looking for stuff.

Having said that:

1. In a dissection lab, there are tons of cadavers. You get to see a lot of variation. This is a pretty big deal, I think. It is hard to explain, but there are a lot of small differences that give you a better feel for exactly what is going on with each structure. A prosection lab with far fewer cadavers would not offer this. A prosection lab with 15-20 cadavers would be ideal, but probably unrealistic? I can't imagine that the instructors and a few assistants would do that many. Some of these dissections take forever.

2. There is no way in hell I could learn this from a book. I can read this **** all day and not know anything. A few hours in the lab, with a good group, and I'm good to go.

 

[han14tra]

Umm.. First of all, large text: unnecessary. Secondly, I was under the assumption that LECOM-SH was just like LECOM-B: only PBL. If that's the case, then either you're getting your wires crossed somewhere or they're telling you one thing and doing another. Down here in Florida, all the first-year students take a gross anatomy course even though we are a fully PBL school. I don't know what they're going to do up there, but just know two things: (A) The gross anatomy you are going to learn should be clinical gross anatomy and your readings will reflect that, and (B) PBL isn't impossible and can be, in my own opinion, completely transformed and adapted for a completely-PBL designed curriculum.

Good luck.

There was no mention of LECOM-Brandeton at any point in my discussion of this topic. So, I don't know how it works there. However, there will be NO cadaver based anatomy lab for PBL students at Erie or Seton Hill (straight from the dean's mouth and the VP at Seton Hill).

Sorry that the large text irritated you, however, I'm trying to make sure people read the information about the schools so that they can choose wisely. Are you doing okay at school? You seem a bit stressed in your posts.

 

[engineeredout]

There was no mention of LECOM-Brandeton at any point in my discussion of this topic. So, I don't know how it works there. However, there will be NO cadaver based anatomy lab for PBL students at Erie or Seton Hill (straight from the dean's mouth and the VP at Seton Hill).

2nded, they told us the same thing at my erie interview.

 

[Cocoloco]

2nded, they told us the same thing at my erie interview.

I recently interviewed in Erie and this was never mentioned. Did they give reasons for doing this? Will we be able to go to the anatomy lab with LDP students if we wish?
I am very angry that I was not told about this at my interview. As has been previously stated, learning anatomy from a book is not the same as seeing it on a person given all the variations that exist.

 

[han14tra]

I was also angry that they covered it up at the interview. They told me that we can dissect during the summer with faculty in Erie or do it as a clinical rotation during the 3rd year. Seton Hill also has cadavers on-campus, but they are unsure if we will be able to use them.

 

[engineeredout]

I recently interviewed in Erie and this was never mentioned. Did they give reasons for doing this? Will we be able to go to the anatomy lab with LDP students if we wish?
I am very angry that I was not told about this at my interview. As has been previously stated, learning anatomy from a book is not the same as seeing it on a person given all the variations that exist.

Amy didn't actually know why they aren't doing it. Someone at my interview said they asked the interviewers about it but got kind of a runaround answer. I think I remember somebody at one point saying that you could possibly view cadavers but to be honest I wasn't paying all that much attention as I picked LDP as my first preference anyway. PBL sounds cool but it scares me, I don't know how well I'll be able to learn in it compared to regular LDP.

 

[BCLumas]

There was no mention of LECOM-Brandeton at any point in my discussion of this topic. So, I don't know how it works there. However, there will be NO cadaver based anatomy lab for PBL students at Erie or Seton Hill (straight from the dean's mouth and the VP at Seton Hill).

Sorry that the large text irritated you, however, I'm trying to make sure people read the information about the schools so that they can choose wisely. Are you doing okay at school? You seem a bit stressed in your posts.

Well it was definitely relevant in my eyes since it's a LECOM branch and is a strictly PBL school that is the model for the Seton Hill Campus. You keep saying that there will be access to cadavers, but that there also won't be. It's a bit confusing and I'm already in school. If you're talking about the summer dissections (which we also have down here in Florida) then I can only assume that the program will be similar to the one instituted down here. Maybe not, but I can only go off of what I know and how it can correlate to that which will be. Basically, only a select group of students (8 to 12 out of 160) are chosen to do dissections that involve the skin and the musculoskeletal system. Beyond that, there is nothing. No thoracic dissection, no abdominal dissection, no cranial dissection, nothing. Those are left intact and opened up (again, down here) so that the contents are kept as "fresh" as possible.

As for my status in school, I'm doing extremely well, but thanks for being concerned. Rocked Anatomy and kicking butt in PBL. My posting, rather, reflects how people present themselves. I admire what your posts are trying to do, and will admit that my post might have seemed harsh (although the giant font was a bit excessive, IMHO), so this perceived frustration is not directed your way. I, too, was trying to help dissolve an already convoluted situation.

Keep up the good work and congratulations on your acceptance.

Good luck.

 

[han14tra]

Here is all I can tell you. This is the email from the admin at LECOM

Let me first address your question regarding the opportunity to dissect a cadaver, either at Seton Hill or during the summer at Erie. There will be no dissection at Seton Hill. The Dean has indicated that LECOM at Seton Hill students who wish to participate in dissection in Erie could do so during the summer following completion of the 2nd year of medical school. As the 3rd year rotations begin in the summer (i.e. no summer vacation after the 2nd year), this would technically be an elective clinical rotation of the 3rd year. It may also be possible to do this during the break between the 1st and 2nd years of medical school, this is not something that has yet been discussed.

With regard to differences between LECOM-Erie and LECOM at Seton Hill, please note that beginning in 2009, PBL students at Erie will also be learning Anatomy via the same non-cadaver course used at Seton Hill. Thus, with respect to students on the PBL pathway, there will be no difference between LECOM-Erie and LECOM-Seton Hill in the anatomy course. Please note that Erie students in other pathways (i.e. Lecture-Discussion and Independent Study) will continue cadaver dissection in Anatomy.

The only substantive difference between the LECOM-Erie (PBL only) and LECOM at Seton Hill curricula is that Erie students will have the History & Physical course during 3 of the 4 pre-clinical semesters and we plan to have it during all four semesters at Seton Hill. There may be minor differences in the timing and sequencing of some "short" courses (i.e. health care management, spirituality and ethics, etc.) as in some cases the same faculty will teach at both sites (and can't be in too places at once).


In my OWN opinion, I sort of like the option of dissecting during the summer. I've already learned the info so its just reinforcement. Additionally, I'll be dissecting at a time when I can work at my own pace and not in a group of 5 students. So, I don't think this is really a disadvantage.

Also, I emailed the director of the PA program at Seton Hill. They have cadavers there, and they are currently unsure of whether med students will have an opportunity to use those if they wish.

 

[Bleurberry]

Say what you will for or against his question. Aclands video's are pretty great, but in reality who do you think will learn more. Someone who watched aclands, or someone who disected the entire body and used aclands as a supplement ontop of texts and dissectors... Im sure most schools already have subscription to acland's...

Yep,
I was just on PCOM's website, they've got a link to Acland's videos from their library page. I'm looking forward to using both the lab and the videos, really.

 

[DaveCopperfield]

i've been reading the posts going back and forth regarding the pros/cons of participating in a cadaver based anatomy lab. my question is this: would PBL student at lecom-erie have access to the cadavers that the LDP and ISP students work on? i mean, i know there won't be any direct dissections by the PBL students; but if they wanted to see and feel what they learned from books and videos, would they have that opportunity? the information i was reading was a little vague, so i just wanted some clarity. i feel, if this was possible, then waiting until the summer after the second year, wouldn't be so bad.

 

[montessori2md]

-I'm currently dissecting. So my thoughts:

1) Our curriculum seems founded on that old school/hazing aspect of medical school. That is, they throw you in the lab and expect you to find minutiae and memorize until you cannot keep your eyes open. It is a rite of passage, and I do think the instructors get a certain amount of pleasure from the downward movement of our bell curve.

2) I could NOT pass the exams w/o lab time. I remember the parts I dissected better than the ones I did not. (Kinesthetic learning) But our exams are probably written to ensure that this is the case -there are lots of questions about the orientation of things to each other -like which muscle is lateral to x, or what structure is superior to x, which you CAN learn from atlases, by memorizing everything in 3D, but it's freaking tedious, IMHO, compared to just going into the lab and drilling it w/ 4 of your friends (hard for 4 people to huddle around a page of netters).

3) I don't think it will do much to make me a better MD, and I personally know at least one surgeon who hated anatomy and did not do well in lab.

4) I would happily trade my lab time for surgical observation time, and would happily learn from prosections. It is never the case that EVERYONE cuts every day anyhow, so we might as well. You could have, say 10 bodies/class, and have a sign up sheet for students who wanted a turn cutting, and everyone else could stay home and study. What lab really does is create a small group learning environment for you and the faculty -we can ask questions, with visual aids present. The variation is not that interesting to me, though it is fun to see all the hardware in the cadavers, and things like cysts, tumors, etc. You could get all of this from pre-cut corpses, or even the Bodies exhibition.

5) I don't think dissection prepares you for actually cutting a live person. Sure, they have nail polish, etc, but they smell like formaldehyde, they are grey, they don't bleed (much), and some of them are literally dried like beef jerky or moldering. It's like learning to suture on supermarket chicken -yeah, it might be better than nothing, but it's not the same.

 

[MossPoh]

If any of you can get your hands on the Pharos magazine, there is actually an article about the movement towards anatomy and the reasons why many anatomist and teachers want cadavers to stay. (My dad gets it since he was AOA in medschool...alpha omega alpha that is) It was an interesting article with a bunch of information as to why most teachers prefer student guided dissection.

 

[PghMedic6]

I think it's a shame that the AOA COCA would accredit any school that doesn't have cadaver dissection.

I think this is a pretty narrow minded view. People learn differently and different media appeals to different people. I personally do not have the fascination with death and dead bodies that many others share. In addition, no one mentioned the risks of working with carcinogenic chemicals in the lab and breathing in the fumes that most of the time are many ppm above the legal standards. I have a degree in chemistry and never worked with formalin, phenol, or any of the other preservatives EXCEPT under a fume hood!! Also, many students (and profs who are forced to work with this stuff year after year) begin to develop allergies and reactions that can be serious. I had an allergic reaction to the preservatives in the anatomy lab and began to do some research- finding out that it is very common. Some schools are doing away with the cadavers due to cost, yes, but safety of staff and students is also a concern.

While of course anatomy is important in medical studies, just ask how many working physicians in ED's or Primary Care offices really know that minute detail that they learned in anatomy class. I bet you would find a lot of that info has been forgotten. I have been a paramedic crew chief for 10 years and have done many interventional procedures both in the field and as part of my ED continuing education. We learned some procedures on cadavers- personally, I did not find it useful. I learned better from the book and videos. I am not doubting the efficacy of the cadaver lab in learning for some students, but it is negligent generalization to say that ALL students will not do well in a school sans cadavers. After all, it is memorization not particle physics- you have to do what works best for you.

 

[JoshUNCW]

I just wanted to chime something a friend of mine who's currently in med school at UNC said. The first week of classes she had her hands inside of a cadaver doing dissection. This was, for her, an amazing experience and her first true realization that was different from every other profession, doing something few get to do, and was truly overwhelmed with the opportunity. I think that it would be an extremely valuable and symbolic experience to work with a real cadaver and I'm extremely excited for my own opportunity.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I just wanted to chime something a friend of mine who's currently in med school at UNC said. The first week of classes she had her hands inside of a cadaver doing dissection. This was, for her, an amazing experience and her first true realization that was different from every other profession, doing something few get to do, and was truly overwhelmed with the opportunity. I think that it would be an extremely valuable and symbolic experience to work with a real cadaver and I'm extremely excited for my own opportunity.

I'm going to a school with full-blown, old-school dissection, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask if she will feel the same after 3 months of slicing fat and 'black stuff' (mid 90's Simpson reference, woot, woot). Most pre-meds put a huge emphasis on dissection, love it initially, and then say it gets pretty monotonous. Having said that ... I'm still pumped.

 

[J1515]

Cadaver dissection is an integral part of learning. Sure many people say they don't remember anything they dissected years ago, but those boring awful dissections and torturous practicals contribute (be it consciously or subconsciously) to being able to read CTs, MRIs, angiography, and plain films down the line. In our anatomy lab they had a ton of films we could look at. I don't think I would've gotten such a solid grasp of the 3D orientation of the organs, vessels, and bones had I not had an actual body to correlate with. Argue all you want, but you remember best by doing.

My closing argument: I would never attend a medical school without cadavers (preferably dissection, but at the very least prosection). I'd wait a year and reapply if necessary.

 

[AMEHigh]

I'm going to a school with full-blown, old-school dissection, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask if she will feel the same after 3 months of slicing fat and 'black stuff' (mid 90's Simpson reference, woot, woot). Most pre-meds put a huge emphasis on dissection, love it initially, and then say it gets pretty monotonous. Having said that ... I'm still pumped.

I didn't mind anatomy lab. I'm very glad that we were able to dissect and work in small groups with our professors right there to answer questions. I think it's an invaluable experience. Many of my classmates are now complaining that they miss lab because lecture all day, everyday gets boring. I don't really miss it, but at the time it was somewhat enjoyable and obviously a great learning tool. I know everyone is different though.

 

[DocArmy]

It would be great if we had prosected cadavers. It gets old spending 3 hours dissecting out fat to try to study for the last hour. IMO

 

[HardToStarboard]

Cadaver dissection is an integral part of learning. Sure many people say they don't remember anything they dissected years ago, but those boring awful dissections and torturous practicals contribute (be it consciously or subconsciously) to being able to read CTs, MRIs, angiography, and plain films down the line. In our anatomy lab they had a ton of films we could look at. I don't think I would've gotten such a solid grasp of the 3D orientation of the organs, vessels, and bones had I not had an actual body to correlate with. Argue all you want, but you remember best by doing.

My closing argument: I would never attend a medical school without cadavers (preferably dissection, but at the very least prosection). I'd wait a year and reapply if necessary.

I fully agree with your closing argument. I just found out that some schools don't have cadaver labs (in the non-trad forum). I'd heard about this at school and honestly thought it was a joke.

I can't imagine having to learn anatomy without having taken out my cadaver's heart or brain or removed her gallstones. Doing a laminectomy to get at her spinal cord or accidentally cutting the "million dollar nerve" (thenar) or tracing her pacemaker down to the heart or the countless times we've rolled her body over are things I will never forget. I've got years of clinical experience and I know I'll get an amazing education to become a fine doctor, but learning these fundamentals on an actual cadaver are more than foundational; they are a rite of passage.

I say boo to med schools for whatever drove them to this. I hope it's a trend that changes. I honestly feel pity for the students being robbed of something so incredible. Sure, there are days where I'd rather be doing something more productive that cleaning out fat and fascia, but this woman who gave the last thing she could - an intimate academic gift - will never be forgotten, nor will the lessons she showed us.

 

[munchymanRX]

Dont take this the wrong way but AZCOM, having ~25 cadavers for 250 students divided into 2 groups so students are only present for HALF the cuts, is worse then no cadaver lab.

This is how nova does it too. That's why I just use the time to look at prosections and study my atlas.

 

[smitherz]

Damn. This community college has a gross lab:
http://www.gadsdenstate.edu/academics/science/human-gross-anatomy-lab.php

 

[vandyam]

Why does this keep getting bumped up? Weird.

On the other hand, I was unaware that LECOM-E (PBL) and LECOM-SH (all) did not get to use cadavers. Even weirder.

 

[HardToStarboard]

Why does this keep getting bumped up? Weird.

On the other hand, I was unaware that LECOM-E (PBL) and LECOM-SH (all) did not get to use cadavers. Even weirder.

I bumped it because I was very surprised that this actually happens. Apparently it's DO schools though. There may be an MD program that doesn't have cadaver labs, but I haven't found it. Either way, shame on all of them.

 

[Lewist02]

I recently interviewed in Erie and this was never mentioned. Did they give reasons for doing this? Will we be able to go to the anatomy lab with LDP students if we wish?
I am very angry that I was not told about this at my interview. As has been previously stated, learning anatomy from a book is not the same as seeing it on a person given all the variations that exist.

When I interviewed at Erie 2 years ago, my interviewers told us that the reason that PBL was not going to be doing a cadaver dissection was because there is a growing shortage of bodies available at an increasing cost to medical schools, and that many medical schools will be transitioning to virtual labs.

Take that for what you will...I don't know if that is just a BS answer they give to not wanting to dish out extra money, but either way, it is probably not fair to allow one program an actual dissection and another one a virtual dissection. But that's just my opinion.

On the other hand, I had a friend who is now in rotations who did PBL at LECOM-Erie and she did very well on boards/on exams so perhaps it was not all that bad?

 

[DrCalculi]

There may be an MD program that doesn't have cadaver labs, but I haven't found it.

Some med schools in the UK - including Oxford - don't require dissection anymore. There are a few MD schools in the US that have joined this trend: UCLA, UCSF, Alabama etc. The vast majority of med schools (MD and DO) still use dissection.

 

[jinobi]

Whadya mean UCLA doesn't do it, they still do at Geffen (as of last year at least).

 

[DrCalculi]

Whadya mean UCLA doesn't do it, they still do at Geffen (as of last year at least).

Okay, your correction stands. I thought they followed UCSF.

 

[deleted245139]

I was in the inaugural LECOM-E PBL class to go 100% distance learning for anatomy. I was furious initially... I (and several others) asked about cadaver access in the interview and was assured we would be able to utilize the cadaver lab. In practice, we were bared from it. We we allowed 'enrichment sessions' only - that is to say, an hour in the lab, supervised with an anatomy professor and only at the request of several students.

that said... one day we went in for an enrichment on the thorax. I walked in with a buddy, we popped out the heart and lungs, and rifled off all the structures, attachments, clinical relevance, ect. We looked at each other and just said "hm...".

I was one of the more out-spoken people against this at LECOM, but I can attest first hand that much like every other aspect of medical school, if you put in the effort, you can succeed. On the whole our class (PBL) performed on par with the lecture students on all tests (better on some). It was an adjustment to be sure, but the above posters are right... when you add the menial task of fat and fascia resection to anatomic variation, dissection of one cadaver does not an anatomy expert make. Does it enhance the learning experience? I'm sure it does. Does it hurt to not have it? I don't think so.

This is anecdotal but I think what i'm trying to do is waylay some fears about such a program. From a guy who was ADAMANTLY against this, I found success and haven't had a single regret from the program.

Thanks!