A New Medical School Ranking System: Social Mission Score

[Tatastrophy]

Hahaha and you sound like someone compensating mentally for not being able to get into a decent medical school. Have fun at your unranked medical school, and don't worry about my chances of getting into medical school . (It's hilarious when people think I'll be talking with this kind of tone on my PS or during my interviews)

that is pretty funny that you'd confuse what I said with that. Good joke.
Try and see what your definition of "decent medical school" becomes after your interviews and then if you still have such a low opinion of Tulane, make sure and never request me when you make like House and get shot by your patient
xxoo

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[dingyibvs]

dont waste ur breath on him, he reminds me of an equally elitist guy from a couple years back. the guy had a 3.9 and 39, and he was rejected everywhere including all his in state schools till very late. he did get into washu in the end (poor ksmi ) but he had to sweat some bullets. the point is, guys like him will be rewarded for their intellectual capacities, but they'll make things much harder for themselves and never get what they feel like they deserve due to theit attitude.

 

[bamtuba]

dont waste ur breath on him, he reminds me of an equally elitist guy from a couple years back.

Guess they could be related

 

[Sentinel]

Social mission? More like, which students couldn't match into good specialties/couldn't get jobs in desirable locations. Is it a surprise that Penn, Duke, Harvard, Cornell, Columbia, Hopkins, and Northwestern are all at the bottom of the PCP list? Or that Penn, Columbia, Duke, Stanford, and Hopkins are on the bottom of the "social mission" ranking? Course not. I'll argue though that if we had to choose between Johns Hopkins or Morehouse College, society would be better off without Morehouse.

Thanks though, I'll definitely be using this list (albeit inversely from how the authors wanted us to use it) when deciding which med school to go to.

No, that's because the students who go to what you call the "top tier" schools are usually not as interested in primary care as kids who go to their local state schools and want to give back to their own communities. Think about it - if you are going into primary care which will pay significantly less than a specialty - the $ difference in going to a private school vs. a public school is huge. That's just one reason why the rankings in this new report would show a large rift between private and public schools. It's not because they didn't get into a competitive specialty. If you think that you've got a really microscopic tunnel vision on factors that influence life decisions.

Hahaha and you sound like someone compensating mentally for not being able to get into a decent medical school. Have fun at your unranked medical school, and don't worry about my chances of getting into medical school . (It's hilarious when people think I'll be talking with this kind of tone on my PS or during my interviews)

Sorry, was I too truthful for you? Don't worry, you didn't get in anywhere that I'm even applying to. Rankings certainly aren't the most important factor to me, and I said nothing to give evidence that I believe a school's rank is the only factor that should be considered when choosing a medical school.

And I don't consider being in the top 43% of an applicant pool as a "great achievement" - are you kidding me, the average intelligence of a pre-med is pretty sad.

Wow you really are an elitist aren't you? Even by your ******ed measure, I'd say I got into a pretty good school - so would it carry weight with you if I said I agreed with tatas? Probably not, because I'm sure you'll find someway to belittle me as well. People like you who feed off putting down other people to make themselves look better, rather than actually trying to do well for themselves is one of the reasons I was ashamed to call myself a premed. If your opinions carried any credence on their own, you wouldn't have to rebuke others' opinions with the most juvenile "na na I'm smarter than you" arguments - especially when you haven't even proven you are "smarter".

And also - you fail at statistics. The average applicant to medical school is in the top 95+% (I forget the exact statistic) in the country. And those that get in are even more stratospheric in their intelligence. You seem to have a very awkward definition for intelligence.

And hey tatastrophy - don't compare him to House! At least House is a genius.

Then they should call it the "Underserved and Minority Care" score. Or they could even call it the "Primary Care" score. In calling it a "Social Mission" score, the authors belittle the social missions of medical schools whose primary purpose is not to create primary care physicians for underserved areas, but have other important social missions.

I particularly found Fiddlergirl's post funny. USHS ranks low because their graduates serve the military. Are they not serving an important social mission as well?

To put it another way, if USNews changed their research ranking to "Best Medical Schools" ranking, then I would be similarly annoyed. You call your ranking what it is without value judgements. Yes, the USNews research ranking is based mostly on NIH funding (including all affiliates, something the authors of this study did not take into account when discussing research funding), and as such I think it is currently the best reflection of which schools are top schools for research. If students believe that the schools that do the most research are prestigious or better or whatever nonsense the trolls of pre-allo want to say, that's up to them. That's some value judgment that people are making based on the USNews research ranking. But that doesn't mean USNews should call itself the "prestige" ranking or the "socially best" ranking. Call a spade a spade, without creating a judgemental name.

If someone thinks they have a better ranking, they can call it their own "Research Ranking". Just like these authors could have called their ranking a "Primary Care" ranking. The USNews rankings are very poor for Primary Care, so they're mostly ignored anyway.

As a white man who grew up very disadvantaged in mostly minority neighborhoods, I'm also continually insulted by the entire discussion about URMs. Diversity is not measured in skin color. But that's a discussion for elsewhere.

I'm 100% behind you on both these points neuronix. When I read the article, I was initially very excited because I thought they'd found a great way to figure out how different schools do practice social medicine. Then I realized it was about which school helps URMs the most and has a big focus on primary care. That doesn't make this a bad list, or the schools at the top bad schools - but I agree with you that calling them "Social Mission" schools puts a very skewed definition on Social Medicine.

It's definitely nice to have a different view on listing schools; I just wish they'd have done a better job framing what the list was actually talking about...

 

[GoSpursGo]

It's not?




You're just saying that because your future MCAT score is probably going to be lower than my future MCAT score and also you're probably going to go into family medicine! Happy?




Reply to what? What exactly did you say in your post that's worth replying to? It's all about numbers and rankings to me? They're not unimportant to me, but you're certainly exaggerating to claim they are everything to me.

Not going to bother with discussing all of this ranking nonsense because it's been done before. However, I'm just going to say that FM=/=bad student. A fourth year at my school who had a 250+ with multiple awards CHOSE to go into FM because that's what she'd always wanted to do. Some people just know what they want to do, and it isn't always derm/neurosurgery/rad onc/etc.

 

[Hirudo]

I'm just about sure that Penner is posting ironically. At least I like to think he is.

 

[FlowRate]

I often forget that the only way to have a conversation on forums is to post (at least slightly) exaggerated opinions. With people like Penner, all reasonable and meaningful posts get overlooked. He's a good example of someone who is a troll both IRL and on the forums. Requesting ban.

 

[NotAsking4Much]

You chose to go to Yale which is in freaking New Haven - you probably care about rankings way more than I do.

I chose to go there because of it's system. It fits well with my learning style. Name me another school that has optional exams.

I CANNOT stand elitist people. That and people who think they're entitled to everything. Just makes my blood boil.

 

[Penner]

No, that's because the students who go to what you call the "top tier" schools are usually not as interested in primary care as kids who go to their local state schools and want to give back to their own communities. Think about it - if you are going into primary care which will pay significantly less than a specialty - the $ difference in going to a private school vs. a public school is huge. That's just one reason why the rankings in this new report would show a large rift between private and public schools. It's not because they didn't get into a competitive specialty. If you think that you've got a really microscopic tunnel vision on factors that influence life decisions.

So you're saying people who go into top tier schools are less likely to want to give back to their own communities, and a large part of that is because the high price of private institutions will dissuade those who are interest in primary care from attending? Morehouse Medical School, which is number one on the "social mission" rankings, estimates a student budget of $62k. Meharry Medical College, which is #2, is also a private institution and has tuition + fees alone of $35k. Howard is also private - the first three on the list are private schools. Yet, UCLA and UCSF are both #62 and #61 respectively on the primary care output rankings. I don't see the "large rift" you speak of - many of the schools at the top of the "primary care output" rankings are private, unranked schools. I never said not being able to get into competitive specialties was the only reason these schools on the top of the "primary care output" rankings are there, but it's definitely the most important reason. Of course the amount of debt the graduates have is a factor - I would never argue against this. But to think that the major reason that these schools have such a high primary care output is that the students have a greater sense of "social mission" seems extremely naive to me.

The problem I have with the paper is that it seems to ignore the glaring confounding factors - the foremost one being the significantly high correlation between low matching "ability" of the applicants and the likelihood of ending up in primary care. Having low Step 1 scores is very correlated with ending up in family medicine, but having low Step 1 scores is probably not correlated at all with having a high social mission conscience (do you believe having a strong desire to help the underprivileged is correlated with lower intelligence? I certainly don't think so). So to say that matching in primary care specialties shows one's commitment to helping society seems quite oversimplified.

Wow you really are an elitist aren't you? Even by your ******ed measure, I'd say I got into a pretty good school - so would it carry weight with you if I said I agreed with tatas? Probably not, because I'm sure you'll find someway to belittle me as well. People like you who feed off putting down other people to make themselves look better, rather than actually trying to do well for themselves is one of the reasons I was ashamed to call myself a premed. If your opinions carried any credence on their own, you wouldn't have to rebuke others' opinions with the most juvenile "na na I'm smarter than you" arguments - especially when you haven't even proven you are "smarter".

And also - you fail at statistics. The average applicant to medical school is in the top 95+% (I forget the exact statistic) in the country. And those that get in are even more stratospheric in their intelligence. You seem to have a very awkward definition for intelligence.

I'm actually really good at statistics (sorry for being egotistic once again, but I don't think my statistics/econometrics professors would disagree with this statement). Can you post a link to the paper that says the average applicant to medical school is in the top 95% (by the way, what does that even mean? What definition/measure of intelligence are you referring to?) of the country? I would find that very shocking, as I don't believe myself to be in the top .5% of the country, but I'm pretty confident I'm in the top 10% of medical school applicants.

And hey tatastrophy - don't compare him to House! At least House is a genius.

You're right - I'm certainly not a genius. Nor are 99.99% of medical school applicants though.

 

[Penner]

I chose to go there because of it's system. It fits well with my learning style. Name me another school that has optional exams.

I CANNOT stand elitist people. That and people who think they're entitled to everything. Just makes my blood boil.

Aren't school with simply pass/fail systems pretty much equivalent? Do you really think you would have trouble passing or have to work harder to pass a class at, say, UCLA, UCSD, or UCI?

 

[taciturngirl]

Yup, that low MCAT score saved you.

People like you are why we penn grads get such a bad rap. also, if you're going to be an *****hole on the internet, remember that adcoms (especially with the aid of mdapps) read sdn and can occasionally link handles to actual candidates.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I'm actually really good at statistics (sorry for being egotistic once again, but I don't think my statistics/econometrics professors would disagree with this statement). Can you post a link to the paper that says the average applicant to medical school is in the top 95% (by the way, what does that even mean? What definition/measure of intelligence are you referring to?) of the country? I would find that very shocking, as I don't believe myself to be in the top .5% of the country, but I'm pretty confident I'm in the top 10% of medical school applicants.

pretty sure you need a real MCAT score to even start comparing yourself to others.

 

[Neuronix]

People like you are why we penn grads get such a bad rap.

You know, we Penn med students also get a bad rap for the arrogant students who slip through the cracks. Though, I do take it seriously as a student interviewer to try to weed out that type of applicant...

 

[jbz24]

dont waste ur breath on him, he reminds me of an equally elitist guy from a couple years back. the guy had a 3.9 and 39, and he was rejected everywhere including all his in state schools till very late. he did get into washu in the end (poor ksmi ) but he had to sweat some bullets. the point is, guys like him will be rewarded for their intellectual capacities, but they'll make things much harder for themselves and never get what they feel like they deserve due to theit attitude.

People like him get put in their place come clinical rotation time. Residents don't tolerate that.

 

[jbz24]

No, that's because the students who go to what you call the "top tier" schools are usually not as interested in primary care as kids who go to their local state schools and want to give back to their own communities. Think about it - if you are going into primary care which will pay significantly less than a specialty - the $ difference in going to a private school vs. a public school is huge. That's just one reason why the rankings in this new report would show a large rift between private and public schools. It's not because they didn't get into a competitive specialty. If you think that you've got a really microscopic tunnel vision on factors that influence life decisions.

Many people at top tier schools go into primary care. Also going into primary care is not the only way to give back to your community. I do feel that a larger percentage of those from state schools end up in primary care because their options are limited coming from such schools. I'm not going to argue the merits of going to a higher ranked school again, but it's the sad truth that more prestigious schools put you in a better position for residency, including an easier time matching into more competitive fields.

 

[TheFlashMD]

Many people at top tier schools go into primary care. Also going into primary care is not the only way to give back to your community. I do feel that a larger percentage of those from state schools end up in primary care because their options are limited coming from such schools. I'm not going to argue the merits of going to a higher ranked school again, but it's the sad truth that more prestigious schools put you in a better position for residency, including an easier time matching into more competitive fields.

This may be true. But don't discount the people who went to public school to give them MORE options. Less debt doesn't force you into the higher paying specialties (Money while a motvator, is not always the sole motivator, even within medicine). For instance, some people actually really enjoy working with kids. And we all know peds doesn't pay well AT ALL.

 

[Penner]

pretty sure you need a real MCAT score to even start comparing yourself to others.

I'm pretty sure being in the top ~20% of pre-meds at Penn makes me at least in the top 10% of pre-meds in the country, and I'm pretty sure MCAT score is not the only valid form of comparison among pre-meds. In fact, since one's MCAT score is very largely a function of how much one studies for the test, it's probably not an accurate measure at all - anyone can score higher than a 38 by just studying for it for a year or something ridiculous. But if you really want, I can PM you my score in October.

 

[causalinference]

I'm pretty sure being in the top ~20% of pre-meds at Penn makes me at least in the top 10% of pre-meds in the country, and I'm pretty sure MCAT score is not the only valid form of comparison among pre-meds. In fact, since one's MCAT score is very largely a function of how much one studies for the test, it's probably not an accurate measure at all - anyone can score higher than a 38 by just studying for it for a year or something ridiculous. But if you really want, I can PM you my score in October.

None of that changes the fact, however, that until you take the MCAT and receive a high score, your admission to any medical school is one big giant question mark--a "maybe" at best. And I can assure you that no one here will want to know your score in October because, well, no one here cares about you (or your tenuous ambitions).

 

[NickNaylor]

This thread is chock full of hilarity. It started off pretty slow, but I'm enjoying the ride.

 

[bigman225]

I'm pretty sure being in the top ~20% of pre-meds at Penn makes me at least in the top 10% of pre-meds in the country, and I'm pretty sure MCAT score is not the only valid form of comparison among pre-meds. In fact, since one's MCAT score is very largely a function of how much one studies for the test, it's probably not an accurate measure at all - anyone can score higher than a 38 by just studying for it for a year or something ridiculous. But if you really want, I can PM you my score in October.

The fact that you think "anyone" can get a 38, and that studying for a year would somehow ensure a 99th percentile score shows you know nothing about preparing for or taking the MCAT.

Clearly being in the top 20% of your class at Penn makes you a genius and auto-admit to top 20s, though.

The biggest liability in your medical school application won't be your undergraduate institution, your grades or your MCAT score. It will be your arrogance.

 

[Penner]

The fact that you think "anyone" can get a 38, and that studying for a year would somehow ensure a 99th percentile score shows you know nothing about preparing for or taking the MCAT.

Clearly being in the top 20% of your class at Penn makes you a genius and auto-admit to top 20s, though.

The biggest liability in your medical school application won't be your undergraduate institution, your grades or your MCAT score. It will be your arrogance.

Haha if you say so .

I could have sworn people were saying the exact same thing to me while I was in high school and using collegeconfidential. Except I ended up getting into 4 of the 5 schools I interviewed for, including MIT, Princeton, Harvard, and Northwestern.

 

[Penner]

None of that changes the fact, however, that until you take the MCAT and receive a high score, your admission to any medical school is one big giant question mark--a "maybe" at best. And I can assure you that no one here will want to know your score in October because, well, no one here cares about you (or your tenuous ambitions).

Mmm right, I'm real worried about getting into any medical school at all. Yup, I see that those who had my GPA/ECs from similar institutions on MDapps had such difficulty getting into medical schools. And yes, even though I was near the top of all of my science classes at Penn, and I've been scoring 35+'s on practice MCATs without even having finished content review, you're totally right - I'm for sure going to bomb the MCAT and end up getting under a 30 and will get rejected everywhere. Yeah, that's happening, right after I tell all my admissions officers I interview with how superior I believe myself to be. Wow, yes that is exactly what I'll do (because I'm as dumb as you think I am?).

Oh no, no one on SDN cares about me? What, is that supposed to make me feel sad or something? Good work.

 

[Neuronix]

Alright people, knock off the personal attacks. Additional personal bickering will lead to the closing of this thread and may lead to individual user action. I deleted the last two posts as they added nothing of value to this discussion. Consider that your warning.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I'm pretty sure being in the top ~20% of pre-meds at Penn makes me at least in the top 10% of pre-meds in the country, and I'm pretty sure MCAT score is not the only valid form of comparison among pre-meds. In fact, since one's MCAT score is very largely a function of how much one studies for the test, it's probably not an accurate measure at all - anyone can score higher than a 38 by just studying for it for a year or something ridiculous. But if you really want, I can PM you my score in October.

no i'm pretty sure it doesn't. the issue at hand is that you're not set to apply. once you have all your numbers, then spout off about your supposed brilliance.

so the MCAT is not an accurate measure of comparison but being in the top fifth of a school makes you automatically the top tenth percentile? by your logic any idiot can just study his butt off and get some A's. pfft.

 

[NickNaylor]

Haha if you say so .

I could have sworn people were saying the exact same thing to me while I was in high school and using collegeconfidential. Except I ended up getting into 4 of the 5 schools I interviewed for, including MIT, Princeton, Harvard, and Northwestern.

So because you got accepted into four top schools you're credentialed enough to talk about anything, right? And everything you did must be the best way to get into these schools, right?

Please. That Penn education might make you a brilliant individual, but clearly their personal growth and development programs are sorely lacking.

 

[Penner]

So because you got accepted into four top schools you're credentialed enough to talk about anything, right? And everything you did must be the best way to get into these schools, right?

Please.

Hey, I was just trying to say that just because I'm arrogant as hell on SDN doesn't mean I act the same way during interviews. That's all I was trying to say. I have huge respect for you.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

So because you got accepted into four top schools you're credentialed enough to talk about anything, right? And everything you did must be the best way to get into these schools, right?

Please. That Penn education might make you a brilliant individual, but clearly their personal growth and development programs are sorely lacking.

i'm more confused about why penn isn't in that list of 5... do they not interview? that might explain a thing or two..

 

[Penner]

no i'm pretty sure it doesn't. the issue at hand is that you're not set to apply. once you have all your numbers, then spout off about your supposed brilliance.

so the MCAT is not an accurate measure of comparison but being in the top fifth of a school makes you automatically the top tenth percentile? by your logic any idiot can just study his butt off and get some A's. pfft.

"Of a school" - no, not "a school," of MY school, b****.

 

[NickNaylor]

Hey, I was just trying to say that just because I'm arrogant as hell on SDN doesn't mean I act the same way during interviews. That's all I was trying to say.

But people WILL see through that. Ultimately its your peers that you should avoid pissing off, not adcoms. These are the people that will be your classmates and, later, your professional colleagues. But hey, if being a tool gets you into a top residency, it's all worth it, right?

A guy in the summer program that I'm in is a very intelligent dude and attends a top 20 undergrad. Yet, less than two weeks into the program, no one likes being around him. Why? Because he acts like a tool to everyone. He might get a great LOR from his supervisor, but at what cost? I imagine you're going to be that guy that everyone avoids like the plague in medical school.

 

[Penner]

i'm more confused about why penn isn't in that list of 5... do they not interview? that might explain a thing or two..

Nope, got in without an interview since Penn doesn't have the resources to interview all its applicants. But 3 of the 4 schools that I got into with an interview have tougher admissions than Penn does, so I don't see the point you're trying to make.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

"Of a school" - no, not "a school," of MY school, b****.

oh i'm sorry is this the part where i'm supposed to be impressed?

Nope, got in without an interview since Penn doesn't have the resources to interview all its applicants. But 3 of the 4 schools that I got into with an interview have tougher admissions than Penn does, so I don't see the point you're trying to make.

just an interesting factoid i didn't know before. and perhaps its implication on the school's reputation. or disrepute.

 

[Neuronix]

Unfortunately, I felt I had to close this thread after my initial warning did not work. A gentle reminder to our users to use the ignore function for inflammatory users and don't let problem users sidetrack the main discussion. Please use the report function and we will take care of it, thanks.