Harvard Medical School Withdraws From U.S. News Ranking

[deleted1119806]

I don’t think the PD’s use the exact ranking as a metric, ie No. 3 is better than No.10. Rather a group of schools historically enjoy the boost from their perceived prestige. I doubt this list will change when schools drop out of US News. What’s gonna happen is that the consensus of which schools are T5 and which schools are t10 will be more stable. I think it’s more of a tier system.

Tier 1a: HMS, UCSF, Hopkins, Stanford and Penn
Tier 1b: Columbia, WashU, Yale, Duke, Mayo and Michigan
Tier 2: NYU, Cornell, Pitt, UW, UCLA, UCSD, Vandy, Northwestern, Chicago and Mt Sinai.
Tier 3: BU, Emory, and the like

I don’t think within the same tier, the reputation differs at all among the schools. So in a way, US News ranking is artificially granular.

Lol you just made your own rankings? Because PD scores if you wanna use them don’t really align with this

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[mdphdhopefully]

I don’t see anything.

this is fake news for sure--only proof i've seen is a screenshot on reddit of a "columbia.medschool" instagram account post with 10 likes (in french maybe?):

edit: just looked up the insta account and it might actually be legit? I can't tell. If so this appears to be a leaked internal communication to students

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

this is fake news for sure--only proof i've seen is a screenshot on reddit of a "columbia.medschool" instagram account post with 10 likes (in french maybe?):

edit: just looked up the insta account and it might actually be legit? I can't tell. If so this appears to be a leaked internal communication to students

Basically NYU played the game too hard and broke it. Now all the cool kids are quitting the game. NYU got so much money from the NIH for Covid research and then they got so much money for Hurricane Sandy.

 

[tossaway000999888]

Basically NYU played the game too hard and broke it. Now all the cool kids are quitting the game. NYU got so much money from the NIH for Covid research and then they got so much money for Hurricane Sandy.

To be fair the rankings game was always broken, it seems like most of this is in response to other factors

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

To be fair the rankings game was always broken, it seems like most of this is in response to other factors

For sure, but when a new kid starts to challenge the establishment, all hell broke loose.

 

[MDMechEngr]

Kool. All remaining schools get to move up one in ranking. LOL.

 

[senecca]

this is fake news for sure--only proof i've seen is a screenshot on reddit of a "columbia.medschool" instagram account post with 10 likes (in french maybe?):

edit: just looked up the insta account and it might actually be legit? I can't tell. If so this appears to be a leaked internal communication to students

The people of the greatest country on the earth are terrified of standardized tests . I don’t know why . Columbia says they are withdrawing because usnews give too much importance to standardized test scores. How pathetic. These universities claim that the standardized test scores are only one among 30 criteria, still they have so much aversion for standardized tests and the high achievers. They make the only one available objective standardized criteria OPTIONAL (SAT). It is so disturbing to know even the Adcoms have this attitude. If standardized tests are evil, MCAT scores of 507, 516, 524 all are same, why are we even asking the students to take them and waste their time ? If standardized tests are bad , all tests are bad, let’s not test the students for GPAs as well. Get rid of the GPAs all together . Anyway, according to the geniuses in America. stats don’t matter.

One random person with 3.95 and 524 didn’t have any success this cycle. That’s right. He is probably one among top top 500 in the country approximately. We have 22,000 seats and that he couldn’t get one BECAUSE WE HATE HIGH ACHIEVERS. I don’t know him but my heart bleeds for him. Another person with 3.95 and 526 had only two interviews and a Top 50 school waitlisted him. Probably he is among top 200 in the country. This is how pathetic and comical our admission system.

We have 22000 seats and roughly 55000 applicants. The approximate acceptance rate should be 40%. But what we do? Instead of processing 55000 applications within a few weeks , we screw up the admission process, make students to submit 1 million applications, we take one full year to process them keeping the applicants completely in dark. We end up with 2% acceptance rate and a lot of highly qualified applicants falling through the crack, like the two I mentioned. The applicants are forced to check their email multiple times every single day for one year . Some poor kids choose to go through this torture for even three cycles. The nation owes an apology to those poor kids.

But, we pat ourselves in the back as the best country in the world, ridiculing and demonizing the high achievers instead of celebrating them.

 

[Med Ed]

Anyway, according to the geniuses in America. stats don’t matter.

Stats do matter, but the reality is that beyond a certain threshold they don't matter very much. Unfortunately that realization is at odds with the USNWR ranking methodology, which is basically reputation + selectivity + research funding = rank. "Selectivity" is derived almost entirely from average MCAT (13% of total score) and average GPA (6% of total score). So if you want to climb the rankings you are incentivized to focus on those metrics at the exclusion of all other factors.

After so many years of being subjected to such an arbitrary system, I can understand the desire to extract oneself from its clutches. Institutions should have the liberty to define their own priorities and markers of success, no?

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Stats do matter, but the reality is that beyond a certain threshold they don't matter very much. Unfortunately that realization is at odds with the USNWR ranking methodology, which is basically reputation + selectivity + research funding = rank. "Selectivity" is derived almost entirely from average MCAT (13% of total score) and average GPA (6% of total score). So if you want to climb the rankings you are incentivized to focus on those metrics at the exclusion of all other factors.

After so many years of being subjected to such an arbitrary system, I can understand the desire to extract oneself from its clutches. Institutions should have the liberty to define their own priorities and markers of success, no?

In the long run, stats don’t matter at all in one’s success in any field. I just wish that they don’t vilify high stats and convey the message more clearly to applicants what a successful profile should look like. It’s like they don’t shine a light on the rules of the game and then they ask you to play it.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

The people of the greatest country on the earth are terrified of standardized tests . I don’t know why . Columbia says they are withdrawing because usnews give too much importance to standardized test scores. How pathetic. These universities claim that the standardized test scores are only one among 30 criteria, still they have so much aversion for standardized tests and the high achievers. They make the only one available objective standardized criteria OPTIONAL (SAT). It is so disturbing to know even the Adcoms have this attitude. If standardized tests are evil, MCAT scores of 507, 516, 524 all are same, why are we even asking the students to take them and waste their time ? If standardized tests are bad , all tests are bad, let’s not test the students for GPAs as well. Get rid of the GPAs all together . Anyway, according to the geniuses in America. stats don’t matter.

One random person with 3.95 and 524 didn’t have any success this cycle. That’s right. He is probably one among top top 500 in the country approximately. We have 22,000 seats and that he couldn’t get one BECAUSE WE HATE HIGH ACHIEVERS. I don’t know him but my heart bleeds for him. Another person with 3.95 and 526 had only two interviews and a Top 50 school waitlisted him. Probably he is among top 200 in the country. This is how pathetic and comical our admission system.

We have 22000 seats and roughly 55000 applicants. The approximate acceptance rate should be 40%. But what we do? Instead of processing 55000 applications within a few weeks , we screw up the admission process, make students to submit 1 million applications, we take one full year to process them keeping the applicants completely in dark. We end up with 2% acceptance rate and a lot of highly qualified applicants falling through the crack, like the two I mentioned. The applicants are forced to check their email multiple times every single day for one year . Some poor kids choose to go through this torture for even three cycles. The nation owes an apology to those poor kids.

But, we pat ourselves in the back as the best country in the world, ridiculing and demonizing the high achievers instead of celebrating them.

It’s definitely the fault of AAMC. They make the grading of the test so granular and hence everyone tries to outscore everyone. If they can give out the scores in quintile or decentile, then maybe it’s actually quite a useful metric and people will become less obsessed with it. Maybe USNews can just calculate their selectivity less granularly too. The problem is not ranking per se. It’s how we rank that matters.

 

[LizzyM]

One random person with 3.95 and 524 didn’t have any success this cycle. That’s right. He is probably one among top top 500 in the country approximately. We have 22,000 seats and that he couldn’t get one BECAUSE WE HATE HIGH ACHIEVERS.

It is not that we hate high achievers. More likely than not he has a toxic personality, lacks empathy, is a poor communicator, fails to make any eye contact during a conversation, is unable to respond to social cues, denigrates others, sees himself as superior to all others, has a chip on his shoulder, is unforgiving of mistakes, carries a grudge, feels that he is persecuted for his academic success, I could go on and on but you get the idea.... there is a reason we do interviews and a reason that 0.2% of the highest achievers won't get an offer.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

It is not that we hate high achievers. More likely than not he has a toxic personality, lacks empathy, is a poor communicator, fails to make any eye contact during a conversation, is unable to respond to social cues, denigrates others, sees himself as superior to all others, has a chip on his shoulder, is unforgiving of mistakes, carries a grudge, feels that he is persecuted for his academic success, I could go on and on but you get the idea.... there is a reason we do interviews and a reason that 0.2% of the highest achievers won't get an offer.

I thought 12% of high stats don’t get accepted.

 

[senecca]

In the long run, stats don’t matter at all in one’s success in any field. I just wish that they don’t vilify high stats and convey the message more clearly to applicants what a successful profile should look like. It’s like they don’t shine a light on the rules of the game and then they ask you to play it.

If stats don’t matter in one’s success in any field , volunteering, clinical experience like drawing blood, patient transport, scribing , essays, recommendations won’t matter at all too. But I totally agree with your comment on the nature of the admission process. The admission criteria and process should be simple, transparent, straightforward, predictive and less strenuous. I don’t understand why the admissions process need to be so secretive and stressful. A ninth grade medical school aspirant should know exactly what it takes to get into a medical school. He shouldn’t waste 8-10 years of his life chasing the medical school and get disappointed.

I believe that aamc should take over the admission process. Let the students submit only one application, get interviewed by aamc , get the application evaluated and assign a score. Based on the score and individual preference , an algorithm can assign the students to a specific medical school. Every thing can be finished in two to three weeks. Not the whole year. Aamc should upload the entire applications, assigned scores and colleges, so that the future applicants will know what it takes.

 

[senecca]

It is not that we hate high achievers. More likely than not he has a toxic personality, lacks empathy, is a poor communicator, fails to make any eye contact during a conversation, is unable to respond to social cues, denigrates others, sees himself as superior to all others, has a chip on his shoulder, is unforgiving of mistakes, carries a grudge, feels that he is persecuted for his academic success, I could go on and on but you get the idea.... there is a reason we do interviews and a reason that 0.2% of the highest achievers won't get an offer.

With all due respect Madam, you can as well request for a psychiatrist evaluation and recommendation for every student BEFORE APPLYING. Having M1 and M2 students to evaluate the applications and interview the applicants is the worst possible way of doing it. You can do all kinds of vetting , but do it in open and simple manner.

 

[IlDestriero]

What will med school deans use now to measure their D___s?

Girth?

 

[DarkBluMage]

With all due respect Madam, you can as well request for a psychiatrist evaluation and recommendation for every student BEFORE APPLYING. Having M1 and M2 students to evaluate the applications and interview the applicants is the worst possible way of doing it. You can do all kinds of vetting , but do it in open and simple manner.

What school is having M1/M2’s interview medical school applicants? Have never heard of this. Student panels aren’t official interviews.

 

[LizzyM]

With all due respect Madam, you can as well request for a psychiatrist evaluation and recommendation for every student BEFORE APPLYING. Having M1 and M2 students to evaluate the applications and interview the applicants is the worst possible way of doing it. You can do all kinds of vetting , but do it in open and simple manner.

I don't know where you get the idea that M1 and M2 students evaluate applications and interview applicants. That is certainly not happening at my school. Those tasks are taken on my faculty. Accreditation group, LCME, requires that admission decisions be made by a group of faculty members in order for a school to obtain and maintain its status as an accredited medical school.

The problem with one review and one score is that different schools have different missions and that is not taken into account when selecting applicants from a single applicant pool. If I'm looking to admit applicants who are likely to return to areas similar to their hometowns and serve people in their home state which is underserved, I'm not looking for the top scholars in the country who aspire to be leaders in academic medicine and on the cutting edge of new medical discoveries.

I thought 12% of high stats don’t get accepted.

@senecca was making reference to 1 in 500 which is where I got 0.2%

 

[senecca]

What school is having M1/M2’s interview medical school applicants? Have never heard of this. Student panels aren’t official interviews.

Many schools. This is first hand information.

 

[senecca]

I feel that we can have a very simple medical school admission process as follows.

1. Let AAMC define all the criteria and weight. Like MCAT 70%, Audio interview 10%, video interview 5%, essays and recommendations 10% etc. Because of grade inflation/deflation , we can set a qualifying gpa like 3.0. Publish the criteria for everyone . Similarly we can set a qualifying number of hours for clinical and non clinical volunteering capped at like 100 hours or so.
2. Let the students take mcat, preview, Casper and sign up for an interview with aamc. Let the applicants write 2-3 essays in a proctored environment just like taking mcat. Get everything completed and have all scores (all criteria) ready before applying.
3. Let everyone submit only one application in May with all scores and also submit the college preference.
4. Medical schools can allocate the seats according to different buckets like IS, OOS, school mission, black, Hispanic, white etc.
5. Then an automated process can assign the students to a specific school according to their total score and college preference.

The entire process need not take more than a week. If we gather this data and publish on the AAMC website after every cycle, future applicants will know what exactly it takes to get into a specific medical school or any medical school.

If a school’s mission is to produce 50 physicians to serve rural area or something like that, they can make it legal contract with the students who express interest by picking that specific bucket with 50 seats.

 

[senecca]

I don't know where you get the idea that M1 and M2 students evaluate applications and interview applicants. That is certainly not happening at my school. Those tasks are taken on my faculty. Accreditation group, LCME, requires that admission decisions be made by a group of faculty members in order for a school to obtain and maintain its status as an accredited medical school.

The problem with one review and one score is that different schools have different missions and that is not taken into account when selecting applicants from a single applicant pool. If I'm looking to admit applicants who are likely to return to areas similar to their hometowns and serve people in their home state which is underserved, I'm not looking for the top scholars in the country who aspire to be leaders in academic medicine and on the cutting edge of new medical discoveries.

@senecca was making reference to 1 in 500 which is where I got 0.2%

Many schools use students to evaluate the applications and interview applicants. This is first hand information.

What I meant was, a person who scored 524+ should be in the top 500 at the national level.

Regarding recruiting physicians to serve in the underserved area, just make it a legal contract with interested applicants. Guessing by looking at their essays, extracurriculars and interviews is not a dependable method. People can play you or just change their mind.

 

[IlDestriero]

The best schools know they are the best, and so does everyone else. The same is true for elite quaternary hospitals.
My children’s hospital has been contemplating dropping out of US News for years now.

 

[Med Ed]

Medical schools can allocate the seats according to different buckets like IS, OOS, school mission, black, Hispanic, white etc.

With regard to those last three, you say "bucket," the lawyers will say "quota," and they'll have a field day.

Anyway, actively waiting for the Rapture is probably a better use of your time than pondering a future where all medical schools hand evaluation authority to the AAMC.

 

[IlDestriero]

Many schools use students to evaluate the applications and interview applicants. This is first hand information.

What I meant was, a person who scored 524+ should be in the top 500 at the national level.

Regarding recruiting physicians to serve in the underserved area, just make it a legal contract with interested applicants. Guessing by looking at their essays, extracurriculars and interviews is not a dependable method. People can play you or just change their mind.

I feel that we can have a very simple medical school admission process as follows.

1. Let AAMC define all the criteria and weight. Like MCAT 70%, Audio interview 10%, video interview 5%, essays and recommendations 10% etc. Because of grade inflation/deflation , we can set a qualifying gpa like 3.0. Publish the criteria for everyone . Similarly we can set a qualifying number of hours for clinical and non clinical volunteering capped at like 100 hours or so.
2. Let the students take mcat, preview, Casper and sign up for an interview with aamc. Let the applicants write 2-3 essays in a proctored environment just like taking mcat. Get everything completed and have all scores (all criteria) ready before applying.
3. Let everyone submit only one application in May with all scores and also submit the college preference.
4. Medical schools can allocate the seats according to different buckets like IS, OOS, school mission, black, Hispanic, white etc.
5. Then an automated process can assign the students to a specific school according to their total score and college preference.

The entire process need not take more than a week. If we gather this data and publish on the AAMC website after every cycle, future applicants will know what exactly it takes to get into a specific medical school or any medical school.

If a school’s mission is to produce 50 physicians to serve rural area or something like that, they can make it legal contract with the students who express interest by picking that specific bucket with 50 seats.

Why would a school give up its admission decisions to a 3rd party? The resident match doesn’t even do this. Life isn’t a meritocracy, get used to it.
It’s not rocket science what it takes to get in. It’s not even a secret. As for fine tuning a class, that’s what the admissions committee does. They want a class that is broad, diverse, and qualified. Fortunately for them, and unfortunately for some, there are more qualified applicants than positions.
As for the super whiz kid that didn’t get in, I guarantee you they had red flags and I’m sure they know what they are, unless it’s a personality disorder. Those patients usually lack insight.

 

[Med Ed]

It’s not rocket science what it takes to get in. It’s not even a secret.

Exactly. GPA, MCAT, clinical exposure, service, decent PS, decent LORs. Add research if you want a research school, add more service if you want a mission-driven school.

It may be hard, but it's not complicated.

 

[senecca]

With regard to those last three, you say "bucket," the lawyers will say "quota," and they'll have a field day.

Anyway, actively waiting for the Rapture is probably a better use of your time than pondering a future where all medical schools hand evaluation authority to the AAMC.

This is what we do now, we don’t explicitly call it a bucket or quota but Holistic admission, so that the lawyers cannot have a field day.

One girl says that she was almost high school drop out, didn’t take SAT or ACT fearing the obvious outcome, so went to community college and did a music major . Then she discovered she wanted to be a doctor. Had 3.2 undergrad GPA , 500 mcat, minimal clinical experience, no volunteering and no research. She got into a MD school. I am asking all of you holistic experts, what did this girl bring to the table more than the ones with 3.95 and 524, 3.95 and 526? These two gentlemen had everything including years of research and thousands of clinical and non clinical experience. Indulge me and educate me. This is why I demand for a open admission system, because every one will behave themselves.

 

[senecca]

Why would a school give up its admission decisions to a 3rd party? The resident match doesn’t even do this. Life isn’t a meritocracy, get used to it.
It’s not rocket science what it takes to get in. It’s not even a secret. As for fine tuning a class, that’s what the admissions committee does. They want a class that is broad, diverse, and qualified. Fortunately for them, and unfortunately for some, there are more qualified applicants than positions.
As for the super whiz kid that didn’t get in, I guarantee you they had red flags and I’m sure they know what they are, unless it’s a personality disorder. Those patients usually lack insight.

Why would a school give up its admissions to a third party? Yes, they wouldn’t. Because, in America, every individual and entity think they are an independent country and they are not answerable to anyone. They call it freeeeeeerdom !! The government is so impotent, they don’t do anything except dispensing money to everyone. We have no control over anyone , anything or even our own border . That’s why we end up with 1 million applications for 22000 seats and 55000 applicants. WE DONT BELIEVE IN COMING TOGETHER, COMPROMISE FOR THE COMMON GOOD. Because it is Freeeeeeerdom. We expect the applicants to show humility, honesty, integrity, intelligence, patience, be ready give up their dignity etc. BUT WE THE MEDICAL SCHOOLS DONT EVEN WANT TO LOOK INSIDE AND TAKE A HARD LOOK AT OURSELVES, acknowledge the shortcomings and do something about it. No. Because we are the greatest country on the earth and we can’t do anything possibly wrong. For your information, ALL OTHER COUNTRIES DO EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE PROPOSED. Even the ones with 20000 seats and 2 millions applicants do an honest open admission lasting only 3 weeks. Everyone get a seat at a school according to their score and preference.

The two super whiz kids you rejected from everywhere BECAUSE OF THE SUPPOSEDLY RED FLAGS, did you guys care to inform them? No, that’s below you, they are not worthy of a response. FYI, they took the humiliation on their chest with grace, they are not even bitter BUT PREPARING HUMBLY TO APPLY AGAIN AND GO THROUGH THIS HUMILIATING TORTUROUS PROCESS YET AGAIN.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Why would a school give up its admissions to a third party? Yes, they wouldn’t. Because, in America, every individual and entity think they are an independent country and they are not answerable to anyone. They call it freeeeeeerdom !! The government is so impotent, they don’t do anything except dispensing money to everyone. We have no control over anyone , anything or even our own border . That’s why we end up with 1 million applications for 22000 seats and 55000 applicants. WE DONT BELIEVE IN COMING TOGETHER, COMPROMISE FOR THE COMMON GOOD. Because it is Freeeeeeerdom. We expect the applicants to show humility, honesty, integrity, intelligence, patience, be ready give up their dignity etc. BUT WE THE MEDICAL SCHOOLS DONT EVEN WANT TO LOOK INSIDE AND TAKE A HARD LOOK AT OURSELVES, acknowledge the shortcomings and do something about it. No. Because we are the greatest country on the earth and we can’t do anything possibly wrong. For your information, ALL OTHER COUNTRIES DO EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE PROPOSED. Even the ones with 20000 seats and 2 millions applicants do an honest open admission lasting only 3 weeks. Everyone get a seat at a school according to their score and preference.

The two super whiz kids you rejected from everywhere BECAUSE OF THE SUPPOSEDLY RED FLAGS, did you guys care to inform them? No, that’s below you, they are not worthy of a response. FYI, they took the humiliation on their chest with grace, they are not even bitter BUT PREPARING HUMBLY TO APPLY AGAIN AND GO THROUGH THIS HUMILIATING TORTUROUS PROCESS YET AGAIN.

It looks like you are really wounded by this process. I agree with a lot of what you said. But I don’t think this process is intended to humiliate anyone. This is just the reality of our society. If you want to join a union for plumbers, you have to go through a similar process. All professions are self-regulated to an extent. One difference between the medical profession here and that in other countries is that we are mostly not state actors. In the UK and most European countries, the whole medical field is run by the government, from medical school all the way to hospitals and clinic. So they can have a very unified path. Here, this kind of unification will never happen. Tbh, I wouldn’t want this kind of oversight from the government anyway.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Many schools use students to evaluate the applications and interview applicants. This is first hand information.

They may be escorting candidates during interviews and sharing information during lunches and recruiting events. But first-year students need to worry about passing first year, and no adcom I know involves first years (med or other health professional programs).

Now, can adcoms get some insights from underclassmen during deliberations? Yes, that's possible. Do M1 or M2 students give admissions staff or committees feedback on candidates? It is fair game.

Do M1 or M2 students review applications? I would be very surprised. Maybe they can watch deliberations, but I don't recall any student involvement in screening.

If the school writes its by-laws to put M1 and M2 students on voting committees for the school, if LCME, COCA, or whoever allows it, great. But that would be a big surprise to me.

 

[DarkBluMage]

Many schools. This is first hand information.

I call bs. No school uses M1/2 students to perform interviews. The faculty and administration do that. The most that students will do is a panel to give applicants insight into the school. They’re not doing interviews for a prospective class.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

I call bs. No school uses M1/2 students to perform interviews. The faculty and administration do that. The most that students will do is a panel to give applicants insight into the school. They’re not doing interviews for a prospective class.

Penn.

 

[DarkBluMage]

Penn.

What exactly are they doing? Initial interviews? Follow up interviews? Are there only student interviews? What is the purpose of their interviews? Saying they do interviews with no details is deceiving. A schools medical class is representative of the school itself. I doubt the school is giving so much power and deference to students to admit who they want based on their opinion alone.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

... One girl says that she was almost high school drop out, didn’t take SAT or ACT fearing the obvious outcome, so went to community college and did a music major. Then she discovered she wanted to be a doctor. Had 3.2 undergrad GPA , 500 mcat, minimal clinical experience, no volunteering and no research. She got into a MD school.

I am asking all of you holistic experts, what did this girl bring to the table more than the ones with 3.95 and 524, 3.95 and 526? These two gentlemen had everything including years of research and thousands of clinical and non clinical experience. Indulge me and educate me. This is why I demand for a open admission system, because every one will behave themselves.

Can we have their applications? It's useless to play with theoretical profiles. Even prehealth advisors get case studies involving redacted real student applications to get an insight into application review.

Pay attention to assumptions and biases: are there age differences (anyone do a DIY postbac or SMP)? Any athletes? Prestige of high schools and colleges? Different distances traveled? Learning issues or disabilities? School lists?

I give the benefit of the doubt to 6 Texas adcoms who rejected the student with great stats (see Lawsuit thread). Without the application, it is futile to make a decision.

The only quotas I know of are related to in-state slots and/or guaranteed slots for MD/PhD or early admissions tracks. University legal does a great job training us all about Fisher and educational law.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

What exactly are they doing? Initial interviews? Follow up interviews? Are there only student interviews? What is the purpose of their interviews? Saying they do interviews with no details is deceiving. A schools medical class is representative of the school itself. I doubt the school is giving so much power and deference to students to admit who they want based on their opinion alone.

One student interview (all MS1’s) and one faculty interview. Both weigh equally. It was 2019, when I applied. Not sure if it’s the same now. But it does happen.

 

[DarkBluMage]

One student interview (all MS1’s) and one faculty interview. Both weigh equally.

The student interview definitely doesn’t weigh equally than the one with faculty. Either way, as long as the applicant is getting a faculty interview then I would consider it a fair process. I personally wouldn’t be interested in performing an interview if my school did that. M1/2’s have enough on their plate as students than to deal with administrative responsibilities.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Why would a school give up its admissions to a third party? Yes, they wouldn’t. Because, in America, every individual and entity think they are an independent country and they are not answerable to anyone. ...

Actually the answer in my opinion is easier: University governance.

Unless you were to take over all the University Boards of Trustees, I can only see this happening in Florida.

And you don't mess with Texas like that.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

The student interview definitely doesn’t weigh equally than the one with faculty. Either way, as long as the applicant is getting a faculty interview then I would consider it a fair process. I personally wouldn’t be interested in performing an interview if my school did that. M1/2’s have enough on their plate as students than to deal with administrative responsibilities.

Did you have an interview at Penn? I did and they told us it’s weighed equally. So weird you have to be right on everything.

 

[DarkBluMage]

Did you have an interview at Penn? I did and they told us it’s weighed equally. So weird you have to be right on everything.

That’s a hilarious thing for you to say lmbo. They can say it weighs equally but if you have a good interview with a student but an ok/not great interview with faculty then you’re definitely not getting that benefit of a doubt for an acceptance. Flip it and you’re more likely to get in with a good interview with faculty. No admission committee is weighing a students opinion over a faculty member for an interview, regardless of if they say it weighs equally. If you believe something like that would happen then I have an ocean in the middle of the desert to sell you.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

That’s a hilarious thing for you to say lmbo. They can say it weighs equally but if you have a good interview with a student but an ok/not great interview with faculty then you’re definitely not getting that benefit of a doubt for an acceptance. Flip it and you’re more likely to get in with a good interview with faculty. No admission committee is weighing a students opinion over a faculty member for an interview, regardless of if they say it weighs equally. If you believe something like that would happen then I have an ocean in the middle of the desert to sell you.

Man.. I don’t care. I am already an MS3. That’s what they told me when I interviewed 4 years ago.

 

[Med Ed]

This is what we do now, we don’t explicitly call it a bucket or quota but Holistic admission, so that the lawyers cannot have a field day.

Nope. If we could use quotas there would be a lot more Black doctors right now.

One girl says that she was almost high school drop out, didn’t take SAT or ACT fearing the obvious outcome, so went to community college and did a music major . Then she discovered she wanted to be a doctor. Had 3.2 undergrad GPA , 500 mcat, minimal clinical experience, no volunteering and no research. She got into a MD school. I am asking all of you holistic experts, what did this girl bring to the table more than the ones with 3.95 and 524, 3.95 and 526?

Pics or she didn't happen.

 

[IlDestriero]

Why would a school give up its admissions to a third party? Yes, they wouldn’t. Because, in America, every individual and entity think they are an independent country and they are not answerable to anyone. They call it freeeeeeerdom !! The government is so impotent, they don’t do anything except dispensing money to everyone. We have no control over anyone , anything or even our own border . That’s why we end up with 1 million applications for 22000 seats and 55000 applicants. WE DONT BELIEVE IN COMING TOGETHER, COMPROMISE FOR THE COMMON GOOD. Because it is Freeeeeeerdom. We expect the applicants to show humility, honesty, integrity, intelligence, patience, be ready give up their dignity etc. BUT WE THE MEDICAL SCHOOLS DONT EVEN WANT TO LOOK INSIDE AND TAKE A HARD LOOK AT OURSELVES, acknowledge the shortcomings and do something about it. No. Because we are the greatest country on the earth and we can’t do anything possibly wrong. For your information, ALL OTHER COUNTRIES DO EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE PROPOSED. Even the ones with 20000 seats and 2 millions applicants do an honest open admission lasting only 3 weeks. Everyone get a seat at a school according to their score and preference.

The two super whiz kids you rejected from everywhere BECAUSE OF THE SUPPOSEDLY RED FLAGS, did you guys care to inform them? No, that’s below you, they are not worthy of a response. FYI, they took the humiliation on their chest with grace, they are not even bitter BUT PREPARING HUMBLY TO APPLY AGAIN AND GO THROUGH THIS HUMILIATING TORTUROUS PROCESS YET AGAIN.

I don’t tell the failed partner applicants why I reject them either. The answer is obvious. There were better applicants. That’s it.
It doesn’t matter why they were better. Good luck.
You definitely won’t like it as you progress because stats go out the window when everyone is essentially the same. Do I want to train this person? Is this someone I can see being here for years? Why/why not? Do I think they would make a good long term fit as a partner? What are their goals and how will they achieve them here? What are they bringing to the group? Not to mention what is the current make up of the group and what can we do to make sure we reflect society and our patients? Nothing transparent there.

 

[Goro]

I call bs. No school uses M1/2 students to perform interviews. The faculty and administration do that. The most that students will do is a panel to give applicants insight into the school. They’re not doing interviews for a prospective class.

Mine uses OMSIIs.

 

[DarkBluMage]

Mine uses OMSIIs.

Why?

 

[Moko]

I call bs. No school uses M1/2 students to perform interviews. The faculty and administration do that. The most that students will do is a panel to give applicants insight into the school. They’re not doing interviews for a prospective class.

I can recall multiple schools where I was interviewed by M1/M2's. Granted this was about a decade ago, but it did happen at least until very recently (or is still their practice).

That’s a hilarious thing for you to say lmbo. They can say it weighs equally but if you have a good interview with a student but an ok/not great interview with faculty then you’re definitely not getting that benefit of a doubt for an acceptance. Flip it and you’re more likely to get in with a good interview with faculty. No admission committee is weighing a students opinion over a faculty member for an interview, regardless of if they say it weighs equally. If you believe something like that would happen then I have an ocean in the middle of the desert to sell you.

At my school, I have not personally seen an applicant get accepted without positive reviews from all of their interviewers. An 'okay'/'not great' interview does not cut it when we have so many excellent candidates to choose from. So in this respect, the student interviewers are functionally given similar weights when they are utilized. Just my thoughts.

 

[Goro]

Why?

We believe in giving students a say in how the med is run.

It's interesting and rare to see a thread where SDNers decompensate before our eyes. NOT referring to you, Blu!

High st

 

[senecca]

I call bs. No school uses M1/2 students to perform interviews. The faculty and administration do that. The most that students will do is a panel to give applicants insight into the school. They’re not doing interviews for a prospective class.

To give you a couple of schools, pitt and Wayne state. There are more.

 

[senecca]

Can we have their applications? It's useless to play with theoretical profiles. Even prehealth advisors get case studies involving redacted real student applications to get an insight into application review.

Pay attention to assumptions and biases: are there age differences (anyone do a DIY postbac or SMP)? Any athletes? Prestige of high schools and colleges? Different distances traveled? Learning issues or disabilities? School lists?

I give the benefit of the doubt to 6 Texas adcoms who rejected the student with great stats (see Lawsuit thread). Without the application, it is futile to make a decision.

The only quotas I know of are related to in-state slots and/or guaranteed slots for MD/PhD or early admissions tracks. University legal does a great job training us all about Fisher and educational law.

“Can we have their applications?” Yes, absolutely !!! That’s what i exactly want. Every school should spell out their criteria, how they evaluated every applicant and post the entire applications along with their scores, decision and justification. Holistic or not, this move will straighten out every one.

As per my understanding, holistic review means, if two candidates have similar stats but one has better essays or extracurriculars but a little lower stats, you can go with him. But 3.3 , 500 getting in but 3.95 524, 526 return empty handed means it is atrocious.

One adcom member from one medical school posted anonymously about how they evaluate the applications to select applicants for an interview. Only 15% weight given for mcat, 15% weight for gpa but 20% for drawing blood, taking vitals and transporting patients and 30% for something the applicants HAVE NO CONTROL OVER. This is what happening under the hood in the name of holistic admissions. But, NO ONE CARES.

 

[senecca]

Actually the answer in my opinion is easier: University governance.

Unless you were to take over all the University Boards of Trustees, I can only see this happening in Florida.

And you don't mess with Texas like that.

You don’t have to take over the university, just the admission. As I always say, let’s learn from other countries rather than burying our heads in the sand.

 

[senecca]

One student interview (all MS1’s) and one faculty interview. Both weigh equally. It was 2019, when I applied. Not sure if it’s the same now. But it does happen.

Exactly same with pitt and Wayne statr

 

[senecca]

That’s a hilarious thing for you to say lmbo. They can say it weighs equally but if you have a good interview with a student but an ok/not great interview with faculty then you’re definitely not getting that benefit of a doubt for an acceptance. Flip it and you’re more likely to get in with a good interview with faculty. No admission committee is weighing a students opinion over a faculty member for an interview, regardless of if they say it weighs equally. If you believe something like that would happen then I have an ocean in the middle of the desert to sell you.

Let me ask you one thing. Can’t these medical schools and aamc and get together and come up with a uniform selection process? Can’t they come to an agreement to have only 4 or 5 essays FOR ALL SCHOOLS AND EVALUATE THEM HOWEVER THEY WANT? Do we really need to FORCE the applicants to apply for 30-40 schools, each requiring their own 5-6 essays? Don’t you think it is so stupid and childish? Can’t everyone get together and AGREE ON SOMETHING? That’s what we are looking for in our applicants, right? Collaboration, teamwork and problem solving? Isn’t it?

 

[DarkBluMage]

We believe in giving students a say in how the med is run.

It's interesting and rare to see a thread where SDNers decompensate before our eyes. NOT referring to you, Blu!

High st

Definitely like to see that. I think that requires a great level of trust to give to students for the admissions process. It’s nice to see some schools really integrate students into their school culture.