A note about Affirmative action

[Icarus05]

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It seems to me that a lot of people are under the false impression that we live in a truly egalitarian society. What these individuals fail to understand is that we live in a hierarchal society in which some are favored over others. Of course, when we are recipients of such favors we deem them justified (like getting into Med. School because of ones residency). However, if a favor is bestowed upon another person we cry foul and are quick to claim injustice.
I will like to say that I am sick and tired of everyone complaining that URM?s are taking ?their spots? in medical schools. I am tired of hearing ridiculous stories of URM?s getting into medical schools with an MCAT score of 17 and a GPA of 2.0. Inherent in these arguments are racist assumptions about all URM?s. It seems everyone feels that every URM is a lazy a$$, who does not put in any effort and gets into medical school because of their race. URM?s all feel that white people owe them something and must receive a free ride at the expense of whites. They are highly incompetent and incapable of making good doctors (I believe we have all heard the marvelous story of that black guy who gets in with AA and then kills a patient. Of course we all know that white doctors are never sued for malpractice or accidentally kill their patients). Everyone thinks that every URM they encounter in the medical profession or medical school it there because of AA. I for one have no idea where people get off on their little self-righteous pedestals making overly simplified generalizations about a whole group of people. What really burns my beef is the superior attitude (not to mention the complete arrogance) with which these people freely convict minorities. They hide behind the guise of truly wanting a colorblind system that is based on merits alone, when the truth is that secretly they hope that if all fails at least based on their residency, EC?s, LOR?s, personal statement they will get into medical school. They realize that a high MCAT and GPA do not necessarily translate into being a good doctor, yet they have the gall to point their accusing fingers at other and claim just because of a couple of points they don?t deserve to be there. Forget about the guy with the 39/3.9 who did not get in, he had the personality of a door knob, and would not make a good doctor but me with my 33/3.8 will make a better doctor because I am more personable.
Anyway, the moral of this rant is everyone out here is busting their ass just as hard as the next guy and at the end of the day some of us will come out smelling like roses and others will not. Instead of worrying about how someone is going to take your precious spot worry about your own sh**t. I mean when it comes down to it its every man for himself and God for us all. Please let us not allow ourselves to drown in intellectual laziness?

 

[MoosePilot]

I understand where you're coming from, but you've got to understand where others are coming from.

I don't jump onto these threads because there's no point to them. However, I grew up on food stamps and standing in line at the church down the street for big blocks of cheese and jars of peanut butter. I was the first person in my family to finish college and I did it 100% on scholarships and financial aid. Yet as far as I can tell, I don't get any preference in med school admissions.

In a world where they could look at obstacles and background rather than any other factor which might represent obstacles and background, why don't they?

 

[Thearchitect]

THis is a battle that no one will when. People already have this preconceived notion about minorities as the OP stated and it's hard to change that. I for one am not trying to. I never once thought that I got into med school because I am an URM. I got in because I worked hard to get here. When we get accepted to a top school it's because of AA but I have yet to see people complain about all the other non-urm that get into med school with the same stats. (check out all the low gpa v high mcat threads and vice versa. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion about me. Those who know me tip their hats to me and those who don't judge. That's life. Life has dealt me a difficult hand and I played it to the best of my ability. In the end god blessed me and many others and no one can take that away.

Nothing changes the reality that 3/4 of URM admits got there via their skin color, not merits. Statistically, it means that's most likely how you got in where you did. Want the proof?

http://www.aaos.org/wordhtml/amicus.pdf

I'm sure you bucked the trend, though.

 

[monopolova]

I understand where you're coming from, but you've got to understand where others are coming from.

I don't jump onto these threads because there's no point to them. However, I grew up on food stamps and standing in line at the church down the street for big blocks of cheese and jars of peanut butter. I was the first person in my family to finish college and I did it 100% on scholarships and financial aid. Yet as far as I can tell, I don't get any preference in med school admissions.

In a world where they could look at obstacles and background rather than any other factor which might represent obstacles and background, why don't they?

Preach on! Preach on! Though my pigmentation may not speak as much, I too had it rough living in Milwaukee's inner city. In my years as an undergraduate, I have seen minorities who obviously have it better than me (they live in the suburbs, carry cell phones, drive nice cars). Yet, just because of the color of their skin, they would be presumed to be underprivelaged. This is the point of my frustration with affirmitive action. Fine -- set up a program that gives grants to those who prove to be hard workers in the face of hard times. But giving a leg up to someone based on the color of their skin is crap!

 

[IllinoisStudent]

I strongly advise everyone to stop posting on this thread. There is no way you can convince anyone on this forum that AA and promoting diversity is good. Otherwise, this thread will keep goin on like "its sad to be an Asian" thread.

 

[monopolova]

I strongly advise everyone to stop posting on this thread. There is no way you can convince anyone on this forum that AA and promoting diversity is good. Otherwise, this thread will keep goin on like "its sad to be an Asian" thread.

Meh, it doesn't hurt. Give it what you got. What else would you rather talk about? Another damn "what school should I apply to" thread? 😀

 

[Zweihander]

I'm selling 10 ft. poles, by the way. $2.99 a pop. PM me for details.

 

[MoosePilot]

At this point I agree with IllinoisStudent and this is intended as my last post in the AA threads.

I do encourage folks to read the briefing prepared by AAMC. It actually taught me a lot and made me less opposed to AA than I was previously.

http://www.aaos.org/wordhtml/amicus.pdf

 

[DrThom]

I strongly advise everyone to stop posting on this thread. There is no way you can convince anyone on this forum that AA and promoting diversity is good. Otherwise, this thread will keep goin on like "its sad to be an Asian" thread.

Explain to me how AA helps to "promote diversity". I mean, there are enough people of all different races with good enough stats to get into medical school so diversity should be inherent. Does this have anything to do with "the MAN" I keep hearing about and how I should stick something to him?

 

[N-toxicologist]

...If you are white, asian and indian and can't get into medical school it is because you are a loser not because of affirmative action.

I am against AA because to give a leg up to one group inherently means to discriminate against another. To define an URM is to define an Over-RM. What this all means to me, is URM's in general stand a better chance of getting into med school with lower stats and that ORM's must compete amongst themselves in a higher stats bracket (assuming we are allowing X amount of ORM's and reserving X amount of slots for URM's). Hence, in a given med school class, we are to assume that any URM has lower stats and therefore has to work doubly hard to prove that they have a right to be there. With the huge applicant pool of ORM's with 4.0 and 35's, where does that leave the Asian with a 3.5 and a 29? Post-bacc, probably.

That being said, numbers are not everything, and I have to hold onto the belief that those who truly want to enter this profession have something to offer it. So I will not bitch and whine that I lost "my spot" based on my race or someone else's, nor will I finger point and try to guess who "doesn't really belong." Yes, the numbers game sucks (for everybody), but I believe (perhaps too optimistically) that other things are taken into consideration, and that AA (in this case) is just to give some people the chance to sell themselves beyond their apps.

 

[Thearchitect]

At this point I agree with IllinoisStudent and this is intended as my last post in the AA threads.

I do encourage folks to read the briefing prepared by AAMC. It actually taught me a lot and made me less opposed to AA than I was previously.

http://www.aaos.org/wordhtml/amicus.pdf

Use their raw data; that's all that is useful. AAMC is one of the most biased, racist, classist institutions I've ever seen, and their conclusions tend to reflect that disposition.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Yes, to say we have too little of your kind to one applicant ("diversity") is to say we have too much of your kind to another applicant.

I understand the OPs desire for respect. Unfortunately, she does not see the fact you can not have both pity through AA and respect. I don't think she will ever understand the Faustian agreement she makes when she accepts preferential treatment based on her race. Unfortunately she'll be very angry and disgusted at the lack of respect for a very long time.

 

[Icarus05]

Ryo-Ohki , On what evidence do you conclude that I am a woman and Black. Nowhere in my post did I make mention of any of these characterstics. I find it interesting that you will asume these things about me. It gives me much needed insight into your thought processes...

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

And nowhere in my post did I say you were black. Based on your vitriol, I do think you are a URM seeking respect.

And now, based on you mentioning black out of nowhere, I do think you are black.

You sound like a girl. If I am wrong, I apologize.

 

[Blake]

Ryo-Ohki , On what evidence do you conclude that I am a woman and Black. Nowhere in my post did I make mention of any of these characterstics. I find it interesting that you will asume these things about me. It gives me much needed insight into your thought processes...

Welcome to SDN 🙁

 

[papertiger]

AA should be based completely on your economic status rather than your race. With the current system, a rich black person with decent stats would have a easier time getting into a school than a poor white or asian person with great stats.

It also seems that certain people care about AA so much, that they should rather go into law or politics instead of whining to each other.

 

[SoCalRULES!!!!!]

I am against AA because to give a leg up to one group inherently means to discriminate against another. To define an URM is to define an Over-RM. What this all means to me, is URM's in general stand a better chance of getting into med school with lower stats and that ORM's must compete amongst themselves in a higher stats bracket (assuming we are allowing X amount of ORM's and reserving X amount of slots for URM's). Hence, in a given med school class, we are to assume that any URM has lower stats and therefore has to work doubly hard to prove that they have a right to be there. With the huge applicant pool of ORM's with 4.0 and 35's, where does that leave the Asian with a 3.5 and a 29? Post-bacc, probably.

That being said, numbers are not everything, and I have to hold onto the belief that those who truly want to enter this profession have something to offer it. So I will not bitch and whine that I lost "my spot" based on my race or someone else's, nor will I finger point and try to guess who "doesn't really belong." Yes, the numbers game sucks (for everybody), but I believe (perhaps too optimistically) that other things are taken into consideration, and that AA (in this case) is just to give some people the chance to sell themselves beyond their apps.

Like I said, if you can't get into medical school, it has nothing to do with AA, it is because you are a loser. It just ain't that difficult. There are only a handful of URM in medical school. If you were that one in a thousand candidate that did miss out due to AA, rather than the 999 others that are losers, I am glad. I don't want no loser students hanging with me in the wards.

 

[SpiritiualDuck]

Socal, you're wrong when you write, "if you can't get into medical school, it has nothing to do with AA, it is because you are a loser. It just ain't that difficult."

Getting into medical is difficult. I'm assuming you're just starting the process. And a person is not a loser because they may have been unsuccessful. If you do not find success at the end of this process, i'll be curious to see how you rationalize it. If you're alread in, I hope you become less critical of those that haven't found success. Getting is difficult because there are so many hoops that we must jump through and the number of applicants applying went up last year. Every year many, many qualified applicants don't get in.

And I'm a strong supporter of diversity amongst applicants and medical students. However, I think socioeconomics is a greater of success in life. People from impoverished, difficult backgrounds have many obstacles. We should give credit to those that have triumphed inspite of those obstacles.

 

[N-toxicologist]

Like I said, if you can't get into medical school, it has nothing to do with AA, it is because you are a loser. It just ain't that difficult. There are only a handful of URM in medical school. If you were that one in a thousand candidate that did miss out due to AA, rather than the 999 others that are losers, I am glad. I don't want no loser students hanging with me in the wards.

For the record, you are misinterpreting what I said, but thanks for reitierating your ignorance (read the post below your response to mine).

Now, where's my ten foot pole? I'm done with this.

 

[MoosePilot]

I may be ignorant, but at least I was able to get into med school without whining about URMs.

Well I guess that proves the easy part.

 

[velo]

I understand where you're coming from, but you've got to understand where others are coming from.

I don't jump onto these threads because there's no point to them. However, I grew up on food stamps and standing in line at the church down the street for big blocks of cheese and jars of peanut butter. I was the first person in my family to finish college and I did it 100% on scholarships and financial aid. Yet as far as I can tell, I don't get any preference in med school admissions.

In a world where they could look at obstacles and background rather than any other factor which might represent obstacles and background, why don't they?

Couldn't agree more, I think we should "level the playing field" but I think we are giving preference based on the wrong factors. I don't think adcom's are necessarily racist, I just think that a disproportionally large percentage of URMs come from impoverished backgrounds, and that makes it much more difficult to be a competitive candidate. Economic obstacles are EXTREMELY difficult to overcome-- if your family cannot help you financially its much more challenging to get through college and put up those nice impressive numbers (GPA/MCAT) your competition have, let alone have impressive ECs. ECs are done during FREE-time and if you're paying (loaning) your way through school you probably have a job, and that's going to cut down on free time.

If someone, regardless of skin color, is able to come from a family at the poverty level and turn themselves into a reasonably competitive med school candidate, they deserve a second look...they ran that whole way uphill and into the wind...

 

[MoosePilot]

Dude, I am a new resident at UCLA - the best west of the mississippi. Better, than U.W. better than UCSF better that Stanford better that UCSD. Let's see where you end up...oh yeah.... you can't make it because 1% of the spots are going to URM....TOO BAD!

Great, you're at a prestigious residency. You also can't communicate well enough for me to have any faith in you being a doctor - you come across as a complete twerp. You're a credit to that prestigious program. Your appeal to authority completely won me over 🙄

You're the one that said it was easy. Don't bring up your program's prestige to argue against your own point.

 

[Denise00]

I am against AA because to give a leg up to one group inherently means to discriminate against another. To define an URM is to define an Over-RM. What this all means to me, is URM's in general stand a better chance of getting into med school with lower stats and that ORM's must compete amongst themselves in a higher stats bracket (assuming we are allowing X amount of ORM's and reserving X amount of slots for URM's). Hence, in a given med school class, we are to assume that any URM has lower stats and therefore has to work doubly hard to prove that they have a right to be there. With the huge applicant pool of ORM's with 4.0 and 35's, where does that leave the Asian with a 3.5 and a 29? Post-bacc, probably.

That being said, numbers are not everything, and I have to hold onto the belief that those who truly want to enter this profession have something to offer it. So I will not bitch and whine that I lost "my spot" based on my race or someone else's, nor will I finger point and try to guess who "doesn't really belong." Yes, the numbers game sucks (for everybody), but I believe (perhaps too optimistically) that other things are taken into consideration, and that AA (in this case) is just to give some people the chance to sell themselves beyond their apps.

All i have to say to UNtlabrat is now you know how minorities feel and what they have to put go through even with AA and URM in place all you have to do is put what you said in reverse, and we had to go through it alot longer.

 

[Denise00]

Yes, to say we have too little of your kind to one applicant ("diversity") is to say we have too much of your kind to another applicant.

I understand the OPs desire for respect. Unfortunately, she does not see the fact you can not have both pity through AA and respect. I don't think she will ever understand the Faustian agreement she makes when she accepts preferential treatment based on her race. Unfortunately she'll be very angry and disgusted at the lack of respect for a very long time.

AA isn't about pity it's about equality unfortunatly we need laws to help us receive it. Most likely you get preferential treatment everyday of your life with out even realising it. I mean so what if schools have to set aside a certian number of spots for minorities, do you realize that the spots that are not set aside greatly out number the ones that are, just to put things in proportion the spots set aside are like 25 out of 100 (just used to prove point) maybe less. Also someone mentioned something about AA being used for economic status instead of race i am not so against this however AA is not just for poor minorities if to help out entire races. Minorities are under represented it doesn't matter if they are rich or poor. If AA was taken away minorities would become even more so, and the majority would just increase. Just like the rest of you i wish we didn't need AA but i do not fell things have changed enough to take it away.

 

[Fermata]

Another constructive thread on AA...... 🙄

 

[1viking]

Nothing changes the reality that 3/4 of URM admits got there via their skin color, not merits. Statistically, it means that's most likely how you got in where you did. Want the proof?

http://www.aaos.org/wordhtml/amicus.pdf

I'm sure you bucked the trend, though.

thanks for the link. I think it is low-class that the brief would say that the AAMC includes ALL accredited med schools. What about the osteopathic schools? Not accredited med schools? Tell that to the 50,000 or whatever the number is D.O. physicians that are practicing something other than "medicine." I'm not complaining at all--I am just picking apart the brief (who cares if you believe me or not). A brief in court should be as close to perfect as it can get. It is right to pick it apart.

 

[1viking]

For the record, I think AA is much needed. I think that the brief has excellent arguments. It left out some that I think are important, but it was quite complete. I was concerned that the references to AA were all published by the AAMC or AMA. I don't recall seeing a single peer-reviewed journal publication that was cited about AA and education. This was too difficult to overlook. Since our profession is doing its best to be a science, why then the poor citations?

 

[Lindyhopper]

Does anyone know the definition of URM? Does it include native Americans, & hispanics?

 

[SpiritiualDuck]

these threads just seem to continue. If you do a search, it's the same topic over and over. People are on both sides of this argument.

 

[W222]

The institutional racism that AA was meant to overcome has slowly crumbled and almost all universities strive to achieve a high minority student body, frankly it makes them look good and PC. The fact is that being a minority gives you a huge advantage in college and professional school admissions, it is clear when you compare numbers and acceptance rates for equal applicants. My boss even told me that with grad school and med school admissions med schools are trying to take almost every person they can because there is a perceived advantage to a school that has a high URM population. HAS ANYONE EVER THOUGHT THAT AA IS JUST ANOTHER MEANS NOT TO FIX THE PROBLEM? That maybe if you look at inner city poor school systems, few if any ever make it to college, AA or not. And that maybe congress would rather appease the minorities in this country by supporting AA and saving a couple bucks rather than spending billions to save inner-city school systems. AA helps the middle class to upper middle class minority, not the people in southeast DC or Cabreni Green Project Chicago. The false belief that the middle class URM would go back to his/her community and help is false, as a friend who is a URM said, "If I went back then I would probably be discriminated against because I speak differently and it could get me in alot of trouble."

 

[velo]

Also someone mentioned something about AA being used for economic status instead of race i am not so against this however AA is not just for poor minorities if to help out entire races.

Ok, I'm for AA (although I feel it should be based on socioeconomic factors) but I'm definitly against this statement. As I see it, the best argument for AA is that the racial history of our country has unfolded in such a way that a disproportionate percentage of URMs are raised in impoverished or otherwise challenging environments. Therefore we should view their achievments with this in mind. Think of it this way, we view a 3.3 GPA in chemical engineering from MIT differently than we view a 3.8 in psychology from state school X (I'm not bashing state schools...i'm FROM a state school, MIT is harder)...it was much more challenging for the MIT student to achieve a lower GPA...so that is taken into consideration when the file is reviewed.

HOWEVER, I am against AA as a means to help "entire races." There were several so called URMs at my affluent subeurban high school, and they didn't expect preferential treatment, nor did they deserve any. If you take two candidates who were both raised in an affluent environment, with all possible advantages, and then say that one gets extra "points" for being a URM...well, that's racisim...and I don't think many minorities from affluent environments want those "points." Case in point, most of my URM friends from high school checked "prefer not to answer" for race when applying to college.

To sum up...AA=👍 but it should be overhauled to primarily take socioeconomic factors into consideration. my 2?

 

[Farmers]

The original poster is so right. I just started residency at UCLA. Out of over 100 new residents there are no black males, only two black females, and less than five non-white hispanics. It is all whites, asians and indians. Same thing in medical school.


If you are white, asian and indian and can't get into medical school it is because you are a loser not because of affirmative action.

Now, I wonder who you are.

 

[PrettyMz4Christ]

The institutional racism that AA was meant to overcome has slowly crumbled and almost all universities strive to achieve a high minority student body, frankly it makes them look good and PC.

This is not true. As a URM at an Ivy League University I can personally attest to this.

HAS ANYONE EVER THOUGHT THAT AA IS JUST ANOTHER MEANS NOT TO FIX THE PROBLEM? That maybe if you look at inner city poor school systems, few if any ever make it to college, AA or not. And that maybe congress would rather appease the minorities in this country by supporting AA and saving a couple bucks rather than spending billions to save inner-city school systems.

I agree - I do think there should be greater efforts to repair inner city school systems and such, etc. However, once that happens, then what? If you have institutions who are still adverse to accepting these students, what gain has been made?

AA helps the middle class to upper middle class minority, not the people in southeast DC or Cabreni Green Project Chicago.

Again, this is not entirely true. While no question - there are definitely upper/middle class minorities who do benefit from affirmative action, there are TONS of students who are apart of lower middle class/lower class that do beenfit from affirmative action. Case in point: if you check out the recent admission trends from schools like Harvard and Princeton, changes in their financial aid policies (i.e, eliminating loans, etc.) corresponded to a MUCH greater number of minority students matriculating at these universities.
The false belief that the middle class URM would go back to his/her community and help is false, as a friend who is a URM said, "If I went back then I would probably be discriminated against because I speak differently and it could get me in alot of trouble."

Again - no one is saying that all URMS are going to go back to their communities and practice - in fact, why should they even be required to? But let's face it, IT IS CERTAINLY MORE PROBABLE THAT THEY WILL.

And I will always keep saying this:
HOW MANY URMS ARE IN MEDICAL SCHOOL TO BEGIN WITH? YEESH. How many medical schools can even say that they have more then 10-15 URMS in any given class?

I am not saying affirmative action is perfect, but again, I dread the complete opposite.

 

[W222]

I seriously doubt you experienced institutional racism at an Ivy league school. Many of the Ivy leaguers I have met are some of the most left-thinking people in the world. No way these people could ever be called racists. Please explain. You were there, what type of action did you see as racist. Unfortunitely, I think the R term is thrown around hap-hazardly and gets people in alot of trouble. Frankly, I went to an extremely homogenious school and still I never noticed a single instance of what I would call institutional racism.

The main arguement behind AA was that it would benefit those in lower class areas because it would create a stepping stone effect. People who benefitted would in turn go back and help others, and a cycle would begin. Unfortunitely, this never happened and the AAMC is one of the few groups that still claim it has worked this way. They quote some study from the mid-80s of exiting-residents who planned on "giving back". I worked in a free medical clinic and none of the 20 or so physicians working there were minority, the majority of those helping out were retired Docs and residents. I worked in a soup kitchen/clinic/substance abuse house and no one I worked with was URM. All I met were lower to middle class whites who had struggled with similar problems and wanted to share with others.

One med school I am particularly close to has roughly 20-30 URMs in every class, out of 130. 10-15 is not the norm, you can be a URM without being black or latino.

 

[vhawk]

Can anyone honestly tell me that if a black person and a white person had nearly identical apps, for example say the black person was very slightly more qualified, that ANY school in America, even without any hint of AA, would take the white person, at least at a rate higher than just a statistical anomaly, as we know this process can at times be a little random? You say there is institutional racism, I say back it up. Now if you want to argue the fact that URMs TEND to grow up in poorer neighborhoods and have less opportunites, I am not against you, but in that case we need to reassess AA, and award it based on socioeconomic status, not skin color.

 

[vhawk]

Ok, this is going to sound completely racist, and I dont necessarily support it as anything other than an extreme example, but you say that there are a ridiculously low number of URMs in med school, and you attribute this to racism...there are a ridiculously low number of asians in professional sports, but we dont attribute THAT to racism...?

 

[skoop]

If you are white, asian and indian and can't get into medical school it is because you are a loser not because of affirmative action.

i can't believe you're a doctor. if you are, you are a disgrace to the profession. but you do reek of perpetration.

 

[Icarus05]

Can anyone honestly tell me that if a black person and a white person had nearly identical apps, for example say the black person was very slightly more qualified, that ANY school in America, even without any hint of AA, would take the white person, at least at a rate higher than just a statistical anomaly, as we know this process can at times be a little random? You say there is institutional racism, I say back it up .

I can't give a school example off the top of my head because I am not privy to school applications but I believe on the show the apprentice the young black man was more qualified than the man who won. I know this is a silly example, but there is one.

 

[NikkiDeee]

I seriously doubt you experienced institutional racism at an Ivy league school. Many of the Ivy leaguers I have met are some of the most left-thinking people in the world. No way these people could ever be called racists. Please explain. You were there, what type of action did you see as racist. Unfortunitely, I think the R term is thrown around hap-hazardly and gets people in alot of trouble.

Unless you are a member of a minority community that is frequently the target of racism, you could never begin to understand what it's like. So, for you to to be accusatory about using the R term, know what it feels like to experience it . . . oh, you can't! Instead you are making yourself blind to the issue because you want to believe it doesn't exist. A group of left-thinking people doesn't make everyone at that institution that way.

Frankly, I went to an extremely homogenious school and still I never noticed a single instance of what I would call institutional racism.

Do you think "smart people" that are a part of a higher education institution want everyone to notice their acts of racism or descrimination? You are very naive to think that just because you don't see things that means they don't exist. That attitude will get you in trouble with many patients in fact. Again, unless you are a minority you may never fully understand or notice these things.

Check out this link to see racism alive and well (although Northwestern isn't an Ivy Leaguer, it's up there)

http://www.dailynorthwestern.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/05/28/3ed486698b031?in_archive=1

 

[vhawk]

Icarus,

I didnt watch the show, but you may very well be right, I dont actually know. However, I think in the business world AA is a much different topic, and I actually am 100% of the opinion you should be able to hire or fire whomever you want. Thats the benefit of capitalism. If you dont hire the most qualified individuals cause your a bigot, your business wont be successful, and if people know you do this, they are well within their rights to boycott your business/product.

 

[vhawk]

NikkiDee,

Well, if he is naive to think that just because he doesnt see something, that means it doesnt exist, you are also naive to think that just because you do, it does. Just because you or anyone else thinks they were discriminated against or saw someone discriminated against does NOT mean that it happened, and also, just because isolated incidents do occur, does NOT mean there is an "institutional racism."

 

[mochief2000]

I'm black let me let that be know first. A male to be exact. It's not fair? who said so. If I get in with AA who gives a sh**, doesn't mean i'm make it out with AA. I talked with a few black professionals and even in medical school they were judged as if they were only there b/c of AA and if they got a C or F there goes the rumors. Like minorities are the only one's getting F's. We make up like 5% of the accepted students they were roughly 17,000 students give me a damn break. And do I plan on helping my people when i get out, hell yeah. I can relate, **** I'm black. F*** socialeconomic background. I grew up middle class and look at the schools in the white community and look at the ones in the black community. do they look the same? is the quality the same? Since everybody want to throw the numbers, when Barbara walters did the report on this, they sent 2 people, white and black with the same creditials grades, school, experience etc and who got the job each time. ...Hmm let me see... the white! go figure. It aint fair But shi*t. When I walk into a white neighborhood they all look at me like I was sadam, I ain't goin rob u! Society is like that. they helping get in schools. That's it! If there are residents or doctors tell me how my black doctors they work with. now count how many white. Now think how many black doctors got in with AA. NOw think if AA didnt exist. we are talkin about 1 minority in each class.
See ya got me started... PRo-AA

 

[N-toxicologist]

All i have to say to UNtlabrat is now you know how minorities feel and what they have to put go through even with AA and URM in place all you have to do is put what you said in reverse, and we had to go through it alot longer.

Denise00,

Your response doesn't address a thing in my post. Perhaps I'm having problems communicating, or you are vehemently reacting to the first sentence in my post (I'm guessing the latter).

1. I said that AA does an injustice to everybody. As a minority in med school, do you want to be viewed as someone who was admitted just to fill a quota? You cannot deny that there are some who would say that, all based on the color of your skin, although I believe that attitude would be in the minority. Anyone who has been through the process knows that there are EC's, LOR's, volunteer hours, special circumstances, (the list goes on) that are also looked at besides your numbers. I also used some hypothetical example of the Asian who has average numbers, but who is over represented to show how it is unfair to ORM's, so I don't know what you want me to "reverse."

2. Continuing a program like AA in the admissions process does you no favors. In fact, it hurts it and proprogates the attitude that certain minorities are "inferior" and gives you yet more discrimination to hurdle.


3. You seem to have some anger, unless it's habit for you to peck away in bold. If so, I apologize for my assumption. According to you (assuming you did read the whole post), it's okay to discriminate against a new group because you have in the past. That will rid the world of prejudice and beget acceptance. Good job. 🙄

This last one's important:

If you're going to play the race/disadvantaged/discriminated against/ minority card, make sure you don't play it with a minority. This doesn't prove your point at all. In fact, it shows how narrow-minded you are if you truly believe that the only people who are against AA must be white.

 

[Sapps]

http://www.texashatecrime.com/fake_hate_crimes_true_stories.htm

 

[mochief2000]

2. Continuing a program like AA in the admissions process does you no favors. In fact, it hurts it and proprogates the attitude that certain minorities are "inferior" and gives you yet more discrimination to hurdle. posted by UNTlabrat

UNTlabrat
you are one of the ones that think we are inferior. You being reading to many Utopia books. it doesn't exist. fairness doesn't exist, AA is tryin to close the gap, tryin. answer this. If I put u on the olmypic team, does it men u will win a medal. If they put me in medical school, does it mean i will graduate. We all have to pass the same test. Now am i still "inferior".

I'm still cold, don't let me warm up.

 

[Sapps]

Additionally, according to the FBI's statistics, Black Americans are much more likely than any other group to commit hate crimes. You might want to find a different angle for preaching your communist agenda.

 

[Icarus05]

Denise00,

Your response doesn't address a thing in my post. Perhaps I'm having problems communicating, or you are vehemently reacting to the first sentence in my post (I'm guessing the latter).

1. I said that AA does an injustice to everybody. As a minority in med school, do you want to be viewed as someone who was admitted just to fill a quota? You cannot deny that there are some who would say that, all based on the color of your skin, although I believe that attitude would be in the minority. Anyone who has been through the process knows that there are EC's, LOR's, volunteer hours, special circumstances, (the list goes on) that are also looked at besides your numbers. I also used some hypothetical example of the Asian who has average numbers, but who is over represented to show how it is unfair to ORM's, so I don't know what you want me to "reverse."

2. Continuing a program like AA in the admissions process does you no favors. In fact, it hurts it and proprogates the attitude that certain minorities are "inferior" and gives you yet more discrimination to hurdle.


3. You seem to have some anger, unless it's habit for you to peck away in bold. If so, I apologize for my assumption. According to you (assuming you did read the whole post), it's okay to discriminate against a new group because you have in the past. That will rid the world of prejudice and beget acceptance. Good job. 🙄

This last one's important:

If you're going to play the race/disadvantaged/discriminated against/ minority card, make sure you don't play it with a minority. This doesn't prove your point at all. In fact, it shows how narrow-minded you are if you truly believe that the only people who are against AA must be white.

I hate to burst your bubble but with or without AA there are a lot of people who believe minorities are inferior. AA does not propagate the idea that minorities are inferior; it is people who have an agenda to prove this that use AA as a key point. Plus, not every white or Asian person who gets into med school has stellar stats but no one ever chastises such individuals because there is always the assumption that Asians are smart and the white person deserved to be there. What annoys me is that people act as though MCAT?s and GPA are indicative of one?s real intelligence and that they are fair exams. Yet I bet you a lot of people on this board paid Kaplan or Princeton some fine money to coach them to do better on the test. Not to mention all those EK books and other things you invested money in to give you an advantage.
The root of the problem is that we live in a society that constantly perpetuates negative stereotypes about URM?s. I believe every black female character I have ever seen is either the bitch who will stop at nothing to succeed, the slut, or the woman who is always on her man's case, or on welfare etc. Likewise, black men have the privilege of either being the comical side kick, the angry man or some other derivative of black male stereotypes and I am not even going to discuss the spiritual Native American or the saucy Latina/o. The problem is these stereotypes are so overplayed that they have become engrained in the consciousness of mainstream America and most people harbor these racist ideas without even thinking about it. Then to make thing worse they try to use these stereotypes as supporting arguments for their cases.

 

[vhawk]

mochief, I dont understand...are you pro or anti-AA? Also, no, putting me on the olympic team doesnt win me a medal....I have no idea what the point of that is. Guess what, there are thousands of people every year who could make great doctors but dont get the chance, and nearly none of them dont get the chance because of AA. I am not saying AA screws them out of a chance, but even if its just one, and even if its zero, it is still fundamentally flawed and unfair. Asking if I could win a gold medal is ridiculous. Saying the coaches kid got on when, although he was good, there was another guy who was a little better. That other guy COULD win a medal. Enough non sequitur.

 

[mochief2000]

Sapps,
Communist! that's probably in your blood. U gave that stats on fake hate crimes. cool, now go and find the stats on real hate crimes. which one's more. There are always two sides to a book.
and you got your Facts wrong, who u asking for FBI advice, your dad. he's probably a communist himself,

and VhawkO1, it funny how u don't know what it means, yet u gave almost the same example.

 

[vhawk]

In addition to my post, how come no one ever complains about the question on the app that reads "Do you know anyone who goes here, cause if so your a$$ is definitely grandfathered right into this place?"