A note about Affirmative action

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mochief2000 said:
Sapps,
Communist! that's probably in your blood. U gave that stats on fake hate crimes. cool, now go and find the stats on real hate crimes. which one's more. There are always to sides to a book.
and you got your Facts wrong, who u asking for FBI advice, your dad. he's probably a communist himself,
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Can someone translate this into English?
 
Vhawk01 read my post again. Does it look like I am ANTI, I'm pro, h*. There a lot of people AA screws out? Give me a break. And I guess they are all white right. Please, if they could not beat out the 5% that we make up and not blame yourself, don't blame us. Ya make u 95%, he has a really good chance. Oh..i get it, we just don't belong in school, right! man, stop complaining they just wasn't good enough.
 
Sorry, I wasnt implying you were PRO-AA, I was just asking, cause your post was kind of unclear. And I specifically said that the vast majority, possible every single person, who does not get accepted to med school is NOT due to AA. I was simply saying that if it is even 1, and actually if it is even 0, it is still fundamentally unfair and flawed.
 
my appolgies to Vhawk01 if i sounded rude. u seem to think logically. I don't think being a minority is fair, but I can't do nothing about it. AA is flawed nothing is perfect, but it is doing more good than harm. watch and notice.
 
"Well the statistics show that 1/4 get in on their own merits and so chances are you are not that 1".

Apparently that's reality.

"Like you said this preconceived notion that we are inferior is present. "

Even if true, would it be so if their wasn't a different standard for different persons? AA perpetuates such things, not diminishes.

"Oh yeah one more thing. It is kinda funny how people pour out all this money for Kaplan, Princeton, EK etc and are taught how to grab the MCAT by the horns and beat it into the ground. You should do a hell of a job because you have been prepared. Yet those of us who can't afford to get this help are at a disadvantage and we speak of this the majority cry "oh well."

I believe it's a well known fact that the majority of the poor in the USA aren't "URM", so only suburban yuppie spawn believe this drivel that only URMs are poor. Of course, that adequately describes a large percent of white med students.

Even that thing for amacas or whatever showed that whites/asians living in essential poverty out score blacks from upper/middle classes. HOW do you explain that?
 
Oh. I know! Whites/asians are all given easier MCATs, that's it! Yeah. Whitey strikes again!
 
Sapps said:
"Well the statistics show that 1/4 get in on their own merits and so chances are you are not that 1".

Apparently that's reality.

"Like you said this preconceived notion that we are inferior is present. "

Even if true, would it be so if their wasn't a different standard for different persons? AA perpetuates such things, not diminishes.

"Oh yeah one more thing. It is kinda funny how people pour out all this money for Kaplan, Princeton, EK etc and are taught how to grab the MCAT by the horns and beat it into the ground. You should do a hell of a job because you have been prepared. Yet those of us who can't afford to get this help are at a disadvantage and we speak of this the majority cry "oh well."

I believe it's a well known fact that the majority of the poor in the USA aren't "URM", so only suburban yuppie spawn believe this drivel that only URMs are poor. Of course, that adequately describes a large percent of white med students.

Even that thing for amacas or whatever showed that whites/asians living in essential poverty out score blacks from upper/middle classes. HOW do you explain that?
Click to expand...

You seem hauntingly familiar. Did you once go by the name Thearchitect. He made these same arguments based on pseudo facts like the ones you are presenting...I wonder
 
mochief2000 said:
Vhawk01 read my post again. Does it look like I am ANTI, I'm pro, h*. There a lot of people AA screws out? Give me a break. And I guess they are all white right. Please, if they could not beat out the 5% that we make up and not blame yourself, don't blame us. Ya make u 95%, he has a really good chance. Oh..i get it, we just don't belong in school, right! man, stop complaining they just wasn't good enough.
Click to expand...

say...do I detect some bitterness toward whitey here?
 
Sapps said:
"Well the statistics show that 1/4 get in on their own merits and so chances are you are not that 1".

Apparently that's reality.

"Like you said this preconceived notion that we are inferior is present. "

Even if true, would it be so if their wasn't a different standard for different persons? AA perpetuates such things, not diminishes.

"Oh yeah one more thing. It is kinda funny how people pour out all this money for Kaplan, Princeton, EK etc and are taught how to grab the MCAT by the horns and beat it into the ground. You should do a hell of a job because you have been prepared. Yet those of us who can't afford to get this help are at a disadvantage and we speak of this the majority cry "oh well."

I believe it's a well known fact that the majority of the poor in the USA aren't "URM", so only suburban yuppie spawn believe this drivel that only URMs are poor. Of course, that adequately describes a large percent of white med students.

Even that thing for amacas or whatever showed that whites/asians living in essential poverty out score blacks from upper/middle classes. HOW do you explain that?
Click to expand...

I told ya, she/he thinks we are inferior. SAAP, lord have mercy, SAAP... listen to this. How many minorities are in private schools. How many schools in the "hood" are behind. its not entirely the economic background, but the quality of education. did u know by the time a kid is 8, 80% of there intellectual capacity is attained. So if we are going to poor quality schools at 4, we playing catch-up almost are entire lives.SAAPS, u are looking at it from the wrong view
another one for Blackiee...
 
mochief2000 said:
I told ya, she/he thinks we are inferior. SAAP, lord have mercy, SAAP... listen to this. How many minorities are in private schools. How many schools in the "hood" are behind. its not entirely the economic background, but the quality of education. did u know by the time a kid is 8, 80% of there intellectual capacity is attained. So if we are going to poor quality schools at 4, we playing catch-up almost are entire lives.SAAPS, u are looking at it from the wrong view
another one for Blackiee...
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HAHA. The hood? Can you read? How many upper class blacks live "in the hood?"
 
velocypedalist said:
and mysteriously joined SDN today....didn't TheArchitect just get banned, like yesterday or today?...hmmmm
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I am telling you. Something here just reeks of a comeback or am I just being a bit too critical. I don't know?it?s just that I am getting some major d?j? vu?.Plus the way he pounced all over this AA thread?makes me wonder
 
I would say the same number of minorities are in private schools as poor white/asian dudes...except thats not true, because private schools actively seek URMs and not poor people. Seriously, if we can all agree that being black is not NEARLY as big a disadvantage as being poor(although you can make the argument that being black and poor is toughest of all) I think we will find we have some common ground.
 
mochief2000 said:
Ain't no bitterness. just my view. i love all races. Man, i dated all races except asain. if u asain call-me 😉
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Asain? Are you for real?
 
Sapps, can we please not let this degenerate into criticizing spelling? Its not worth it, this is rapidly typed stuff, typos are bound to happen, and they dont matter. The purpose of communication is to convey ideas, you get what he's saying, dont sweat it. Notice I barely use apostrophes in my contractions? 🙂
 
vhawk01 said:
Sapps, can we please not let this degenerate into criticizing spelling? Its not worth it, this is rapidly typed stuff, typos are bound to happen, and they dont matter. The purpose of communication is to convey ideas, you get what he's saying, dont sweat it. Notice I barely use apostrophes in my contractions? 🙂
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Uhh, that wasn't a typo.
 
Sapps said:
HAHA. The hood? Can you read? How many upper class blacks live "in the hood?"
Click to expand...

How many middle and upper class blacks go to prodominatly white schools. They still go to the "hood",birds of the same feather flock together. Have u ever noticed why in some schools are still segerated even though,everybody lives in the same district. Don't tell me your that naive. I guess u barely started reading.
 
vhawk01 said:
I would say the same number of minorities are in private schools as poor white/asian dudes...except thats not true, because private schools actively seek URMs and not poor people. Seriously, if we can all agree that being black is not NEARLY as big a disadvantage as being poor(although you can make the argument that being black and poor is toughest of all) I think we will find we have some common ground.
Click to expand...

yes, or at least agree that being poor in general is a MAJOR disadvantage that is currently not factored into the med school admissions process?
 
vhawk01 said:
Sapps, can we please not let this degenerate into criticizing spelling? Its not worth it, this is rapidly typed stuff, typos are bound to happen, and they dont matter. The purpose of communication is to convey ideas, you get what he's saying, dont sweat it. Notice I barely use apostrophes in my contractions? 🙂
Click to expand...


I just want to commend you on your very civil behavior during this AA discussion. Time and again, I have seen individuals turn these threads into a breeding ground for expressing some really ignorant stuff. Although we are on different sides of the fence I really appreciate your civility.
 
Yes, and can those of you who are adamant about how unfair AA is, of which I am one, please realize that nepotism is just as unfair, and I would argue is much more epidemic...
 
vhawk01 said:
Yes, and can those of you who are adamant about how unfair AA is, of which I am one, please realize that nepotism is just as unfair, and I would argue is much more epidemic...
Click to expand...


It's all cyclic perpetuation of classism. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
vhawk01 said:
I would say the same number of minorities are in private schools as poor white/asian dudes...except thats not true, because private schools actively seek URMs and not poor people. Seriously, if we can all agree that being black is not NEARLY as big a disadvantage as being poor(although you can make the argument that being black and poor is toughest of all) I think we will find we have some common ground.
Click to expand...



Why would they seek them? simple, b/c there are not many of them. Poor is a disadavantage, true. Black is a disadvantage, hell yeah. black and poor, man u out of luck.
 
Well, this coming from someone who called OTHERS communist? Isnt that like the whole communist historical perspective? But I am kidding, I dont disagree, but that doesnt make it ok. If AA is wrong, so is nepotism, and for exactly the same reasons.
 
mochief2000 said:
Why would they seek them? simple, b/c there are not many of them. Poor is a disadavantage, true. Black is a disadvantage, hell yeah. black and poor, man u out of luck.
Click to expand...


aren't poor people under-represented in med school as well?
 
vhawk01 said:
Well, this coming from someone who called OTHERS communist? Isnt that like the whole communist historical perspective? But I am kidding, I dont disagree, but that doesnt make it ok. If AA is wrong, so is nepotism, and for exactly the same reasons.
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I called Sapps comunist b/c she called me. Sorry lost my temper.
I have to agree on something---poor is a disadvantage, there agreed at last. I feel from reading my threads ignorant as SAAPs. Sorry if i offended anyone. ur view are interesting.
 
Unfortunately, I dont know that studies have really been done on that, and I dont think thats an AMCAS or MCAT survey question, but doesnt common sense kind of tell you that yes, poor people are incredibly scarce? I mean, I consider myself WAY on the poor side of the application spectrum, but its not like I grew up below the line, I am probably lower middle class. But this isnt about me complaining how tough it is, its gotta be incredibly hard for people who are a lot worse off than me....app fees, study materials, TIME to study, none of which are remediated by being white.
 
I disagree that being black and poor is de facto worse than white and poor, for instance.

If you are white and poor, the media is ruthless in your condemnation. You can literally make fun of poor whites any way you want in the media and no one will bat an eyelash. Blacks? Nope. Hands off. No negative stereotypes allowed! Hello, hypocritical leftist media!

Additionally, there are millions and millions of dollars being poured into countless outreach programs for inner city URM. How many are targeting, for instance, rural south Dakota kids? Out of sight, out of mind. The media's eye is selectively focused, thus much of the reality in the US ends up "out of mind."
 
Okay, mochief, so here is where we differ. I agree that there is a disadvantage being a URM, and an even bigger disadvantage in being poor. Thats fine. Where we disagree is on the "solution." Although it is admittedly pie-in-the-sky, school reform and a change in economic climate are MUCH better alternatives than AA. I just feel that correcting racism and inequality with racism and inequality is incredibly hypocritical, even if it works! Assuming AA was able to absolutely level the playing field in 10 years, make it fair and balanced and eliminate discrimination, I would still be absolutely against it. This might be because I'm white, although I would like to think not. Rather I would say it has to do with my sense of fairplay, but my mom also told me I was the handsomest kid in school, so consider the source. 🙂
 
I definately agree that being poor hurts you more in the cycle that being black/hispanic/etc....

My poor a$$ just had to get an increase in my student loans to pay for the whole admissions cycle, otherwise I would not be able to participate. I consider that a signifigant disadvangtage over the middle class black student who has the resources to pay for the admissions cycle.

But that is just one case
 
Chalklette, the problem with your post is that that is exactly the same thing bigotted white men can easily say as they discriminate against black people, and you would NEVER stand for it! Sure, Mike here is slower, less competent, doesnt show up, but are those the only things that make him qualified? What about the intangibles.... its a slippery slope is all I'm saying, and when you have in WRITING an agenda to target URMs for acceptance, it sure makes it less believable...
 
Also, I am not sure how fair it is to essentially call us gutless...I mean, you dont know me or have any reason to respect me, I guess, other than perhaps a little bit of respect due any human being? I might be wrong.
 
Chalklette,

You see, I was making an analogy from raw scores, something that is tangible and quantitative, to performance or something else related in a job field. Like saying, yeah, they had bad numbers and no EC's, but there was something about them that got them in...and of course that can be said of all acceptees with lower numbers, but I dont think its arguable that the number of people accepted with lower numbers are disproportionately URMs.
 
chalklette said:
Answer these questions.


This is a dead issue. As long as no one thinks they have the kahoonas to question my capabilities to my face, we will have no problem. People have the guts of the largest fish in the sea on here. Anonymity is a great thing. As soon as someone does get the kahoonas it will be on and popping :laugh:

YALL COME BACK NOW.....YA HEAR?
Click to expand...


These statements, unless I am reading too much into it, kind of imply that what we say has no validity because we dont have "kahoonas" and because on here we've got guts. When you say "Well, on here people have the guts of the largest fish in the sea," there is a definite implication that we would otherwise have....I dont know, smaller guts? Smaller fish? Either way... 🙂
 
But if you say that the point of your post wasnt to call us gutless, then I cant argue with that. It is your words, after all. I must be mistaken.
 
And now I have just wasted an hour of work time, and its quitting time. Say hi to all yer friends for me, drive safely, and be nice to three people on your way home. Peace out.
 
MCAT, GPA, LORs, Research, Volunteer, Contract to practice in under-served areas, Family Income, etc.

You can use everything except RACE. Is that too much to ask?
 
Agreed. Nepotism sucks. I hope President Gate's stand against Legacy points and preferences by race will spread to other universities.
 
chalklette said:
Oh yeah one more thing. It is kinda funny how people pour out all this money for Kaplan, Princeton, EK etc and are taught how to grab the MCAT by the horns and beat it into the ground. You should do a hell of a job because you have been prepared. Yet those of us who can't afford to get this help are at a disadvantage and we speak of this the majority cry "oh well."
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's wild. I went to school poor, paid my way through with financial aid, graduated, served in the military for the past 7 years, and now I can afford a Princeton Review class. Boy, aren't I one of the oppressor class now. Yet I don't get any special treatment. What's up?
 
chalklette said:
Answer these questions.

1.What qualifies someone to be judged as one not getting in on their own merit?
MCAT scores and GPA. If this is your answer then answer this.

2. What is the magic number for an acceptance to med school that will correlate with being a good doctor?


3. Does the fact that you pass the boards play no role? Or is this the time that numbers mean nothing when they mean so much for entrance to med school?


4. What is the purpose of LOR's, EC's, etc?
Could it be that people need to be able to interact with patients and fellow members of the surgical team. Nah? Who needs this? This is not important at all.

5. Most importantly,tell me where does it say beside an accepted applicant that they got in because they are an URM?

This is a dead issue. As long as no one thinks they have the kahoonas to question my capabilities to my face, we will have no problem. I will continue to read these types of threads with an open mind and very little animosity in my heart for you can't truly confront one whom you don't know. People have the guts of the largest fish in the sea on here. Anonymity is a great thing. As soon as someone does get the kahoonas it will be on and popping :laugh:

YALL COME BACK NOW.....YA HEAR?
Click to expand...

2. MCAT and GPA tend to correlate with success in med school. Success in med school is neccessary to become any kind of doctor, let alone a good one.

Med school spots are rarer than applicants. They have to fill those spots. So they fill them with the people they think will have the best chance of graduating. And it works. Greater than 90% of all med students graduate. So just saying graduation is enough to make you a good doctor means that 90% of med school matriculants will be good. At that point, what's the point of saying good doctor, because you really just mean graduate.

3. Passing the boards is really important. However, look at the percentage that pass the boards. Compare it to the number who are accepted into med school. Where is the cutoff? Getting into med school is the filter. Most who pass that hurdle will pass the boards.

4. LORs, ECs, etc. are additional pieces of the application puzzle. Guess what? A lot of folks have great LORs and ECs. So if two people have great qualifications besides grades, are you suggesting the adcom just flip a coin? Or should GPA and MCAT maybe be used? Come on.

5. It doesn't. There are probably a bunch of really qualified URMs that got in with no help from AA. They will get in if AA is discontinued or not. It's those that get in because of race that are getting an unearned advantage.

Kahoona, is that a Hawaiian chief? Like the big Kahuna? Or is it slang for cojones? Either way, I've got no reason to come up to you, even if I knew you, and hassle you over your med school stats. I'm plenty brave enough, just not discourteous enough. I don't hate individuals that got in due to AA. I just don't agree with the policy because I don't think it's just.
 
Looks like Thearchitect is back 🙄 Sapps, how was the ban ? 🙂
 
The fact is, if we had equal opportunity today, we wouldn't need to talk about affirmative action.
Dr. Alan Page, Minnesota Supreme Court Justice and former NFL defensive lineman

👍
 
pathdr2b said:
The fact is, if we had equal opportunity today, we wouldn't need to talk about affirmative action.
Dr. Alan Page, Minnesota Supreme Court Justice and former NFL defensive lineman

👍
Click to expand...

Wow, that's such an incredible "argument" you have there. You ever heard of circular logic? Logic at all?
 
SoCalRULES!!!!! said:
How do I disgrace the profession? I graduated in the top 2% of my class, was junior AOA (the ulitmate character and academic award one can get as a med student), was elected multiple years as a class officer, worked as hard as I could in the rotations, took the hardest 4th year I could while others took vacation.

I'm just so sick of these little suburban punks whining about something they know nothing about. In fact whining about something that doesn't even really exist. The idea that there are hordes of URMs getting into medical school because they don't deserve it isn't reality. Moreover, people are so much more than just numbers. As a resident I'd much rather train a cool hardworking URM on the wards and in the OR, then some geeky uptight white or asian pre-med who is continually whining about affirmative action. Stay out of medicine you have no business here at all.

I stand by what I said, if you can't get into medical school it has nothing to do with affirmative action, it is because you suck. Anyone with any kind of decent academic record is going to be accepted somewhere as long as they have some kind of personality and can interview.
Click to expand...

Suburban punks? You don't know me, don't pretend you do.

If there aren't hordes of URMs getting into med school through AA, then what is the point of it? Why not just get rid of it, since it's not really letting anyone get into med school who wouldn't have anyway. After all, all they need to get into med school is "any kind of decent academic record", "have some kind of personality and can interview".

Read the AAMC legal brief. They give numbers as to how many people they feel got in due to AA. They give the numbers in support of AA, but they still give numbers. For everyone who gets in, someone else does not. That's the bottomline.
 
SoCalRULES!!!!! said:
How do I disgrace the profession? I graduated in the top 2% of my class, was junior AOA (the ulitmate character and academic award one can get as a med student), was elected multiple years as a class officer, worked as hard as I could in the rotations, took the hardest 4th year I could while others took vacation.

I'm just so sick of these little suburban punks whining about something they know nothing about. In fact whining about something that doesn't even really exist. The idea that there are hordes of URMs getting into medical school because they don't deserve it isn't reality. Moreover, people are so much more than just numbers. As a resident I'd much rather train a cool hardworking URM on the wards and in the OR, then some geeky uptight white or asian pre-med who is continually whining about affirmative action. Stay out of medicine you have no business here at all.

I stand by what I said, if you can't get into medical school it has nothing to do with affirmative action, it is because you suck. Anyone with any kind of decent academic record is going to be accepted somewhere as long as they have some kind of personality and can interview.
Click to expand...


Wow SoCal, you've got me so torn. Let me first come clean with the fact that I completly agree with you; there are not hordes of undeserving URMs getting into med school, and if a non-URM didn't get into med school its not because of AA, its because they were not a competitive candidate or borderline at best....or as you put it a bit more abrasivly "[they] suck"

I think all this is true.

However, I also have a theory on why you're getting so much grief from the other posters: you're a prick. I really don't mean this in a bad way. Many (if not most) successful people are pricks, I'm willing to bet that you know that you're a prick and are not bothered by it, and honestly I can sometimes be a bit of a prick myself. I guess all i'm saying is that posting a responce that says "i'm a great med student--look at my grades/stats/future residency" lets us all know that in addition to being very intelligent, hard working, and talented...you're a prick, and most SDNers response is going to be to "flame."

Also I think you covered up some valid points by being too caustic. People don't respond to being told that "they suck" EVEN THOUGH you have a valid point that AA does not keep qualified applicants out of med school. This argument is going to be ignored by anyone reading this thread because of your opening "pricky" comments.

Anyway, congratulations on your success so far, good luck with your residency, and next time you post try to be a little less aggressive and I think more people will listen to you.
 
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