A note about Affirmative action

[MoosePilot]

Also I think you covered up some valid points by being too caustic. People don't respond to being told that "they suck" EVEN THOUGH you have a valid point that AA does not keep qualified applicants out of med school. This argument is going to be ignored by anyone reading this thread because of your opening "pricky" comments.

This is the one point that bothers me. "...AA does not keep qualified applicants out of med school."

Ok, given that roughly 50% of people don't get in and the qualifications of the last guy getting in and the first guy not getting into any particular school are similar, how can you say AA does not keep qualified applicants out of med school? If there are 100 positions in an entering class and in one world there is no AA, then supposedly the top 100 people would get in. In another world, with AA, 5 URM students are accepted due to their minority status and the last 5 non-URM students who would have been accepted now are not. Those 5 applicants probably aren't much different than the 5 above them. They're just not going to medical school.

It's circular logic to say that getting into medical school shows you're qualified to get into medical school which shows you're qualified to get into... you get it? The top guys on the didn't get in list are still qualified, they just got beat out by a supply/demand issue.

Now I've posted more in this thread than I ever intended. I'm not even totally against affirmative action. I firmly believe that the best way to overcome racism is to try to be colorblind and this clearly isn't that. It may be neccessary, but I really hope AAMC is working to correct the underlying problems that are keeping URMs from being ultra-competitive on numbers alone. I'm more for academic resources to get test scores up, to improve study skills, to improve GPAs than I am for just artificially lowering a bar.

I'm all for helping people who've overcome obstacles out. They deserve the help by virtue of the obstacles they've overcome. I just favor looking at the history of overcoming obstacles and not some other trait which might correlate strongly with that.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[superso]

i havent read these posts but i figured id put in my 2 cents. i think aa in temrs of financial status is one thing. im not sure about it based solely on you know what. i know a lot of rich people who applied aa but had way more money than im sure some adirondack white kids had. on the other hand, lots of people who apply aa are in fact disadvantaged and financially down just b/c of hte system in the past and i think its ok some get a bit of a break on that. but my idea? aa based primarily on financial status but a case by case look at it all.

 

[rackd8ball]

I've seen stats showing that average scores of whites/asians from <$30,000 homes are still higher than scores of URMs from middle class families ($80,000). I'm not here to argue about that point, I don't know why that is. But by basing AA on socioeconomic status, you do nothing to solve the fundamental problem: there are not enough URMs in medicine.

Because of our predominantly meritocritous society, those who can have advantages (whatever they may be) in education will end up getting the more lucrative and stable professions. These include medicine, law, business, blahblah, anything you need college and professional degrees for. Now, for all those arguing AGAINST AA, what kind of society would we be if these higher-paying professions only constituted whites?

ALL LEVELS OF SOCIETY should reflect the overall racial and ethnic makeup of America to the best of our ability. That's the overall goal of equal opportunity and rights, right? Isn't that what America stands for?

So how do we get there? Yes, I agree with all the anti-AA people: schools have to be improved for all neighborhoods, and attitudes have to be changed. Those things are happening, and efforts are being made in all cities to redistribute educational resources and raise all schools to some decent level. Slowly, resources and attitudes will change to equate things. But these things take time... we're only 40 years out of a 400 year legacy of legalized institutional racism. Slavery was dead after the Civil War, but segregation was alive and well, in both the North and South, up until the 1960s.

Making educational quality equal for all (which is what anti-AAs what, right?) will take time. But our country IS working on it. Still, its effects will take generations to filter up into higher education. In the meantime, we need AA to rectify things at the top. We need to fix what our country did on ALL levels of society. And if that means taking in race for the sake of diversifying the less diverse aspects of our society, so be it.

But you know what? AA only accounts for what, 5-10% of any given class? Why would you complain about what 5-10% of the class is getting? I would be much more angry at the 20-25% of any given undergraduate institution that is getting in because of alumni status. At my undergrad, where the overall acceptance was 10%, being an alumni could up your acceptance rates to as high as 30%. An estimated 20% of the campus had older siblings or parents who came to the school. Legacy goes a long way in admissions, because it creates the vertical and horizontal continuity in families, making such families more likely to devote time and energy to the school.

Also, being a recruited athlete could up your acceptance rates to similar percentages, and I know that, on average, this group had lower SATs and GPAs than their non-athlete classmates. Taken together, legacy and athlete groups can take ~ 30% of a class.

Why aren't all the anti-AA kids complaining about legacy/athlete kids?? If anti-AA kids are mad about the inherent "racism" of AA, then they should be equally, if not more, upset about the legacy/athletic advantages that far more kids are getting.

Now, I know the argument for having athletes at a school, because they add a special dynamic to the school, bring pride to the sports programs, and rake in money for the school... But is it really fair for a studious, qualified kid to get bumped out so that one more kid can make a team? If it is, then it is just as fair to get bumped for the sake of diversity, because diversity on a campus adds just as much to the overall education and personal interactions that each student can benefit from.

I'm sure kids aren't getting bumped out of med school because the med school needs to recruit for any team. But the same argument applies: AA is just as fair as any other advantage you can have, because it is necessary in order to add an element of diversity to each class. Diversity is crucial to a better education. If you eliminate AA, you eliminate such diversity, which, at this point, would just keep us from making medicine representative of the general population. Diversity in the med school class also adds to diversity in the workplace.

SO what if we did get rid of AA? Look at the UC system, they did. Now the classes are predominantly whites and asians, with asians taking upwards of 30% of each school. Does that make things better? Less diversity on campus only fuels racism on these campuses. Hate crimes with whites against asians are increasing more and more, because Asians grossly overstepping their normal population percentages. People stick to their own. Nothing is better on these campuses. We don't move any closer towards the diversity and mutual understanding and education that can come from it.

If you're gonna whine about AA, then pick a bigger fish to fry.. whine about all the kids who get in because their daddies and mommies paved the way for them. Far more kids are "taking your spots" for those reasons than for AA-related ones. And yes, I agree with SoCal... There's a reason only half of med school applicants make it in: medicine is a tough profession, and it takes high standards for someone to make it in. If you can't make it into med school because some "big mean URM" is bumping you out, well, boo hoo hoo, you're at best marginally qualified, if qualified at all. SO suck it up, study harder, and try again next year. Stop f**king whining and study harder.

And no matter how much we argue this, AA is here to stay. The way I see it, our country was, and still is, racist against minorities. It's about time minorities got some slack anyways.

 

[vhawk]

I guess this is in response to a few earlier posts. If it is true that AA does not allow any URMs to get in that wouldnt otherwise, or allow URMs to get in with slightly lower stats, causing someone with better stats to lose out, then what is the purpose of AA? I mean, you cant really believe that, cause it implies that AA is a total lip-service. I mean, it might be but then why dont we get rid of it, and end controversy? Oh, because the real purpose of AA is to allow politicians and university heads to claim they are making progress, when they really dont have to do anything.

Also, I dont understand how you can say that the real "problem" is not enough URMs in med school. I would agree that A problem is not enough qualified URM candidates, but I would say the only issue with med schools is getting the best and most capable people in, not evening out the numbers with society. This is not to say there shouldnt be more URMs, but simply to imply that the focus should be on improving URM candidates, or giving them better opportunities, but not forcing them into med school despite reality.

 

[vhawk]

But, rackd8ball, I totally agree with you that nepotism is probably a much more significant evil in the application process, and no one seems to care about it.

 

[W222]

To base AA on the "representation of society agrument" then we must have med school classes that are roughly 40% Hispanic-Latino-South American origin. Blacks would probably make up 25%, whites 25% and the remainder would go to Asians-others. Those of Latino decent are the largest "minority" in the US, soon to be the majority. Should classes represent this, if so the argument for African americans fails. You know which race got screwed worse than any other in the past 200 years, Native Americans.

 

[rackd8ball]

I guess this is in response to a few earlier posts. If it is true that AA does not allow any URMs to get in that wouldnt otherwise, or allow URMs to get in with slightly lower stats, causing someone with better stats to lose out, then what is the purpose of AA? I mean, you cant really believe that, cause it implies that AA is a total lip-service. I mean, it might be but then why dont we get rid of it, and end controversy? Oh, because the real purpose of AA is to allow politicians and university heads to claim they are making progress, when they really dont have to do anything.

If we get rid of AA, the truth is that URMs might not be getting in as much as they are now. That would be the big problem, because I really think we need to make medicine more representative of the population. But for now, what's the big deal? In the end, even IF 3/4 of URMS get in because of AA, almost 90% of them graduate anyways. 87% to be exact. They pass boards, they learn the same stuff, they're just as qualified as anyone else in the class. That is just going by what I heard earlier. Granted, there's that 13% that don't graduate, but 13% of 5-10%... is 1% of all medical schools? Not a big deal in the end. And I'm sure there are other non-URMs who don't graduate...

So what if someone with slightly better stats is getting bumped out? I think it's hard to say that MCAT/GPA correlates 100% with success in medical school. Perhaps its close, but it's not Ohm's law or anything. So I would argue that the white/asian kids who are getting "bumped out" due to AA have marginally low MCATs and GPAs... they're just as likely not to graduate as any of these supposed "high-risk URMs with low scores."

Look at all the kids who post on SDN with low scores. "Help me guys, look at me, I have low scores but I can be a really good doctor..." No one gives them crap, they give them support. Because we all know that scores don't tell the full story of a person. I would be wary of using scores as the only prediction of medical school success...

Also, I dont understand how you can say that the real "problem" is not enough URMs in med school. I would agree that A problem is not enough qualified URM candidates, but I would say the only issue with med schools is getting the best and most capable people in, not evening out the numbers with society. This is not to say there shouldnt be more URMs, but simply to imply that the focus should be on improving URM candidates, or giving them better opportunities, but not forcing them into med school despite reality.

I think med schools realize that making a med student class is a lot like making a team. You can't have everyone fit the cookie cutter mold.. some will be brainiacs, some will be humanitarians, some will be researchers. It's this kind of diversity that really adds to the medical school learning environment. We learn from each other more than we ever will from a teacher. The same thing goes for diversity, in all its forms. We learn from people who come from different backgrounds, who see society in different ways. And we learn to deal with all facets of society, and we become better doctors for it. To lose diversity would be a shame for anyone going to medical school.

I totally agree with you vhawk, in that the real solution is to level the playing field of elementary and junior level edcuational systems across teh country, so that every child has an equal opportunity to succeed, no matter what color he or she is. I think we probably agree more than disagree. I hope that one day we can reach that, so we can eliminate AA. That's the ideal, though, and it's a long way from here.

In the meantime, we need things like AA to just start tipping things back to level. It's not the best solution, but it works to some degree. It adds diversity, and it makes our country's physicians more representative of the country. URMs are also more likely to serve underserved communities, and this is proven in a study, not some bs that I'm spitting out. We gain all these things, at the expense of lowering our physician throughput by 1%.. I personally think that's totally worth it in the end, but that's just my opinion.

 

[tofurious]

ALL LEVELS OF SOCIETY should reflect the overall racial and ethnic makeup of America to the best of our ability. That's the overall goal of equal opportunity and rights, right? Isn't that what America stands for?

So NBA should be made up with more whites and a lot more Asians, no? If that should be the case, why did Larry Bird get the racist-tag by saying there should be more white players in the NBA???

Along that argument, the NFL should have more than just the two Asian players. AA has unsuccessfully tried to change the educational system for 40 years - it's about time we give AA a chance to succeed in profesional sports.

 

[kae51202]

rackd8ball, I would like to say that I agree with your arguments as you presented issues inherent to any discussion about AA; it is important for all of us to truly understand the history of our country when attempting to provide AA solutions. Many of the medical institutions were founded in the 1800s and earlier by white males leaving URM and women to catch up years later when respective laws on AA were finally installed. Thank God for schools like Howard, Morehouse and Meharry. Without them, the number of URM in medicine and medical school would be drastically lower today and our medical facilities would NOT reflect the true composition of society. Many people (I for one) find solace in doctors who have a similar background or culture. This is not to say that I want to be treated exclusively by doctors of my race but these encounters are pleasant when they do occur.

On another note, I've been following this thread for the past couple of days and I find it ironic that so many people are suddenly interested in the plight of URM because they have not been getting into medical school. Inferior education, poor quality textbooks...these issues have been around for quite some time. I guess better late than never?

Also, what about spots that are given to students from other countries who train in the US and then immediately go back to their countries after obtaining a US medical license? I wonder if people will begin to request these spots "back" as well.
Just some food for thought.

 

[veenut]

"I think it's hard to say that MCAT/GPA correlates 100% with success in medical school. Perhaps its close, but it's not Ohm's law or anything."


Booooooo

 

[ms2209]

There's a reason only half of med school applicants make it in: medicine is a tough profession, and it takes high standards for someone to make it in. If you can't make it into med school because some "big mean URM" is bumping you out, well, boo hoo hoo, you're at best marginally qualified, if qualified at all. SO suck it up, study harder, and try again next year. Stop f**king whining and study harder.

rackd8ball, first off, I wanted to say that your post was articulate and excellent. Second, I agree with you that medicine is a tough profession and requires high standards, but this is precisely why I feel that medical schools must be sure that they are choosing the best possible candidates for such spots, regardless of race, amount of money in your mommy/daddy's bank account, athletic ability, etc. HOWEVER, I understand why affirmative action is in place, and I do find legacy admissions to be a WORSE problem, by far, than AA. After all, why should people who've already been given everything receive another break (*cough* Bush *cough*). While I agree that diversity should be a goal, my question is, at what expense? I do feel that there should be a reasonable assurance that accepted students can "tough it" in med school, because physicians (IMO) have amongst the greatest responsibilties of all professions, and med schools have to make sure they're accepting individuals who are capable of handling such responsiblity. Just my .02

 

[tofurious]

Many of the medical institutions were founded in the 1800s and earlier by white males leaving URM and women to catch up years later when respective laws on AA were finally installed. Thank God for schools like Howard, Morehouse and Meharry.

Yes, and the Asians were put on a pedestal along with the descendents of the Founding Fathers. Funny how I never saw an Asian face on Mount Rushmore.

Any argument you can come up that demonstrates "disadvantage" and/or "discrimination" is not exclusive to the 5 ethnic groups that are targeted by AA. The Irish, the Polish, the Jews, and the Asians have all overcome their historical disadvantages and made their mark in this society without AA. The only group that was extremely discriminated against was the Native Americans who were systemically slaughtered. You STILL don't see too many Native American doctors because the other groups in AA are still abusing the Native Americans by both their sheer number and their much improved socioeconomic status. Of course, then the argument comes that there aren't that many native American patients overall, and thus there is no need for that many Native American doctors. IF # is the main argument, then this is not an issue of historical disadvantage, is it? It's a mere issue of quota, and how your groups are not meeting them on your own merits.

 

[rackd8ball]

To base AA on the "representation of society agrument" then we must have med school classes that are roughly 40% Hispanic-Latino-South American origin. Blacks would probably make up 25%, whites 25% and the remainder would go to Asians-others. Those of Latino decent are the largest "minority" in the US, soon to be the majority. Should classes represent this, if so the argument for African americans fails. You know which race got screwed worse than any other in the past 200 years, Native Americans.

First off, I think your numbers are off... blacks and latinos each constitute 12-13%. Latino/hispanic etc just passed blacks in this country. Asians, 3-4% at most. Whites still make up >70% of the country.

Yea, but we all know that we can't totally tip the scales so that every level of society mirrors our total population makeup. The chips just don't fall that way in this country. AA is just one way to nudge the percentages in the right direction, because that's the direction we need to go head towards. To start letting in completely unqualified applicants just for the sake of perfect percentages would be crazy.

Which brings me to another thought. For the most part, AA doesn't let in unqualified applicants... people here have already noted that the vaaaaast majority of medical students, URM or not, make it through medical school. I'm talking 99%. And as I argued earlier, I think the benefits of AA outweigh the 13% of 5-10% URM population that supposedly don't make it (using numbers I saw earlier).

You bring up a great point with the numbers... I think it just shows everyone that something is really off with our country. Something's gotta be so wrong with our education and society that the two minorities that make up almost 25% of our population (I think the numbers are 12% and 12% for blacks/latinos) only make up ~10% of our medical schools, colleges, etc. When we get to the top of corporations, institutions, we find, what, 1 black man? a couple women? And a whole bunch of old white men?

I agree with the anti-AA people, in that we really have to do more elsewhere, in edcuation, etc. But AA is just one, albeit inperfect, way to rectify our inequities.

 

[ms2209]

Any argument you can come up that demonstrates "disadvantage" and/or "discrimination" is not exclusive to the 5 ethnic groups that are targeted by AA. The Irish, the Polish, the Jews, and the Asians have all overcome their historical disadvantages and made their mark in this society without AA.

This is a good point. There are lots of ethnic groups that have been the targets of racism and prejudice. I know my parents have had to deal with it (though we do not qualify as URM), so I think in some ways it's wrong to assume that certain groups of people have to "suck it up" while others do not.

 

[Gbemi24]

The only group that was extremely discriminated against was the Native Americans who were systemically slaughtered.

I guess in your world slavery, lynching and Jim Crow laws are not extreme discrimination. What a tool.

 

[veenut]

The ancestors of the blacks in America today were brought over here against their will. When slavery ended, they were left uneducated and poor and denied access to a decent education. Given their history, I wonder what you consider to be "extreme discrimination".

The plight of the Native Americans, however, is just as bad, if not worse.

 

[tofurious]

Yea, but we all know that we can't totally tip the scales so that every level of society mirrors our total population makeup. The chips just don't fall that way in this country.

So for Asians who want to get into the NBA, this is your answer. Why can't we say that to every black or latino medical school applicant? "The chips just don't fall that way in this country"???

Like another poster mentioned, you are all for it when you are benefited, but hey, when others are at a disadvantage in another situation, fairness is golden and no preferential treatment should be allowed!

 

[tofurious]

The ancestors of the blacks in America today were brought over here against their will. When slavery ended, they were left uneducated and poor and denied access to a decent education. Given their history, I wonder what you consider to be "extreme discrimination".

After the Civil War, Asians were brought over to replace the labor lost through emancipation. They were economic slaves and weren't allowed to go to white schools. What do you call that? Equal opportunity?

Between each lick of your own people's wounds, look around and see what other people have done.

 

[amnesia]

Why don't we just drop the race card on evertyhing?

I don't see why AA is even around. Wouldn't europeans be proud that they made the world into a power grid, leaving no place left behind.

We also developed the best nations in the world:

Australia
New Zealand
United States
Canada
United Kingdom

and those name a few, including all the countries in europe save for albania and turkey.


ALL are countries under the union jack and where the UN sends refugees first? C'mon, why does it matter?

If you want to go further, any black i know is super happy to even be here because AFRICA IS A MESS. I have a ton of black friends that I talk politics too. They are all against AA, because they think it has lived its life. OK, so our country isn't perfect, but AA was started years ago.

Also, if we have to help minorities out, then are THEY truly as smart as us? It would be like comparing a mentally disabled person to a person who isn't.



C'mon, AA is rediculous.

and, what is a URM?

 

[amnesia]

I'd like to further add that everywhere in school, the white male is portrayed as everyone's worst enemy. This will backfire some day when all us are grown up and we want to take back what we lost. History repeats itself.

 

[veenut]

A) I'm not black
B) I'm not denying that other races have been discriminated against, but the majority of Asians in America today are second and third-generation, NOT the descendants of the railroad workers.

 

[veenut]

What did you lose?

 

[kae51202]

Any argument you can come up that demonstrates "disadvantage" and/or "discrimination" is not exclusive to the 5 ethnic groups that are targeted by AA. The Irish, the Polish, the Jews, and the Asians have all overcome their historical disadvantages and made their mark in this society without AA.

I say congratulations to these groups for their victories. Unfortunately, no one asks to be an URM and until URM groups overcome their "historical disadvantages" AA is needed and is doing more positive than not. The URM students graduate, heal lives and in the case of Dr. Ben Carson are successfully performing surgerys that no one has ever attempted. This is a positive thing for EVERYONE. Your quotas do not define excellency post medical school. You never know what contribution another will make and you'll never find out if you refuse to look past the imperfect quotas.

 

[pathdr2b]

We also developed the best nations in the world:

Australia
New Zealand
United States
Canada
United Kingdom

I'm sure Native Americans and Abrigones (sp?) would disagree.

Yep, destroying other nation's and the people of those nation's is truly something to be proud of and no other race on the planet can claim that as well as the Europeans!

 

[Gbemi24]

This is a good point. There are lots of ethnic groups that have been the targets of racism and prejudice.

I am strongly anti-AA, but I get ticked to no end when these preposterous comparisons are made. Riddle me this.

Were the polish, Jews and Irish lynched for looking at black women?

Did they have to sit at the back of the bus?

Did they have to live under Jim Crow laws for over a hundred years?

Were they forcibly segregated from majority society?

Didn?t JFK, an Irish-American, become president in 1960? Do you think a black person would have had ANY chance of being president in 1960?

How many Irish, Polish and Jews were murdered in the South for simply demanding the rights guaranteed them in the US Constitution?

 

[amnesia]

A) I'm not black
B) I'm not denying that other races have been discriminated against, but the majority of Asians in America today are second and third-generation, NOT the descendants of the railroad workers.

I agree with B, yet every Asian in my school says "Stupid Americans" like they aren't even american.


Everyone has to agree with thus, but we are being balkanized, which will lead to the partition of our country in the future probably. These are things to fight for people! The USA is the best country in the world.

 

[amnesia]

How many Irish, Polish and Jews were murdered in the south for simply demanding the rights guaranteed them in the US Constitution?

I think you have the wrong country.

 

[amnesia]

What do you mean what do I lose?

I lose the superiority of the past. Everyone of my teachers tells how bad we were.

But I don't care. Every invention was practically made in European.

 

[Blake]

I am strongly anti-AA, but I get ticked to no end when these preposterous comparisons are made. Riddle me this.

Were the polish, Jews and Irish lynched for looking at black women?

Did they have to sit at the back of the bus?

Did they have to live under Jim Crow laws for over a hundred years?

Were they forcibly segregated from majority society?

Didn?t JFK, an Irish-American, become president in 1960? Do you think a black person could have had ANY chance of being president in 1960?

How many Irish, Polish and Jews were murdered in the south for simply demanding the rights guaranteed them in the US Constitution?

This guy has a valid point, and this thread will probably get uglier soon. Are you the one who posted in that IQ vs MCAT thread made a long time ago ? I'm trying to learn from your '' flowery '' diction

 

[rackd8ball]

So NBA should be made up with more whites and a lot more Asians, no? If that should be the case, why did Larry Bird get the racist-tag by saying there should be more white players in the NBA???

Along that argument, the NFL should have more than just the two Asian players. AA has unsuccessfully tried to change the educational system for 40 years - it's about time we give AA a chance to succeed in profesional sports.

I don't think we can bring in professional sports and, along the same lines, movie stars. They have exceptional talent, or just dumb good looks/acting abilities. They are paid huge gobs of money according to their super-extraordinary talent and money making potential in sports and movie-making businesses. Furthermore, these people consitute a minute slice of the American pie. Minute meaning you can probably cap the number of pro-ball players and movie-stars at, what, 50,000 people in our entire country? That's a big estimate too...

Medicine, when taken together with all the other better paying jobs (professors, lawyers, business persons, small-business owners, CEOs, dentists, engineers, government leaders, etc) comprise the group of professions that almost all Americans with a decent IQ can attain through hard work. That's the American dream, right? But when invisible forces in our society and institutions keep certain groups from attaining these, whether they be unequal educational opportunities, racism, etc, that's just not fair.

That's not what America is about. There's a reason we're the best country on earth, and I think it's because we promise all AMericans freedom, life, liberty, and the pursuit of HAPPINESS. And that pursuit of happiness includes reaching any part of society you want to. If there are things in our society that, on average, keep certain groups from those goals, then it is America's responsibility to fix that.

Any argument you can come up that demonstrates "disadvantage" and/or "discrimination" is not exclusive to the 5 ethnic groups that are targeted by AA. The Irish, the Polish, the Jews, and the Asians have all overcome their historical disadvantages and made their mark in this society without AA. The only group that was extremely discriminated against was the Native Americans who were systemically slaughtered. You STILL don't see too many Native American doctors because the other groups in AA are still abusing the Native Americans by both their sheer number and their much improved socioeconomic status. Of course, then the argument comes that there aren't that many native American patients overall, and thus there is no need for that many Native American doctors. IF # is the main argument, then this is not an issue of historical disadvantage, is it? It's a mere issue of quota, and how your groups are not meeting them on your own merits.

I agree, Irish, Polish, Italians, Jews, Asians, have all had **** to deal with. And over time, they did overcome their differences and assimilate into our society. For the first four groups, I would argue that being white helped a lot. I know it was hard, it was realll hard to get assimilated. But it's a lto easier for a people to assimilate with American culture if they're white. I don't think we can argue that.

With Asians, I don't think many people realize that Asians are just any of the other new immigrant groups. Asians have only been coming en masse since the 1960s-70s. Asians these days get a bad rap for being "model minorities," like they're genetically smarter or something. I think Asians do a little better because theyre part of a new immigrant wave. The same thing happens with each new group of immigrants. Newer immigrant waves, whatever their color, tend to work much harder and value education much more. Furthermore, many immigrants are the hard working, professional degree types, who come to America because they see mroe opportunity here. It takes a lot to uproot a family and move across the sea, and it's usually the more motivated and professional people who do this. Naturally, their children (our generation) will reap the rewards, whether it be genetic or environmental. As a result, Asians are highly represented in upper levels of education. It's been the same with the Jews, the African/West Indian immigrants, and proabblay a lot more. Asians just get singled out because they happen to be a brand new "racial category."

With AfAms, the story was just so unbelievably different that many people don't understand how hard it is to be black in this country. We started with ~200 years of slavery, but that was abolished awhile ago. Afterwards, Jim Crow laws, segregation laws, grandfather clauses kept many blacks in the south from advancing far beyond their slave status. During the great migration to the north, blacks that migrated to northern cities were funneled into ghettoes, literarlly, by laws that restricted them from coming into white neighborhoods. Blacks were consistently kept out of better paying jobs. Now that brings us up to the 1960s.. we finally start to give equal rights... so what?? America has been keeping African Americans DOWN for the past 3 centuries. Now you all expect this entire group of Americans to just get up and brush things off and get right back into things? It has to happen eventually, I agree, but something like that will take time! More than the 40 years since the 1960s--generations, even.. I agree, blacks in this country can't keep using whitey as an excuse, they have to start changing things. but they're starting with a severe handicap, a 300 year handicap... give them a f*ckin break.

 

[Gbemi24]

I think you have the wrong country.

That is my f*cking point! America did not wrong the Irish like it wronged blacks so using the Irish as a "model minority" to argue against AA is absurd and insulting to those blacks that died in defense of their right to live in this country as equal citizens.

 

[W222]

Umm, To bring up the Jews comment (not one myself) but the 30s and 40s were kinda rough on the Jews. As well as Polls, Slovaks, Gypsies, Croats, basically any local ethnic group other than Germans or fair skinned Europeans. Frankly, the Holocast was kinda a bad thing. Made Jim Crow laws look like Kindergarten rules.

 

[Gbemi24]

Are you the one who posted in that IQ vs MCAT thread made a long time ago ? I'm trying to learn from your '' flowery '' diction

Oh my God! Why do you wanna remember threads like that?

 

[amnesia]

This country was formed by europeans, thus the country we see now is basically mainly all the hard work from the europeans who came here and did stuff. You can't tell a German or a Briton, but you can tell an Asian or a Black.

In any case, if you don't want to be discrimnated, just be a WASP.

 

[Gbemi24]

Umm, To bring up the Jews comment (not one myself) but the 30s and 40s were kinda rough on the Jews. As well as Polls, Slovaks, Gypsies, Croats, basically any local ethnic group other than Germans or fair skinned Europeans. Frankly, the Holocast was kinda a bad thing. Made Jim Crow laws look like Kindergarten rules.

Was America responsible for the Holocaust? Also, go tell the descendents of the blacks that were murdered during the Jim Crow days that Jim Crow was like "Kindergarten rules." If there is a ***** of the year award, you just won it.

 

[veenut]

With AfAms, the story was just so unbelievably different that many people don't understand how hard it is to be black in this country. We started with ~200 years of slavery, but that was abolished awhile ago. Afterwards, Jim Crow laws, segregation laws, grandfather clauses kept many blacks in the south from advancing far beyond their slave status. During the great migration to the north, blacks that migrated to northern cities were funneled into ghettoes, literarlly, by laws that restricted them from coming into white neighborhoods. Blacks were consistently kept out of better paying jobs. Now that brings us up to the 1960s.. we finally start to give equal rights... so what?? America has been keeping African Americans DOWN for the past 3 centuries. Now you all expect this entire group of Americans to just get up and brush things off and get right back into things? It has to happen eventually, I agree, but something like that will take time! More than the 40 years since the 1960s--generations, even.. I agree, blacks in this country can't keep using whitey as an excuse, they have to start changing things. but they're starting with a severe handicap, a 300 year handicap... give them a f*ckin break.

Nicely put, you said what I wanted to say but with better English, hehe.

 

[W222]

Go find the descendents of the 22 million people who basically vanished during WWII. You cant, they were decimated. And frankly, to blame me for anything regarding slavery is completely insane. My family left Germany and Scottland during the early 1900s. Dont talk to me about anything in that regard, we dealt with our own problems.

 

[Blake]

Oh my God! Why do you wanna remember threads like that?

I saw that thread recently. I know, it's as old as dirt, but someone revived it and I have to admit that I somehow enjoyed the debate, and of course, your vocabulary. Although english is my 2nd language, I plan on reaching an higher level of vocabulary in it. Anyway, I just thought I should mention you have great skills. Sorry if you took it the wrong way, it wasn't my intention

 

[W222]

The majority of americans were not responsible for slavery either, there was a "slight" influx of immigrants during the early 1900s, remember?

 

[Gbemi24]

I saw that thread recently. I know, it's as old as dirt, but someone revived it and I have to admit that I somehow enjoyed the debate, and of course, your vocabulary. Although english is my 2nd language, I plan on reaching an higher level of vocabulary in it. Anyway, I just thought I should mention you have great skills. Sorry if you took it the wrong way, it wasn't my intention

No I am not offended. I just don't like that thread because it wasn't my finest hour.

 

[veenut]

Given your skewed historical perspective, I'd say Amnesia is a very fitting name for you.

 

[Gbemi24]

Go find the descendents of the 22 million people who basically vanished during WWII. You cant, they were decimated. And frankly, to blame me for anything regarding slavery is completely insane. My family left Germany and Scottland during the early 1900s. Dont talk to me about anything in that regard, we dealt with our own problems.

You are too stupid to realize that I am not blaming you for slavery or Jim Crow. We are discussing discrimination in America so to bring up the holocaust is of no consequence. Get it?

Also, just in case you are still a toddler, it is unbecoming of a civilized person to call the murder of others "kindergarten rules."

 

[velo]

You are too stupid to realize that I am not blaming you for slavery or Jim Crow. We are discussing discrimination in America so to bring up the holocaust is of no consequence. Get it?

Also, just in case you are still a toddler, it is unbecoming of a civilized person to call the murder of others "kindergarten rules."

Ok come on, I don't necessarily agree with him, but you're unfairly twisiting his words. Someone said earlier that unlike several ethnic groups, including the jews, blacks were "extremely" discriminated against (i.e. slavery, lynchings, other horrible things) and he was bringing up the point that the jews, as an ethnic group, faced unbelievable oppression and hardship during the 30s and 40s....after the holocaust many jews found they had no homes to return to and, displaced, they emmigrated--many to isreal, many here--so it is relevant to our discussion on ethnic groups in this country who have overcome increadible discrimination and hardship.

Also, he did not mean to make light of the Jim Crow laws--the point of that statement was CLEARLY to illustrate the magnitude of the holocaust (6 MILLION!! people killed, many more affected) and I think you know that. Its not fair to accuse him of being racist and say that he doesn't think the jim crow laws were unjust....christ....

 

[DrThom]

That is my f*cking point! America did not wrong the Irish like it wronged blacks so using the Irish as a "model minority" to argue against AA is absurd and insulting to those blacks that died in defense of their right to live in this country as equal citizens.

I always laugh when people talk about how "America wrongs the blacks".

First off, America didn't start slavery. Slaves were brought to Amercia by traditions that were started in Africa. Africa actually started slavery (members of conquered tribes being brought into indentured servitude and sold to the highest bidder, which is a practice still practiced today in some places in Africa). But America was one of the first to realize that slavery was horrid and abolish it.

Second, the kind of racism seen during the 20th century was not isolated to America along. It was another aspect that was rampant worldwide. Again though, America was one of the first to realize the wrong behind it and try to correct it (England might've beat us). My point is, America was and is not a driving force behind racism but is on the front of try to correct it. If anything, human nature and fear is racism's best friend. Black people have gotten the bum wrap and had many ugly things happen to them which were pretty damn bad. But if you want to be correct, the system America was simply brought into wronged you...the country itself didn't start these practices.

 

[ms2209]

You are too stupid to realize that I am not blaming you for slavery or Jim Crow. We are discussing discrimination in America so to bring up the holocaust is of no consequence. Get it?

Also, just in case you are still a toddler, it is unbecoming of a civilized person to call the murder of others "kindergarten rules."

Even though that's basically what you're implying with regards to the other forms of racism that other ethnic groups have undergone? While it may be true that in the U.S.A., African Americans had it "worse" than every other ethnic group in the world, your downplaying of other people's struggles makes you pretty hypocritical. No ethnic group should have had to struggle with racism, and there's no need to turn each group's problems into some pissing contest.

 

[mochief2000]

To base AA on the "representation of society agrument" then we must have med school classes that are roughly 40% Hispanic-Latino-South American origin. Blacks would probably make up 25%, whites 25% and the remainder would go to Asians-others. Those of Latino decent are the largest "minority" in the US, soon to be the majority. Should classes represent this, if so the argument for African americans fails. You know which race got screwed worse than any other in the past 200 years, Native Americans.

Native Americans are URM's. And will every person stop using the number system. Out of 100 student we are roughly 4-5. Ya got some issues. All that is not fair whinning is really annoying. And yea, what about the kids that got in with Legacy. Is that fair? NOBODY complaining. They probably got u out of your spot by the 10's. Its funny how all the whites here say its not fair and all the blacks say it is. If AA benefitted ya'll, you know u would have 100 post defending it. Just like how mysteriously no one in the day say nothing wrong with Jim Crow laws. I have a lot of facts, all the way down to slavery about how it's not equal, getting better, but not equal. IF U NOT BLACK I DON'T EXPECT U TO AGREE.

 

[Gbemi24]

I always laugh when people talk about how "America wrongs the blacks".

First off, America didn't start slavery. Slaves were brought to Amercia by traditions that were started in Africa. Africa actually started slavery (members of conquered tribes being brought into indentured servitude and sold to the highest bidder, which is a practice still practiced today in some places in Africa). But America was one of the first to realize that slavery was horrid and abolish it.

Second, the kind of racism seen during the 20th century was not isolated to America along. It was another aspect that was rampant worldwide. Again though, America was one of the first to realize the wrong behind it and try to correct it (England might've beat us). My point is, America was and is not a driving force behind racism but is on the front of try to correct it. If anything, human nature and fear is racism's best friend. Black people have gotten the bum wrap and had many ugly things happen to them which were pretty damn bad. But if you want to be correct, the system America was simply brought into wronged you...the country itself didn't start these practices.

What is the relevance of this post? How does the fact that America did not start the institution of slavery mean that America did not wrong blacks?

Your argument is tatamount to me saying, "Eric did not start the practice of murder so Eric is not responsible for profiteering from murder."

What sense does this make?

 

[learss]

I always laugh when people talk about how "America wrongs the blacks".
First off, America didn't start slavery. Slaves were brought to Amercia by traditions that were started in Africa. Africa actually started slavery (members of conquered tribes being brought into indentured servitude and sold to the highest bidder, which is a practice still practiced today in some places in Africa). But America was one of the first to realize that slavery was horrid and abolish it.

You do know that the settlers tried to enslave Native Americans, but that did not work, so they starting bringing over African slaves. Just because we did not start the practice, doesn't mean we are not responsible for perpetuating it.Yeah, we abolished it, 246 years after it began.
And then after the US Government ended slavery, the US and state government created laws to keep blacks as second-class citizens, lived for another 100 years, until the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

 

[Gbemi24]

Even though that's basically what you're implying with regards to the other forms of racism that other ethnic groups have undergone? While it may be true that in the U.S.A., African Americans had it "worse" than every other ethnic group in the world, your downplaying of other people's struggles makes you pretty hypocritical. No ethnic group should have had to struggle with racism, and there's no need to turn each group's problems into some pissing contest.

I never downplayed any group's plight. I simply implied that one group had it worse than the other. Pointing out differences in degree is not the same as downplaying. I did not refer to any group's plight as "Kindergarten rules." Next time try to think before accusing someone of being a hypocrite.

 

[mochief2000]

Umm, To bring up the Jews comment (not one myself) but the 30s and 40s were kinda rough on the Jews. As well as Polls, Slovaks, Gypsies, Croats, basically any local ethnic group other than Germans or fair skinned Europeans. Frankly, the Holocast was kinda a bad thing. Made Jim Crow laws look like Kindergarten rules.

Kindergarteen Rules!!!
I know u did not say that! WIth as much anger i can formulate YOU'RE A Jacka**. The holocast was bad, no, not bad, horrible. what happened was a shame. but how long did it last? Now tell me how long did slavery last. How many died from Jim Crow laws?I can name a few massacres myself.How many slaves lived there entirely lives suffering. and to add salt to my wound, jim crow laws are still here. Just hidden.
ITs wrong for me to relate the two. I sorry to all the jews if I lessened the diginity of your ancestors.