A prof just stressed me out...your opinion?

[twiggers]

HI all,
Just came from meeting a prof at school about working in her lab (yes I got the position). So she asks me what my future plans are, etc.
I explain that I was pre-med until May then switched to going PhD route instead. Told her I was scrambling to find research positions, take GRES, get letters, etc. I am volunteeering (well it just turned to a paid position) at an autism research lab, her lab which is social and emotional development, and doing an honors thesis on attitudes towards gambling, specifically differences between Asian Americans and the rest of the population.
She then told me about some good programs such as Michigan (where she graduated from). And told me that I would have alot of explaining to do since everything I'm doing right now is so scattered and not concentrated in one area...ie; why am I not doing my honors thesis on a developmental issue?

I responded that my school doesn't have a clinical population, access to children makes it hard to put together a thesis in one year, the data at my autism lab is only in infancy stages (they're still recruiting subjects and coding and haven't begun analysis yet so I can't use their data pool for a thesis).
She said this scattering of interests could look bad on applications to top schools.
She also told me that any top schools (both clinical and developmental) want to see GRE scores in the 700s on both verbal and quant. and if I don't score that high I should cross out Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin (as well as UCLA but I'm not applying there).

Is she right? She just graduated from Michigan in '99...and she's scaring the crap out of me.
I'm thinking of adding a twist to my honors thesis by trying to determine when attitudes towards gambling developed through a retrospective questionnaire. Is it worth it? Or just stick to my original plan?

I have a wide range of interests which I think helps me in choosing schools. So many different things interest me that I could pick 20 professors studying different things and be interested in it. Is that bad?

HELP! Major freaking out here

On the other hand...she was really nice

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[PublicHealth]

HI all,
Just came from meeting a prof at school about working in her lab (yes I got the position). So she asks me what my future plans are, etc.
I explain that I was pre-med until May then switched to going PhD route instead. Told her I was scrambling to find research positions, take GRES, get letters, etc. I am volunteeering (well it just turned to a paid position) at an autism research lab, her lab which is social and emotional development, and doing an honors thesis on attitudes towards gambling, specifically differences between Asian Americans and the rest of the population.
She then told me about some good programs such as Michigan (where she graduated from). And told me that I would have alot of explaining to do since everything I'm doing right now is so scattered and not concentrated in one area...ie; why am I not doing my honors thesis on a developmental issue?

I responded that my school doesn't have a clinical population, access to children makes it hard to put together a thesis in one year, the data at my autism lab is only in infancy stages (they're still recruiting subjects and coding and haven't begun analysis yet so I can't use their data pool for a thesis).
She said this scattering of interests could look bad on applications to top schools.
She also told me that any top schools (both clinical and developmental) want to see GRE scores in the 700s on both verbal and quant. and if I don't score that high I should cross out Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin (as well as UCLA but I'm not applying there).

Is she right? She just graduated from Michigan in '99...and she's scaring the crap out of me.
I'm thinking of adding a twist to my honors thesis by trying to determine when attitudes towards gambling developed through a retrospective questionnaire. Is it worth it? Or just stick to my original plan?

I have a wide range of interests which I think helps me in choosing schools. So many different things interest me that I could pick 20 professors studying different things and be interested in it. Is that bad?

HELP! Major freaking out here

On the other hand...she was really nice

Questions:

(1) Why did you choose PhD instead of medicine?

(2) Who are you working with in conducting your research on gambling?

In response to your questions, clinical psychology is VERY competitive. But this doesn't mean that you need to obtain NIH funds and have specialized research interests in order to be competitive. The fact that you're doing research is important. If it's in an area that you may be interested in pursuing at the predoctoral level, even better. Matching your research interests to a potential faculty member in a clinical psych program is important, but if you don't have a perfect match, it will not preclude you from getting accepted. What's important is that you have research experience of some kind.

In terms of competitive clinical psych programs, I have heard that a good proportion of upper-level PhD students at UCLA and other top programs regret not having pursued medicine and psychiatry. Apparently, their professors are working them hard, keeping them around longer as "indentured servants/cheap labor." Combine this with an uncertain future, overemphasis on psychopharmacology in behavioral healthcare, and decreasing salaries for clinical psychologists, and it's clear why they feel that medicine/psychiatry is a better option. Something is truly wrong when social workers with an MSW can apply for the same jobs as psychologists with a PhD.

Psychologist jobs start at $40K-60K/year.
Psychiatrist jobs start at $120K-$175/year.

A psychiatrist friend of mine recently completed a fellowship in psychosomatic psychiatry. He just accepted a job offer that pays $250K/year.

 

[twiggers]

Chose PhD because only rewason I could find to be a doctor was for $$$. To me that's not good enough to devote my life to. Psychology courses are the only ones that interest me....I love the research I'm working on as an assistant right now. Chemistry, biology, etc. couldn't hold my attention for more than 30 minutes at a time.

The honors thesis on gambling is being done with a professor at my university....who actually was a clinical graduate, but since our school doesn't have a clinical program he is more geared towards social psych.

I have a pretty wide range of interests...but one thing I know for certain is that it has to involve children. All schools on my list have a child clinical track, and I am open to a variety of different research areas.
Future career goals include academia/research. Private practice is not much of an interest for me anymore....too much HMO crap. I'm married, hubby is older...we want to enjoy life..I don't want to spend 10 years working 80 hour weeks to build up a cash only practice.

 

[Kushkeeee]

Twiggers--

While it's important to listen to the advice of others, you also have to look at the whole picture. This professor that upset you so just graduated recently. I have found professors who are just recently out of school tend to emphasize the negatives rather than the positives, as well as they are far more critical of applicants' credentials. I have a theory as to why this is, but it's too early in the morning for me to get into that. My point is there might be some truth to what your professor is saying, but I also feel like some of it was her opinion. And you know what they say about opinions? Everybody's got one.

The fact that you have a wide range of interests/work experience seems to me like it would be deemed positively. True, having focus is important. But I think getting experience is more important at this point in your life than anything else. There are some people who don't decide what they want their concentration to be in until they are in grad school. The fact that you've narrowed it down already suggests to me you do have direction and focus. The fact is, opportunities for people with your education are limited; Hence your going back to become more educated. Therefore, you have to seize whatever opportunities come your way, and it sounds like that's what you are doing. Getting experience with research is the most important thing right now, and you are getting that. So stop stressing. You're fine.

If it makes you feel any better, you've done a hell of a lot more than I in terms of research and work experience, but that's not stopping me from applying to programs.

 

[Janusdog]

I think your professor is actually correct. Today you really need to be focused on what you want and be able to demonstrate that focus.

I'm one of those people who believe that education, especially undergrad, is for experimentation with both interests and identity. However, that is not the trend amongst programs and people getting admitted to clinical psych programs have walked out of undergrad with several research studies pertaining to their area of interest. I've even heard (through my professional journals) that the trend is to take undergrads who already have a record of obtaining funding!

Additionally, if I'm understanding your situation correctly, autism is a hot area and there are many, many opportunities to get involved in developmental research. It will look strange trying to sell that you are interested in autism (if that is what your plan is) without having had more autism experience. Perhaps you could look into getting certified in Applied Behavior Analysis? That might demonstrate focus. I am actually a specialist in developmental disabilities and if I were interviewing you, I would wonder why you took a lab job in gambling as well.

It's really outrageously competitive and it's an uphill battle with very little financial payoff at the end. My advice is to not pick a career by default. Make sure you looooove it.

 

[twiggers]

Well autism is not my specific area of interest.........more like the sprectrum of autism and comorbidity with other disorders among the spectrum.
Having just recently changed my mind it's tough to get more experience.....autism is a "hot" subject in my area right now.....but I felt like I did not want to get sucked into only one area. I thought, apparently naively, that a wide range of lab jobs would help me to focus on an area I really like.
As for gambling...it's my own honors thesis...its a topic I thought I could have fun with, not one that I want to work on later figured I'd take the opportunity while I have time in undergrad. Plus my school has absolutely no clinical program and no clinical labs, so I'm very limited. Another issue is time - I simply don't have the time to recruit a youth population....psych undergrads are much easier to get to participate.

I'm thinking of putting a spin on the gambling research by incorporating a developmental issue....such as when the development of attitudes towards gambling developed...ie; what age range did gambling become acceptable to person and are there differences between Asian Americans and the rest of the population.

I simply do not have the time in my life to pursue a speciality degree before a PhD for reasons I don't think are appropriate to go into. I'm already old..and will probably have grey hair by the time I'm done PhD

Suggestions anyone for how to spin this wide range of interests in my personal statement? I was thinking of going with something like trying to figure out what I want to do and by participating in a wide range of things I was able to narrow down what I wanted to do. I also feel that the research experience was important no matter what the subject area. Introduction to data management, saubject recruitment, analysis of data, statistical interpretations, etc. Regardless of subject area these things remain relatively the same.
Am I way off base here?

 

[edieb]

A correction - MSWs and MAs work under the supervision of PhDs. Most, if not all, states require this. Some MSWs have private practices; however, they don't get to bill as much per hour, do not do testing, do not diagnose, and most of the mentally ill will go to PhDs before they go to MSWs. Also, PhDs have much more autonomy than social workers have.

 

[Janusdog]

Not all MA level clinicians need to work under supervision. Many states have a licensing exam for MA level people -- in Illinois it's the LCPC (Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor). Social workers can practice independently if they're LCSWs.

Whether they're 'supposed' to or not, they diagnose. I hate to say it, but I know many social workers that are pushing for testing privileges and are teaching the MMPI in school. You can thank the APA for trying to undo some of the testing protections because they believe that technicians should be allowed to administer some of the more tedious tests while they supervise. How long do you think it'll take for those technicians to believe they can test and interpret?

Ultimately someone might have to sign off on work for individuals with MAs who don't have an independent license, but honestly, the reimbursement rate for therapy is not much higher for doctoral level folk.

I like your idea about gambling, actually. Gambling and gambling amongst youth is getting a huge amount of attention. If you haven't read Bringing Down The House, you might enjoy that, just as an aside.

 

[twiggers]

[Thanks Janus! It really interests me since my university has a huge number of Asian Americans attending, there are 3 casinos nearby, and Reno and Tahoe are 2 hours away. From what I have heard gambling at frat parties, etc. has become really popular.

I know the gambling really doesn't have anything to do with autism or social and emotional development of children.....but do you really think the diversity will look bad on my apps?
Any suggestions for putting a positive spin on it?

 

[twiggers]

Well..now I really don't like that prof lol.
She just emailed me to tell me that the number of hours I could work in her lab were not enough....hmmmm she couldn't tell me that 2 months ago when I first approached her? She probably just didn't like me.....or maybe knew my interests weren't in her area and that I would be wasting my time. Guess I can cross her off my list of potential recommendation writers.

So now I'm down to autism research at one lab and the honors thesis on gamblig. Still kinda diverse...but it's only 2 separate areas now arg!

 

[winnie]

I agree with Kushkeee, Twiggers. I think you're doing fine. More than fine. In my opinion the expections to be published, have funding, etc. only really apply to the top schools. My understanding is that you're not planning to apply only to the top schools, right?

I think your idea for your personal statement sounds good too. The important thing is a familiarity with the mechanics rather than mastery of the content of the research, so go through and describe the different responsibilities you've had. State that you took jobs that would allow you to get a range of experience and to confirm that you are indeed suited to a career as a researcher.

I find it hard to believe that the majority of grad programs are only looking for applicants who are specialists in a single field of expertise. I think it is important to remember that committees are looking for variety. They don't want an intake of people with identical research interests, backgrounds and experiences. That would be boring. If I were you, I would play up the things that make you stand out from the pack. If you're older, make it a plus. Explain why you decided to go back to school, what got you interested in working with children, why you didn't just blindly follow a path from undergrad to grad school.

Then go on to describe the areas of research you are particularly interested in. But I would be careful not to be over-restrictive there too. Say that you have an interest in autism, especially comorbidity and something else. Then be prepared to discuss autism in an intelligent way at the interview.

I'm no expert, but I have talked to a few people on admissions boards, and that's what I've gotten out of it.

 

[twiggers]

Thanks Winnie! I greatly appreciate the advice and encouragement.....it seems like everything I do right now is consumed with grad school.

When I sit outside to smoke I even bring my GRE study book with me...it's horrible (no smoking lectures please).

You mentioned becoming more knowledgeable on autism.....although I want to work it into later studies I am not finding that many clinical programs have autistic research (seems to be more of a developmental issue).....I am thinking that I will mention my future interest in autism but that I would like to focus more on psychopathology with an interest of later working autism into my theses (the whole comorbidity/autism spectrum interest).
Would it hurt to be more knowledgeable about autism right now? Or focus on the more psychopathological issues?


Ahhh the interviewing...I'm sure I'll have a whole thread on that as it gets closer...tips, etc.

 

[Janusdog]

You probably want to get your booty to one of the U of Cali schools like Davis or UCSF if you want to do a lot of research in autism. Stanford also has an autism postdoc. Other options are Yale or UNC- CH. Autism you can always do postdoctoral if you spend some time in a clinical program concentrating on children, adolescents, and developmental disabilities. BTW, I'm not pulling this out of thin air, I'm an autism specialist more or less.

For me it got to the point where I had to make the decision whether or not I wanted to be one of the Autism Disciples. I decided I didn't and got into supervision/admin. People make their life around autism and it's all consuming, believe me. It's also very taxing-- at least it was for me because I was debriefing the parents on test results all of the time and I started having nightmares because I was devastating parents on a daily basis.

Gambling is an area, IMHO, that is not yet as saturated as autism is becoming. I think you could really make a name for yourself if you were interested in comparing different ethnicities and beliefs about gambling. In the book I mentioned, the protagonists are Asian and spend a good amount of time explaining how integral gambling is to some Asian cultures. I found that fascinating as I never knew that.

Again, really, pick what you love. Spin is easy as long as you believe what you're saying.

 

[twiggers]

Hi Janus,

Actually UC Davis is my school...I'm currently working at the med center there at a big autism research facility (the project I'm on is collaborating with UCLA in fact).

Specialization in autism post-doc makes alot of sense.....I just really don't see the autism research area coming up at alot of Midwest schools. The Midwest seems to have alot of clinical programs with a community track.

I also hear you about the "spin" thing. I really got onto the autism project because I really just wanted to get a feel for what working on a research project would be like. So it's not like I would be really emphasizing the autism aspect of it at this point.

The gambling thing................if it's not so saturated of a research area....how can I present my interest in it if there are no researchers studying it (well in all the schools I've picked it hasn't come up). There's been alot of profs interested in prevention/intervention, depression, and so on and so on. Is it something that I can list as a secondary interest? I'm just worried about my interests overlapping with the professor. Or say if a prof is interested in depression or anxiety disorders I can say I'm interested in comorbidity of pathological gambling and those other disorders?

As I've said before I'm really open to alot of different areas at this point in my life.....so if I see a prof studying something I'm interested in I'll email them and state my interests in that area. I'm hoping once I actually get into a school I can refine my interests and include some extra topics that I also think are interesting.

OK enough of my blabbering.....if I had just won the million dollars in Reno this weekend I wouldn't even be worrying about this

 

[lazure]

I got into several clinical programs based on three years of research in perception and social development (separate labs). I had no intention of continuing the perception research but I was able to convey my enthusiasm in our findings and projects (which included flying in microgravity) and I was able to explain why I chose clinical over perception. I am now doing research (my doctorate) that is nowhere near what I did in undergrad. If you intend to work in the same limited area in undergrad and grad then in my opinion you're limiting yourself.

Gambling is now seen as an addiction consequently you're able to apply the same general model as alcohol and drug addiction. Read up on the general models and general applications. Be able to present your knowledge of your research area, its applications and express desire to learn about new areas...

 

[twiggers]

Thanks Lazure! I appreciate the advice....especially about being knowledgeable about the subject area you're expressing interest in. But by being knowledgeable about the area, the interviewers are not expecting you to be an expert on it are they? Reading up on the general models, and maybe some current research should be enough shouldn't it?

After applying to schools and narrowing down my faculty list, that will be my next task to get completed.

After all this darn work I better get in somewhere!

 

[Janusdog]

Twiggers,

Have you checked out Division 50 of the APA (Addictions)...perhaps there are some faculty there that do gambling?

I think that if I were going to convince people I was interested in this, I would write my application essay talking about that interest and cite relevant statistics to show that it is a growing social problem. Also, perhaps some of the faculty that you might want to work with are actually located in schools of public health? I dunno...I googled and didn't find much. It would take snooping.

 

[twiggers]

Hiya Janus,

I've been getting some positive responses from professors....I've been finding that some who deal with general additions such as alcohol and drugs are replying that they have interests in gambling as well. I think I may play down the gambling aspect on some apps, and those with addiction faculty I'll play it up.
Arggg..this whole process seems harder than the med school one...at least it's centralized applications unlike grad school

 

[Janusdog]

I remember that process. It really was bad. I had this lofty goal and ended up having to decrease the number of schools I applied to because they were so long.

Do you have a study buddy? (Or in this case, an application buddy?) Having support from others really helps.

I miss Cali, so wah, when I heard you were in NorCal. I spent two years in SF and the only reason I left was the cost of living. In general there seem to be more opportunities out there, so hopefully I'll be back in the next couple of years.

 

[twiggers]

I'm in the valley about 70 miles from SF. If I could afford to live in the city I would never leave...but it is just too expensive.

I have noone who is applying for clinical programs...but I do have several friends at school applying to other types of programs....right now we're all at the GRE stress point

What do you mean about the applications being so long that you had to reduce amount? Do you mean cost wise or...???

 

[Janusdog]

They were too long. I had quite a few essay questions and I just burned out after a while and realized I wasn't putting my best foot forward.

 

[twiggers]

ahhh OK I understand now.