just met a newly licensed psych. 500k...loans. that's the post.

[BuckeyeLove]

I know we've had these convos on here before but...I'm just in total shock and need some validation for said shock. And she was super flippant about it, said it will all be gone in 10 years. This just can't be a good thing for the field.

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[psych.meout]

Probably tells you something about the clinical training she received, including how much self-insight it helped her develop.

 

[WisNeuro]

JFC, some people are ****ing clueless. This is why I oppose loan repayments programs as they currently exist.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

That's...a lot of money.

 

[WisNeuro]

My spouse, who went to an expensive undergrad, out of state, and also med school, with no family financial help, was well under that figure for debt.

 

[summerbabe]

That's a stupid amount of money.

And she was super flippant about it, said it will all be gone in 10 years.

As somebody who was basically using loans like a credit card with no cap and no consideration for future impact, I wonder if they have the organization and financial competence to do all of the bureaucratic things needed over the next 10 years to actually take advantage of an IDR or PAYE plan.

If I recall, not all types of loans count towards govt forgiveness programs and unless they were in school a massively long time and also maxed out every cent offered via federal financial aid, I wonder if/how much of that $500k figure comes from non-qualifying loans.

But to the original point, it's basically unethical what some PsyD programs charge. Even ones that have good training intentions like Denver or Palo Alto.

 

[PsyDr]

Contrary opinion: I respect it.

It's like that old saying, "When you owe the bank $1M, you have a problem. When you owe the bank $100M, the bank has a problem. " That person went for the gold.

She'll never have to worry about buying a house, getting a car loan, getting approved for a traditional apartment, getting married to a fiscally reasonable person.....

 

[Ollie123]

I just can't fathom it. The mortgage on my home is substantially less, likely at a lower interest rate, has a longer pay timeline, is split between my wife and I (both of whom earn more than most psychologists) and it is still an uncomfortably large bill. I assume she is on some sort of income-based-repayment plan, but even so that is simply oppressive.

I just don't get the "why." I can't imagine having the level of attachment to any career path that would be needed to justify taking on loans that large.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I know we've had these convos on here before but...I'm just in total shock and need some validation for said shock. And she was super flippant about it, said it will all be gone in 10 years. This just can't be a good thing for the field.

Maybe they should teach microeconomics 1st year these days

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I know we've had these convos on here before but...I'm just in total shock and need some validation for said shock. And she was super flippant about it, said it will all be gone in 10 years. This just can't be a good thing for the field.

[sorta] suppresses OnlyFans rejoinder...

'...gone in 10 years...'

 

[WisNeuro]

[sorta] suppresses OnlyFans rejoinder...

'...gone in 10 years...'

With all of the news stories of teachers and c-list celebs turning to OF, I have to imagine that the market there will be saturated in no time.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

With all of the news stories of teachers and c-list celebs turning to OF, I have to imagine that the market there will be saturated in no time.

And/or that OnlyFans' stock price will be heavily impacted by political decisions determining the viability of the PSLF program over the next couple of decades

 

[MAClinician]

That's a stupid amount of money.

As somebody who was basically using loans like a credit card with no cap and no consideration for future impact, I wonder if they have the organization and financial competence to do all of the bureaucratic things needed over the next 10 years to actually take advantage of an IDR or PAYE plan.

If I recall, not all types of loans count towards govt forgiveness programs and unless they were in school a massively long time and also maxed out every cent offered via federal financial aid, I wonder if/how much of that $500k figure comes from non-qualifying loans.

But to the original point, it's basically unethical what some PsyD programs charge. Even ones that have good training intentions like Denver or Palo Alto.

She is screwed lol. Unless she gets a different type of loan forgiveness program that is NOT PSLF. But no way that all of that 500K was in eligible loans. Also curious if that is 500k in principle only or 500k including the accrued interest. Either way….insanely stupid move.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

View attachment 379035
She is screwed lol. Unless she gets a different type of loan forgiveness program that is NOT PSLF. But no way that all of that 500K was in eligible loans. Also curious if that is 500k in principle only or 500k including the accrued interest. Either way….insanely stupid move.

I think where people take out more is grad plus right? Which can then be consolidated with the others into one giant direct loan. Only way I can think the number was that high. Maybe she was referring to interest as well.

 

[randommedstudent24]

View attachment 379035
She is screwed lol. Unless she gets a different type of loan forgiveness program that is NOT PSLF. But no way that all of that 500K was in eligible loans. Also curious if that is 500k in principle only or 500k including the accrued interest. Either way….insanely stupid move.

There is no aggregate limit on grad plus loans. Private medical schools (think DO schools) are tipping the 100k a year mark in COA. Part of that is the increase in cost of living so the loan limits go up to pay for rent, gas, food, & travel for rotations.

 

[Sanman]

Think she will take a job for $80k/yr? My future private practice needs folks with debt above their eyeballs that can never afford to quit. The math is easier that way.

 

[Sanman]

There is no aggregate limit on grad plus loans. Private medical schools (think DO schools) are tipping the 100k a year mark in COA. Part of that is the increase in cost of living so the loan limits go up to pay for rent, gas, food, & travel for rotations.

Nothing like taking out huge loans to join an industry that is fast transitioning from an ownership/partnership model to an employee model. That never leads to pay cuts.

 

[Freud’sMommy]

What's the overall interest rate?

 

[PsyDr]

Think she will take a job for $80k/yr? My future private practice needs folks with debt above their eyeballs that can never afford to quit. The math is easier that way.

This person does not math.

 

[Sanman]

This person does not math.

So $65k/yr to start? I'll even throw in $3k in loan repayment incentives.

 

[MCParent]

“If I make 80k a year I’ll pay that back in like 6.25 years!”
Some people actually math like that.

 

[PsyDr]

So $65k/yr to start? I'll even throw in $3k in loan repayment incentives.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Maybe the more important question here to ask is...why is this important to you? So what if that is what she is facing, what she thinks, what she did? When you go home for the day, did you do right by you? Did you make money? Are you supporting you and your family? Are you following your values and passions? Maybe they are too...or not, but so what?

 

[PsyDr]

Maybe the more important question here to ask is...why is this important to you? So what if that is what she is facing, what she thinks, what she did? When you go home for the day, did you do right by you? Did you make money? Are you supporting you and your family? Are you following your values and passions? Maybe they are too...or not, but so what?

Law of averages.

If someone is making $1MM/yr, the national average goes up. And then I can negotiate for higher rates for myself. If someone wants to play Lloyd Christmas and get $30k/yr, that lowers the averages, which lowers my negotiating power.

 

[psych.meout]

Maybe the more important question here to ask is...why is this important to you? So what if that is what she is facing, what she thinks, what she did? When you go home for the day, did you do right by you? Did you make money? Are you supporting you and your family? Are you following your values and passions? Maybe they are too...or not, but so what?

What do you think the quality of training is from an institution whose cost leads to that kind of debt vs. a fully funded program?

 

[psyduckies]

Me wanting to vomit in having 52k in loan debt seeing this… cannot imagine

 

[texanpsychdoc]

What do you think the quality of training is from an institution whose cost leads to that kind of debt vs. a fully funded program?

Who knows...maybe low? Maybe not? At the end of the day, what will one's strongly-worded texts on a forum accomplish? Will this somehow sway folks in congress and the people who control the federal purse strings to do something about it? I am just confused as to how worrying, being frustrated, or lamenting on this will effect any change or outcomes. If you don't like the fact someone spent 6 figures of debt to become a psychologist....so what? Send an anonymous email to some DCT of a diploma mill. That would likely have more of an impact than talking about it here. What does end up happening is we stoke frustration and an echo chamber of discontent. I suppose that could be entertaining on a Friday evening.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Law of averages.

If someone is making $1MM/yr, the national average goes up. And then I can negotiate for higher rates for myself. If someone wants to play Lloyd Christmas and get $30k/yr, that lowers the averages, which lowers my negotiating power.

That's a lot to place on the shoulders of one person.

 

[PsyDr]

That's a lot to place on the shoulders of one person.

You’re in a class that’s graded on a curve. Unexpectedly, someone gets 100% of the questions right. The rest of you don’t.

Same principle.

It’s the same reason we should encourage others to make a LOT more money. If you make $1MM/ yr, it will skew the average. then I can ask for more. Then you can ask for more.

Same reason why only an idiot would lowball their employees. It’s short sighted, and self defeating.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

You’re in a class that’s graded on a curve. Unexpectedly, someone gets 100% of the questions right. The rest of you don’t.

Same principle.

It’s the same reason we should encourage others to make a LOT s’more money. If you make $1MM/ yr, it will skew the average. then I can ask for more

I really don't worry about others. It's too exhausting and I'm fairly lazy with a lot of things. Put in the work, earn your money, go do stuff that aligns with your values and passions, call it a day.

 

[MCParent]

I really don't worry about others. It's too exhausting and I'm fairly lazy with a lot of things. Put in the work, earn your money, go do stuff that aligns with your values and passions, call it a day.

…you’re posting a reply to someone you disagree with on the internet tho. With multiple follow ups.

🤷‍♂️

Maybe consider that virtue signaling is also a waste of time.

 

[PsyDr]

I really don't worry about others. It's too exhausting and I'm fairly lazy with a lot of things. Put in the work, earn your money, go do stuff that aligns with your values and passions, call it a day.

Yeah, those lazy people who complete 20+ years of education.

Encourage others to succeed. Make fun of people who make poor financial decisions. Be ethical in business. Or go full Bernie Madoff criminal if not. Play by the rules or go all out.

A rising tide raises all ships.

Edit: @MCParent on the long term prove me wrong. Why would advocating for increased income NOT improve the field, relative to taking what you can get from peopel.

 

[MCParent]

Yeah, those lazy people who complete 20+ years of education.

Encourage others to succeed. Make fun of people who make poor financial decisions. Be ethical in business. Or go full Bernie Madoff criminal if not. Play by the rules or go all out.

A rising tide raises all ships.

Edit: @MCParent on the long term prove me wrong. Why would advocating for increased income NOT improve the field, relative to taking what you can get from peopel.

Did you mean to tag @texanpsychdoc ? I agree with you completely.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

…you’re posting a reply to someone you disagree with on the internet tho. With multiple follow ups.

🤷‍♂️

Maybe consider that virtue signaling is also a waste of time.

Okay...and? Are we not allowed to express alternative opinions? Do alternative opinions require an in-depth comprehensive review of the logic involved? Can we just keep it simple without needing labels?

Also, I am confused as to where "virtue signaling" is being referenced, but if it helps make your point, congrats?

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Yeah, those lazy people who complete 20+ years of education.

Encourage others to succeed. Make fun of people who make poor financial decisions. Be ethical in business. Or go full Bernie Madoff criminal if not. Play by the rules or go all out.

A rising tide raises all ships.

Edit: @MCParent on the long term prove me wrong. Why would advocating for increased income NOT improve the field, relative to taking what you can get from peopel.

Okie dokie. Whatever floats your boat I suppose.

 

[Sanman]

I really don't worry about others. It's too exhausting and I'm fairly lazy with a lot of things. Put in the work, earn your money, go do stuff that aligns with your values and passions, call it a day.

Would you worry if all of the other psych practices start charging $50/hr or $25/hr and the insurers that you are paneled with all start to offer you that rate? I would. Even your VA salary and the recent special salary rates are determined by compensation in the area offered by competition.

 

[MiniLop]

I share people's concerns about what these kinds of high-debt programs do the profession. AND I'm sometimes concerned that the mocking tone we take (and I've certainly been guilty of this) on this forum doesn't help dissuade people from taking the diploma route route, and may in fact do the opposite. When people feel mocked, they stop listening.

 

[NewNeuroDemic]

I share people's concerns about what these kinds of high-debt programs do the profession. AND I'm sometimes concerned that the mocking tone we take (and I've certainly been guilty of this) on this forum doesn't help dissuade people from taking the diploma route route, and may in fact do the opposite. When people feel mocked, they stop listening.

I agree that I (we on the forum) shouldn't mock. I also struggle with empathy/understanding for folks who choose to attend such sketchy programs and receive the myriad attendant consequences. As an undergrad about 15 years ago, I read every online article and book I could find on this whole clinical psych thing. I spoke with professors about their training paths. I found the CVs of authors of articles/books I was reading, so I could scope out what they did. In short, I was able to learn what to do and what not to do and make relevant preparatory choices. This information is likely more readily available now, so when I hear of situations like this or receive a job application from such a trainee, I cannot muster the feels for them. It seems to me, at this point in our field's history, that they were either negligent in their due diligence or are trying to cut corners.

 

[PsyDr]

Did you mean to tag @texanpsychdoc ? I agree with you completely.

My bad. I read your response wrong. Sorry.

 

[Sanman]

I share people's concerns about what these kinds of high-debt programs do the profession. AND I'm sometimes concerned that the mocking tone we take (and I've certainly been guilty of this) on this forum doesn't help dissuade people from taking the diploma route route, and may in fact do the opposite. When people feel mocked, they stop listening.

Honestly, I doubt that we will dissuade many people from the route unless they are genuinely unaware of the options. Plenty of folks are happy to spend 'not their money' on becoming a doctor as easily as possible. Not a lot of people want to hear the work harder, be geographically flexible, and fiscally responsible version of how to do that. Similar to how most people do not want to hear advice on how they should by a used Toyota Corolla instead of some other flashy car.

 

[MiniLop]

Honestly, I doubt that we will dissuade many people from the route unless they are genuinely unaware of the options. Plenty of folks are happy to spend 'not their money' on becoming a doctor as easily as possible. Not a lot of people want to hear the work harder, be geographically flexible, and fiscally responsible version of how to do that. Similar to how most people do not want to hear advice on how they should by a used Toyota Corolla instead of some other flashy car.

I disagree! I'm one of the people that this forum talked out of getting a psyd. I think the information that people give here can positively impact people. I think lots of people read the forum who don't post. I also think that our message is more effective if we're respectful rather than snide.

 

[PsyDr]

I share people's concerns about what these kinds of high-debt programs do the profession. AND I'm sometimes concerned that the mocking tone we take (and I've certainly been guilty of this) on this forum doesn't help dissuade people from taking the diploma route route, and may in fact do the opposite. When people feel mocked, they stop listening.

I disagree.

1) The short format of this forum doesn't really favor a reassuring and slow process.
2) How many times have your friends laugh at your bad ideas? That process stopped me from buying a glider plane.
3) What is more mean?
a. Hurting someone's feelings in the short run, saving them from a bad decision that affects them for decades
OR
b. Being nice to someone, having them misinterpret the idea as support, and letting have long term consequences?

 

[WisNeuro]

Maybe the more important question here to ask is...why is this important to you? So what if that is what she is facing, what she thinks, what she did? When you go home for the day, did you do right by you? Did you make money? Are you supporting you and your family? Are you following your values and passions? Maybe they are too...or not, but so what?

Because we are subsidizing this person's terrible life choices. We have the right to be critical when it is our tax money that supports this trash. Just like I get the right to be critical of other ways that my tax dollars are wasted when they could be used for things that actually benefit me and society at large.

 

[PsyDr]

Because we are subsidizing this person's terrible life choices. We have the right to be critical when it is our tax money that supports this trash. Just like I get the right to be critical of other ways that my tax dollars are wasted when they could be used for things that actually benefit me and society at large.

Disagree. Student loans are one of the best financial vehicles open to the federal government. Loan out a ton of money, at above prime rates, ensure people can never discharge that debt, then use that money to offer loans at below prime rates . It's why, in 2013, Congress legally tied t bill rates to student loan rates. The passive income is used to pay the interest on T bills, while getting a profit. Those student loans, combined with T bills and the petro dollar are the only things that solidify our fiat currency.

However, I think that the federal government shouldn't be involved in student loans.

It's like when people say that we should pay off the national debt, when 18% of the national debt is the T bill. Can you imagine what would happen to the US credit rating and USD valuation? Oh hey, we borrowed some money and guaranteed you some returns. Psych!.

 

[WisNeuro]

Disagree. Student loans are one of the best financial vehicles open to the federal government. Loan out a ton of money, at above prime rates, ensure people can never discharge that debt, then use that money to offer loans at below prime rates . It's why, in 2013, Congress legally tied t bill rates to student loan rates. The passive income is used to pay the interest on T bills, while getting a profit. Those student loans, combined with T bills and the petro dollar are the only things that solidify our fiat currency.

However, I think that the federal government shouldn't be involved in student loans.

It's like when people say that we should pay off the national debt, when 18% of the national debt is the T bill. Can you imagine what would happen to the US credit rating and USD valuation? Oh hey, we borrowed some money and guaranteed you some returns. Psych!.

How does the government come out ahead on discharging 400k+ in student loan debt in this case?

 

[PsyDr]

How does the government come out ahead on discharging 400k+ in student loan debt in this case?

I don’t want to math… but charging 6.8% in interest in student loans when t bills are paying less than 2%… there’s some specific numbers where they’ve already made profit.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don’t want to math… but charging 6.8% in interest in student loans when t bills are paying less than 2%… there’s some specific numbers where they’ve already made profit.

I'll agree that it's a good deal when it's a loan where a person took out a reasonable amount of money, but when you get to the absurdly high write offs of many of the diploma mills, I am skeptical and would need to see the real math, as they are not collecting anywhere near the amount of loan writeoff, even at a high interest rate for some of the forgiveness plans.

 

[bcliff]

I wonder what the correlation / comfort with being critical of others' poor financial choices is between opinions expressed in this thread and debt incurred. I have no debt as a result of attending a small cohort / fully funded PhD program in a low CoL / typically considered "meh" part of the country, so take from that what you will. I'll admit that I find it irritating when colleagues appear to have taken such a wildly different approach to their education and financial future.

 

[MCParent]

Re “tone”: I think responses would have been different in tone if the original post had been “wow, I just got an incoming class of interns and all ten have 100k in debt.” That probably would have elicited more sympathy and seen the programs the students went to as the problem. 500k in debt for a psych degree is literally ridiculous—as in, worthy of ridicule. It’s the product of a long series of personal finance errors. That value is way, way beyond the norm (Applicant Survey - 2023)

 

[Sanman]

I wonder what the correlation / comfort with being critical of others' poor financial choices is between opinions expressed in this thread and debt incurred. I have no debt as a result of attending a small cohort / fully funded PhD program in a low CoL / typically considered "meh" part of the country, so take from that what you will. I'll admit that I find it irritating when colleagues appear to have taken such a wildly different approach to their education and financial future.

I don't have a problem with others taking on high debt loads. I have a problem with others taking on high debt loads with no intention of fully repaying the loan. It offends me as a taxpayer and someone that has fully repaid my loan obligations.