A question of ethics?

[koerwk49]

More of a poll really but I'm up for discussion also so just post your opinion.

If I can ever become a veterinarian I'm pretty sure that I would make the personal choice of not doing docking, cropping and possibly dewclaw removal. A reason for the elected procedure might be able to change my mind but docking and cropping is not something I would normally choose to do. I say possibly dewclaw removal because my dog had his dewclaws but they did get caught on certain things but never hurt him (or enough for me to know) so I'm a little on the fence on that one. Personally I wouldn't have my dogs dewclaws removed.

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[CatVet2Be]

That's one of the great things about vet medicine, you have the right to choose what procedures you are or are not comfortable with. Many doctors I know won't do ear crops, not just for ethical reasons but because they decided it's not worth the possible repercussions if the ears don't turn out quite right. Dealing with an angry owner of a show dog whose cosmetic procedure didn't turn out as expected isn't worth the drama.

I personally don't have a problem with tail cropping and dewclaw removal but I do have an issue with declaws. I have never assisted in a convenience one (a medically necessary one is different to me) and I explained to my bosses that I have strong feelings over the issue and would not feel right taking part in the procedure. I also decided a long time ago that as a vet I will not perform convenience declawing. I focus on talking to the owners about behavioral training and tread lightly with those adamant on declawing their cats so as not to offend them. But I will never find it ok to choose your couch over your cat. In the last 10 years I've replace my couch, however I still have the same cat I started with(+ a few more 🙄).

 

[Tine]

That's one of the great things about vet medicine, you have the right to choose what procedures you are or are not comfortable with. Many doctors I know won't do ear crops, not just for ethical reasons but because they decided it's not worth the possible repercussions if the ears don't turn out quite right. Dealing with an angry owner of a show dog whose cosmetic procedure didn't turn out as expected isn't worth the drama.

I personally don't have a problem with tail cropping and dewclaw removal but I do have an issue with declaws. I have never assisted in a convenience one (a medically necessary one is different to me) and I explained to my bosses that I have strong feelings over the issue and would not feel right taking part in the procedure. I also decided a long time ago that as a vet I will not perform convenience declawing. I focus on talking to the owners about behavioral training and tread lightly with those adamant on declawing their cats so as not to offend them. But I will never find it ok to choose your couch over your cat. In the last 10 years I've replace my couch, however I still have the same cat I started with(+ a few more 🙄).

Since I'm more of a cat person than a dog person, I have more of an opinion about declawing than the others. Just briefly though, although I don't see much sense in docking/cropping (normally, but there is always happy tail and chronic ear infections to think about,) I suppose it's not my job to tell people what their pets should look like. As for dewclaw removal, I definitely don't see anything wrong with that, especially when it's done as a tiny puppy. It's such an easy procedure, and they only cry for a second. I've seen a lot of dewclaws get caught on things, and they cry a lot longer when that happens.

Ok on to declawing. As a certified crazy cat lady who would rather clean up poop from the carpet every day than euthanize my bowel incontinent cat, I would never, ever choose my couch over my cat. That being said, when you love cats that much, you have to understand that not everyone is a bleeding heart animal lover like you. These people that are cutting off their cats' toes because they don't want their $3,000 couch destroyed might provide a perfectly wonderful home for their cats, but just wouldn't sacrifice such an expensive object for the cats. That's a very hard thing for us cat ladies to understand. I know a lot of these people would get rid of their cats if they had to deal with the destruction, and then those cats might end up homeless. I've known a lot of cats in great homes that live very happy indoor lives who's owners would not have kept them if they were not declawed. I've also seen one too many homeless cats to be that picky about who is adopting them. Sorry if this is hard to read, I've been studying all day and I'm exhausted. All in all, as long as the cat never goes outdoors, I would rather it be declawed and have a nice home than not have a home at all.

 

[dyachei]

Ok on to declawing. As a certified crazy cat lady who would rather clean up poop from the carpet every day than euthanize my bowel incontinent cat, I would never, ever choose my couch over my cat. That being said, when you love cats that much, you have to understand that not everyone is a bleeding heart animal lover like you. These people that are cutting off their cats' toes because they don't want their $3,000 couch destroyed might provide a perfectly wonderful home for their cats, but just wouldn't sacrifice such an expensive object for the cats. That's a very hard thing for us cat ladies to understand. I know a lot of these people would get rid of their cats if they had to deal with the destruction, and then those cats might end up homeless. I've known a lot of cats in great homes that live very happy indoor lives who's owners would not have kept them if they were not declawed. I've also seen one too many homeless cats to be that picky about who is adopting them. Sorry if this is hard to read, I've been studying all day and I'm exhausted. All in all, as long as the cat never goes outdoors, I would rather it be declawed and have a nice home than not have a home at all.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here. And with the studies I've seen on laser declawing, the consequences for the animal are not bad at all compared to other methods.

I would probably not do tail docking or ear cropping when I work. Dewclaws I would probably do. Just because they can become a problem very easily and I see it more as preventative medicine.

 

[DVMhopeful]

I am a little on the fence as far as declawing goes myself. I agree that it's better for the cat to be declawed and have a home, then to be homeless. But, I would proabably suggest to a client some behavioural approaches first, before taking a more drastic approach. As far as tail and ear docking go, I would never do them unless they were a necessary benefit to the animal's health. I don't know much about showing, but have always wondered why docking is allowed for these shows, I don't think you should alter the animals, it's not how the breed naturally occurs. Another tail docking I do not agree with is in milking cows, I heard it was recently outlawed in some states, possibly starting in California, can anyone provide more info on this?

 

[Tine]

I am a little on the fence as far as declawing goes myself. I agree that it's better for the cat to be declawed and have a home, then to be homeless. But, I would proabably suggest to a client some behavioural approaches first, before taking a more drastic approach. As far as tail and ear docking go, I would never do them unless they were a necessary benefit to the animal's health. I don't know much about showing, but have always wondered why docking is allowed for these shows, I don't think you should alter the animals, it's not how the breed naturally occurs. Another tail docking I do not agree with is in milking cows, I heard it was recently outlawed in some states, possibly starting in California, can anyone provide more info on this?

I agree with suggesting behavioral approaches first, but I would make sure the client knows that in the end if it doesn't work out, they can come to me for the declawing. If they feel like they've failed in training their cat, I don't want them to feel ashamed or awkward about telling me. If they feel too much like they failed, they might give their cat up thinking someone else will be successful in training it, and in that case I'd rather them go through with the declaw. I've had enough cats to know that sometimes (not always) destruction is just inevitable, no matter how hard you try to tell them 😉.
But I also have seen clients that get a new cat and don't even give it a chance; they think declawing is just something you are supposed to do, like spaying or neutering. Those are the clients that I hope I'd be able to make understand that it's possible to live with a cat with claws. And, as I've kind of mentioned before, if I know the cat has any chance of ever going outside, I will try to be much more convincing about not declawing. I've known very few people that make the mistake of declawing outdoor cats though.

 

[rugbychick16]

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[rugbychick16]

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[rugbychick16]

I mostly agree with these statements, I hate declawing!

But you'd be suprised at the number of students/clinicians at vet schools who have absolutely no problem with it and don't really think its an ethical issue at all. Believe me, I learned this in my ethics class this year.

What if you're hired right out of vet school, and your new boss "expects" you to do declaws? Thats what worries me sometimes.

 

[No Imagination]

These statements (almost all of them) are nice, and its great to have a debate about ethics, but we cannot do it until/unless we can all agree on some ethical rules/theories.

For instance, is causing pain to an animal unnecessarily (no benefit to the animal) wrong?

I doubt many of us would agree with that statement - otherwise we would all be vegans.

Ok, so is causing harm/pain to an animal for human benefit alone wrong?

Hmm, human benefit- Something is ascetically pleasing to me (tail docking/ear cropping), benefits me... so under that premise - Its alright?

If all we want to do here is state our personal opinion on the mater, then thats fine - and there are 5-6 other treads that say the same things.

What I would like to see is WHY people think that Tail Docking and Ear Cropping is wrong, and if it really holds up to some moral/ethical theory, otherwise this is not an ethical debate or question, but rather a "This is how I feel" thread.

Gratz, you have an opinion.

 

[Tine]

These statements (almost all of them) are nice, and its great to have a debate about ethics, but we cannot do it until/unless we can all agree on some ethical rules/theories.

For instance, is causing pain to an animal unnecessarily (no benefit to the animal) wrong?

I doubt many of us would agree with that statement - otherwise we would all be vegans.

Ok, so is causing harm/pain to an animal for human benefit alone wrong?

Hmm, human benefit- Something is ascetically pleasing to me (tail docking/ear cropping), benefits me... so under that premise - Its alright?

If all we want to do here is state our personal opinion on the mater, then thats fine - and there are 5-6 other treads that say the same things.

What I would like to see is WHY people think that Tail Docking and Ear Cropping is wrong, and if it really holds up to some moral/ethical theory, otherwise this is not an ethical debate or question, but rather a "This is how I feel" thread.

Gratz, you have an opinion.

When you say "almost all of them" what do you mean? It sounds like you mean some of these statements aren't nice? Just clarifying 🙂. I don't really know a lot about the definition of ethics or moral/ethical theories, but I feel like it often boils down to opinion anyway. Each person is going to believe something different about whether something is ethical. Each one of us is going to have our own set of principles and guidelines that defines our morals and ethics. I may be wrong about what ethics means though. Maybe you could explain it better to me and anyone else who doesn't quite have a grasp on it?
I don't think I could flat out be against or for tail docking/ear cropping/dewclaw removal/declawing. I suppose the best way to define my own set of principles is if the animal has a nice home and the procedure is not going to negatively affect its life, then I am not going to refuse to do the procedure. I may try to explain to a client why a certain procedure isn't necessary, but my main goal is to keep the animal healthy and happy, not to impose my morals on the clients.

 

[Tine]

Ok I thought about it some more and I think I know where you were going with this.... you were saying that the question of whether tail docking/ear cropping is right or not is more of a moral issue that is based on how we feel personally, so you were trying to change the question to more of a question of ethics?

 

[karmapple]

I have to say that declawing does bother me, but that may be because of my past experiences with it. Where I used to work, declaws were done with old, dull nail clippers (guillotine style), the cats were given no pre-meds (just the iso box), and given no pain meds afterwards unless the owners wanted to pay extra (which they often didn't). Then, if they did pay extra, the cats only got Metacam. We also did it on older cats who seemed to have a very hard time adjusting. All the cats were visibly agitiated and painful afterwards. This left a bad taste in my mouth about declawing in general.

However, I have heard that with laser declaws (or even a sharp blade!) and adequate pain management, done on young kittens who won't remember having claws anyway, it isn't so bad.

I do think the important thing is client education. The percentage of clients who understand that a declaw is an actual amputation of the toes, not just an extensive nail trim, is small in my experience. The percentage of clients who understand that yes, there are other options and yes, you can train a cat not to scratch your furniture is also very small. I think it's important clients made informed decisions, know any possible side effects, and know that under no circumstances could this cat ever allowed to be an outside cat. Then, perhaps, I would perfrom a declaw. And give that cat so many pain meds it sleeps for four days! j/k

 

[Shanomong]

Just going to throw it out there that I'm among those who don't have a problem with declawing.

I'm not a fan of traditional declawing because I think it is a tough recovery, but I have no qualms with laser and would make an effort to have it available in the office I work in so that, when a client has made the decision to declaw, I can provide the best method out there. From what I've read, I can't find concrete evidence that, when done properly, declawing causes issues for cats. There will always be a percentage of patients who react poorly to any surgical proceedure, but the majority of cats do just as well without claws as they did with. Yes it's an amputation, but from what I've read cats grasp and walk with the pads of their feet (we're not talking prey here... I realize a cat can't catch a bird without claws, but outdoor cats are a completely different issue). Info I've found to the contrary has been non-scientific and in many cases overly emotional. I did read one research article against declawing, but while the side effects were terrible, they happened in such a small percentage of cases that I don't see it as a reasonable deterrent.

As for ear and tail docking, I personally find it unattractive and think it looks like mutilation, and may be inclined to ask a client if they've ever considered the "au natural" look, but if they're certain they want it then I have no strong objections to it. And I have absolutely no issues with dewclaw removal, especially since it can be done easily while the animal is being spayed/neutered.

Just my 2 cents (or 3 or 4... 😛). I'm definitely open to reading up on scientific research that has proved otherwise if you have any you'd like to share. I'm a firm believer that the most informed decision is always the best decision 🙂, and understand that other people strongly disagree with me on this. But unless I see evidence that the practice is harmful to the animal, I can't object, particularly in the cases of dewclaw and declawing, when the outcome could be benificial to the pet (be it by preventing future injury, or preventing future homelessness).

 

[No Imagination]

Ok I thought about it some more and I think I know where you were going with this.... you were saying that the question of whether tail docking/ear cropping is right or not is more of a moral issue that is based on how we feel personally, so you were trying to change the question to more of a question of ethics?

I wasn't really trying to change the question, as the thread title was "A question of Ethics".

If I made a blanket statement, regardless if it reflected my opinion, then I believe it should be backed up with an explanation. The interesting part (for me anyway) of any opinion is based on the rationale used to determine it. Someones opinion, not based on any theory, truth, or facts, are useless in furthering a discussion or understanding.

Now, as the OP also said, if you just wanted to conduct a 'poll' to see were a population stood, then I guess just spouting opinion could be worthwhile. But just about everyone stated their opinion, partially rationalized it, but did not explain WHY.

Each one of us is going to have our own set of principles and guidelines that defines our morals and ethics.

If you think about it, our morales and ethics, unless you are following what you were taught blindly, should be based on an understanding of something, whether it be the promotion of human happiness, an abstract or intrinsic need or good, or whatever.

Thats all I'm saying - but it doesn't matter - usually these ethical arguments don't work out well, as people tend to follow emotion instead of rationale.

When I get back (tom. i'll post my thoughts on the matter)

 

[sofficat]

Very interesting thread. So this is what I have to offer....

Tail dock and ear crop: unnatural for the pet. Pointless (in most situations) to do. Only done for the owner. Therefore you are putting an animal through pain for the owners. 👎

Declaw: unnatural for the pet. Many see it as a procedure that you just do when you get a cat, so I am hoping to educate otherwise. Many also see training and nail cutting impossible to do with their own cat... again education is key. So... overall a big 👎

Now my question is- as a vet working at a multi vet practice, can I 'refer' my declaws to another vet? Is that a something that is not normally done? The only reason I say this is (well- 2 reasons)... if I don't do them a lot and someone wants it done wouldn't it be better to give it to a vet that knows how to do them proficiently? and I just don't like the surgery and recovery the patient has to endure.

 

[QuarterHorseGal]

I think the reason that there is a debate within the vet med community on declaws is because people interpret the veterinarian's oath differently. In the case of declaws the dilemma arises because the protection of animal health and relief of animal suffering comes into opposition with the "benefit of society". Declawing may lead to increased arthritis (proven to do so in cats over 40 kg), the inability to stretch normally, maintain balance, chronic pain, etc. When it comes down to it though, declaws are a medically unnecessary amputation done for the convenience of humans. Declawing is too often used as the convenient way for people to avoid proper training. It is not our prerogative to remove a cat's claws, just as we don't remove other animals' "unfavorable" features. As long as this is an option provided by veterinarians, clients (who could otherwise better train their animal or just own a different species) will continue to request the procedure at the expense of the animal.

Based on polls I've seen in literature, veterinarians are not as split on ear crops and tail docking as they are on declaws. This is probably because with tail docks and ear crops, there is absolutely no benefit to the animal. In addition, it significantly hinders the dog's ability to communicate with other dogs. The ears and tail are very important in dog-dog communication, and losing them lessens dogs' capabilities to correspond with one another. This can lead to increased fear, anxiety, and fighting.

With both of these issues, client education is the key. Most everyone wants to do what is best for their animal, but they are ignorant to the downsides of these procedures. A big part of our job is to share our knowledge and educate the public.

 

[sumstorm]

I disagree with the idea that all tail docks are cosmetic. Coming from a working farm that utilized ACD's and Aus sheps before they were common and/or popular in the states, I have seen dogs with tails stomped, pinned, slammed, and otherwise injured. Unfortunatly, if you have an angry heifer stomp a dogs tail, the dogs reaction is to get away (and possibly try driving the animal away in an unsafe manner resulting in a nasty or fatal kick injury.) In trying to get away, they can do damage to the discs in the spine. These are injuries that can greatly reduce the quality of a dogs life, and in the working world, end its life.

I don't know about ear-cropping. I am pretty undecided; I know in some circles more and more breeders are doing this because vets won't. I am not sure which is worse.

Dewclaws, for some dogs, are big issues as adults, catching on objects in the environment and resulting in painful injuries.

I have, in the past, completly objected to declawing of cats. Now, having watched the vet that I work with now do them, I find it far less offensive than the ones I observed as a youth (disarticulation rather than gullitine clippers.) After having a cat for 7 years that was well trained not to destroy furniture, has ample options for appropriate clawing, and is trained in other ways (doesn't get on the counters, comes when called, etc) via R+, our most recent move changed her behavior, and she has started clawing expensive furniture, carpets and walls. Double stick tape, adversive sprays, corrections, replacement with scratchable materials, etc are not working to change the behavior. Maybe if we were talking about one piece of furniture, it wouldnt' be a problem...however, we are talking about 4 rooms of carpet (at several grand a piece), 4 pieces of furniture, and walls in 3 rooms. By my current calculations, we are talking about enough damage to pay for vet school for a year. Having said all of that, I can not bring myself to declaw her at her current age. If she was a kitten and I knew this was going to happen, I admit I would have done it. We are now on an intensive schedule of confinement, nail trimming, and cap glueing. Oh, she will pull the caps off of her nails. For the first time, I understand what drives people to declaw (and I have been working on resolving these issues for 19 months.)

 

[dyachei]

I think the reason that there is a debate within the vet med community on declaws is because people interpret the veterinarian's oath differently. In the case of declaws the dilemma arises because the protection of animal health and relief of animal suffering comes into opposition with the "benefit of society". Declawing may lead to increased arthritis (proven to do so in cats over 40 kg), the inability to stretch normally, maintain balance, chronic pain, etc. When it comes down to it though, declaws are a medically unnecessary amputation done for the convenience of humans. Declawing is too often used as the convenient way for people to avoid proper training. It is not our prerogative to remove a cat's claws, just as we don't remove other animals' "unfavorable" features. As long as this is an option provided by veterinarians, clients (who could otherwise better train their animal or just own a different species) will continue to request the procedure at the expense of the animal.

recent studies with laser declaws have shown no significant difference in the areas you mentioned (like arthritis) when compared to cats that have not been declawed. I can't remember how far out the studies go, but the gist was that within 6 months, cats that have undergone a proper laser declaw are just like any other cat and are not at risk for chronic pain, arthritis, decreased stretch, etc.

 

[bunnity]

increased arthritis (proven to do so in cats over 40 kg)

Did you mean 4 kg? 🙂

 

[robeezy08]

As for declawing, I'm against it. I think cats use/need their claws far more than people presume. If you ever watch a cat run and turn a corner or stretch horizontally or vertically, they use their claws which utilizes muscles along their backs. Arthritis is a big consequence I've heard.
Besides, I just can't seem to justify furniture as a reason to declaw. Inform the client of the alternatives and def consider behavior mod first.
I was offered a job as a tech in a cat only clinic and declined the position when I was told I must assist/monitor anesthesia in declaw sx.

but the gist was that within 6 months, cats that have undergone a proper laser declaw are just like any other cat and are not at risk for chronic pain, arthritis, decreased stretch, etc.

I'd be interested to read this report. Is it even possible to predict chronic pain/arthritis in a 6mn old cat?

 

[robeezy08]

Did you mean 4 kg? 🙂

lol, probably. I just got off work and today we did a procedure on a 40kg pig! He was huge

 

[QuarterHorseGal]

No, i meant 40 kg, referring to the big kitties. In privately owned large cats it's unfortunately common for people to have them declawed and it results in arthritis by 5-8 years of age, according to our exotics residents here at UF.

 

[Tine]

No, i meant 40 kg, referring to the big kitties. In privately owned large cats it's unfortunately common for people to have them declawed and it results in arthritis by 5-8 years of age, according to our exotics residents here at UF.

lol isnt that like 80lbs? is that a hyperbole? it's hard to tell tone in these online forums 🙂 oohhhh did you mean like tigers? i get slower the longer i study!

 

[QuarterHorseGal]

lol, no hyperbole. What I meant was cheetahs, leopards, cougars, tigers, lions, etc.

 

[katryn]

I've taken the position that client education is truly the key. Ear crops, tail docks, and dewclaw removal all stemmed from a legitimate need to prevent injury to a working dog....that being said, a house dog will sustain little to no injuries of the sort a working dog would. So, if someone comes to me and says they want these procedures done, quiz them on whether they're marking the pups as working dogs or house dogs. I also make sure they understand the age limits of the procedure so that tail docking and dewclaw removal are done before the nervous system has a chance to develop extensively. If a client truly is marketing a litter of puppies as working dogs, I see nothing wrong with these procedures.

For declawing, I'm something of a fence straddler. I don't like declawing cats simply because a client is afraid that their cat will claw their new $3000 couch when the cat is 8 yrs old and has shown no inclination to claw furniture. But I will more than happily declaw a young kitten who is overly aggressive with scratching in a household with small children or elderly adults. Again, in certain circumstances, legit reason outweighs causing pain.

Also, I'm curious if anyone could link somewhere to learn more about different declaw methods. All the vets I've worked for used guillotine cutters (sharpened and sterilized of course) and appropriate post op pain control, and I can't think of any of our patients who had problems post-op or later in life, so I'm wondering why others think it's such a problem.

 

[katryn]

Now my question is- as a vet working at a multi vet practice, can I 'refer' my declaws to another vet? Is that a something that is not normally done? The only reason I say this is (well- 2 reasons)... if I don't do them a lot and someone wants it done wouldn't it be better to give it to a vet that knows how to do them proficiently? and I just don't like the surgery and recovery the patient has to endure.

I'm currently working for a five dr. practice and they do this quite often. Only two of the vets will do tail docks/dewclaws. And the newest dr. takes a lot of our less common procedures simply because she was taught them more recently than the rest, and is more comfortable with them.

 

[aspiringDVM]

Can anyone provide links to good case studies or reports? I'm particularly interested in the laser vs. traditional declaw comparison.

I agree that client education is certainly the firstline approach. It's amazing how many people still think that when you get a cat you automatically have it declawed (I actually had this conversation with a close friend yesterday ). Conversely, if the owners have already tried a variety of behavioral approaches and the cat still isn't responding, I don't think declawing is unreasonable. For instance, another friend has a eight month old kitten with a big attitude, who persistently shreds furniture even with frequent nail trimming, scat mats, double sided tape, aluminum foil, a variety of cat toys, alternate scratching surfaces, water bottle, some sort of chemical or herbal deterrent, etc (reminds me a little bit of Sumstorm's cat).They've been working on this for roughly six months, and the kitty's going to live with my friend's grandmother after she graduates. In this case, I think that declawing is a viable alternative, especially as it will allow the kitty to remain in a good home.
I've seen complications due to rear dewclaws (getting caught in things, often overgrown in working dogs), so I don't really have a problem with their removal provided the puppies are the appropriate age or already anesthetized for spay/ neuter.
However, I consider tail docks and ear crops almost always utterly unnecessary, not to mention quite strange looking. To my mind there's no reason the vast majority of Great Danes could not live perfectly happy, healthy lives with their ears intact and that Yorkies shouldn't have tails .

 

[CatVet2Be]

Again, in certain circumstances, legit reason outweighs causing pain.

Over the years I've relaxed my position on declaws significantly. I believed it was wrong 100% of the time but I have met clients who had legitimate reasons like what you mentioned: cat attacking family members, or having immuno-compromised family members for whom scratches could cause severe problems. Unfortunately they represent a small percentge of declaws. Most of the ones I've seen result from cat vs. couch/rug etc... I get that people don't want their cat destroying things but part of responsible ownership means behavioral training and understanding there are some down sides to choosing to bring a pet into the family. You wouldn't remove a dogs teeth for chewing on your shoes, nor should you remove a cats digits for attacking the couch. Give the animal proper things to use and most of the time with diligent training you can modify the behavior.

And as people have mentioned client education is absolutely key. I have the inappropriate scratching talk with every single client that comes in with a new kitten and it has averted some declaws.

Now for No Imagination the reason I have this position is not just due to potential pain the animal may suffer immediately or long after the surgery. I've seen a great number of these "indoor only" cats whose owners initially really intended to keep indoors, come in with wounds (sometimes fatal ones) because they either
a) snuck out
b) really enjoyed being in the backyard and somehow became outdoor cats
c) were rehomed for any number of reasons to someone who then made them outdoor cats.
d) began urinating in the house so the owners hd to either make them an indoor/outdoor cat or euthanize them

I believe it's selfish on our part to modify an animal so that it fits into our aesthetic desires or to modify one because we choose to have expensive furniture that's incompatible with said animal. However unlike tail docking and ear cropping, declawing can mean the difference between survival or becoming lunch. If my indoor only cats snuck out I would want them to have every weapon at their disposal to get away from a coyote a lot more than I'd want an intact couch.

Also as far as not being hired for refusing to perform a certain procedure, I'm not too concerned over that. Many doctors have certain procedures they aren't comfortable with or choose not to do but bring many other strengths to a practice. An employer will look at what you can offer overall.

 

[robeezy08]

.... But I will more than happily declaw a young kitten who is overly aggressive with scratching in a household with small children or elderly adults. Again, in certain circumstances, legit reason outweighs causing pain....

It could also be very possible that declawing an already aggressive kitten can lead to behavior problems as it gets older - like they may resort to biting now that they've lost a defense mechanism. I've seen very aggressive, biting cats who were declawed...now was it the declaw that made them aggressive or vice versa..hard to tell esp when owners opt to declaw kittens, as a precaution.

 

[twelvetigers]

Tail docks in breeds where short tails are standard don't bother me, even if the dog isn't working. If it's a purebred dog and you want it to look how it should, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I like my pem's fuzzy little butt.

Here's something to consider: would YOU rather do the dock, as a vet, than have a breeder do it? I know that there are plenty of breeders out there that do just fine. However, I was shadowing somewhere, and a breeder came in and wanted to dock her cockers' tails at the clinic (using the clinic's tools). But she wanted to do it herself. The vet, who was busy castrating pigs, told the tech to go ahead and let the woman do it. Thing is, the tech had asked the breeder if she had ever done it before. Her response?

"No, but I've seen it done once before."

Unbelievable. How often do you think this happens? How often do breeders do this at home? Are their tools sterile? Do they get the lengths right the first time?

As for ear crops, I would avoid them myself. And I would never dock ears OR tail on a pit, just because I don't want anything to do with that. If it's a loving family pet, then it's fine with normal ears and a long, wagging tail. If someone wants them docked, I would just wonder why... if you know what I mean.

Where I used to work, declaws were done with old, dull nail clippers (guillotine style) ... We also did it on older cats who seemed to have a very hard time adjusting.

Same at the clinic where I work! We do pain medication (it's not an option, it's built into the price) but it's just a morphine injection. The animals recover overnight and have the bandages removed the next day. I think that laser surgery sounds much more appealing, and I have a friend and a sister with declawed cats. The friend's cat did not respond to training or Feliway and it was the only other option they felt they had, and my sister has five kids so she was probably prioritizing a bit. But, I know that both of these cats are loved and the procedure was done at a proper age. So I don't have a problem with it. (But would for older cats in general.)

 

[sumstorm]

Most of the ones I've seen result from cat vs. couch/rug etc... I get that people don't want their cat destroying things but part of responsible ownership means behavioral training and understanding there are some down sides to choosing to bring a pet into the family. You wouldn't remove a dogs teeth for chewing on your shoes, nor should you remove a cats digits for attacking the couch. Give the animal proper things to use and most of the time with diligent training you can modify the behavior.

If my indoor only cats snuck out I would want them to have every weapon at their disposal to get away from a coyote a lot more than I'd want an intact couch.

Well, an outdoor cat's claws aren't going to do much to help them on our road where cars seem to be the #1 cause of death!

So, what do you tell owners who have been and are trying to be responsible owners...those who have used long term behavioral training, provided many options and opportunities to appropriatly relieve furniture clawing, used nail trimming and caps, and aren't having any indication of positive results?

As noted above, I am on month 19. I don't plan on declawing due to age/size of cat. The clawing isn't a behavior that has been practiced over the cat's lifetime, but the result of a particularly stressful relocation. From where I sit now, I can see where carpet is damaged, where furniture is damaged, and where a wall is damaged. In the same room are 2 floor to ceiling cat towers, three hanging scratching posts (sisal, carpet, and cardboard), two floor scratchers (one is a sisal/carpet combo, the other is carpet) and we make every effort to cover up places prone to scratching. Our cat makes every effort to uncover the same areas. We even bought scratching posts that fit on the corner of furniture to retrain her...she learned to drag them away from the furniture. We have also tried confinement, which actualy triggered hyper-grooming and self-chewing behaviors. She LOVES double stick tape. She chews on and removes nail caps. While there aren't any plans to get rid of her, I can see my husbands frustration levels growing every week, and I am not very pleased with 6 digit damage. As noted above, she is actually a very trained cat who will walk on a leash, come when called, perform 'tricks,' and stays off of counters.

I have had cats before, and another cat lives with us. I have NEVER had to deal with such a tenacious clawing issue as this past year. It has made me much more empathetic towards owners with cats that are damaging their home. My husband has said that he will never own another cat...and I can't say that I blame him. I have also never had any dog be this tenacious of a chewer that I couldn't provide them suitable alternatives and fix it through training....but I know someone who has and used box muzzles for a while to get through many initial issues (anxiety driven destructive chewing.)

Again, not saying for, against, or anything else...but why is is ethically wrong to not want the cat clawing through my walls, which actually risks exposing her to things like electrical wiring, insulation, entrapment, etc?

If I am the client, what do you recommend to me? For many clients, 6 figure damage would be beyond reasonable tolerances.

 

[sumstorm]

The vet at our clinic doesn't do guillotene or laser. She surgically disarticulates the last joint. She is really fast at it, and says that cats seem to do far better with a clean disarticulation than with just cutting the joint bluntly. For her practice (area it is in, clientelle she serves) a laser is cost-prohibitive. For kittens, the procedure is an overnight, go home the next day around noon. Adults is a minimum of two overnights, and she is far less likely to perform adult declaws. She will not combine a spay with a declaw either. She performs dewclaw removals and tail docks (only for very young dogs) but will not crop ears.

most of the vets in our area won't do ears...and unfortunatly more and more people are doing them at home. This includes our clients. When asked why, they will say they called over 20 clinics (that is possible here) and no one would do it. This includes competitive conformation owners.

 

[robeezy08]

If I am the client, what do you recommend to me? For many clients, 6 figure damage would be beyond reasonable tolerances.

Sorry you've had such a rough time w/ this issue, sumstorm! 19 months, and I'd be pulling my hair out. Couple questions - How often do you trim her nails? Is it fairly easy for you and your husband to do it, say once every other week? And/or buying a battery operated drill/nail files and blunting the ends once a week.
Also, I remember hearing from a behaviorist that scratching posts are good but sometimes cats prefer posts that are heavy and weighted to the ground. I think one reason cats prefer scratching furniture is that it doesn't move, as well as for the texture. I guess some cats have really acute sensors near their claws and love to dig deep into solid objects, like heavy pieces of furniture, rather than one that moves or swings.
I guess I'd also suggest speaking w/ a behaviorist and see what they think?

 

[dyachei]

I'd be interested to read this report. Is it even possible to predict chronic pain/arthritis in a 6mn old cat?

The studies went for years and they noted that after about 6 months there was no difference. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[DollyyLlama]

I like my pem's fuzzy little butt.

I was under the impression (from when I had one) that pembrokes were one of the few breeds actually born w/o a tail, but from a quick google search it looks like although they were once selected for bob tails, now they're usually docked. Are some of them still born tailless or stubby-tailed?

The fuzzy butt is cute, but.. given that my dog never met a cow, I would not have minded the tail at all.

 

[vnair2]

I am admittedly not very informed on many of these issue, so tell me if I sound foolish. I don't get why someone would be fine with tail docks, but not ear crops, or vice versa (same for declawing). With the exception of work dogs, or medical necessity, it seems like these procedures all boil down to the same ethical issue.

With that said, Im not entirely sure where I stand.

 

[twelvetigers]

I don't like ear crops because they're much more involved than tail docks. Tail docking is just a clip and maybe a stitch, but they seem to heal fast without much trouble. Ear docks are much bloodier and can require special headgear, and they just seem more difficult to manage the after care for. It also takes practice to be able to determine how to cut the ear to where it will look right - it's so cosmetic.

Also, I like schnauzers with floppy ears. I suppose a doberman would look odd without a crop, but I'm not interested in being the one doing it!

 

[aspiringDVM]

I suppose a doberman would look odd without a crop, but I'm not interested in being the one doing it!

On the contrary, dobies with full ears are really cute!

 

[twelvetigers]

Oh, I agree. I can't think of a dog that I think looks better because of an ear crop. There's just too much involved for what you get out of it. It's like a dog getting a 'nose job' or something. Silly.

But, if you're showing a doberman, I suppose that you would have to get the crop done?

 

[CatVet2Be]

I don't get why someone would be fine with tail docks, but not ear crops, or vice versa (same for declawing).

Like twelvetigers said ear cropping is much more complicated, it's a much longer recovery period and I've seen some horrible painful infections as a result. Tail docking happens pretty quickly when the puppy is only a few days old and I haven't seen any complications yet. Docking is different than amputating the tail of an older dog, it's done without need for anesthesia and though they cry while it's happening the whole thing is over with pretty quickly and the pups go back to nursing right after.

sumstorm: you're doing a lot more to direct your cat's behavior than most people do. Too many people don't even bother with any of the things you've tried and resort to declawing before seeing if anything really works. In a case like yours I would try to give a few more tips but ultimately if they've given it a good try and things still are not changing then I would be ok with referring the cat to another colleague who's experienced with the procedure.

On a side note, Home Depot sells plastic hallway runners that if you flip upside down have plastic spikes. I've found that putting them under furniture they like to scratch deters them from wanting to walk across it. The down side is you don't want to accidentally walk on that barefoot - it hurts! I've also used packaging tape across an entire section of carpet (under doors). After taking a little of the stickiness off by using it on an old piece of cloth you can apply it to most furniture or carpet without damage. Apparently plastic is not that fun to scratch. Citrus scents (candles, sprays) can help some and if it's stress related have you tried Feliway and possibly medications (amitriptyline)?

 

[Trilt]

On the contrary, dobies with full ears are really cute!

As a child, the only dobermen I had seen until about age eight were ones with uncropped ears. (I lived mostly in a really small town... only two dobies there.) When I saw one on TV or something like that that had cropped ears, I remember asking my mother what was wrong with it.

I have a huge personal fondness of great danes without cropped ears. I think they're so much nicer looking.


As far as this issue, I'm actually the opposite of many... I have considerably more problems with cropping/docking (young) than with declawing (young.) I have a couple reasons behind this, but this is my primary way of evaluating situations: Look at how you are affecting an animal with this procedure, and balance that with the benefit you receive as that animal's owner.

While cat declaws have a huge positive benefit for an owner in regard to property/human damage, if done young and humanely they have a low negative effect on the cat.

What positive benefit does a ear cropping have? Or a tail docking? None, besides the joy of seeing a fluffy butt corgi. (Not that anyone here would say that those aren't utterly charming. ;P) However, they can have a negative effect on communication for the animal, have serious problems as far as infections, and just a plethora of "bad" that I just can't justify for cosmetics.

That said, I've never been one for cosmetics... I own a heinz 57 of a mutt, and my kitty, while adorable, is also just a stray. No breed standards to deal with here. If it came down to myself, as a veterinarian, doing a dock vs. a breeder doing a dock... I would do it. My personal ideals are not strong enough to justify the potential harm an animal could face in a "backyard" situation.

 

[koerwk49]

On the point of doing whats best for the animal I think we have to take into account more than just the physical procedure. Tails are an essential part of communication. I can't remember what show I saw this on so dont ask, but dogs wag there tails at different heights and speeds to display their emotions. Ears are too even though cropped ears can still be laid down. I haven't owned a cat so I haven't seen the damage done by claws but sure have felt their tiny little kitten claws through my jeans before. Declawing at least has a purpose whereas cropping and docking (in most cases) is purely aesthetic.

I also understand that breeders will do their own crude operations but I would choose to refer it to someone else. I know people that smoke and I dont care, its their choice, but its my choice not to smoke. Not to say I dont care that cropping and docking is being done but I know some people will just want them done and if a colleage of mine is ok with doing it I would rather have him/her doing it instead of some back alley breeder.

 

[koerwk49]

I can't remember what show I saw this on so dont ask, but dogs wag there tails at different heights and speeds to display their emotions.

Ok...
That little bit of information isn't that hard to understand but the show had more precise statistics that I don't remember. I saw it on a show where this orangutan was solving basic math problems on a touch-screen computer. Very interesting!