A rant for this morning

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sunlioness

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Credentialing paperwork can go do stuff to itself. Seriously. Why do I have to fill out multiple packets with the same info that's already on my CV?

I could also rant about contracts that require maintaining board certification because I think I'm really so over all that (along with some of the biggest names in medicine), but I imagine that's a tough sell.

Alright. I'm done.
 
Yeah. I'm changing jobs in order to move back East. Think I'll like the job better even though the salaries are lower in that part of the country while the cost of living is higher. But I'll have a salary and not be on RVU-production anymore, so I'm rather stoked about that (I think RVU-based salaries penalize outpatient clinicians). But I'm thoroughly not stoked that they can fire me if I don't remain board certified. Especially since it's really not fair. My new boss is filling that requirement automatically by having been initially certified before the rules changed. How does he stay worthy of being board certified and therefore not be fired when I don't? Does the year he certified automatically make him a better clinician?

Dumb.

I think it's reasonable to require that people become board certified. Not all that reasonable to require that they maintain it. Especially since it can't apply equally across physician-employees.
 
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NBPAS board certification is being accepted by some as sufficient to meet "board certification" requirements. Did you ask to see if they would accept it? Much more reasonable in terms of requirements and $$$.
 
Credentialing paperwork can go do stuff to itself. Seriously. Why do I have to fill out multiple packets with the same info that's already on my CV?

I could also rant about contracts that require maintaining board certification because I think I'm really so over all that (along with some of the biggest names in medicine), but I imagine that's a tough sell.

Alright. I'm done.

Congrats on the new job, SL! Yep, credentialing paperwork seems to be about the most tedious, time wasting stuff ever. I bet the executive types at the hospital don't mess with that. About board certification, good luck to anyone enforcing a clause like that with the current shortages in our field. I moonlight at a hospital that decided to terminate their contract with a psychiatrist group due to pay disputes. So far, it looks like hiring has been really difficult, and they're still doing locums to fill spots. We're not that easy to replace these days. Of course I'm expecting some old white dude (or wanna be old white dude) who likely paid very little for medical school and is, yes, grandfathered in for board certification to expect us to feel some shame or doubt about having the ability to ask for what we want, including pay and hey maybe not putting up with the BS that is MOC.
 
They should end the grandfathering of board certification. Makes no sense.

So look at ABPN leadership -- they're probably all in the grandfathered in stage, right? I'm sure Larry Faulkner is.
 
So timely! I just wasted 2 hours and 45 minutes at the end of the work day finishing the application paperwork for a hospital. They required a CV and also required that the same information and more be printed or typed (who owns a typewriter??!) onto their 15 page form. The worst parts of the form were the "Healthcare Affiliations" versus "Work History" sections; somebody determined that it was critical for me to hand-print address, 4 contact numbers, supervisor, contact person, job title...excess detail in both sections, even though I think that "Healthcare Affiliations" was really asking about the one hospital where I've ever had admitting privileges. Plus the part where they wanted me to list credit by credit every source of CME's in the past two years, specifically disallowing "see attached." And then requesting "case or procedure documentation for the prior two years." I don't even know what this means in psychiatry, but I am hoping they are impressed with the nice spreadsheets that tally my sessions by CPT codes. Also very important to know who my "program director" was for the BA degree I earned in 1996. And wasting the money on VeriDoc (WA state refuses to provide that information themselves about license holders) when I thought the NPI number was supposed to eliminate the need for state by state checks on our histories.

It's enough to make me reconsider going into unreliable private practice in the new location.
 
NBPAS board certification is being accepted by some as sufficient to meet "board certification" requirements. Did you ask to see if they would accept it? Much more reasonable in terms of requirements and $$$.
You have to pass the exam first before being certified by NBPAS is my understanding.... 🙁
 
So timely! I just wasted 2 hours and 45 minutes at the end of the work day finishing the application paperwork for a hospital. They required a CV and also required that the same information and more be printed or typed (who owns a typewriter??!) onto their 15 page form. The worst parts of the form were the "Healthcare Affiliations" versus "Work History" sections; somebody determined that it was critical for me to hand-print address, 4 contact numbers, supervisor, contact person, job title...excess detail in both sections, even though I think that "Healthcare Affiliations" was really asking about the one hospital where I've ever had admitting privileges. Plus the part where they wanted me to list credit by credit every source of CME's in the past two years, specifically disallowing "see attached." And then requesting "case or procedure documentation for the prior two years." I don't even know what this means in psychiatry, but I am hoping they are impressed with the nice spreadsheets that tally my sessions by CPT codes. Also very important to know who my "program director" was for the BA degree I earned in 1996. And wasting the money on VeriDoc (WA state refuses to provide that information themselves about license holders) when I thought the NPI number was supposed to eliminate the need for state by state checks on our histories.

It's enough to make me reconsider going into unreliable private practice in the new location.

I wouldn't work there. They can fill it out for you.... plenty of other jobs available.
 
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So look at ABPN leadership -- they're probably all in the grandfathered in stage, right? I'm sure Larry Faulkner is.

So it looks like Larry Faulkner is grandfathered in and yet does voluntary recertification. I guess that's nice.
 
So it looks like Larry Faulkner is grandfathered in and yet does voluntary recertification. I guess that's nice.

Don't get too wound up on that. I'm sure he doesn't do any studying and doesn't need to 'study' for any further exams while the foundation is paying for his CME and other activities related to MOC.
 
Another rant for this morning:

I feel there is an uptick in past 5 years or so of therapists giving medication recommendations to patients. And not even good recommendations but weird things. Recently had a patient say their online therapist encouraged them to order online ketamine and they would supervise their use. Bad enough to deal with the deluge of 'my therapist thinks I have ADD/Autism.' Or my therapist thinks I should be on wellbutrin for my anxiety. I wish this was simply a masters level vs doctorate level issue, but no, I get this from all the alphabets.
 
Another rant for this morning:

I feel there is an uptick in past 5 years or so of therapists giving medication recommendations to patients. And not even good recommendations but weird things. Recently had a patient say their online therapist encouraged them to order online ketamine and they would supervise their use. Bad enough to deal with the deluge of 'my therapist thinks I have ADD/Autism.' Or my therapist thinks I should be on wellbutrin for my anxiety. I wish this was simply a masters level vs doctorate level issue, but no, I get this from all the alphabets.
I absolutely agree this has worsened in the social media era, and it's beyond frustrating every time.

I will say that I have seen it way less in people with PhDs. There is something to completing that degree that tends to make people more empirical and have a decent understanding for what they don't know. That said the field can certainly attract those with their own issues and personality pathology.
 
I absolutely agree this has worsened in the social media era, and it's beyond frustrating every time.

I will say that I have seen it way less in people with PhDs. There is something to completing that degree that tends to make people more empirical and have a decent understanding for what they don't know. That said the field can certainly attract those with their own issues and personality pathology.
I have been overwhelmingly unimpressed with the LPCs in my area. When people apply for a job, the personality structure of LPCs and work ethic seems a whole standard deviation from someone with a doctorate. The LPCs seem more likely to be overcompensating for their subconscious or even conscious feelings of inadequacy. It's too bad, because there is a lot of potential to still do a lot of good with less years of training. Although it also seems to attract certain risk factors.
 
When this thread was first posted, the thought that Donald Trump would become president (TWICE!) would make a non-PhD therapist recommend you take Haldol.
 
I will say that I have seen it way less in people with PhDs. There is something to completing that degree that tends to make people more empirical and have a decent understanding for what they don't know. That said the field can certainly attract those with their own issues and personality pathology.

I do get asked semi-frequently what medication I think would be best for a patient's mental health condition. I typically reply with "I have some high-level mechanistic knowledge in psychopharmacology, but your doctor or psychiatrist is the best person to provide you with individualized care" or something to that effect.
 
Another rant for this morning:

I feel there is an uptick in past 5 years or so of therapists giving medication recommendations to patients. And not even good recommendations but weird things. Recently had a patient say their online therapist encouraged them to order online ketamine and they would supervise their use. Bad enough to deal with the deluge of 'my therapist thinks I have ADD/Autism.' Or my therapist thinks I should be on wellbutrin for my anxiety. I wish this was simply a masters level vs doctorate level issue, but no, I get this from all the alphabets.
I’ve had more than a few patients suggest to me that they would like to discuss medication recommendations with their therapist first..
 
I’ve had more than a few patients suggest to me that they would like to discuss medication recommendations with their therapist first..
Long time ago a patient of mine increased their bupropion and had a seizure. But they adored their therapist so much, they completely gave the therapist the benefit of a doubt. It's delicate in terms of social etiquette. But I wish it was less taboo to report things like this to board. I mean, technically we can. But it feels like an unspoken agreement that providers do not report each other. I understand the concepts of the pact. But I have approached therapists and delicately informed that we should leave pharmacotherapy discussions to well...someone who's actually trained. I know it goes in one ear and out the other. Really don't appreciate therapists telling their patients to "advocate" for benzos and stims because the patient's subjective report is that it works so well for them. If they want to advise, then get a degree in it or stfu.
 
I’ve had more than a few patients suggest to me that they would like to discuss medication recommendations with their therapist first..
Or an obnoxious idea I have is. If the therapist wants to advise about meds. How about we start advising about therapy? We can tell them to make an exposure hierarchy and do DBT cards with their client ha! Then maybe all the med talk would stop?

therapist: did you give the benzos the client asked for?
psychiatrist: how are those dbt even chain analyses and ERP exercises going

LOL.
 
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Long time ago a patient of mine increased their bupropion and had a seizure. But they adored their therapist so much, they completely gave the therapist the benefit of a doubt. It's delicate in terms of social etiquette. But I wish it was less taboo to report things like this to board. I mean, technically we can. But it feels like an unspoken agreement that providers do not report each other. I understand the concepts of the pact. But I have approached therapists and delicately informed that we should leave pharmacotherapy discussions to well...someone who's actually trained. I know it goes in one ear and out the other. Really don't appreciate therapists telling their patients to "advocate" for benzos and stims because the patient's subjective report is that it works so well for them. If they want to advise, then get a degree in it or stfu.
I tended to defer all decisions about medication to psychiatrists in the early part of my career. These days, most of my patients are getting medications from NPs and calling them “my psychiatrist”. What is interesting is that the few patients who I have who have a psychiatrist, the psychiatrist seeks my input and direction much more so than the NPs. Obviously they are not asking about medication dosage and specific medication choice, but definitely seeking help on parsing out other factors and information to guide their decision making. Meanwhile I end up being much more directive with my patients who are seeing NPs and getting inaccurate diagnoses and treatment plans that seem risky at best. Just told a fairly new patient the other day who has intense anxiety and exhibits some paranoia to say no to a stimulant. This is a complex patient and medication might be an important and beneficial part of the treatment, but they have a lot of somaticization and their paranoia is focused on medication and other medical issues and they report significant negative experiences with medications recently. I would rather not be that directive as it starts pulling me to practice past my scope, but in a vacuum…

I imagine the flip side of that is trying to be the psychiatrist for all of these patients that are seeing these undertrained and undereducated therapists. Fortunately for me I see these patients after they have had a few experiences of inadequate or even sham therapy. It is actually my main source of referrals. Now if I could just get a psychiatrist to practice locally.
 
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Or an obnoxious idea I have is. If the therapist wants to advise about meds. How about we start advising about therapy? We can tell them to make an exposure hierarchy and do DBT cards with their client ha! Then maybe all the med talk would stop?

therapist: did you give the benzos the client asked for?
psychiatrist: how are those dbt even chain analyses and ERP exercises going

LOL.
Ngl, I actually do this as a psychiatrist. Maybe not that obnoxiously specific, but I will say things like, "it sounds like that event really brought up some memories of past traumas. I would talk to your therapist about that next appointment and see what they think." I'll occasionally be more specific and tell them they should ask about coping skills or processing for specific cognitive distortions, but if it's anything really detailed I just do the therapy work with the patient myself.

I think this is also a bit of a false equivalency though as psychiatrists should be trained in the basic (legitimate) therapy modalities that most therapists are using whereas therapists are going to have almost no training if any at all about medications beyond "SSRIs are for depression and anxiety".
 
A few times I've been more blunt/direct with patients. I discuss the possible positives of the therapist recommendation then go direct to why it's not a positive direction and how/why therapists need to stay in their lane and to disregard recommendations from therapists.
 
Ngl, I actually do this as a psychiatrist. Maybe not that obnoxiously specific, but I will say things like, "it sounds like that event really brought up some memories of past traumas. I would talk to your therapist about that next appointment and see what they think." I'll occasionally be more specific and tell them they should ask about coping skills or processing for specific cognitive distortions, but if it's anything really detailed I just do the therapy work with the patient myself.

I think this is also a bit of a false equivalency though as psychiatrists should be trained in the basic (legitimate) therapy modalities that most therapists are using whereas therapists are going to have almost no training if any at all about medications beyond "SSRIs are for depression and anxiety".
It indeed is not a perfect equivalency! But it's so interesting how some therapists (not all, but some) get offended when we inquire about evidence based modalities. Like someone has obvious severe OCD but there is no exposure work and they just talk in their sessions about how to ask their psychiatrists for benzos. We could....kick it up a notch and start making ridiculous requests like
"talk to your therapist about rebirthing therapy!"
"you need a new therapist, they are clearly not validating you as the innocent victim in all this!"

jk jk
I have a really terrible sense of humor....
 
I think this is also a bit of a false equivalency though as psychiatrists should be trained in the basic (legitimate) therapy modalities that most therapists are using whereas therapists are going to have almost no training if any at all about medications beyond "SSRIs are for depression and anxiety".

Yeah, I think both traditions could use better training and a little more intellectual humility. I got a decent amount of exposure to psychopharmacology in graduate school and fellowship, far much more than I ever did as a master's level clinician, but I still don't really feel comfortable making specific recommendations because I am acutely aware of what I still don't know (e.g., impact of specific formularies, drug-interactions, metabolic rates, effects on organs that are not the brain). I've seen many psychologists make confident, but wrong assertions about psychopharmacology. I try not to be one of those people.
 
I tended to defer all decisions about medication to psychiatrists in the early part of my career. These days, most of my patients are getting medications from NPs and calling them “my psychiatrist”. What is interesting is that the few patients who I have who have a psychiatrist, the psychiatrist seeks my input and direction much more so than the NPs. Obviously they are not asking about medication dosage and specific medication choice, but definitely seeking help on parsing out other factors and information to guide their decision making. Meanwhile I end up being much more directive with my patients who are seeing NPs and getting inaccurate diagnoses and treatment plans that seem risky at best. Just told a fairly new patient the other day who has intense anxiety and exhibits some paranoia to say no to a stimulant. This is a complex patient and medication might be an important and beneficial part of the treatment, but they have a lot of somaticization and their paranoia is focused on medication and other medical issues and they report significant negative experiences with medications recently. I would rather not be that directive as it starts pulling me to practice past my scope, but in a vacuum…

I imagine the flip side of that is trying to be the psychiatrist for all of these patients that are seeing these undertrained and undereducated therapists. Fortunately for me I see these patients after they have had a few experiences of inadequate or even sham therapy. It is actually my main source of referrals. Now of if I could just get a psychiatrist to practice locally.
Similarly, it's pretty rare for me to second-guess psychologist treatment plans, but I do try to have a way of assessing what's going on in someone's 2+ year weekly psychotherapy when they've seen no progress despite relatively run of the mill mood/anxiety symptoms. LOTS of master's-level "I just show up and dump about my week" not-really-supportive friend-chat therapy going on around here.
 
Similarly, it's pretty rare for me to second-guess psychologist treatment plans, but I do try to have a way of assessing what's going on in someone's 2+ year weekly psychotherapy when they've seen no progress despite relatively run of the mill mood/anxiety symptoms. LOTS of master's-level "I just show up and dump about my week" not-really-supportive friend-chat therapy going on around here.
The ole I've had several dozens of sessions, things have only gotten worse since I started, and I can't point to a single area where I have made demonstrable gains psychotherapy will definitely get me to at least speak to the therapist. After that it's pretty easy to determine what advice to provide regarding ongoing treatment.
 
Yeah, I think both traditions could use better training and a little more intellectual humility. I got a decent amount of exposure to psychopharmacology in graduate school and fellowship, far much more than I ever did as a master's level clinician, but I still don't really feel comfortable making specific recommendations because I am acutely aware of what I still don't know (e.g., impact of specific formularies, drug-interactions, metabolic rates, effects on organs that are not the brain). I've seen many psychologists make confident, but wrong assertions about psychopharmacology. I try not to be one of those people.

So I get you have good intentions but this really irks me in terms of "learning about" medications....like you didn't actually learn about them if you didn't learn about all the other considerations you mentioned (drug interaction, metabolism, side effects, impact on other organ systems, consideration for comorbid medical conditions, exam findings). How is someone going to be able to comment on QT intervals with a straight face when they've never read an EKG in their life? How would someone even know what dystonia looks and feels like when they've never felt it and can't walk me through a neuro exam? How would someone know what hyperreflexia in serotonin syndrome even is if they don't know how to do reflexes lol?

"Psychopharmacology" shouldn't even really be a thing, I get both psychiatrists and other disciplines say it all the time but this is another phrase that I feel really devalues the fact that we're dealing with medications like any other speciality does. We don't talk about "endopharmacology" or "cardiopharmacology" or "neuropharmacology" as if another discipline could just pick up and learn meds in those categories.
 
So I get you have good intentions but this really irks me in terms of "learning about" medications....like you didn't actually learn about them if you didn't learn about all the other considerations you mentioned (drug interaction, metabolism, side effects, impact on other organ systems, consideration for comorbid medical conditions, exam findings). How is someone going to be able to comment on QT intervals with a straight face when they've never read an EKG in their life? How would someone even know what dystonia looks and feels like when they've never felt it and can't walk me through a neuro exam? How would someone know what hyperreflexia in serotonin syndrome even is if they don't know how to do reflexes lol?

So, I got a decent amount of training in neuroscience that includes coverage of psychopharmacological interventions, but more from an esoteric, academic perspective rather than a clinical perspective (i.e., what you are counting are "learning"). I've had clinical supervision from psychiatrists and psychologist/psych NPs that included discussion of medication on fellowship that included more practical perspectives you are highlighting, but still feel like this level of knowledge (mechanisms + case discussion) is insufficient for clinical practice. I'm lost as to why that is personally upsetting to you.
 
A few times I've been more blunt/direct with patients. I discuss the possible positives of the therapist recommendation then go direct to why it's not a positive direction and how/why therapists need to stay in their lane and to disregard recommendations from therapists.
I'm 100% direct with patients on it, and recommend that their therapists pursue medical school if they are prescription inclined
 
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"Psychopharmacology" shouldn't even really be a thing, I get both psychiatrists and other disciplines say it all the time but this is another phrase that I feel really devalues the fact that we're dealing with medications like any other speciality does. We don't talk about "endopharmacology" or "cardiopharmacology" or "neuropharmacology" as if another discipline could just pick up and learn meds in those categories.

Yeah, I'm curious, why do we even do this?
 
Yeah, I'm curious, why do we even do this?
Splik or someone else with real knowledge on the history of psychiatry should chime in, but to the best of my understanding this came about as a way to distinguish primary psychoanalytic/dynamic psychiatrists from those who understood and utilized pharmacologic intervention. The way it has continued to permeate the language does feel like mental health/psychiatrist stigma as Calvin mentions.
 
I personally use the term because it's thinking about the relationship to the Rx coupled with ~deep thinking~. I guess if someone responds to medicine without psychodynamic thought, then it's just medicine. But if they respond to exploring the relationship to medicine, then it's psychopharmacology? At that point, psychopharmacology is just therapy applied to medicines, and even metformin could be considered psychopharmacology if you're using it as a transitional object.

I share the same gripe with MAT. It's not medication assisted treatment for SUD... It's medical treatment for SUD. Sometimes I feel like I'm splitting hairs though the language and approach does seem to matter.
 
Splik or someone else with real knowledge on the history of psychiatry should chime in, but to the best of my understanding this came about as a way to distinguish primary psychoanalytic/dynamic psychiatrists from those who understood and utilized pharmacologic intervention. The way it has continued to permeate the language does feel like mental health/psychiatrist stigma as Calvin mentions.
While not the origin of the term, I've more recently heard a psychiatrist refer to themselves as "I'm primarily a psychopharmacologist" when they didn't want to be involved in making basic MH skills recommendations as part of their role in a collaborative care model. Quite to my disappointment, actually.
 
While not the origin of the term, I've more recently heard a psychiatrist refer to themselves as "I'm primarily a psychopharmacologist" when they didn't want to be involved in making basic MH skills recommendations as part of their role in a collaborative care model. Quite to my disappointment, actually.

Yes I think it's something the fields done to itself without recognizing it's inadvertently another way to differentiate psychiatric medications as "different" and allow for ridiculous things like prescribing psychologists. Instead of just viewing medications as medications.

So, I got a decent amount of training in neuroscience that includes coverage of psychopharmacological interventions, but more from an esoteric, academic perspective rather than a clinical perspective (i.e., what you are counting are "learning"). I've had clinical supervision from psychiatrists and psychologist/psych NPs that included discussion of medication on fellowship that included more practical perspectives you are highlighting, but still feel like this level of knowledge (mechanisms + case discussion) is insufficient for clinical practice. I'm lost as to why that is personally upsetting to you.

Again, I do think you had good intentions with that post but the wording still gives away this idea that you could possibly give input if you really felt like it or as if it could somehow seem legitimate to give specific recommendations. I don't think this is a you thing, I think it's the way "psychopharmacology" is presented as some less complex thing than any other medication class. The underlying idea is given away in the phrasing:

"I got a decent amount of exposure to psychopharmacology in graduate school and fellowship, far much more than I ever did as a master's level clinician, but I still don't really feel comfortable making specific recommendations because I am acutely aware of what I still don't know"

I'm going to continue to emphasize this isn't a personal barb but I mean "don't really feel comfortable" is still too much leeway. It shouldn't even really be a thought.

I have friends who have PhDs in molecular biology, biology, biochemistry who know way more than I do about specific animal to human brain circuits, biochemistry of the medications I'm using day to day, doing research on this stuff who wouldn't even think about commenting on what medication someone should be started on or not.
 
I have friends who have PhDs in molecular biology, biology, biochemistry who know way more than I do about specific animal to human brain circuits, biochemistry of the medications I'm using day to day, doing research on this stuff who wouldn't even think about commenting on what medication someone should be started on or not.

I think we're miscommunicating. I share the same concerns as your PhD friends and believe I have said as much. My point in the bolded was while some therapists with far less training than myself feel qualified to weigh in on medications, I do not. I'm not saying that the training is sufficient. I'm actually saying the opposite: It's more than what other therapists typically get and is still insufficient thereby agreeing with the majority of posters in this thread.

As far as the term 'psychopharmacology' goes, this is the first I've heard of it being labeled as insulting. As far as I know, the term refers to a branch of pharmacology specific to psychiatric problems. Why that's differentiated from pharmacology and doesn't exactly map on to other subspecialities in medicine is something I do not know. But I would suggest you to maybe refrain from trying to divine hidden meaning from posts you otherwise say are good intentioned. Or perhaps ask a question rather than make an assumption.
 
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I think we're miscommunicating. I share the same concerns as your PhD friends and believe I have said as much. My point in the bolded was while some therapists with far less training than myself feel qualified to weigh in on medications, I do not. I'm not saying that the training is sufficient. I'm actually saying the opposite: It's more than what other therapists typically get and is still insufficient thereby agreeing with the majority of posters in this thread.

As far as the term 'psychopharmacology' goes, this is the first I've heard of it being labeled as insulting. As far as I know, the term refers to a branch of pharmacology specific to psychiatric problems. Why that's differentiated from pharmacology and doesn't exactly map on to other subspecialities in medicine is something I do not know. But I would suggest you to maybe refrain from trying to divine hidden meaning from posts you otherwise say are good intentioned. Or perhaps ask a question rather than make an assumption.
I don't think it's meant to be intentionally "insulting" but the point that we differentiate our prescribing and give it a special name while no other areas of medicine do makes it "special" or "unique" in a way that it really shouldn't be. Medicine is medicine, and medications for psychiatric problems aren't really different than medications other doctors prescribe other than it draws more attention in the public's eyes (or worse, legislators' eyes).

The term originated in the 1920's but wasn't used regularly until the 40's or 50's specifically when the development of neuroleptics for psychotic disorders was emerging. As @Merovinge suggested, it became more popularized in the 1970's and 80's around the time the DSM-III attempted to create a more categorical and medically based argument for mental illness as opposed to relying heavily on psychodynamic formulation. It's use as a term often (unintentionally or ignorantly) to further the stigma of psychiatry as a field that is outside of or sometimes less than mainstream medicine.
 
Yeah, I'm curious, why do we even do this?
The psychopharmacology era came about during the psychoanalytic heyday of the mid-20th century. As such, in locales like NYC and Boston where psychiatry was primarily psychoanalytic, "psychopharmacologist" was used to distinguish psychiatrists who specialized in drug treatment from those who were primarily therapy based. While American psychiatry was readily accepting of antipsychotics for schizophrenia, the use of minor tranquilizers and antidepressants was much more controversial. Most of the psychoanalysts were very much against drugs for neurotic disorders. I remember my former chair recalling being criticized as a resident by his supervisor for prescribing Elavil to a depressed patient being told "what your patient needed was an interpretation, not a medication." Split treatment, with patients having a psychoanalytic psychiatrist and a psychopharmacologist was common in certain locales.

For many biological psychiatrists of the era, psychopharmacology (which was a legitimate science and active area of basic and clinical research) provided a legitimacy to the field and its scientific underpinnings. There was real optimism that understanding the mechanisms of the drugs would provide insights into the pathogenesis of mental disorder (and in some cases, it did). Psychopharmacology also brought the randomized control trial to psychiatry. It was the psychopharmacologists who made CBT (or cognitive therapy as it was then) successful by trying to package it and test it like a drug.

Societies like the ACNP and CINP were very important in promoting the field of psychopharmacology. In the early days it wasn't so corrupted by pharma and even the drug companies were genuinely interested in knowing which compounds might have therapeutic use. The field as an academic discipline was very multidisciplinary including psychiatrists, psychologists, biochemists etc.

There was also a significantly different body of knowledge associated with prescribing medications compared to dynamic psychiatry. As such, psychiatrists committed to learning the intricacies of drugs' putative mechanisms, interactions, cautions and contraindications, pharmacokinetics and dynamics, and toxicity. Psychiatrists were far more likely to know their drugs (it wasn't a large number and many were "me toos") inside out compared the average internist or most other medical specialists. That is probably still the case today. Perhaps with the lack of certainty of so much in psychiatry, the known facts about the drugs we used provided some comfort to clinicians and served as foil for those who thought of psychiatrists as only wooly minded navel gazers whose practice was no more scientific than astrology or tea leaf reading.

Personally, I think the terms psychopharmacology/psychopharmacologist are infinitely preferable to terms like "medication management" and "prescriber." I suspect the reason it can sometimes feel a bit cringe for clinical psychiatrists to call themselves psychopharmacoogists is because it was in part a form of overcompensation.
 
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Personally, I think the terms psychopharmacology/psychopharmacologist are infinitely preferable to terms like "medication management" and "prescriber." I suspect the reason it can sometimes feel a bit cringe for clinical psychiatrists to call themselves psychopharmacoogists is because it was in part a form of overcompensation.
I don't really like any of them and the only real difference (at least where I'm at) is that "psychopharm___" is specific to our field while I frequently see "medication management" and "prescriber" applied to many fields as ways to include mid-levels in categories with physicians. So all bad terms for very different reasons, at least here.
 
As far as the term 'psychopharmacology' goes, this is the first I've heard of it being labeled as insulting.

I just think it sounds dumb. All psychiatrists are trained in both psychopharmacology and psychotherapy.

The implication of a psychiatrist specifically calling themselves a 'psychopharmacologist' is that they have no interest in (or perhaps aptitude for) psychotherapy. It's like advertising that you are only using half your training. The easier half.
 
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It's easier because we have been trained. The train wrecks I undo on the regular, from ARNPs and FM/IM indicates it isn't easy.
One of my best desk staff, was pre-PA. And she asked to do her psychiatry elective at my office. Frankly, I felt she should have just applied to med school. She was awesome. But as I taught her in the elective, I told her:
don't you dare start xanax, remember the calls we got here of people asking for it!

That and adderall IR.

Just, stick with what you actually know and have a good referral list of psychiatric providers. Please please please, let them make those calls.
 
It's easier because we have been trained. The train wrecks I undo on the regular, from ARNPs and FM/IM indicates it isn't easy.

Not to derail the thread but psychopharm is reasonably algorithmic. Yes it will not be well done by someone who is poorly trained. It's still more straightforward than psychotherapy.

Psychotherapy uses the therapist's behavior and reactions as the intervention tool. This requires a constant attention to the patient's affect and responses as well as awareness of and control over one's own behaviors and responses to make sure they are serving a therapeutic end. It's just much more complex and individualized.

It may be less obvious to others when psychotherapy is 'done wrong' vs psychopharm. That the issue is less detectable doesn't mean it isn't there.
 
It may be less obvious to others when psychotherapy is 'done wrong' vs psychopharm. That the issue is less detectable doesn't mean it isn't there.
so interesting. those who struggle with delivery of psychotherapy...there seems to be a strong correlation with the provider's inner unresolved struggles. I've learned to recruit more for character than anything else. Lots of hard skills are teachable. But nothing much anyone else can do about someone's unwillingness or attitude. And how can someone deliver good therapy if they are not applying the skills themselves? It's like going to a morbidly obese person as a personal trainer.
 
Not to derail the thread but psychopharm is reasonably algorithmic. Yes it will not be well done by someone who is poorly trained. It's still more straightforward than psychotherapy.

Psychotherapy uses the therapist's behavior and reactions as the intervention tool. This requires a constant attention to the patient's affect and responses as well as awareness of and control over one's own behaviors and responses to make sure they are serving a therapeutic end. It's just much more complex and individualized.

It may be less obvious to others when psychotherapy is 'done wrong' vs psychopharm. That the issue is less detectable doesn't mean it isn't there.
I definitely agree about the complexity of good psychotherapy, however I would argue those skills are also critical in psychopharmacology. If someone is doing 10 minute med checks they are practicing a different form of psychiatry than me. I hear about everything happening in someone's life and then discuss how medication might help with that. I navigate placebo and nocebo effects, manage expectations with medications, and tailor my discussion of mechanism of action, side effects, etc based on the verbal and nonverbal communication my patients give me when we discuss medications. Particularly with more complicated patients (which is basically all that I see), it is very complex and individualized.
 
I definitely agree about the complexity of good psychotherapy, however I would argue those skills are also critical in psychopharmacology. If someone is doing 10 minute med checks they are practicing a different form of psychiatry than me. I hear about everything happening in someone's life and then discuss how medication might help with that. I navigate placebo and nocebo effects, manage expectations with medications, and tailor my discussion of mechanism of action, side effects, etc based on the verbal and nonverbal communication my patients give me when we discuss medications. Particularly with more complicated patients (which is basically all that I see), it is very complex and individualized.
Agreed. The nocebo effect is very real. People can convince themselves that medications have caused all sort of things. And I have seen providers get reported to boards or claims attempt to be filed in litigation just for an SSRI prescription. Sure, the lawsuit may go nowhere, but it takes a toll emotionally, time-wise, and expense wise on the provider. If providers do not mitigate the nocebo effect, there's also patient drop out of care and potentially poor patient outcome as well as potential job insecurity to the provider.
 
I completely agree that having been board certified should be considered almost on par with currently being board certified. The initial examination is the "toughest" part intellectually of the process. Sitting through mindless CMEs does not indicate anything about a psychiatrist's knowledge. I do think the initial exam should be a little more difficult though, and the fail rate should be higher, especially with the proliferation of poor quality residencies popping up. Quite a number of questionable psychiatrists are board certified which is a shame.


Separate topic, but I wish baby boomers would not tie their identity so much to work, and would retire in larger numbers. With all the new medical schools and residencies pumping out psychiatrists, and the ever higher number of midlevels, psychiatrists are already becoming less needed which means the quality of our job options are/will go down. I hope the younger generations want more out of life than a career and will retire by 65 at latest (God, I hope I am able to.) When I see these boomer psychiatrists working well into their 70's, it is quite depressing.
 
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I completely agree that having been board certified should be considered almost on par with currently being board certified. The initial examination is the "toughest" part intellectually of the process. Sitting through mindless CMEs does not indicate anything about a psychiatrist's knowledge. I do think the initial exam should be a little more difficult though, and the fail rate should be higher, especially with the proliferation of poor quality residencies popping up. Quite a number of questionable psychiatrists are board certified which is a shame.


Separate topic, but I wish baby boomers would not tie their identity so much to work, and would retire in larger numbers. With all the new medical schools and residencies pumping out psychiatrists, and the ever higher number of midlevels, psychiatrists are already becoming less needed which means the quality of our job options are/will go down. I hope the younger generations want more out of life than a career and will retire by 65 at latest. When I see these boomer psychiatrists working well into their 70's, it is quite depressing.
My SO is a surgeon and someone she knows is trying to make it to 82... He's a good doctor, but I would not want him operating on me and clearly work = life.

Also agree that I wish the board cert was tougher, other fields have lower pass rates and if we got closer to them (through fair but more challenging questions) it would be a net positive for psychiatry.
 
Psychiatry is definitely a field that you can practice into your 80's and I've seen a lot of good, quite elderly psychiatrists. Retirement is very, very challenging. I find that people dramatically underestimate how much of a challenge it is. I see so many psych hospitalizations very soon after retirement, generally with significant SI. There is a very high chance of "failing" at retirement and really taking a horrific mood hit that you might not recover from. Sure if you have some sort of massive extended family commitments, it might help. You could really help raise the grandkids, but people are having fewer kids in general, so that's less likely. I think the final Erikson's stage is, by far, the hardest to master. It can be a heck of a lot easier to just grind along in the second to last right up until you literally die. All that said, biology does tend to catch up with people and we will, albeit delayed, see massive retirements that will fortunately be able to be filled by all these new residency graduates and NP/PAs.
 
Psychiatry is definitely a field that you can practice into your 80's and I've seen a lot of good, quite elderly psychiatrists. Retirement is very, very challenging. I find that people dramatically underestimate how much of a challenge it is. I see so many psych hospitalizations very soon after retirement, generally with significant SI. There is a very high chance of "failing" at retirement and really taking a horrific mood hit that you might not recover from. Sure if you have some sort of massive extended family commitments, it might help. You could really help raise the grandkids, but people are having fewer kids in general, so that's less likely. I think the final Erikson's stage is, by far, the hardest to master. It can be a heck of a lot easier to just grind along in the second to last right up until you literally die. All that said, biology does tend to catch up with people and we will, albeit delayed, see massive retirements that will fortunately be able to be filled by all these new residency graduates and NP/PAs.
they could be a massively successful youtuber? that demographic is nowhere near as saturated as the younger gens. It's wide open territory!
 
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