A shortfall of as many as 157,000 pharmacists is predicted by 2020

[CogNeuroGuy]

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Pharmacist Demand
The demand for trained pharmacy professionals has increased in past years due to the rapid growth of the healthcare and pharmaceutical industries, especially for the growing elderly population. The number of pharmacists in healthcare services is also growing, as pharmacists become more actively involved in drug therapy decision-making for patients of all ages. There is good potential for advancement and competitive salaries within a pharmacy career. Those pharmacists who pursue additional graduate study and/or residency experience have greater mobility within the profession including areas of research, administration and business.

Shortage of Pharmacists
A shortfall of as many as 157,000 pharmacists is predicted by 2020 according to the findings of a conference sponsored by the Pharmacy Manpower Project, Inc. Complete findings are detailed in the final report, "Professionally Determined Need for Pharmacy Services in 2020."

In December 2000, Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) released a report, "The Pharmacy Workforce: A Study of the Supply and Demand for Pharmacists." This report, mandated by Congress, was conducted to determine whether and to what extent a shortage of pharmacists exists. The report concludes that there is an increasing demand for pharmacists' service that is outpacing the current and possibly future pharmacist supply. This conclusion is based largely on the growth of vacant positions across the entire range of pharmacy practice sites. "While the overall supply of pharmacists has increased in the past decade, there has been an unprecedented demand for pharmacists and for pharmaceutical care services, which has not been met by the currently available supply," the report says. The report also states that factors causing the shortage are not likely to abate in the near future.

Job prospects are expected to be good over the 2008-18 period.Employers in many parts of the country have previously reported difficulty in attracting and retaining adequate numbers of pharmacists.However, the economic downturn has impacted the need for pharmacists and the number of available hours for pharmacists to work and this is decreasing the level of difficulty in attracting pharmacists. The other factor that may affect job prospects is healthcare reform and its impact on the services that pharmacists provide and the manner that healthcare is delivered.This factor could be variable in either direction.Once the economy stabilizes, we may see a return to the excellent job prospects that have been experienced in the last five years.

Growth in the Healthcare Industry: Pharmacy's Role
The practice of pharmacy is a vital part of a complete healthcare system. The number of people requiring healthcare services has steadily increased, and this trend will likely continue. Due to many of society's changing social and health issues, men and women in pharmacy will face new challenges, expanded responsibilities and an ever-increasing growth in opportunities. Some of these healthcare issues include:

• Increases in average life span and the increased incidence of chronic diseases;
• The increased complexity, number, and sophistication of medications and related products and devices;
• The increased emphasis on primary and preventive health services, home healthcare, and long-term care; and
• Concerns about improving patients' access to healthcare, controlling its cost and assuring its quality.

Because of the large role that medications and their proper use play throughout these issues, pharmacists will have an important role in the future of healthcare.

Working Environment
Information about working conditions is provided by the 2006-07 Occupational Outlook Handbook.

"Pharmacists work in clean, well-lighted, and well-ventilated areas. Many pharmacists spend most of their workday on their feet. When working with sterile or dangerous pharmaceutical products, pharmacists wear gloves and masks and work with other special protective equipment. Many community and hospital pharmacies are open for extended hours or around the clock, so pharmacists may work nights, weekends, and holidays. Consultant pharmacists may travel to nursing homes or other facilities to monitor patients’ drug therapy."

About 21 percent of pharmacists worked part-time in 2004. Most full-time salaried pharmacists worked approximately 40 hours a week. Some, including many self-employed pharmacists, worked more than 50 hours a week.

Salaries
The demand for pharmaceutical care services has resulted in a dramatic increase in salaries in all sectors of pharmacy. According to a 2011 survey by Drug Topics magazine, pharmacist yearly salaries range from $116,000 to $140,000.1

Source: http://www.aacp.org/resources/student/pharmacyforyou/Pages/joboutlook.aspx

 

[deleted480308]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/blog/pharmacy_school_is_the_new_law.php

who is right? I'm not surprised the pharmacy schools say going to pharmacy school is a great idea

 

[PharmtoCS]

I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[PharmtoCS]

.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

😛....hey, I am a scientist, I deal with data that is confirmed, not stuff floating out there in conspiracy theories. So, if you have any reliable and valid evidence to provide that can counteract these data, please provide it.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/blog/pharmacy_school_is_the_new_law.php

who is right? I'm not surprised the pharmacy schools say going to pharmacy school is a great idea

Source is not exactly the most valid. And if you use the excuse that AACP is not reliable, to put it in perspective, I would much rather consider the data provided by organizations like APA, AACP, AMA, etc. over tabloids or other pop/social journals.

 

[PharmtoCS]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ions-about-the-pharmacist-job-market.1042940/

The fact that there are 3x more pharmacists graduating each year than projected job openings by the BLS should alone be a huge concern.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Not really, not when considering other intervening variables, which is what the AACP states in their research. By this proxy, you would expect physician professions to also become more saturated, seeing how in the past 10 years alone, national averages of first-year medical students have risen drastically. Yet, this isn't the case, nor will it be. But again, this is also an opinion much like yours. So again, we are faced with hard facts, not just something an economist puts out. I am skeptical of economists simply because they have a lack of scientific inquiry, but I digress.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Not really, not when considering other intervening variables, which is what the AACP states in their research. By this proxy, you would expect physician professions to also become more saturated, seeing how in the past 10 years alone, national averages of first-year medical students have risen drastically. Yet, this isn't the case, nor will it be. But again, this is also an opinion much like yours. So again, we are faced with hard facts, not just something an economist puts out. I am skeptical of economists simply because they have a lack of scientific inquiry, but I digress.

The number of schools has increased, especially DO schools, but the number of medical residencies have been capped since 1997. The problem is that a growing number of students go through medical school and are unable to match.

Residencies create a bottleneck in the entry to the medical profession. Pharmacy and law no longer have a significant bottleneck.

 

[deleted480308]

Source is not exactly the most valid. And if you use the excuse that AACP is not reliable, to put it in perspective, I would much rather consider the data provided by organizations like APA, AACP, AMA, etc. over tabloids or other pop/social journals.

if you read the source paper to your link...they openly admit making up their projections

 

[Jibby321]

Cvs currently cutting new grad salaries by 11% in my area. Supply and demand?

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

This is true, but you also see from the AACP research that even with the current influx of pharmacy graduates per year, evidently there is still a drastic deficit in professionals to fill licensed pharmacist positions nation-wide. So, while there are concerns such as more students graduating and more schools opening up thus producing more students every year, this is response to the available data suggesting the drastic deficit.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Possibly, and the thing is, we all assume jobs are equal everywhere. If you live in a major metro. area, like any profession where people want to gather around and live, it will eventually become saturated. Think about it...live in Mansfield, Illinois vs. Chicago, Illinois? Nurses see this, dentists, even physicians, psychologists.

 

[BMBiology]

Cvs currently cutting new grad salaries by 11% in my area. Supply and demand?

Where is this?

 

[Neodynium]

kay, everybody hop on the pre-pharmacy bandwagon and ride!

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

No...just know that the doomsday scenarios in terms of future employment and good salaries is not as black and white and negative as many people on here (which represent a small fraction of pharmacist) is not all true. I am sure there are significant differences in pay and employment rates everywhere, but not enough of a pronounced effect to literally generalize a major catastrophe.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

Please stop advertising on the behalf of pharmacy schools, every pharmacy school is going to use these stats on the rather controversial article you posted. Also, SDN doesn't allow recruiting and advertising... so try not to post these threads as SDN needs to maintain its status as non-profit, thank you for your cooperation.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

I think the argument I am making here is free will. If you believe that entering a profession is giving a pre-destined path just by proxy, that is your problem, and one that other professions would probably look down upon seeing how non-medical professionals have to deal with the very thing people are complaining it. But if you do believe in free will, and know that the market is still very favorable for you, you will make what you put into it. I think one thing I will definitely accept is, the profession has gotten more competitive, and that is a good thing. It is a process needed to help refine the profession.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Cvs currently cutting new grad salaries by 11% in my area. Supply and demand?

Please stop advertising on the behalf of pharmacy schools, every pharmacy school is going to use these stats on the rather controversial article you posted. Also, SDN doesn't allow recruiting and advertising... so try not to post these threads as SDN needs to maintain its status as non-profit, thank you for your cooperation.

Advertising? I'm not even in the profession dude...I am in neuropsychology. I am providing information that whether you would like to accept it or not, is relevant. Again, unless you can provide ample evidence to counter this, I have just a valid reason to provide this.

 

[Gombrich12]

In December 2000, Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) released a report, "The Pharmacy Workforce: A Study of the Supply and Demand for Pharmacists." This report, mandated by Congress, was conducted to determine whether and to what extent a shortage of pharmacists exists. The report concludes that there is an increasing demand for pharmacists' service that is outpacing the current and possibly future pharmacist supply.

Job prospects are expected to be good over the 2008-18 period.

It's 2015, step your game up CogNeuroGuy. You might as well be telling people to buy Radioshack and Blockbuster stock if you are going to use research from 2000. That is nearly 20 years ago. The shortage is over, wages are falling, and new graduates will be unemployed to some extent.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

True, my bad on that, that was an error of reference via convenience 😛. So, my question to you, where should people go? No matter what happens, you will always have professions do this, just like we see with law. So, rather than switch professions based on market fluctuations, it should be about their fit. I urge you to look at the other forums here on SDN and see how different other people's views are on their professions. I can save you the trouble and tell you...they virtually spell out the same issues. You have the same types dissuading other people from the profession because it isn't same untapped resource anymore with a quick 6 figure salary.

I will tell you on a personal side-note, my mother has been a government mortgage underwriter for 28 years. Last week she was underwriting loans for 6 different pharmacists. Two of them were from Texas. Person 1: was a pharmacy intern with a $65K salary, after graduation, CVS bumped her up to $200K. Person 2: Another pharmacy intern with $80K salary, a year later was bumped up to a $300K salary. If we are willing to throw around personal opinions on here like many of the above, then this is yet another one.

 

[Gombrich12]

Person 1: was a pharmacy intern with a $65K salary, after graduation, CVS bumped her up to $200K. Person 2: Another pharmacy intern with $80K salary, a year later was bumped up to a $300K salary. If we are willing to throw around personal opinions on here like many of the above, then this is yet another one.

Oh, I get it you're a troll. Thanks for wasting my time.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

Advertising? I'm not even in the profession dude...I am in neuropsychology. I am providing information that whether you would like to accept it or not, is relevant. Again, unless you can provide ample evidence to counter this, I have just a valid reason to provide this.

You posted an article written by the AACP. The American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy. I thought scientific studies and conclusions were supposed to based off non-biased sources. Anyway, you are busy doing your work in neuropsychology which means you are not well aware of the current trends in pharmacy. That's fine, just try not to spread misinformation such as $200K/$300K salary offers after 1 year of employment in CVS. It's called trolling and that is not acceptable on SDN.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

I disagree, I am not trolling, I am simply providing an inverse perspective of what many of you on here like to post. So, rather than support the already substantiated claims that pharmacy is going downhill, I am providing an alternative view from the outside. So, if the AACP is not adequate for you, what would you suggest as an adequate "unbiased" source? You could make an argument that BLS is biased, but you will find every academic sociologist or economist using BLS, even CDC-related data. The one thing they have in common, is that these are organizations. It seems like it is easier for you to call me a troll rather than face an alternative view, and that, is an unacceptable trait amongst someone who is potentially going into a science-related field.

When I read on here of pharmacists and students complaining about their experiences here, I think a couple of things: 1. This person is not representative of the vast field of your profession, the opinions you provide are just that, opinions, 2. I have not seen many people use evidence to support their claims that pharmacy is a failing profession, 3. I see people who are upset, depressed and frustrated, for whatever their reasons are, and are probably projecting onto others who may not be experiencing the same issues.

BTW, the personal note about the the $200K salary is no more different than people posting their personal experiences on here, and note, I don't think this is something that should be considered for applying to this field, I used it as an example to showcase how other personal opinions and experiences are just as readily used as basis for their arguments that pharmacy is a bad profession.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I would also question the methodology of Pharmacy Manpower, AACP, etc. on how they came up with the statistics. Not only that but there is a huge conflict of interest between them and the pharmacy schools.

What about the 3-4 pharmacists who enter the workforce compared to every 1 job that is projected to open up? The math simply does not add up.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

These are good questions to ask, I would encourage you as a potential pharmacy professional to look at these sources. The health profession along with STEM fields have long been regarded as a safe profession for employment and good wages, but there are differences as you probably can tell.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

Here are your sources. Let me highlight NACDS and APhA for you, Pretty reliable, huh?

 

[Jibby321]

Where is this?

Florida

 

[pharmacistforever]

everybody is so fricking negative about a career in pharmacy. its pretty depressing

 

[fewaopi]

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/psychologists.htm
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacists.htm

Hey psychology is also apparently a good field too heck yeah!! And no metrics! Right?! I mean BLS is data that's confirmed, I can trust it too you know. Because that's how I pick my career you know...google BLS...search for high paying field with high growth rate...there it is tada like a magic! My future and life is set cowabunga!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687123/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3058448/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4213268/ (for my Canada friends and Canadians pharmacy grads also coming to US we often neglect them)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930253/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/pharmacy.122/

Lol oops I should have checked this out before posting on my last thread. Nah, I went to a good program at a public school. Had a pretty decent GPA, higher than most of my friends who passed first time around. Pass rate has always been high. [omit] I also have been having depression from not finding a job due to the saturation so I think I'm jus losing focus, but I know I have to pass if I came this far, it's just one thing I have to overcome to get done.

I apologize for stealing your quote for this thread.

😛....hey, I am a scientist, I deal with data that is confirmed, not stuff floating out there in conspiracy theories. So, if you have any reliable and valid evidence to provide that can counteract these data, please provide it.

Newsflash: Not sure you're aware but....us pharmacists are doctors? You know...trained in evidenced based medicine?! Oh and ummm on the NAPLEX, you're tested on biostats...you know...uhh...using math and statistics to interpret and blindly trust reliable and valid evidence like clinical drug trials funded by industry that carry no bias whatsoever and no our stock and entire revenue stream do not hinge on bad results of this trial and like all scientific data it's totally unbiased though which when later discovered might result in withdrawing from market or new warnings....or is totally the same and no different or not even as effective as made out to be. you know pharmacists in journal clubs, meetings, also deal with data that's confirmed.

based off what you said, it sounds like all data is trustworthy and there's no bias or conflict of interest. if you ever published paper or any type of data you know that is obviously not the case, especially when there's special interests. food industry, health reports, FED UP documentary, and so on. I could just counterargue any point made and yell "I'm a scientist" but that's not really thinking like one.

I suppose a person who says I'm a scientist to validate every point they want to make because obviously he/she has to be right about everything because he/she is a scientist and scientists never make mistakes or make retractions and isn't a pharmacist is obviously a trustworthy voice for deciding for me to pick pharmacy as a career. I could just ignore all the actual pharmacists and data and pharmacy friends and residents and pharmacy forums (not just SDN) and ever increasing reports of stories on pharmacist unemployment and just listen to the neuropsychologist.

No one is saying there are no jobs. Even lawyers can find jobs, it's just insanely hard and probably not worth it for most people. There aren't enough openings to accommodate every pharmacy grad in the future. There aren't even enough openings right now in most saturated areas. I've got friends still unemployed or changed careers and find things very distantly related. It's a lot harder for new grads to find work NOW in saturated areas (can't speak for all of USA). Most I hope should find work if they sacrifice for it but a significant number 20% or so won't. And those who do find work might not find steady or stable work. It might not be in the area they want to be in. It might not be this isolated job where I get to avoid people like some people expect. Reasons for unemployment?

1. Never worked or interned in a pharmacy before
2. Not legal to work (internationals why do you bother? unless you marry a citizen?)
3. You don't speak engrish well. (why are you in healthcare then?)
4. Not willing to relocate (the big reason) either for lifestyle or staying close to friends/family whatever. it's the main reason why unemployment is going to increase imo. they won't fill job openings in areas no one wants to be in. but even if the undesirable areas are filled, there still is saturation in saturated areas.

Some of us posters are just informing on the current job market conditions and what they are likely to be based off new healthcare laws, trends, data, personal stories (friends, colleagues). No one here is a conspiracy theorist. If anyone is close to that definition it'd likely be you. I'd sooner find gold up my butt than find a working, practicing pharmacist saying there's a national shortage of pharmacists.

We hope if anything we are helping students make informed decisions and if they do decide to do pharmacy, be better prepared, work harder, and make them more competitive by informing them the need to be more competitive because of a tighter job market. Least that's my hope and then maybe the profession will improve with better people.

If you're a public school, good student, network, save money, competitive you're likely to be okay. If you are a 2.5 C student, private school or money spending party machine and didn't do anything during school, I hope you have some connection or some plan for finding work.

 

[amazayn]

I'll admit, things are a lot rougher right now for this profession than CogNeuroGuy's post lets on. The number of schools has increased from 80-ish to 130ish in just the past decade. This is bound to impact our demand. But as someone who has committed to a career in pharmacy come high or low, it is certainly nice to see a positive perspective shared about the profession.

Some of these posters have already committed to leaving pharmacy and pursing other fields, so when they come here and say this profession is going down in flames, it feels like they're just here to justify their own decisions.

 

[Mad Jack]

Not really, not when considering other intervening variables, which is what the AACP states in their research. By this proxy, you would expect physician professions to also become more saturated, seeing how in the past 10 years alone, national averages of first-year medical students have risen drastically. Yet, this isn't the case, nor will it be. But again, this is also an opinion much like yours. So again, we are faced with hard facts, not just something an economist puts out. I am skeptical of economists simply because they have a lack of scientific inquiry, but I digress.

Because the number of practicing physicians is limited by the number of residency positions, which always fill and have remained damn near static for almost 20 years. You can increase the number of US graduates, and all it does is push out foreign grads from residency positions. It doesn't make more physicians come into practice, it just changes where those physicians went to school. Not so with pharmacy, where residencies are not required.

 

[pharmacistforever]

What about new grads who have 120k job offers right after they graduate pharmacy school. Its pretty pathetic how negative some of you are.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/psychologists.htm
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacists.htm

Hey psychology is also apparently a good field too heck yeah!! And no metrics! Right?! I mean BLS is data that's confirmed, I can trust it too you know. Because that's how I pick my career you know...google BLS...search for high paying field with high growth rate...there it is tada like a magic! My future and life is set cowabunga!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687123/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3058448/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4213268/ (for my Canada friends and Canadians pharmacy grads also coming to US we often neglect them)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930253/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/pharmacy.122/

I apologize for stealing your quote for this thread.



Newsflash: Not sure you're aware but....us pharmacists are doctors? You know...trained in evidenced based medicine?! Oh and ummm on the NAPLEX, you're tested on biostats...you know...uhh...using math and statistics to interpret and blindly trust reliable and valid evidence like clinical drug trials funded by industry that carry no bias whatsoever and no our stock and entire revenue stream do not hinge on bad results of this trial and like all scientific data it's totally unbiased though which when later discovered might result in withdrawing from market or new warnings....or is totally the same and no different or not even as effective as made out to be. you know pharmacists in journal clubs, meetings, also deal with data that's confirmed.

based off what you said, it sounds like all data is trustworthy and there's no bias or conflict of interest. if you ever published paper or any type of data you know that is obviously not the case, especially when there's special interests. food industry, health reports, FED UP documentary, and so on. I could just counterargue any point made and yell "I'm a scientist" but that's not really thinking like one.

I suppose a person who says I'm a scientist to validate every point they want to make because obviously he/she has to be right about everything because he/she is a scientist and scientists never make mistakes or make retractions and isn't a pharmacist is obviously a trustworthy voice for deciding for me to pick pharmacy as a career. I could just ignore all the actual pharmacists and data and pharmacy friends and residents and pharmacy forums (not just SDN) and ever increasing reports of stories on pharmacist unemployment and just listen to the neuropsychologist.

No one is saying there are no jobs. Even lawyers can find jobs, it's just insanely hard and probably not worth it for most people. There aren't enough openings to accommodate every pharmacy grad in the future. There aren't even enough openings right now in most saturated areas. I've got friends still unemployed or changed careers and find things very distantly related. It's a lot harder for new grads to find work NOW in saturated areas (can't speak for all of USA). Most I hope should find work if they sacrifice for it but a significant number 20% or so won't. And those who do find work might not find steady or stable work. It might not be in the area they want to be in. It might not be this isolated job where I get to avoid people like some people expect. Reasons for unemployment?

1. Never worked or interned in a pharmacy before
2. Not legal to work (internationals why do you bother? unless you marry a citizen?)
3. You don't speak engrish well. (why are you in healthcare then?)
4. Not willing to relocate (the big reason) either for lifestyle or staying close to friends/family whatever. it's the main reason why unemployment is going to increase imo. they won't fill job openings in areas no one wants to be in. but even if the undesirable areas are filled, there still is saturation in saturated areas.

Some of us posters are just informing on the current job market conditions and what they are likely to be based off new healthcare laws, trends, data, personal stories (friends, colleagues). No one here is a conspiracy theorist. If anyone is close to that definition it'd likely be you. I'd sooner find gold up my butt than find a working, practicing pharmacist saying there's a national shortage of pharmacists.

We hope if anything we are helping students make informed decisions and if they do decide to do pharmacy, be better prepared, work harder, and make them more competitive by informing them the need to be more competitive because of a tighter job market. Least that's my hope and then maybe the profession will improve with better people.

If you're a public school, good student, network, save money, competitive you're likely to be okay. If you are a 2.5 C student, private school or money spending party machine and didn't do anything during school, I hope you have some connection or some plan for finding work.

A lot of deflection and projection here, so I will move past that. I am still waiting actual evidence that provides a clear linear representation of today's graduating pharmacists with job openings and a valid and reliable projection of these variables. That simple. We can go back and forth and call names, etc., but that is what I am wanting to see. Simply saying "there are 3 graduates per one spot open" is not enough.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Because the number of practicing physicians is limited by the number of residency positions, which always fill and have remained damn near static for almost 20 years. You can increase the number of US graduates, and all it does is push out foreign grads from residency positions. It doesn't make more physicians come into practice, it just changes where those physicians went to school. Not so with pharmacy, where residencies are not required.

Again, this is true, not disputed, but you also have data that suggests that your field still has a deficit within the field. If someone can please provide an updated version of this report fro ma peer-reviewed source, that would do us all good.

 

[Mad Jack]

Again, this is true, not disputed, but you also have data that suggests that your field still has a deficit within the field. If someone can please provide an updated version of this report fro ma peer-reviewed source, that would do us all good.

Of which report? The NRMP publishes yearly data on physicians and residencies. We've got our profession thoroughly analyzed. If you want something pharmacy related, I wouldn't even know where to begin to look.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Yes, I am looking for something that provides distributions, percentages, projective models for pharmacists, data that is accumulated in a reliable and valid manner is preferable.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687123/

This article has been cited countless times. Schools in Tennessee, Virginia and North Carolina have made this article a required reading assignment for their incoming students to mentally prepare them for a tightening market. There is a thread called Pharmacy Job Market/Outlook in the Pharmacy Forum; you may try posting and searching there next time.

Yes, I am looking for something that provides distributions, percentages, projective models for pharmacists, data that is accumulated in a reliable and valid manner is preferable.

 

[PharmtoCS]

There are fields out there that produce much better returns on investment compared to pharmacy. Take for example software developers who earn $93k/year on average and can expect 22% growth within the next 10 years. There is a huge shortage of software engineers due to growth within the past few years.

Anecdotally, most software developers/engineers that I know earn $100k+ straight out of a bachelor's degree in computer science, and that is without the $200k+ debt and 4 years of schooling pharmacists have to put in. $120-150k/year is fairly common with a few years of experience. They usually have multiple job offers before they graduate.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm

 

[fewaopi]

A lot of deflection and projection here, so I will move past that. I am still waiting actual evidence that provides a clear linear representation of today's graduating pharmacists with job openings and a valid and reliable projection of these variables. That simple. We can go back and forth and call names, etc., but that is what I am wanting to see. Simply saying "there are 3 graduates per one spot open" is not enough.

No one said there's 3 grads for one open spot. Least not me. You are in a way exaggerating the profession itself quoting 200K/300K which even prepharmers won't take you seriously. No one said there are no jobs or impossible to get them. All we are doing is informing you that the reality is very different than what prepharmers expect. That's why so many are depressed or sad, they think they will be guaranteed 6 figures no matter their school, gpa, or work experience when in reality they have to actually you know...compete for a job like the rest of the country.

Unlike you I actually know people looking for work still, or are underemployed. I also know people who are actually employed too. Of course the area you are in matters and the unemployment in saturated areas will be much much higher. I'm willing to bet most pharmacists themselves know someone out of work or underemployed. Not to mention mail order has killed a lot of independents and retail. Or that 3rd party plans are killing a lot of business for pharmacies. Or that age discrimination has entered pharmacy like almost every other profession.

Your opening post is the same BS I heard 6-8 years ago. It's also not peer reviewed and is 10-14 years outdated. And it's published by the schools themselves so of course it's not biased right? Not sure about you but a lot has changed since then. Times change buddy and the music you want to hear isn't the music being played anymore. Maybe you want to hear good music for your partner's sake. I hope you tell your partner he better work his butt off, network, get good grades and take school seriously which some or many students don't. Most importantly network and do amazing on rotations. If anything the employment rate for new grads should be higher than all other groups as they are younger and cheaper. Unemployment isn't limited to graduating students but 30-40 year olds laid off because of old age or too expensive. Stability is also a factor to consider when picking a career for many. It's not just about finding work after graduation, the number schools are nervous about but keeping it, as I've mentioned.

If pharmacists organized like nurses then things could've been better than they are now but it wouldn't change the fundamental problem. Too many new schools, expanding class sizes and increased class sizes are now outpacing the available jobs created. This is evident in the unemployment or increased difficulty in obtaining employment. Before people got multiple offers to work anywhere they'd please. More and more now don't even get one, even if they interned at CVS. Most should still get an offer before graduating but it would be worse than expected.

Best bet for info is look through the employment surveys of pharmacy grads at each school. Not all schools publish this, it's generally your public institutions that do. You'll see differences in area and year polled. I've seen 25-30% new grads not have any offer or employment at graduation in saturated areas and 0% several years back in places like South Dakota.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

No one said there's 3 grads for one open spot. Least not me. You are in a way exaggerating the profession itself quoting 200K/300K which even prepharmers won't take you seriously. No one said there are no jobs or impossible to get them. All we are doing is informing you that the reality is very different than what prepharmers expect. That's why so many are depressed or sad, they think they will be guaranteed 6 figures no matter their school, gpa, or work experience when in reality they have to actually you know...compete for a job like the rest of the country.

Unlike you I actually know people looking for work still, or are underemployed. I also know people who are actually employed too. Of course the area you are in matters and the unemployment in saturated areas will be much much higher. I'm willing to bet most pharmacists themselves know someone out of work or underemployed. Not to mention mail order has killed a lot of independents and retail. Or that 3rd party plans are killing a lot of business for pharmacies. Or that age discrimination has entered pharmacy like almost every other profession.

Your opening post is the same BS I heard 6-8 years ago. It's also not peer reviewed and is 10-14 years outdated. And it's published by the schools themselves so of course it's not biased right? Not sure about you but a lot has changed since then. Times change buddy and the music you want to hear isn't the music being played anymore. Maybe you want to hear good music for your partner's sake. I hope you tell your partner he better work his butt off, network, get good grades and take school seriously which some or many students don't. Most importantly network and do amazing on rotations. If anything the employment rate for new grads should be higher than all other groups as they are younger and cheaper. Unemployment isn't limited to graduating students but 30-40 year olds laid off because of old age or too expensive. Stability is also a factor to consider when picking a career for many. It's not just about finding work after graduation, the number schools are nervous about but keeping it, as I've mentioned.

If pharmacists organized like nurses then things could've been better than they are now but it wouldn't change the fundamental problem. Too many new schools, expanding class sizes and increased class sizes are now outpacing the available jobs created. This is evident in the unemployment or increased difficulty in obtaining employment. Before people got multiple offers to work anywhere they'd please. More and more now don't even get one, even if they interned at CVS. Most should still get an offer before graduating but it would be worse than expected.

Best bet for info is look through the employment surveys of pharmacy grads at each school. Not all schools publish this, it's generally your public institutions that do. You'll see differences in area and year polled. I've seen 25-30% new grads not have any offer or employment at graduation in saturated areas and 0% several years back in places like South Dakota.

Yup, I will tell my husband that, my husband is fully aware of these issues, coming from Brazil, these things are very small compared to what pharmacists in Brazil deal with. Otherwise, the issues you address here are nothing unique that other professions deal with, they really are not. Networking, working hard....we should all expect those to be the basic practices a student in a professional field to address, not some luxury. I promise you, if you worked in psychology, you would be looking at pharmacy with a whole new perspective.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Best bet for info is look through the employment surveys of pharmacy grads at each school. Not all schools publish this, it's generally your public institutions that do. You'll see differences in area and year polled. I've seen 25-30% new grads not have any offer or employment at graduation in saturated areas and 0% several years back in places like South Dakota.

Problem with polling like this is; convenience sampling. Your sample could only be generalized to the population directly surrounding it. In this case, it seems that you would want something fairly generalizable across a broad range, right? If that is the case, this wouldn't be the best way to go.

 

[fewaopi]

Problem with polling like this is; convenience sampling. Your sample could only be generalized to the population directly surrounding it. In this case, it seems that you would want something fairly generalizable across a broad range, right? If that is the case, this wouldn't be the best way to go.

well area matters. actually this type of sampling is pretty useful for prepharmers deciding where to go to school or find work. if you look at the NYC metro area, aside from LIU which i couldn't find, the other schools have 25-30% with no plans or offers at graduation. that's not to say they don't find work after graduation but it's a lot harder than before. if you look at schools in less desirable areas like south dakota, midwest, it's much higher, near 100% though some of that data is outdated.

if we generalized in a broad sense it'd balance out and the data would look better in some cases to people. especially to people in saturated or limited opportunity areas. taking individual schools and area into account gives a good indicator on the job market in that area. and area varies. broad national sampling wouldn't be accurate if i was seeking work in NYC/PA/NJ/DC/Cali or Wyoming, Alaska, Idaho, Dakotas, Arkansas, Mississippi (damn did i spell that right 1st try?). the school and local data might prove more useful.

of course it's not accurate, not all students respond. i'd imagine it's under-reporting the severity in certain areas as no one wants to admit they lost out. but w/e the case is, under or over reporting, it's the best data you'll probably get for now until the situation becomes much worse and pharmacy journals and organizations grow the balls to confront reality.

ohio looked pretty good better than i thought. nyc metro is pretty bad. cali metros are pretty bad. FL i hear isn't as great as before. unfortunately not all schools are transparent or even publish their survey results. they certainly don't make it easy to find. and we know already about education in general doing everything they can to make the numbers look good. if a school doesn't publish i'd ask, if they refuse or don't even conduct surveys, it shows they don't seek to improve job opportunities for their students or don't want to admit to the truth and don't want to scare students spending their hard-earned money and future hard-earned money away. these numbers should be published and be easy to find but sadly for reasons we all know that isn't the case.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

I will still stick with the finer points I made earlier tho; the profession you take on, should have multiple values. I mentioned in other posts on here before, in psychology, we have also faced a surplus of professionals, this is largely due to the creation of the Psy.D. degree. The Psy.D. will put someone in debt by at least $200K, this doesn't include anything else but tuition and fees. $200K for a profession that pays $50-70K? I would think most of you think we are off our rockers, and you would have some validity in that statement. But again, it's a decision many people make because they genuinely believe in their profession. They couldn't see themselves working elsewhere, they love the work, they love the challenges, they love the payoff of how we manage mental health. APA is our accrediting body, they have not done a lot of good things for our profession in the recent years, especially with allowing the opening of for-profit schools like Argosy University, which pay them a sizable amount of money to keep the APA from shutting them down, which allows the APA to stay alive and funded. Like I mentioned, it seems like a lot of doom and gloom, you pharmacists are not alone in that field. But simply stating that now you will have to start networking, working hard, take on more or different rotations, etc. This is part of the refinement process that will make your profession better. In that article posted above, it mentions the need to filter out potentially undeserving students, thus making your field even more serious, more profession and better for it. This is a basic tenant of economics. For all of you older pharmacists, if you are scared about this process, maybe you should be, maybe you should step up your game, maybe the older pharmacists have what it takes and wont be phased out.

It's a tough situation to be in, but if you pick it for the right reasons, you will be happy. Much like nursing (I have been reading the allnurses.com forum a lot too), there are other areas to work within that is not just retail pharmacy, if this is true, explore those options. But, if you are unwilling to, that is you not adjusting to an evolving market. Markets change all the time, you should be okay with this, adaptation is a good thing. So, for new students who read these forums that debate whether or not they should take on this field, rather than throw out the typical supply/demand issue, I would also emphasize asking them what they hope to do with this degree other than retail pharmacy, do they plan to do residency, do they plan on being an entrepreneur with this. This is going to be more of a productive conversation approaching it like this, than would shoving doom and gloom down their throats. We get it already, the market sucks...move on, find ways to reframe the situation and to ask the right questions and have the right conversations. If at the end of that, they decide the work is not worth it, maybe they have other talents or available resources or are young enough to ditch for another career, then the decision made would have been made from a more concrete perspective.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

Reframing the situation is another way of sweeping the core problems underneath the rug. Before finding ways to making pharmacy a creative field and further discovering a niche where one can be fulfilled, prospective pre-pharmacy students simply cannot ignore the supply/demand issue or tweak it to their likings. For example, tweaking a statistic such as stating a $200K or $300K salary at CVS is simply misleading. To reframe their point of view like this is only doing a major disservice. Instead, it would be wise to advise those students with a genuine interest in the field to manage their expectations - that is only fair given the current economic climate. The roads will be bumpy for many; it's a numbers game in the end.

For some, people go into a particular field as a long term financial investment. To that end, it is only appropriate to state how the supply of graduates is increasing a lot quicker than the demand for the service. 41,000 jobs are expected to open up due to retirement and new opportunities. An approximate pool of 130,000 graduates are expected to compete for those positions. By having this in mind, it then gives the students an opportunity to think of potentially innovative ideas ahead of time before entering pharmacy school instead of taking it easy during the summer break. Let them put 2 and 2 together themselves upon further reflection, and have them evaluate if it's worth the time and cost instead of linking them an article written by an association that would benefit from added student enrollment.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this, as we both have different perspectives in how professionals or students provide information about their respective fields.

 

[Baller MD]

Please stop advertising on the behalf of pharmacy schools, every pharmacy school is going to use these stats on the rather controversial article you posted. Also, SDN doesn't allow recruiting and advertising... so try not to post these threads as SDN needs to maintain its status as non-profit, thank you for your cooperation.

Damn you got into dental school?

 

[Pharmacy_lifetime1]

You guys highlight networking as an important part, how would you go about networking as I have been recently accepted into pharmacy school.

 

[68quebec]

Reframing the situation is another way of sweeping the core problems underneath the rug. Before finding ways to making pharmacy a creative field and further discovering a niche where one can be fulfilled, prospective pre-pharmacy students simply cannot ignore the supply/demand issue or tweak it to their likings. For example, tweaking a statistic such as stating a $200K or $300K salary at CVS is simply misleading. To reframe their point of view like this is only doing a major disservice. Instead, it would be wise to advise those students with a genuine interest in the field to manage their expectations - that is only fair given the current economic climate. The roads will be bumpy for many; it's a numbers game in the end.

For some, people go into a particular field as a long term financial investment. To that end, it is only appropriate to state how the supply of graduates is increasing a lot quicker than the demand for the service. 41,000 jobs are expected to open up due to retirement and new opportunities. An approximate pool of 130,000 graduates are expected to compete for those positions. By having this in mind, it then gives the students an opportunity to think of potentially innovative ideas ahead of time before entering pharmacy school instead of taking it easy during the summer break. Let them put 2 and 2 together themselves upon further reflection, and have them evaluate if it's worth the time and cost instead of linking them an article written by an association that would benefit from added student enrollment.

Sup Mr Dental 😛

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

Sup Mr Dental 😛

Damn you got into dental school?

I need to find a way to change my SDN user ID (don't think it's happening), and more importantly financially plan a way to get out of debt within a reasonable time (something the folks at the $72K/yr PharmD program can only dream of doing).