A Thought on Recent "Clinical Rotation from Hell" Post

[deleted918727]

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Hi, all! PGY-1 surgical resident here. I just have a few thoughts I would like to voice concerning a recent post "Clinical Rotation from Hell." Many responders were verbally eviscerating OP, somehow commenting on his or her personal integrity, ethics, etc. having never met him/her and judging him/her off of ONE singular decision discussed over an Internet forum. We must all consider that in the times of COVID things are complicated; gone are the days of black-and-white, Machiavellian decisions. While many a medicine program may find it abhorrent to come to work sick pre-COVID and post-COVID, surgery programs are not like this. You are often judged and considered "a baby," being "dramatic," or a poor teammate if you call out because you are sick. In the times of COVID, this puts one in an extremely difficult position as you do not want to be a bad teammate or appear "soft" for calling out yet you are terrified you could potentially have COVID and put the whole team at risk. I had to call out to get tested and was lambasted by someone I considered my best friend for being "lazy." Meanwhile, I was also being verbally assuaged by one of my EM friends who said I was "selfish" for not getting calling in a day earlier to get tested when I had very mild symptoms. Medical student grades revolve primarily around evals at some schools; I was kept from an A in my family practice rotation just because the attending who did my eval gave me all 3/4's (standard for a very first rotation of 3rd year), which = an 85% eval grade. OP could have been worried that calling out would = even worse eval score and just not known what to do in the heat of the moment. It is not ok to attack someone's character that you have never worked with off of one not so great decision; haven't you ever made a bad decision? Please go find me someone who hasn't made a mistake or bad decision. You are not a bad human being based off your mistakes; your character is determined by HOW YOU REACT/ MOVE FORWARD from said mistakes.

I think the more appropriate take aways from this aforementioned discussion (if you can call being a coward and lambasting someone you don't even know over a computer a discussion) are as follows:

1) Medical students, please remember that you are not essential team members; essential meaning that you are not a paid team member overseeing patient care. Call out if you feel sick at all. I know this will be difficult (especially if you are not from a silver spoon upbringing like me and are accustomed to the blue collar mentality of only calling out if you are hemorrhaging blood or dying etc), however this will be best for everyone. Some medical schools normalize this; some don't. Just keep in perspective that there's more to be lost if you are unfortunately positive and unnecessarily expose others. Nobody cares about your grades once you get into residency, and you will get a spot even with a B on your transcript. Also know that "bad" evals are not the end all be all. I had a trauma surgeon on my general surgery rotation who gave me the worst eval I've ever received. I cried endlessly for a week and was terrified that it would keep me from getting into a surgery residency. What happened? I got a B in the class. My school didn't even include the bad parts of the eval in my MSPE, because as my dean stated, "This is the only bad eval you've had and your others are very strong. It is clearly an outlier. This happens. You can't make everyone like you." I got interviews. I got a surgical residency spot. I lost countless hours of time crying and worrying over something that didn't matter; learn from my error.

2) Residents, I think it's best to just call out and get tested ASAP if you feel sick. Obviously, this depends on your program but while I was verbally assuaged by "friends" I at least knew I wasn't giving my preceptor COVID so she could go home and infect her husband with Parkinson's. Better safe than sorry. Better verbal insults than being stigmatized as "selfish" or some other naiive, overly negative judgements re: one's character based on a single lapse in judgement.

3) In the confusing, complicated times that COVID has brought us, instead of judging each other and being fast to attack other's character for simply doing or thinking different from us, maybe we should show more kindness and compassion. Firstly, we are supposed to be heal care providers aka individuals with the utmost compassion for humanity. Secondly, it is hard to know what is "right" to do when COVID has created such daunting and confusing times for all of us. Kindness and compassion will solve more than aggression and keyboard warrioring.

Best regards to all. May we work together to make these times simpler.

 

[Mass Effect]

Hi, all! PGY-1 surgical resident here. I just have a few thoughts I would like to voice concerning a recent post "Clinical Rotation from Hell." Many responders were verbally eviscerating OP, somehow commenting on his or her personal integrity, ethics, etc. having never met him/her and judging him/her off of ONE singular decision discussed over an Internet forum. We must all consider that in the times of COVID things are complicated; gone are the days of black-and-white, Machiavellian decisions. While many a medicine program may find it abhorrent to come to work sick pre-COVID and post-COVID, surgery programs are not like this. You are often judged and considered "a baby," being "dramatic," or a poor teammate if you call out because you are sick. In the times of COVID, this puts one in an extremely difficult position as you do not want to be a bad teammate or appear "soft" for calling out yet you are terrified you could potentially have COVID and put the whole team at risk. I had to call out to get tested and was lambasted by someone I considered my best friend for being "lazy." Meanwhile, I was also being verbally assuaged by one of my EM friends who said I was "selfish" for not getting calling in a day earlier to get tested when I had very mild symptoms. Medical student grades revolve primarily around evals at some schools; I was kept from an A in my family practice rotation just because the attending who did my eval gave me all 3/4's (standard for a very first rotation of 3rd year), which = an 85% eval grade. OP could have been worried that calling out would = even worse eval score and just not known what to do in the heat of the moment. It is not ok to attack someone's character that you have never worked with off of one not so great decision; haven't you ever made a bad decision? Please go find me someone who hasn't made a mistake or bad decision. You are not a bad human being based off your mistakes; your character is determined by HOW YOU REACT/ MOVE FORWARD from said mistakes.

I think the more appropriate take aways from this aforementioned discussion (if you can call being a coward and lambasting someone you don't even know over a computer a discussion) are as follows:

1) Medical students, please remember that you are not essential team members; essential meaning that you are not a paid team member overseeing patient care. Call out if you feel sick at all. I know this will be difficult (especially if you are not from a silver spoon upbringing like me and are accustomed to the blue collar mentality of only calling out if you are hemorrhaging blood or dying etc), however this will be best for everyone. Some medical schools normalize this; some don't. Just keep in perspective that there's more to be lost if you are unfortunately positive and unnecessarily expose others. Nobody cares about your grades once you get into residency, and you will get a spot even with a B on your transcript. Also know that "bad" evals are not the end all be all. I had a trauma surgeon on my general surgery rotation who gave me the worst eval I've ever received. I cried endlessly for a week and was terrified that it would keep me from getting into a surgery residency. What happened? I got a B in the class. My school didn't even include the bad parts of the eval in my MSPE, because as my dean stated, "This is the only bad eval you've had and your others are very strong. It is clearly an outlier. This happens. You can't make everyone like you." I got interviews. I got a surgical residency spot. I lost countless hours of time crying and worrying over something that didn't matter; learn from my error.

2) Residents, I think it's best to just call out and get tested ASAP if you feel sick. Obviously, this depends on your program but while I was verbally assuaged by "friends" I at least knew I wasn't giving my preceptor COVID so she could go home and infect her husband with Parkinson's. Better safe than sorry. Better verbal insults than being stigmatized as "selfish" or some other naiive, overly negative judgements re: one's character based on a single lapse in judgement.

3) In the confusing, complicated times that COVID has brought us, instead of judging each other and being fast to attack other's character for simply doing or thinking different from us, maybe we should show more kindness and compassion. Firstly, we are supposed to be heal care providers aka individuals with the utmost compassion for humanity. Secondly, it is hard to know what is "right" to do when COVID has created such daunting and confusing times for all of us. Kindness and compassion will solve more than aggression and keyboard warrioring.

Best regards to all. May we work together to make these times simpler.

Who called who a coward? I don't see that word anywhere in that thread. No one said it nor implied it so please don't misrepresent the discussion just to make your point. No one attacked the poster's character. They gave opinions on the poster's ACTIONS. It blows my mind that people can't differentiate between the two. When you post a thread, you ask for opinions and the opinions were that the rotation was hell for the poster because his own actions. It is perfectly appropriate to point that out, just as it is in the countless other threads from med students, residents, and even attendings who get in trouble at work and then cast all the blame on the people they're in trouble with without any self-reflection on their own contribution to their predicament. None of those posts are attacking character; we're criticizing actions.

Your friend who called you lazy is being an dingus. I don't deny the culture in medicine is such that it makes people feel guilty for taking time off and that needs to change. But that is a different conversation and also was not the point the poster in the thread was making. The poster specifically said that he didn't take a Covid test because he didn't want to make up time on the rotation. It isn't just that he didn't call out for fear. He intentionally refused to be tested because he was afraid a positive result would be inconvenient for him. So he considered the possibility he had Covid and went to work anyway, not out of fear for being labeled lazy, but out of fear that he'd have to make up days on a rotation he didn't like. Then he blamed his team for being mad at him when they all got Covid. I'd be mad at him too. So should patients. He put everyone at risk and fear of making up the time isn't a good enough reason to do that. That's what invited the criticism.

Since this has all blown up, let me say it in so many words so there's no confusion: the OP of that thread may be a wonderful human being. They may have integrity and character and be a fab doctor. I'm only commenting on his actions in this particular case, not on his competence, character or anything else. I disagree with his actions and interpretation of what happened on the rotation and nothing more. I am not making a value judgment on him as a person, a med student or a future doctor.

 

[Lawpy]

Hi, all! PGY-1 surgical resident here. I just have a few thoughts I would like to voice concerning a recent post "Clinical Rotation from Hell." Many responders were verbally eviscerating OP, somehow commenting on his or her personal integrity, ethics, etc. having never met him/her and judging him/her off of ONE singular decision discussed over an Internet forum. We must all consider that in the times of COVID things are complicated; gone are the days of black-and-white, Machiavellian decisions. While many a medicine program may find it abhorrent to come to work sick pre-COVID and post-COVID, surgery programs are not like this. You are often judged and considered "a baby," being "dramatic," or a poor teammate if you call out because you are sick. In the times of COVID, this puts one in an extremely difficult position as you do not want to be a bad teammate or appear "soft" for calling out yet you are terrified you could potentially have COVID and put the whole team at risk. I had to call out to get tested and was lambasted by someone I considered my best friend for being "lazy." Meanwhile, I was also being verbally assuaged by one of my EM friends who said I was "selfish" for not getting calling in a day earlier to get tested when I had very mild symptoms. Medical student grades revolve primarily around evals at some schools; I was kept from an A in my family practice rotation just because the attending who did my eval gave me all 3/4's (standard for a very first rotation of 3rd year), which = an 85% eval grade. OP could have been worried that calling out would = even worse eval score and just not known what to do in the heat of the moment. It is not ok to attack someone's character that you have never worked with off of one not so great decision; haven't you ever made a bad decision? Please go find me someone who hasn't made a mistake or bad decision. You are not a bad human being based off your mistakes; your character is determined by HOW YOU REACT/ MOVE FORWARD from said mistakes.

I think the more appropriate take aways from this aforementioned discussion (if you can call being a coward and lambasting someone you don't even know over a computer a discussion) are as follows:

1) Medical students, please remember that you are not essential team members; essential meaning that you are not a paid team member overseeing patient care. Call out if you feel sick at all. I know this will be difficult (especially if you are not from a silver spoon upbringing like me and are accustomed to the blue collar mentality of only calling out if you are hemorrhaging blood or dying etc), however this will be best for everyone. Some medical schools normalize this; some don't. Just keep in perspective that there's more to be lost if you are unfortunately positive and unnecessarily expose others. Nobody cares about your grades once you get into residency, and you will get a spot even with a B on your transcript. Also know that "bad" evals are not the end all be all. I had a trauma surgeon on my general surgery rotation who gave me the worst eval I've ever received. I cried endlessly for a week and was terrified that it would keep me from getting into a surgery residency. What happened? I got a B in the class. My school didn't even include the bad parts of the eval in my MSPE, because as my dean stated, "This is the only bad eval you've had and your others are very strong. It is clearly an outlier. This happens. You can't make everyone like you." I got interviews. I got a surgical residency spot. I lost countless hours of time crying and worrying over something that didn't matter; learn from my error.

2) Residents, I think it's best to just call out and get tested ASAP if you feel sick. Obviously, this depends on your program but while I was verbally assuaged by "friends" I at least knew I wasn't giving my preceptor COVID so she could go home and infect her husband with Parkinson's. Better safe than sorry. Better verbal insults than being stigmatized as "selfish" or some other naiive, overly negative judgements re: one's character based on a single lapse in judgement.

3) In the confusing, complicated times that COVID has brought us, instead of judging each other and being fast to attack other's character for simply doing or thinking different from us, maybe we should show more kindness and compassion. Firstly, we are supposed to be heal care providers aka individuals with the utmost compassion for humanity. Secondly, it is hard to know what is "right" to do when COVID has created such daunting and confusing times for all of us. Kindness and compassion will solve more than aggression and keyboard warrioring.

Best regards to all. May we work together to make these times simpler.

Did you miss the sentence i bolded and enlarged in OP’s post that explains why people were eviscerating them?

 

[deleted771945]

How would one know if they have COVID? If you're a medical student, you probably feel like **** all the time. You probably have allergies. You might have a cough every now and then secondary to acid reflux. There's a million things one can attribute to "very mild COVID like symptoms."

 

[Mass Effect]

So get tested to rule it out. The majority of medical students have access to free or low-cost tests (more free than not) that return results immediately to <24 hrs. This is literally medicine 101. Are you sure you're in medical school?

Looks like accepted med student. Also didn't seem to get what Lawpy had bolded.

 

[deleted771945]

So get tested to rule it out. The majority of medical students have access to free or low-cost tests (more free than not) that return results immediately to <24 hrs. This is literally medicine 101. Are you sure you're in medical school?

That's ridiculous. Then I would need to be tested every day for the past year if that was the case. It's just not realistic.

 

[hallowmann]

That's ridiculous. Then I would need to be tested every day for the past year if that was the case. It's just not realistic.

You have a cough, you test, not COVID. Great! If cough sticks around, you don't need to retest unless symptoms are worsening. We aren't retesting people who have a chronic cough from a viral URI that already tested negative. You have allergy symptoms, you test, negative, awesome! But the second you have a symptom that is not like your usual ones, you get tested. We've all been tested a ton of times. You don't need to test every day, but you should understand the necessity of testing as a healthcare worker when you are potentially sick and working closely with others, treating people who are at risk or already ill, immunocompromised people, etc.

From the sound of it that previous OP knew he was sick, but "didn't think it was COVID" and didn't want to make up time on the rotation, and it was not a usual "oh I always have rhinorrhea or a cough because of allergies" kind of thing.

As for that other thread, I actually thought that it had some good advice at the end of the post, although it read as a bit tone deaf (mainly because they acted like keeping their mouth shut equaled "acting stupid", naw dude, keeping you're mouth shut is how most smart people act). They recommended for people to start the rotation saying very little, keeping an eye on how things run, before coming off as "too enthusiastic". That's 100% great advice for med students in my opinion. Most students who are "too enthusiastic" are in my experience really students who talk too much to a fault because they feel like they "know a lot about medicine", when in reality they know very little about practical clinical medicine. It shouldn't need to be said, but as a med student, you must at least have a vague sense that there is a lot you don't know or understand about medicine yet.

Anyway, as for this thread, I get what OP is trying to say. Medicine is harsh sometimes. We're all on edge and annoyed, and COVID is to blame for at least some of it. We certainly can afford to be nicer to each other. That said, we are also responsible for a great deal, and part of that responsibility means holding each other accountable when we make mistakes. Making those mistakes out in the real world in practice have big consequences, not just for patients but for you.

 

[lunitare]

Medicine resident here, in my third year so I've been dealing with covid since it started during my intern year. We're all tired and grouchy and sick. I'm not going to comment on the feedback the original OP got about being too enthusiastic, since that could've meant a whole spectrum of things. But I will say that exposing and potentially taking out an entire team of residents puts a ton of strain on the system. Getting coverage while those residents get tested, and potentially even longer if they end up positive, wrecks a jeopardy pool. Sometimes it's unavoidable, but in this case it was very much on the OP for not wanting to miss days. We all understand if you need to call out and get tested because you have symptoms. We're far less understanding if you wait to call out and end up infecting everyone.

 

[deleted1100659]

1. If only one attending has an issue with you, its probably the attending who is the problem

2. If every attending you rotate with finds you annoying, then you might be the problem

that is the best litmus test.

Not getting tested makes more logical sense when tests werent widely available at the start and it was significantly harder. Now I would think it wouldnt have been near as much of an issue to get tested so I suppose I dont understand the reasoning with just letting your attending know when you experience sx, and getting a test/following their advice

 

[hfiso]

Its easy to judge others until you're the one getting body aches/chills on a stressful surgery rotation getting worked like a dog. Now find an appropriate time to ask to go home 🙂

 

[Mass Effect]

Its easy to judge others until you're the one getting body aches/chills on a stressful surgery rotation getting worked like a dog. Now find an appropriate time to ask to go home 🙂

Aren't you an MS 1? The MS 3s who don't know when to speak up about Covid symptoms needs to remediate MS 3 orientation.

 

[hfiso]

Aren't you an MS 1? The MS 3s who don't know when to speak up about Covid symptoms needs to remediate MS 3 orientation.

Yes. But with 4 years as an ortho surgery PA, I've spent more time in an OR than most 3rd-year surgery residents

 

[ortnakas]

Why are we rehashing a closed thread I assume was closed for a reason?

Two things:
1) not following COVID protocols is not okay. Making time up sucks. Spreading COVID to residents/staff and worse, patients, sucks more.

2) in my experience “too enthusiastic” is code for “accidentally obnoxious.” “Accidentally” being a key phrase here. Most med students are coming off two years of isolation doing uworld and were told things like how they need to be assertive and to fight for their education, without being told they also need to learn to read the room.

 

[Mass Effect]

Yes. But with 4 years as an ortho surgery PA, I've spent more time in an OR than most 3rd-year surgery residents

Not the same.

 

[hfiso]

Believe it or not there are jobs that are harder on the body than being a med student on a gen surg rotation. Yes, those jobs might not require the same mental effort but they're stressful nonetheless. Also, not all gen-surg rotations are equal. At some of my friend's schools they were often sent home early and just followed the doctor around without doing much

Not the same.

Y’all are missing the point. All I’m saying is that if you were on a rotation at your dream residency, doing great - how would you feel about going to take a Covid test because you felt a little fatigue? Knowing when to stay home or get tested isn’t always black and white.

 

[Lawpy]

Y’all are missing the point. All I’m saying is that if you were on a rotation at your dream residency, doing great - how would you feel about going to take a Covid test because you felt a little fatigue? Knowing when to stay home or get tested isn’t always black and white.

Is this a serious question?

 

[hfiso]

Is this a serious question?

Yes and thanks for trolling yet again. I’m not making an opinion whether it is right or wrong. Just pointing out that it’s an unfortunate situation to be in. We are in a unique time where we have to make tough calls about whether we should be around others. Prior to Covid - calling in sick just wasn’t an option

 

[Lawpy]

Yes and thanks for trolling yet again. I’m not making an opinion whether it is right or wrong. Just pointing out that it’s an unfortunate situation to be in. We are in a unique time where we have to make tough calls about whether we should be around others. Prior to Covid - calling in sick just wasn’t an option

I think the only one trolling here is you. I don’t care what it was like pre-covid. Testing should always be done especially when feeling down with symptoms because patient and staff safety are prioritized over any discomfort of having to take time off

 

[hfiso]

Your dream residency will sure rank you highly when you get all of them sick. Do you also get nervous when you're at the dealership driving your favorite car (BMW, Subaru WRX, etc) and just happen to steal it because you were so "excited". Actions have consequences. If you've made it to medical school you're capable of logically thinking about your actions

First off
I don’t think a program would be offended about spreading a highly contagious virus unintentionally. You know you can spread Covid without symptoms right? Also, testing at the very first sign of symptoms is the right thing to do, but you’ve already exposed everyone by then. Does that make you a bad person? I don’t think so.

I don’t think the car analogy is relevant. I’m just saying it’s heartbreaking to have to go home when you could be making great connections at your dream job. Who couldn’t relate to that?

 

[deleted771945]

Your dream residency will sure rank you highly when you get all of them sick. Do you also get nervous when you're at the dealership driving your favorite car (BMW, Subaru WRX, etc) and just happen to steal it because you were so "excited". Actions have consequences. If you've made it to medical school you're capable of logically thinking about your actions

Comparing OP's actions to a felony crime is just....wild.

 

[ortnakas]

First off
I don’t think a program would be offended about spreading a highly contagious virus unintentionally. You know you can spread Covid without symptoms right? Also, testing at the very first sign of symptoms is the right thing to do, but you’ve already exposed everyone by then. Does that make you a bad person? I don’t think so.

I don’t think the car analogy is relevant. I’m just saying it’s heartbreaking to have to go home when you could be making great connections at your dream job. Who couldn’t relate to that?

I can relate to that decision while still thinking it’s not the right decision.

 

[Mass Effect]

Y’all are missing the point.

We're not missing the point. We're getting the point. We just disagree with your point. We can do both at the same time.

All I’m saying is that if you were on a rotation at your dream residency, doing great - how would you feel about going to take a Covid test because you felt a little fatigue? Knowing when to stay home or get tested isn’t always black and white.

Yes, it is black and white and any MS 3 who doesn't know that doesn't belong on clerkships. When you're sick, you test. Done. I don't care if you're rotating with the Chief of Service at MGH in your dream specialty and he asked you to first assist. Killing patients or team members because of your own selfishness is NEVER the answer. Pull that crap on my rotation and I'll make sure you're DNR at the rank meeting.

 

[Mass Effect]

Yes and thanks for trolling yet again. I’m not making an opinion whether it is right or wrong. Just pointing out that it’s an unfortunate situation to be in. We are in a unique time where we have to make tough calls about whether we should be around others. Prior to Covid - calling in sick just wasn’t an option

Dude, anytime you have a contagious illness that can kill vulnerable patients, calling in sick is/was/forever will be an option. Some were just too selfish to do it. And they still are.

 

[Mass Effect]

First off
I don’t think a program would be offended about spreading a highly contagious virus unintentionally.

Except that it wasn't unintentional. Not at all. The poster knew he might be positive which is why he delayed testing for 2 days. He said so in so many words. And then he wondered why he's a pariah. He's lucky he wasn't blackballed. Failing Safety 101 is grounds for a prompt F in the rotation.

I’m just saying it’s heartbreaking to have to go home when you could be making great connections at your dream job.

You know what's more heartbreaking? The innocent patient whose hospitalization was compromised by Covid because they had a selfish MS 3 on their team. When it's a choice between killing or harming patients and "making great connections at your dream job", if you choose the latter, be prepared for the firestorm that's deservedly headed your way.

 

[hfiso]

Except that it wasn't unintentional. Not at all. The poster knew he might be positive which is why he delayed testing for 2 days. He said so in so many words. And then he wondered why he's a pariah. He's lucky he wasn't blackballed. Failing Safety 101 is grounds for a prompt F in the rotation.



You know what's more heartbreaking? The innocent patient whose hospitalization was compromised by Covid because they had a selfish MS 3 on their team. When it's a choice between killing or harming patients and "making great connections at your dream job", if you choose the latter, be prepared for the firestorm that's deservedly headed your way.

I agree with you on your point where it’s not ok to come to work sick or delay testing if sick.


But you are missing my point in this regard- it’s not always black and white when you’re first getting sick. All I’m saying is that it’s a tricky time to be a med student where you have to impress preceptors (by showing face) yet also balance patient risk. Tired or sneezing a couple times or a little stuffy? Covid or just allergies? When to draw the line when you’ve also been up late dealing with other life issues.

Also, side tangent- this is a crazy time when a Starbucks worker can’t go to work if they were exposed to a Covid positive patient, but the ICU attending can literally be Covid POSITIVE and show up to work “as long as they are asymptomatic.”

 

[Rogue42]

We're not missing the point. We're getting the point. We just disagree with your point. We can do both at the same time.




Yes, it is black and white and any MS 3 who doesn't know that doesn't belong on clerkships. When you're sick, you test. Done. I don't care if you're rotating with the Chief of Service at MGH in your dream specialty and he asked you to first assist. Killing patients or team members because of your own selfishness is NEVER the answer. Pull that crap on my rotation and I'll make sure you're DNR at the rank meeting.

Dude, anytime you have a contagious illness that can kill vulnerable patients, calling in sick is/was/forever will be an option. Some were just too selfish to do it. And they still are.

You've been very vocal on both threads.

You're not really disagreeing so much as telling people that they are completely, unequivocally incorrect, and that it is beyond your imagination that anyone could think otherwise. But keep in mind, people are also allowed to disagree with you in the exact same manner. Except it seems that you will not just let it go when someone disagrees with you.

Next thing, is that "vulnerable" patients could mean a slew of things. What are we talking? Immunocompromised, unvaccinated, what? Because honestly, immunocompromised patients could just as well die from someone with Staph aureus on their skin as they could with someone who is triple vaccinated and is an asymptomatic Covid carrier. You can argue this fact seventeen ways from Sunday, but this point is true. "Ah, yes Rogue, but KNOWING you are Covid+ is what we are talking about here." I agree, it is different, but if I have a URI which can be caused by all sorts of things including enterovirus (which does kill immunocompromised patients), and test negative for Covid and Flu, then I can STILL put vulnerable populations at risk.

Furthermore, Covid tests are not 100% either. I can have the freaking sniffles, go test like you want people to do, and test positive while really being negative with a false positive. Okay, I agree, this is not a bad thing. Except you do miss out, and then have to make up days on the attendings time, not your own or delay a rotation. Which to your point would be better than risking peoples lives - and I am not necessarily disagreeing with that, but seems rather excessive for what could possibly be a false positive. OR, I could have the sniffles, go test, test negative, and really be positive. Then what? Because this has to happen all the time in hospitals and no one realizes it unless it causes an outbreak. By the time it causes an outbreak and staff, residents, other medical students get and test positive for covid, the original source - which may have been the person that tested negative to start with - cannot even be identified. Is this a better scenario for a medical student because at least they tested negative first and no one can figure out it was them?

Finally, the CDC is even allowing workers to go back to work as COVID+ as long as they are asymptomatic. But what is asymptomatic? What if I am asymptomatic positive, work for two days, and wake up on day three with mild lower back pain? Whose to say that symptom is covid related or not? No one except God himself would be able to figure that out.

The student in question, that started this whole thing, could have went and tested on day one. It be negative while really positive, and test again on day three to be positive. But I guess your whole point is that as long as he would have done it initially, the rest of what happens next would not have mattered cause he was acting responsible to go on day one? Because it seems like that is you and Lawpy's argument, and while I am not necessarily disagreeing with that point, what I am saying is it is not unreasonable and it is not for a lack of critical thinking, to wake up with a sniffle which could be caused by a million things not covid related, or fatigue which could be caused by going to sleep at midnight and waking up early, or a sore throat which could be experienced by sleeping with you mouth open in dry air (for us mouth breathers),and not immediately go get tested for covid. Critical thinking tells me, when I experience those things, that is probably due to a more likely source than Covid. Much like many of our patients do.

All that to really say that this whole thing, in my opinion is not as black and white as you are making it out to be.

Finally, as long as you keep the same attitude and would expect the same punishment towards residents and attendings who do not follow covid protocols, then I really do not have any qualms with your opinions. Because I know dang well on my surgery rotation that I spent a week with a 4th year surgery resident who had a cough and runny nose, attributed it to allergies, the attending knew about it, he operated on 5-6 patients a day, and rounded every morning for a week before he got tested, only to test positive. In your words, putting the attendings, patients, nurses, other residents, and me in danger; only for no one on, my surgery team to bat an eye about it.

Lastly, medicine is toxic enough. We show our patients grace, but why don't we show each other grace?

 

[Mass Effect]

I agree with you on your point where it’s not ok to come to work sick or delay testing if sick.

But you are missing my point in this regard- it’s not always black and white when you’re first getting sick.

As I said, if this was the reason the poster didn't test, I have no issue with that. But the poster admitted himself he didn't want to get tested due to missing time. This isn't a case of someone not picking up on symptoms. It's a case of someone knowing he had symptoms and dismissing it.

 

[Rogue42]

As I said, if this was the reason the poster didn't test, I have no issue with that. But the poster admitted himself he didn't want to get tested due to missing time. This isn't a case of someone not picking up on symptoms. It's a case of someone knowing he had symptoms and dismissing it.

Wrong, the poster said, and I quote:
"...my symptoms were extremely mild and I didn't think I had Covid..."

Missing days part was the second half of the sentence as you could miss a whole 24-48 hours waiting on results in which you would have to make up on the attendings time (if they have any) or risk failing the rotation.

 

[Mass Effect]

You've been very vocal on both threads. You're not really disagreeing so much as telling people that they are completely, unequivocally incorrect, and that it is beyond your imagination that anyone could think otherwise. But keep in mind, people are also allowed to disagree with you in the exact same manner. Except it seems that you will not just let it go when someone disagrees with you.

When people quote me, I respond. Even when people don't quote me, if I have something to say, I respond.

Next thing, is that "vulnerable" patients could mean a slew of things. What are we talking? Immunocompromised, unvaccinated, what? Because honestly, immunocompromised patients could just as well die from someone with Staph aureus on their skin as they could with someone who is triple vaccinated and is an asymptomatic Covid carrier. You can argue this fact seventeen ways from Sunday, but this point is true. "Ah, yes Rogue, but KNOWING you are Covid+ is what we are talking about here." I agree, it is different, but if I have a URI which can be caused by all sorts of things including enterovirus (which does kill immunocompromised patients), and test negative for Covid and Flu, then I can STILL put vulnerable populations at risk.

So what is your point? I don't understand what you're driving at here. Yes immunocompromised patients are at risk from staph, from entero, from Covid, from flu, from everything. And? That doesn't diminish what I said. In terms of vulnerable, anyone in the hospital is vulnerable, some more than others. I don't know what rotation the poster was doing at the time, but even general medicine has patients who are vulnerable either due to age, meds or comorbidities.

Furthermore, Covid tests are not 100% either. I can have the freaking sniffles, go test like you want people to do, and test positive while really being negative with a false positive. Okay, I agree, this is not a bad thing. Except you do miss out, and then have to make up days on the attendings time, not your own or delay a rotation. Which to your point would be better than risking peoples lives - and I am not necessarily disagreeing with that, but seems rather excessive for what could possibly be a false positive.

Testing seems excessive for what could be a false positive? I think you're totally missing my point because you seem to be agreeing with me yet arguing around it at the same time. My beef is not with not recognizing symptoms in time. My beef is with the thought that it's better not to test because it's inconvenient for me. I find that stance to be selfish and negligent.

OR, I could have the sniffles, go test, test negative, and really be positive. Then what? Because this has to happen all the time in hospitals and no one realizes it unless it causes an outbreak. By the time it causes an outbreak and staff, residents, other medical students get and test positive for covid, the original source - which may have been the person that tested negative to start with - cannot even be identified. Is this a better scenario for a medical student because at least they tested negative first and no one can figure out it was them?

Of course it's better. Because it shows the med student put the lives of the patients and the team ahead of his own convenience. Had the poster posted that, my response would have been 180 degrees different. I would have been questioning (or blasting) the team for blaming a med student for getting sick and having a false negative. In that scenario, there would have been nothing selfish in the act. It would have just been a very unfortunate situation for the patients and team.

Finally, the CDC is even allowing workers to go back to work as COVID+ as long as they are asymptomatic. But what is asymptomatic? What if I am asymptomatic positive, work for two days, and wake up on day three with mild lower back pain? Whose to say that symptom is covid related or not? No one except God himself would be able to figure that out.

I mean, I don't agree with the CDC's recommendation but that's beside the point. Even those who are asymptomatic are supposed to alert that they tested positive and are supposed to be working on Covid units so as not to infect non-Covid patients. And the med students are not attendings or residents. The reason the attendings or residents are able to work is because they need doctors. A med student missing a few days is loads better than the entire being sick, possibly out due to symptoms or caring for loved ones who are now sick, or being relegated to Covid units only.

The student in question, that started this whole thing, could have went and tested on day one. It be negative while really positive, and test again on day three to be positive. But I guess your whole point is that as long as he would have done it initially, the rest of what happens next would not have mattered cause he was acting responsible to go on day one?

It would have mattered because it's terrible for anyone to get Covid and then spread it along, but I would have been sympathetic toward the student and applauded him for acting responsibly.

Finally, as long as you keep the same attitude and would expect the same punishment towards residents and attendings who do not follow covid protocols, then I really do not have any qualms with your opinions.

As I have said on other threads, any physician or provider who knowingly increases a patient's chance of getting Covid should be punished. In some cases, I've even defended suspending an attending's license for giving false information to patients. There was a story about someone coming to work without masks and infecting patients early in the pandemic. I also advocated for strong punishment, including suspension of license for that individual. This really is Medicine 101. Your first duty is to do no harm. If you can't follow that very simple rule you should be formally reprimanded.

Because I know dang well on my surgery rotation that I spent a week with a 4th year surgery resident who had a cough and runny nose, attributed it to allergies, the attending knew about it, he operated on 5-6 patients a day, and rounded every morning for a week before he got tested, only to test positive.

Some doctors suck. Some departments suck. If that was my resident, I'd be questioning that Covid test on day 1. I sent a resident home in the first year of the pandemic for being sick. He came in, said he thought it was allergies, I rounded on the patients myself and sent him for a Covid test. It came back positive and I sent him home.

Lastly, medicine is toxic enough. We show our patients grace, but why don't we show each other grace?

As already said, I didn't say the poster was a bad person or a bad doctor. I said he made a bad decision. And he did. Yes medicine is toxic. But you don't make it less toxic by defending bad actions. You don't make excuses for mistakes. You own them and you learn from them.

 

[Mass Effect]

Wrong, the poster said, and I quote:
"...my symptoms were extremely mild and I didn't think I had Covid..."

Missing days part was the second half of the sentence as you could miss a whole 24-48 hours waiting on results in which you would have to make up on the attendings time (if they have any) or risk failing the rotation.

Oh please. Now you're just trying to change the meaning of the statement. The poster said he didn't think he had Covid and didn't want to miss time on the rotation so he waited TWO DAYS. He didn't say he got tested after work. He didn't even say he got tested the next day. He waited TWO DAYS. So if he did actually miss 24-48 hours while awaiting results, then that means, he and his team were infecting patients a good 3-4 days after symptom onset. He could have, at the very least, gotten a rapid test on day 1. There's just no excuse to wait 2 days.

 

[Rogue42]

So what is your point? I don't understand what you're driving at here. Yes immunocompromised patients are at risk from staph, from entero, from Covid, from flu, from everything. And? That doesn't diminish what I said. In terms of vulnerable, anyone in the hospital is vulnerable, some more than others. I don't know what rotation the poster was doing at the time, but even general medicine has patients who are vulnerable either due to age, meds or comorbidities.

The point is, COVID or no COVID, vulnerable populations will always be at risk. Acting as if COVID is the end all be all of infectious diseases downplays other issues and upsells covid. Reality is that a URI can be just as deadly as COVID given the right situation, and testing negative while having a URI can still put certain populations at risk. But we cant all just stop showing up to work or stop treating immunocompromised patients in due to these possibilities.

Oh please. Now you're just trying to change the meaning of the statement.

Here is the statement:

"I got COVID while rotating and inadvertently possibly passed it to others as I waited 2 days before getting tested as my symptoms were extremely mild and I didn't think I had Covid nor did I want to miss days off my rotation..."

And here is the issue,
I read and interpreted this statement as: My symptoms were extremely mild -> therefore I did not think I had covid -> there is no reason for me to get tested because I don't have covid -> therefore there is no reason to miss days off my rotation for this non-issue.

You read and interpreted it as something like: I have symptoms of COVID -> But I don't want to get tested unless someone notices my symptoms -> because when I test positive I will have to miss days -> And I do not want to miss days because its inconvenient.

We both had to interpret the meaning of the sentence because ALL he said was that his symptoms were mild, he did not think he had it, and he did not want to miss days that he would then have to make up. It does not say he wanted to miss them, it did not say that he thought he had covid, it did not say he was being selfish as an inconvenience. It did not say any of those things.

So both of us, and like many of the other people in both threads, had to interpret some of the meanings. Some people came to your conclusion and some people came to mine. And some to their own.

Who is right and who is wrong is really a matter of interpretation and opinion. Waiting two days may be a point of discussion, but what are we counting as two days? I get it day 0 and wait till day 2? or I get it day 0 and test on day 1? I don't remember if the poster ever clarified that point, but one is less severe than the other and you did make that clear.

And quite frankly, I do not think I changed the meaning of the sentence, but honestly I do not think you changed it either. We just interpreted it differently.

selfish

As already said, I didn't say the poster was a bad person or a bad doctor. I said he made a bad decision. And he did. Yes medicine is toxic. But you don't make it less toxic by defending bad actions. You don't make excuses for mistakes. You own them and you learn from them.

Some doctors suck. Some departments suck. If that was my resident, I'd be questioning that Covid test on day 1. I sent a resident home in the first year of the pandemic for being sick. He came in, said he thought it was allergies, I rounded on the patients myself and sent him for a Covid test. It came back positive and I sent him home.

Finally, I do not know what part of the country you are from or what political party you back or what belief systems you hold, but we cannot act like this does not play a role in every medical students life across the country.

You as a preceptor seem like you have a set of rules and guidelines on how you expect your residents and medical students to act. Which is somewhere in the boat of, "hey you feel sick, get tested, be safe and keep everyone around you safe."

But some preceptors' rules are "if you can work, work. And if you miss too many days, you fail" OR they simply do not believe in covid. Wild, but I have had a few of those preceptors as well. I have also had preceptors where their political beliefs do not align with mine, and they ask / discuss how horrible x,y,z is regarding the opposite beliefs; and I can tell you that in those situations, I 100% believe that if I led on that I disagreed with them or told them my political stance was different, then my evaluation would be affected. And that is the toxic, sucky part of medicine. Especially considering this scenario whereas covid may or may not be a political issue (even though it should not be) to an attending.

Which brings me to my last point: as a medical student, you may not always know where your preceptors beliefs on things lay - even things that should be universally agreed on such as Covid protocols. You think the person was selfish; but if he had made this same post, except he went and got tested, and tested negative, then failed the rotation for missing work days, you would probably have said that the actions of his preceptor were abhorrent. Whereas some people would have simply said that he shouldn't have been lazy.

 

[Rogue42]

What schools do ya'll go to where people are failing rotations for something as serious as COVID? Many people missed months of rotations during the lockdown and they're doing just fine as interns now. Schools are understanding. Mine, for example, is very flexible with these things. Let's not act as if deans are kicking out students for missing a day or two. Even pre-COVID many people knew how to game the system and get several days off of a rotation without any consequences (schools are aware of these things)

It is less of a school thing as it is a preceptor thing for me. Failing a rotation or doing poorly on one is 1000% dependent on a preceptor; what they think of you, your skills, your intangibles, your work ethic.

There are preceptors that exist that do not believe in Covid; so having to tell them that you are missing a day to get tested because of a runny nose may very well mean to them that you are lazy which would be a horrible thing to have on an evaluation.

It is not always easy to know exactly what a preceptor will say, think, or write about you regarding non-clinical related opinions, and it is not a fun game to play or test out.

 

[Mass Effect]

The point is, COVID or no COVID, vulnerable populations will always be at risk. Acting as if COVID is the end all be all of infectious diseases downplays other issues and upsells covid.

Hold up, there is no upselling of Covid nor downplaying of other diseases. But let's not act like Covid is equivalent to a cold. It fundamentally is not. That is a fact. There is a reason healthcare workers are required to have certain vaccinations if they're involved in patient care.

Reality is that a URI can be just as deadly as COVID given the right situation,

Yes given the right situation. You've chosen a rather unique perspective here. We shouldn't criticize the student's decision in not getting tested for Covid because a URI might be deadly to a small(er than Covid) subsection of the population?

and testing negative while having a URI can still put certain populations at risk.

All the more reason the OP should have told his resident or preceptor and let them make the call.

But we cant all just stop showing up to work or stop treating immunocompromised patients in due to these possibilities.

Yes we can, especially as a medical student. You are trying to apply pre-pandemic strategies to a pandemic. That doesn't work. During a pandemic, you at the very least call your resident or preceptor and tell them you're having symptoms. They will direct you on the best course of action. When you're with me, I say test because the patients and your team do not deserve to get sick because you "thought" you didn't have Covid.

Here is the statement:

"I got COVID while rotating and inadvertently possibly passed it to others as I waited 2 days before getting tested as my symptoms were extremely mild and I didn't think I had Covid nor did I want to miss days off my rotation..."

And here is the issue,
I read and interpreted this statement as: My symptoms were extremely mild -> therefore I did not think I had covid -> there is no reason for me to get tested because I don't have covid -> therefore there is no reason to miss days off my rotation for this non-issue.

I mean, that's your interpretation which I just don't agree with. I think it's very clear in saying "nor did I want to miss days off my rotation". Language matters. The poster didn't think he had Covid nor did he want to miss days. Obviously the thought that he might have Covid occurred to him for him to even go down that path, even if he brushed it off, and then the decision not to miss days led him to make the ultimate decision that cost him his standing on the rotation. And that's all fine and good, if he would have taken ownership of that. But to blame the team for being mad at him for that choice is just...astounding.

You read and interpreted it as something like: I have symptoms of COVID -> But I don't want to get tested unless someone notices my symptoms -> because when I test positive I will have to miss days -> And I do not want to miss days because its inconvenient.

We both had to interpret the meaning of the sentence because ALL he said was that his symptoms were mild, he did not think he had it, and he did not want to miss days that he would then have to make up. It does not say he wanted to miss them, it did not say that he thought he had covid, it did not say he was being selfish as an inconvenience. It did not say any of those things.

It's clear to me in the language. This is why language is important.

So both of us, and like many of the other people in both threads, had to interpret some of the meanings. Some people came to your conclusion and some people came to mine. And some to their own.

Who is right and who is wrong is really a matter of interpretation and opinion. Waiting two days may be a point of discussion, but what are we counting as two days? I get it day 0 and wait till day 2? or I get it day 0 and test on day 1? I don't remember if the poster ever clarified that point, but one is less severe than the other and you did make that clear.

Man with the twists and turns. You're free to interpret it however you wish.

You as a preceptor seem like you have a set of rules and guidelines on how you expect your residents and medical students to act. Which is somewhere in the boat of, "hey you feel sick, get tested, be safe and keep everyone around you safe."

This is not me saying this. This is Medicine 101. You do not make patients sick. Why do you think we wear gloves for procedures? Why do we wash our hands? Why do we sanitize? Why are we required to get flu shots? Why are we tested for TB? These are not Covid rules. These are rules to insure patients who need help, get help without risking their health even further.

But some preceptors' rules are "if you can work, work. And if you miss too many days, you fail" OR they simply do not believe in covid.

I will say this. Any preceptor who does not believe in Covid and is telling this to med students and/or to patients should be reported to the school and/or the medical board. If any med student is afraid to do this reporting, they should send me a message. I will send a message myself to the school or the board of medicine in that state. These quacks should not be teaching the next generation of med students.

Wild, but I have had a few of those preceptors as well. I have also had preceptors where their political beliefs do not align with mine, and they ask / discuss how horrible x,y,z is regarding the opposite beliefs; and I can tell you that in those situations, I 100% believe that if I led on that I disagreed with them or told them my political stance was different, then my evaluation would be affected.

Which is why politics should never be discussed between preceptor and student or resident and student. Ever. I never ask nor talk about politics with my students or my residents because it's an unfair power play and they're going to agree to whatever I say. This should be in the preceptor's evaluation.

And that is the toxic, sucky part of medicine. Especially considering this scenario whereas covid may or may not be a political issue (even though it should not be) to an attending.

Which brings me to my last point: as a medical student, you may not always know where your preceptors beliefs on things lay - even things that should be universally agreed on such as Covid protocols. You think the person was selfish; but if he had made this same post, except he went and got tested, and tested negative, then failed the rotation for missing work days, you would probably have said that the actions of his preceptor were abhorrent. Whereas some people would have simply said that he shouldn't have been lazy.

I can't think of any school, ever, who would uphold an F for a student who got tested for Covid. Not a single one. But really your situation wouldn't have even happened if the student in question had done the obvious thing which is just telling his team he wasn't feeling well. It's not a hard sentence to get out. "Joe, I'm feeling a little under the weather. I think it's just allergies, but with Covid, I wanted to let you know. I'm happy to report to work as I don't think it's Covid, but I will get tested to be sure if you like". It's a shame that needs to even be asked, but I am aware that some of my colleagues are fools and sometimes a med student needs guidance. But to not even do that speaks to poor judgment.

At the three hospitals I work at, all staff including students are required to deny Covid symptoms in order to report to work.

 

[calivianya]

What schools do ya'll go to where people are failing rotations for something as serious as COVID? Many people missed months of rotations during the lockdown and they're doing just fine as interns now. Schools are understanding. Mine, for example, is very flexible with these things. Let's not act as if deans are kicking out students for missing a day or two. Even pre-COVID many people knew how to game the system and get several days off of a rotation without any consequences (schools are aware of these things)

I wish this was true for my school.

My school has a flat policy that if you miss more than two days, you fail and have to repeat the rotation. That includes if you have a valid medical excuse - you’re just on a leave of absence but you still have to repeat the rotation. And if it happens in fourth year, you have to find the replacement yourself - they don’t give us any rotations for fourth year. We have to find 100% of our rotations, and we’ve been told that if we can’t and don’t have the required number of hours, we won’t be able to graduate.

So I mean they won’t kick us out, they just won’t graduate us on time, so we won’t be able to start residency.

I found my rotations through VSAS and I’d think most are probably full at this point in the year… I’d probably have trouble finding a replacement rotation if I had to miss two days anywhere at this point. I could walk into local offices and beg and plead to shadow someone, I guess, but that’s a wild card especially with rising COVID cases, and if we don’t have a pre-existing affiliation agreement, it could take my school months to work that out and I may not be able to get that rotation even if the preceptor agrees. I had one place where it took almost four months to get the affiliation agreement done, and I was sweating bullets right up to the week before the rotation started, wondering if I was going to be able to go in or not. Plus stressing because the housing cost me $2k on airb&b and I couldn’t afford to lose it and suddenly have to pay as much money AGAIN to secure housing somewhere else in the country, especially in the final few days before I was supposed to have to be somewhere.

I’ve seen a lot of students panicking and asking if anyone knows of anyone willing to take students on our class GroupMe because some preceptors have been cancelling rotations and kicking students out again because of rising COVID cases, so I wouldn’t be surprised if I have at least a handful of people in my class who are unable to graduate, tbh.

I agree that going into the hospital with symptoms is an absolutely horrible idea, but I can’t 100% say that with my school’s setup that I would do the right thing either, tbh. I’m just vaccinated, boosted, wearing my mask everywhere, and washing my hands a whole lot so hopefully it doesn’t become an issue… or that I have a preceptor who’s willing to lie and say I didn’t miss any days if it does crop up.

After all, my school has absolutely no idea if I’m missing days or not if my rotation doesn’t tell them I missed days.

 

[Mass Effect]

I wish this was true for my school.

My school has a flat policy that if you miss more than two days, you fail and have to repeat the rotation. That includes if you have a valid medical excuse - you’re just on a leave of absence but you still have to repeat the rotation.

If you miss two days is harsh. Name and shame.

And if it happens in fourth year, you have to find the replacement yourself - they don’t give us any rotations for fourth year. We have to find 100% of our rotations, and we’ve been told that if we can’t and don’t have the required number of hours, we won’t be able to graduate.

So I mean they won’t kick us out, they just won’t graduate us on time, so we won’t be able to start residency.

I mean, I think you're either misunderstanding the policy or your school has left themselves vulnerable to being literally owned by a student who can't graduate on time due to their mother dying. Or even, being asymptomatic and testing Covid positive (per CDC guidelines, they still get at least 5 days of quarantine).

I’ve seen a lot of students panicking and asking if anyone knows of anyone willing to take students on our class GroupMe because some preceptors have been cancelling rotations and kicking students out again because of rising COVID cases, so I wouldn’t be surprised if I have at least a handful of people in my class who are unable to graduate, tbh.

See above. This is not going to happen. I understand why you and your friends are anxious, but it is just not going to happen. Really. They would be in a huge legal hole when someone sued and would have no justification considering they just graduated an entire class that was relegated to "remote clerkships" for the same exact reasons.

 

[calivianya]

See above. This is not going to happen. I understand why you and your friends are anxious, but it is just not going to happen. Really. They would be in a huge legal hole when someone sued and would have no justification considering they just graduated an entire class that was relegated to "remote clerkships" for the same exact reasons.

I mean, I saved this screenshot from earlier this year, from one of my classmates. The response he got to the “I might not be able to finish on time” email was “Well, enter the 2023 match then.” Doesn’t seem like they give a crap if we can’t start residency or not.

Since then they have removed a four week block of electives, so hopefully most of us can be finished by June, but some people in my class are cutting it close.

 

[Lawpy]

I mean, I saved this screenshot from earlier this year, from one of my classmates. The response he got to the “I might not be able to finish on time” email was “Well, enter the 2023 match then.” Doesn’t seem like they give a crap if we can’t start residency or not.

Since then they have removed a four week block of electives, so hopefully most of us can be finished by June, but some people in my class are cutting it close.

View attachment 348407

Why is your school being unreasonable? Like… i don’t understand. The medical education leaders and deans running your school are okay with you guys contracting covid and still showing up on rotations feeling sick and being a major risk to patients?

COCA should care and drop the hammer on your school and a lot of heads should roll

 

[calivianya]

Why is your school being unreasonable? Like… i don’t understand. The medical education leaders and deans running your school are okay with you guys contracting covid and still showing up on rotations feeling sick and being a major risk to patients?

COCA should care and drop the hammer on your school and a lot of heads should roll

My school claims that their policies are because of COCA - that COCA mandates certain rotations to be in-person, so, if a person were to get COVID during one of those rotations and miss more than two days, no online substitute would meet the COCA requirement and the whole rotation would have to be repeated. I don't know how true this is, but I doubt COCA would do much if my school is indeed doing what COCA tells them to do.

 

[Mass Effect]

I mean, I saved this screenshot from earlier this year, from one of my classmates. The response he got to the “I might not be able to finish on time” email was “Well, enter the 2023 match then.” Doesn’t seem like they give a crap if we can’t start residency or not.

Since then they have removed a four week block of electives, so hopefully most of us can be finished by June, but some people in my class are cutting it close.

View attachment 348407

I'd like to see them endorse such nonsense. Once you enter the match, you're entered. Once you match, you've matched. A school that delays your graduation due to missing 3 days of a FM rotation is not going to look good. If such a thing were to happen (which I doubt), your residency would likely save your spot. No way are they going to scramble for someone else after June 26th. But frankly, your school sucks. June 26th is way too late already. When are they holding graduation? June 30th?

 

[calivianya]

I'd like to see them endorse such nonsense. Once you enter the match, you're entered. Once you match, you've matched. A school that delays your graduation due to missing 3 days of a FM rotation is not going to look good. If such a thing were to happen (which I doubt), your residency would likely save your spot. No way are they going to scramble for someone else after June 26th. But frankly, your school sucks. June 26th is way too late already. When are they holding graduation? June 30th?

They're holding graduation in mid-May... tentative plan is May 13th. Appropriate to graduate Friday the 13th with the horror-show that going here has been, IMO.

But we have to finish our requirements regardless. So we are allowed to walk on May 13th for show even if our rotations are going into late June, we just won't officially have graduated. I have been fortunate to not have any rotations cancelled, or have to make them up due to illness or other missed days, so I'll be done at the end of April.

Fun fact to add to the pile of garbage: my school also doesn't let us miss days for residency interviews, so most of us lie if we're on rotation and have our preceptors cover for us. However, if a preceptor were to let our school know we missed more than two days for residency interviews, we'd have to repeat a rotation for that, too. It's not just illness, it's all-cause absence >2 days that will hold people up.

 

[Lawpy]

Fun fact to add to the pile of garbage: my school also doesn't let us miss days for residency interviews, so most of us lie if we're on rotation and have our preceptors cover for us. However, if a preceptor were to let our school know we missed more than two days for residency interviews, we'd have to repeat a rotation for that, too. It's not just illness, it's all-cause absence >2 days that will hold people up

What

Your school needs a massive administrative overhaul for actively sabotaging you guys. The COCA excuse they’re falling back on is likely insincere

 

[Lawpy]

Also looks like OP deleted their account

 

[Mass Effect]

They're holding graduation in mid-May... tentative plan is May 13th. Appropriate to graduate Friday the 13th with the horror-show that going here has been, IMO.

But we have to finish our requirements regardless. So we are allowed to walk on May 13th for show even if our rotations are going into late June, we just won't officially have graduated. I have been fortunate to not have any rotations cancelled, or have to make them up due to illness or other missed days, so I'll be done at the end of April.

Fun fact to add to the pile of garbage: my school also doesn't let us miss days for residency interviews, so most of us lie if we're on rotation and have our preceptors cover for us. However, if a preceptor were to let our school know we missed more than two days for residency interviews, we'd have to repeat a rotation for that, too. It's not just illness, it's all-cause absence >2 days that will hold people up.

Name and shame. Is this one of the newer schools?

 

[glypha1104]

I mean, I was on a surgical SubI and got really sick over the course of an 1-2hrs (legit though I had COVID) and, as I was leaving to get tested and go home, a resident said “this is the beginning of the season, just do your best to not get get sick going forward” I thought to myself, that’s a ridiculous response to the circumstances, but it did give me insight into what the expectations are generally and likely the only reason I was sent was due to the threat of COVID.

You can’t incentivize bad behavior from students, or anyone else for that matter, and then have surprised pikachu face when they make the wrong decision. Expecting people to act in an way that goes against the prevailing cultural winds or negatively impacts them is never a good bet .

 

[glypha1104]

I mean, I was on a surgical SubI and got really sick over the course of an 1-2hrs (legit though I had COVID) and, as I was leaving to get tested and go home, a resident said “this is the beginning of the season, just do your best to not get get sick going forward” I thought to myself, that’s a ridiculous response to the circumstances, but it did give me insight into what the expectations are generally and likely the only reason I was sent was due to the threat of COVID.

You can’t incentivize bad behavior from students, or anyone else for that matter, and then have surprised pikachu face when they make the wrong decision. Expecting people to act in an way that goes against the prevailing cultural winds or negatively impacts them is never a good bet .