A tip when choosing med schools

[therick248]

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ONLY apply to and accept offers from schools on a pass/fail system. I do and my lifestyle is exponentially better than my friends that do not. As I am prepping for this upcoming Head and Neck test, it makes the world of difference that I only need a 35% to pass the block. Then you can hold off competing with the losers and gunners of the world for a couple of years and not be burnt out.

 

[iniquus]

I was under the impression that schools that grade pass/fail still have an internal ranking system. It would be the only way to write meaningful recommendations and to rank you among your peers for matching.

 

[Carbon inc]

I'm sorry but this has to be the worst tip I've ever read. Besides, how is barely passing going to benefit you come time to take Step 1?

 

[afob100]

This is quite a dilemma for me. I've been accepted to my state school, which is graded A/B/C/D during the first 2 years and UVa (OOS) which is strictly P/F during pre-clinical years.

Is it worth an extra $80k over 4 years to go P/F over graded? I'm still debating this.

 

[NickNaylor]

I was under the impression that schools that grade pass/fail still have an internal ranking system. It would be the only way to write meaningful recommendations and to rank you among your peers for matching.

Not all schools keep internal rankings.

I'm sorry but this has to be the worst tip I've ever read. Besides, how is barely passing going to benefit you come time to take Step 1?

Why do you assume that everyone "barely passes?"

 

[girlofgrace7]

I'm sorry but this has to be the worst tip I've ever read. Besides, how is barely passing going to benefit you come time to take Step 1?

1) I can almost guarantee you won't remember most of the material come step 1 (considering I feel like I've thoroughly forgotten 99% of the material that was on my metabolism/cell bio test 4 weeks ago... and even more about anatomy 8 weeks ago; plus, at my medical school, second year basically refreshes what you learn first year in order to go delve into systems-based curriculum)

2) Barely passing still requires a SUBSTANTIAL amount of studying (I know some people in my class who were studying 12-18 hours a day for anatomy and who barely pulled off the required 60%)

3) My class is the first at my university that is strictly pass/fail, and we were recently told that we have the highest metabolism and cell bio test averages of any year since the course directors took over (our last cell bio quiz, the 25% cut off was 25/25 and the median was 24/25).

4) When you aren't competing (we're still ranked, but without the grading scale, people don't really care), everyone helps each other out by sharing resources and teaching one another. The classes before us were commenting on how our class isn't full of gunners and how we actually like each other.

5) After talking to students at other med schools, I can't imagine not being on pass/fail. We still all study hard, but we're not going to kill ourselves for a couple extra points on an exam. I actually have more of a social life now than I did in undergrad or high school. My school stresses that becoming worn out and jaded doesn't make for good doctors (even if they know a few more trivial facts); becoming a whole person to relate to your patients is a much better use of time.

 

[circulus vitios]

Is there really a difference? Your classes are P/F but Step I isn't.

edit: Never mind, didn't see your above post.

Is there a list of schools that are pass/fail?

 

[Ilovewater]

This is quite a dilemma for me. I've been accepted to my state school, which is graded A/B/C/D during the first 2 years and UVa (OOS) which is strictly P/F during pre-clinical years.

Is it worth an extra $80k over 4 years to go P/F over graded? I'm still debating this.

Personally, I don't think P/F is worth the extra $80k unless you have other major reasons to pick UVa over your state school. You'll just have to be able to tell yourself that it's ok to get B's...and maybe even C's.

P/F grading system is amazing. It relieves so much stress. Everyone still studies really hard because most people in med school don't just want to barely pass. Everyone wants to do well even if it's P/F. That's just how it is. But, like the OP, it is nice knowing that you only need 35% to pass the block instead of stressing out about having to get an 80% or whatever grade just to get a👎 A/B/C.

 

[MightyMoose]

ONLY apply to and accept offers from schools on a pass/fail system. I do and my lifestyle is exponentially better than my friends that do not. As I am prepping for this upcoming Head and Neck test, it makes the world of difference that I only need a 35% to pass the block. Then you can hold off competing with the losers and gunners of the world for a couple of years and not be burnt out.

This is not the best advice...


Take pass/fail so you don't have to work as hard? Just so you know, that's your advice. 👎

 

[Envix]

(we're still ranked, but without the grading scale, people don't really care)

This always confused me. What difference does it make if on the outside it is pass fail or letter, since you're eventually compared against your colleagues anyways?

 

[Ilovewater]

This always confused me. What difference does it make if on the outside it is pass fail or letter, since you're eventually compared against your colleagues anyways?

Because getting a P makes you feel better than getting a C. I think for most people, when they see letter grades, they will always strive to get A's...and if they get B's and C's, they feel horrible/dumb/etc. And to consistently get A's in med school is difficult. Some people just aren't able to accept the fact that they're getting more B's and C's instead of A's like how they used to in undergrad. It's all mentality. Plus, P/F system makes people less competitive and more willing to help others because it doesn't matter if you get an 89 or a 70...you'll still pass. No one cares.

 

[KickedOut]

I was under the impression that schools that grade pass/fail still have an internal ranking system. It would be the only way to write meaningful recommendations and to rank you among your peers for matching.

These are the schools that I'm aware of that do not have an internal ranking system and the first two years are P/F:

1. Stanford
2. Yale
3. Pritzker
4. Davis
5. Creighton
6. Virginia
7. CCLCM
8. Case Western

I know Stanford is true P/F all four years. Yale has grades in years 3 and 4, but I got the impression that it was a formality and everyone received honors. Not sure how that works out with Dean's Letters...I thought they had to list if you were top 1/3, middle 1/3, or bottom 1/3 (though I'm not sure where I remember reading/hearing this information, so it may be false).

 

[b-real]

4) When you aren't competing (we're still ranked, but without the grading scale, people don't really care), everyone helps each other out by sharing resources and teaching one another. The classes before us were commenting on how our class isn't full of gunners and how we actually like each other.

5) After talking to students at other med schools, I can't imagine not being on pass/fail. We still all study hard, but we're not going to kill ourselves for a couple extra points on an exam. I actually have more of a social life now than I did in undergrad or high school. My school stresses that becoming worn out and jaded doesn't make for good doctors (even if they know a few more trivial facts); becoming a whole person to relate to your patients is a much better use of time.

In most every school, P/F or letter grade, students help one another out. I go to a school with the traditional system and during the first 2 years, there was lots of stuff from many different people sent out over the listserve. People were willing to stay late to help one another out. Come to think of it, even during clinical rotations (also letter grade), we have an online file sharing system that is full of guides and reviews. Same goes with friends I know from other traditional schools.

Secondly, every school has gunners, you just don't know them. Gunners may not actively try to harm your grade, but they will be the ones getting 95+ on every exam without most people knowing.

Thirdly, even though your actual grades from the first 2 years matter little for residency apps, your class rank does matter. So while you may have that false sense of security that P/F is like a tremendous weight off your shoulders, the internal ranking system, which will be based on your numeric grades, will most likely go into your MSPE (aka dean's letter). There are very few schools that have a completely rankless P/F system (Yale and maybe Stanford come to mind). True, 3rd year grades/evals and Step 1 are the two most important factors for residency, but class rank is pretty high on the list too. I hope for your sake that you're making better-than-passing grades with the more-than-undergrad time off you have.

 

[eli20]

I feel like most of the schools I've been to are Honors/High Pass/Pass/Fail. Which is really just a nice way of saying A/B/C/F so I doubt I'll get much comfort out of the system. 😕

 

[bamtuba]

These are the schools that I'm aware of that do not have an internal ranking system and the first two years are P/F:

1. Stanford
2. Yale
3. Pritzker
4. Davis
5. Creighton
6. Virginia
7. CCLCM
8. Case Western

Mayo is P/F. No AOA. No internal ranking.

Agree with OP. Wouldn't have it any other way, and if you are fortunate enough to have the choice, it really does make a world of difference.

 

[dbeast]

One school I visited has the grade system, but out of 150-ish 1st year students, over 40 had straight A's. This way, there's 40 number 1 spots in the class ranking which is a heck of a lot easier than actually having to BE number 1 in a ranked P/F system.

Although no ranking and no grades does sound pretty wonderful.

 

[gettheleadout]

In most every school, P/F or letter grade, students help one another out. I go to a school with the traditional system and during the first 2 years, there was lots of stuff from many different people sent out over the listserve. People were willing to stay late to help one another out. Come to think of it, even during clinical rotations (also letter grade), we have an online file sharing system that is full of guides and reviews. Same goes with friends I know from other traditional schools.

Secondly, every school has gunners, you just don't know them. Gunners may not actively try to harm your grade, but they will be the ones getting 95+ on every exam without most people knowing.

Thirdly, even though your actual grades from the first 2 years matter little for residency apps, your class rank does matter. So while you may have that false sense of security that P/F is like a tremendous weight off your shoulders, the internal ranking system, which will be based on your numeric grades, will most likely go into your MSPE (aka dean's letter). There are very few schools that have a completely rankless P/F system (Yale and maybe Stanford come to mind). True, 3rd year grades/evals and Step 1 are the two most important factors for residency, but class rank is pretty high on the list too. I hope for your sake that you're making better-than-passing grades with the more-than-undergrad time off you have.

This contradicts everything everyone else has ever said on this site.

Okay not literally, but I mean...

 

[bacalaca]

if your school is completely pas/ fail and rankless, just think how important step 1 is... you have ONE shot at an 8 hour test that will determine your career.... even the best test takers might not like those odds cause anyone can have an off day....

 

[smad4]

if your school is completely pas/ fail and rankless, just think how important step 1 is... you have ONE shot at an 8 hour test that will determine your career.... even the best test takers might not like those odds cause anyone can have an off day....

If you don't do well on the boards, I don't think it matters if you get all Honors.

 

[bookfreak89]

These are the schools that I'm aware of that do not have an internal ranking system and the first two years are P/F:

1. Stanford
2. Yale
3. Pritzker
4. Davis
5. Creighton
6. Virginia
7. CCLCM
8. Case Western

I know Stanford is true P/F all four years. Yale has grades in years 3 and 4, but I got the impression that it was a formality and everyone received honors. Not sure how that works out with Dean's Letters...I thought they had to list if you were top 1/3, middle 1/3, or bottom 1/3 (though I'm not sure where I remember reading/hearing this information, so it may be false).

Pretty sure UCLA is also P/F all 4 years.

 

[MCAT guy]

I guess it depends too. I'm sure those who finish in the top 5% of the letter grade schools are happy they were graded. Some residencies programs pay a lot of attention to AOA/class rank, and the person who ranks high benefits in the match.

Namely, gas, opht, path, plastics, diag rads, surgery, ortho, etc.

Obviously, those p/f schools still have great match lists. So step 1 just means that much more for those individuals (and 3rd/4th yr rotation grades, where applicable).

Also, some have mentioned that they studied much more with the pressure of the grading system and subsequently did better on the boards. I guess it depends on the student, but no doubt, most prefer P/F.

 

[Mithril]

.

 

[itellitlikeitis]

I know Stanford is true P/F all four years.

Stanford recently did away with their 4 year P/F system and now ranks students during their 3rd year like most other P/F medical schools

if your school is completely pas/ fail and rankless, just think how important step 1 is... you have ONE shot at an 8 hour test that will determine your career.... even the best test takers might not like those odds cause anyone can have an off day....

You're further along in medical school than I am so correct me if I'm wrong, but so far as I understand, your board score and year 3 grades are the two things that truly matter, then AOA if your school offers it for the highly selective specialties, then there's a gap where research will then count for some of the selective specialties, then there's an enormous gap where all else that you do are given very little consideration at most if at all. (connections/LORs are pretty high up and connections can be your wild card)

 

[theWUbear]

I was under the impression that schools that grade pass/fail still have an internal ranking system. It would be the only way to write meaningful recommendations and to rank you among your peers for matching.

I have been told that regardless of the grading scale of your school, your first two year grades are barely looked at, comparatively, on residency apps. P/F systems place that little more emphasis on rotation rankings to compensate

Not all schools keep internal rankings.

How do you distinguish students academically for 3rd year AOA in that case? This is one of the reasons why schools I have knowledge of keep internal rankings

 

[theWUbear]

No, you take a P/F school so you're not cutting the throats of your peers and they don't do the same thing back to you. A lot of current med students I've talked to and my brother say that the atmosphere in a P/F school is much different than a school that ranks by letter grades; everybody's friendlier and helps each other out.

Hasty generalization, the med school I took class at this fall had an extremely collaborative environment, to the point where people were uploading their own student-created study guides and diagrams for the rest of the class. It was Honors/High Pass Pass, but the point is that as long as there is no curving (regardless of the grading scale) there is no incentive for competition between students. I'm pretty sure at least 30% of the class honored.

 

[bobsmith]

Pretty sure UCLA is also P/F all 4 years.

UCLA is P/F but it also has "letters of distinction" which are used in the dean's letter and in residency applications, so it's not really strictly P/F.

I can't really think of any school that doesn't have some sort of distinguishing/grading system in the clerkship years (especially since Stanford and Yale switched over), so this P/F vs graded system debate is really about the pre-clerkship years

Obviously, those p/f schools still have great match lists. So step 1 just means that much more for those individuals (and 3rd/4th yr rotation grades, where applicable).

Sure it means "that much more," but considering that pre-clerkship grades are one of the lowest criteria that residency directors use (citation here, see Tables 2-4) anyway, it's not like residency directors are missing a vital piece of an application that they have to make up for with the Step 1 score

Also, some have mentioned that they studied much more with the pressure of the grading system and subsequently did better on the boards.

This could be beneficial if your classes were teaching you useful things on the boards, or it could be harmful if your professors were concentrating on really insignificant little details and minor research points. At a P/F school you could spend an extra few hours a week starting some board review late in your 2nd year rather than trying to strive for that extra 3% that might bump you into an "honors" grade

How do you distinguish students academically for 3rd year AOA in that case? This is one of the reasons why schools I have knowledge of keep internal rankings

A lot of these schools (Michigan, I think, for one) don't have 3rd year AOA because of this

 

[Geekchick921]

No, you take a P/F school so you're not cutting the throats of your peers and they don't do the same thing back to you. A lot of current med students I've talked to and my brother say that the atmosphere in a P/F school is much different than a school that ranks by letter grades; everybody's friendlier and helps each other out.

This is what I have heard as well. I'm pretty sure the three schools I interviewed at are H/P/F for years 1 and 2 (electives are P/F at one of the schools, I think). I know the school I'm most likely matriculating at is H/P/F and the honors are based on grades, not percent of the class, and are never curved upwards, but sometimes downwards (92 is typically honors, but it may bump down to 90 depending on the class average). Potentially the entire class could get honors. What I bolded above has been emphasized to me at each of the three schools, and I am looking forward to the supposed lack of gunnerism. 👍

 

[WorldChanger36]

I am used to grades and gunners so a full grade scale would not bother me. Would be nice to have a known way to put myself ahead but grade system is not something that I considered when looking at med schools yet.

 

[MacVA]

I feel the need to comment here. My GF is a MS-4 and in her MPSE letter, she has exactly TWO sentences in her two pages about her FIRST two years.

Apparently, most of Step I is second year stuff. She told me on Step I she had 3 whole questions on anatomy. When applying to residency, they are way more interested in STEP scores and evals from 3rd year rotations.

 

[NickNaylor]

I really don't know why someone would choose a graded school. I refuse to go to a non-P/F school.

 

[gravitywave]

who else here has noticed the gap here between the med students telling people that P/F is a good thing, and the pre-meds who are telling the med students that it's not?

I feel the need to comment here. My GF is a MS-4 and in her MPSE letter, she has exactly TWO sentences in her two pages about her FIRST two years.

qft here, guys and gals. Most schools will include a note (typically adjectival: outstanding, great, ok....) about your class rank in your Dean's letter. But it's not a prominent part of the letter. The part where they talk about the pre-clinical classes is literally a very short paragraph that they try similarly to bury somewhere. The bulk of your Dean's letter, much like your pre-med committee letter, is based on quotes from your 3rd year evals.

Here's how it works here: the grading scale is H/P/F. H is >93% or the top 10% of the class, whichever is more people. your numerical scores never go to the dean's office or the registrar - so no one in the Match will ever see whether you got a 92 or a 70 - all they see is "Pass." There is H/HP/P/F in 3rd/4th year - but the only thing class rank is used for is AOA. There isn't even the sneaky little adjective about your rank in the letter. So, either you're AOA, or you're not. And if a PD really wants to count up the number of Honors grades you got during MS1, s/he is perfectly free to do that. But who has time 🙄

That P/F is superior isn't in doubt. the end.

 

[Geekchick921]

Gravity Wave, I just want to say that I enjoy pretty much every one of your posts on this forum. You are always so level-headed and straight-forward. You keep it real, good sir. 👍

 

[wanderer]

This is what I have heard as well. I'm pretty sure the three schools I interviewed at are H/P/F for years 1 and 2 (electives are P/F at one of the schools, I think). I know the school I'm most likely matriculating at is H/P/F and the honors are based on grades, not percent of the class, and are never curved upwards, but sometimes downwards (92 is typically honors, but it may bump down to 90 depending on the class average). Potentially the entire class could get honors. What I bolded above has been emphasized to me at each of the three schools, and I am looking forward to the supposed lack of gunnerism. 👍

Every school I've been to has said the same thing. Saying the class is so cooperative ("just last week three people uploaded their study notes and sent them to the entire class") is one of those annoying interview-day cliches, just like "we have above average step 1 scores" or "our clinical experience starts from day one."

I really don't know why someone would choose a graded school. I refuse to go to a non-P/F school.

Because things like location, cost, fit are a lot more important. Not everyone has so many choices.

Also I have a question for med students. Is H/P/F more like P/F or more like H/HP/P/F?

 

[afob100]

I really don't know why someone would choose a graded school. I refuse to go to a non-P/F school.

Money talks, no? Let's say full ride at graded school vs having to pay full price at P/F.

 

[NickNaylor]

Money talks, no? Let's say full ride at graded school vs having to pay full price at P/F.

That would be a hard choice. But I imagine very few applicants have that decision to make.

 

[BrainBuff]

Not too many schools have a true P/F system. The moment they throw in the H/P/F it turns to crap, imho. There will always be the gunners competing for the 10% of H and I do not think the atmosphere of the school is much different than having full grades. After all, in med school (just like in grad school) most people get Bs and not Cs. So H/P/F is really no different than A/B/F.

That's why the Yale system rules.

But after 22 years of being graded for everything, I do not think that having grades in med school would be a big deal anyway. Of course, I'd rather not.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

ONLY apply to and accept offers from schools on a pass/fail system. I do and my lifestyle is exponentially better than my friends that do not. As I am prepping for this upcoming Head and Neck test, it makes the world of difference that I only need a 35% to pass the block. Then you can hold off competing with the losers and gunners of the world for a couple of years and not be burnt out.

way to shoot for excellence yo

 

[manateeface]

So if your first two years' grades don't matter so much, why does it matter if there are grades for these two years? An A, a B, and a C is a pass. Isn't it then just how you feel with an A/B/C or a P?

When applying I didn't put too much stock in whether the school was P/F or not, and I felt collaborative atmospheres in both kinds of places. Other aspects of "fit" were more important to me. It seems to me that no matter where you go you'll have people that do the minimum to pass, the people who'll sacrifice everything to do the best, and everyone in between.

 

[MIAmedica]

As a pre-med and future med student for 2011, this was not the advice I was hoping to get. Right now I have to decide between 2 different schools (possibly a third acceptance this month) and both are A/B/C/F. I've been focusing more on the type of curriculum they offer (traditional vs. systems-based) and the clinical rotations, NOT how I'm graded since I know that I'll put the same amount of work into a school that does P/F as one that does letter grades. But again, I'm just a pre-med so what do I know? 🙄

 

[theWUbear]

qft here, guys and gals. Most schools will include a note (typically adjectival: outstanding, great, ok....) about your class rank in your Dean's letter. But it's not a prominent part of the letter. The part where they talk about the pre-clinical classes is literally a very short paragraph that they try similarly to bury somewhere.

Far from qft. If you'd read the earlier posts you would notice that those in favor of graded systems are debating its effect on motivation and step scores (not to say that anyone here has shown with proof an effect of either grading system on step scores, but it would be reasonable to believe that added motivation to score higher would increase one's scores) - not the effect of good grades on residency apps.

Those in favor of pass fail systems say it fosters a more collaborative environment, which in addition to being patently false (it is the absence of a curve grading students against each other, not the type of grade each student gets, that allows for a collaborative environment) has been mentioned above as the 'cliche' thing to say, which you would hear from 90% of med students about their school regardless of the grading system. And count me as one of them - despite not being in an MD program I took classes not on a strict P/F system with med students this semester and, as I posted above, the students were extremely collaborative.

Personally, I feel that I would be motivated to study harder if shown my ranking within a class and given incentives (grade cutoffs). This has nothing to do with residency applications, which indeed will hardly mention your first two years' grades.

 

[theWUbear]

way to shoot for excellence yo

+1

 

[Barcu]

Far from qft. If you'd read the earlier posts you would notice that those in favor of graded systems are debating its effect on motivation and step scores (not to say that anyone here has shown with proof an effect of either grading system on step scores, but it would be reasonable to believe that added motivation to score higher would increase one's scores) - not the effect of good grades on residency apps.

Those in favor of pass fail systems say it fosters a more collaborative environment, which in addition to being patently false (it is the absence of a curve grading students against each other, not the type of grade each student gets, that allows for a collaborative environment) has been mentioned above as the 'cliche' thing to say, which you would hear from 90% of med students about their school regardless of the grading system. And count me as one of them - despite not being in an MD program I took classes not on a strict P/F system with med students this semester and, as I posted above, the students were extremely collaborative.

Personally, I feel that I would be motivated to study harder if shown my ranking within a class and given incentives (grade cutoffs). This has nothing to do with residency applications, which indeed will hardly mention your first two years' grades.

This.

Every school I have interviewed at said they were collaborative, regardless of grading system.

In the end, I think I disagree with the OP. Not because P/F is better or worse, but because it seems that grading system should not be the deciding factor for which school you should go to.

P/F would be nice. It sure sounds nice. But should that be the reason you choose that school? That sounds kind of ridiculous. It could be A factor but not THE factor.

 

[NickNaylor]

Far from qft. If you'd read the earlier posts you would notice that those in favor of graded systems are debating its effect on motivation and step scores (not to say that anyone here has shown with proof an effect of either grading system on step scores, but it would be reasonable to believe that added motivation to score higher would increase one's scores) - not the effect of good grades on residency apps.

Those in favor of pass fail systems say it fosters a more collaborative environment, which in addition to being patently false (it is the absence of a curve grading students against each other, not the type of grade each student gets, that allows for a collaborative environment) has been mentioned above as the 'cliche' thing to say, which you would hear from 90% of med students about their school regardless of the grading system. And count me as one of them - despite not being in an MD program I took classes not on a strict P/F system with med students this semester and, as I posted above, the students were extremely collaborative.

Personally, I feel that I would be motivated to study harder if shown my ranking within a class and given incentives (grade cutoffs). This has nothing to do with residency applications, which indeed will hardly mention your first two years' grades.

Are you in medical school?

Right... ok then.

 

[BeachBlondie]

who else here has noticed the gap here between the med students telling people that P/F is a good thing, and the pre-meds who are telling the med students that it's not?

Truth.

SDN....oh, SDN...

 

[RogueUnicorn]

+1

trust me, i know 36% of this part. i got this.


but for cereal, this issue is mostly out of our hands anyway. quite frankly, it seems most top schools are going p/f, whereas lower ranked schools maintain grades (which is a good thing for them imo), and people tend to go to the highest ranked school they get into.

 

[theWUbear]

Are you in medical school?

Right... ok then.

You might have missed the few sentences where I said I took a full balance of classes at a med school this semester, Cole.

 

[Barcu]

Are you in medical school?

Right... ok then.

Truth.

SDN....oh, SDN...

Well some of us have talked to med students about this issue who are not just an anonymous poster on a forum, so while SDN can be ridiculous at times, just because you are premed should not mean that you are instantly discredited when a "med student" says something different. (not trying to imply you guys aren't actually med students but you know how the internet works).

But, for the issue at hand. I bet it's nice to have a P/F system. It sounds awesome. I bet it reduces stress. But, does everyone want to be in a P/F system? People who aren't in that system seem to be happy and do well. Should that be THE deciding factor for which school you go to? That sounds crazy.

 

[IDoIt4Love]

how on EARTH do some of you guys only need a 35% to pass your block?! at our school we need a 75% or more on each final exam to pass. And we only get the finals; no mid-terms or anything else. So basically, we get one round of finals at the end of each 2-month block and we have to get a 75 or higher in each domain of exams to pass. To hear that a 75 is considered an A or B at other schools is shocking to me.

 

[MightyMoose]

No, you take a P/F school so you're not cutting the throats of your peers and they don't do the same thing back to you. A lot of current med students I've talked to and my brother say that the atmosphere in a P/F school is much different than a school that ranks by letter grades; everybody's friendlier and helps each other out.

This is what I have heard as well. I'm pretty sure the three schools I interviewed at are H/P/F for years 1 and 2 (electives are P/F at one of the schools, I think). I know the school I'm most likely matriculating at is H/P/F and the honors are based on grades, not percent of the class, and are never curved upwards, but sometimes downwards (92 is typically honors, but it may bump down to 90 depending on the class average). Potentially the entire class could get honors. What I bolded above has been emphasized to me at each of the three schools, and I am looking forward to the supposed lack of gunnerism. 👍

I'm not dissing H/P/F, this is what my state school does and everyone there seems to love the fact that a 70 is a P, but, unfortunately, so is an 89.9.

At any rate, my beef was with the idea that you should choose a P/F school so that you don't have to work as hard, which is clearly what the OP was conveying in his/her post. I don't doubt for a minute that P/F would relieve some stress and some of the elements of competition, but I don't think it should be looked at as a way to be able to get by doing less. That's all I'm saying.

 

[jbz24]

As someone who attended a true P/F school for the first two years, I can say for certain that it was beneficial. Grades just add another level of stress that really are not necessary in medical school. Everyone puts in a lot of work regardless of grades, so why add extra stress?

I absolutely agree with the OP that if choosing between two similar schools, one should opt for the P/F one. And I'm not talking about H/P/F or H/HP/P/F, those are still grades. Make sure it's true P/F. The one question you can ask to make sure it's a true P/F school is to ask if the school has junior AOA. If there is no junior AOA, it's unlikely there will be internal ranking.

I'm surprised how many pre-meds feel grades during the first two years are important. Who would voluntarily elect to add more stress to an already stressful life?