A warning to all my North American friends considering UK & Ireland..

[leorl]

Blitz2006, I agree. It is very easy to become jaded for quite a few reasons when you go over for training, and people definitely need to not have glasses on that are too rose-colored. For an FMG, the "safest" route is on paper, going to Carib/DO schools. But imho, despite offering some educational advantages, that route does not automatically push their students above what Irish students are able to achieve. For anyone going to Irish school, you will be living outside your security zone for at least 4-5 years, but all FMGs including Caribbean will be in this same insecurity zone, and all DOs who are hoping for allopathic matches will have some overlap into the insecurity zone.

Like Blitz said, Your education isn't going to be handed to you on a platter, as per other schools that tailor towards a US education. The number one reason I saw my colleagues become cynical, jaded and disheartened was because of that very fact. It's been said on these boards countless times and everyone knows it in the back of their minds, but reality doesn't hit until you get there. So I really encourage people to make plans for this before they go, have a somewhat solid study plan, have a timeline in mind with reasonable goals for you to reach so you can prepare for this as best you can.

There's several ways to counteract becoming jaded and staying positive, which I can start in a new thread. But there are several reasons why I value my Irish education and am very happy I didn't go Caribbean/DO. The "safest" route is not necessarily the most desirable. Again, my situation is a bit unique and not a pathway that everyone will do.

1) If you do it right, you can live a very balanced "healthy" life during med school there where your entire life does not have to be medicine-oriented and you're not surrounded only by medicine people. I have to admit I was not the best student and did not spend that much time studying, but this is where efficiency and productivity comes in. I spent the majority of my med school life training > 30 hours a week as a rower. I fit in some research time, and was on the committees of a few clubs including captaining the boat club, and went to quite a fair few mad parties. The combo of studying, rowing at a high level and being able to enjoy myself is something I never would have been able to do if I stayed US, went Carib or DO.

2) I was able to make close life-long friendships with amazing people there, mainly through sport, that I would never have been able to make anywhere else. I'm lucky to be able to count world champions, Olympians, Fulbright scholars etc. in my close circle of friends and I don't think I would have met the same diversity or "caliber" of people had I gone elsewhere. This turned out to be a very important factor in my happiness there, as the stress of finals / USMLEs/ matching can make being around other medical students an overwhelmingly negative experience. Both my Irish medical and my non-medical friends were my escape route.

3) Opportunity to travel, goes without saying.

4) On my electives and sub-i's, I found I had superiors who really placed value on my Irish education. I cannot say the same occurs with my other FMG/DO colleagues. Now that I'm on the other side, I definitely do not see them having a clinical advantage over Irish students.

5) If for some reason you do not match how you want to, there is potential for a fall-back plan (ie. staying in IRL for internship). However, I could write a whole thread on this subject alone and would encourage people not to rely on this one too heavily.

The list goes on, but these "life-factors" are what push me to continue saying that if you are choosing an IMG route, not staying on the "tailored" Carib/DO path can be very rewarding. You need to be open-minded but disciplined and independent when you go abroad. If you're the kind of person who needs some sort of rigidity or regular assessments/practice opportunities given to you, then IRL may not be the right place. But imho, there's tons of resources out there for you to be able to get what you need whether it's practice exams or oral materials to practice with friends. You have to choose: do you want to be an IMG with the "easiest" path back, knowing that you may not be placed higher within the FMG pool vs. do you want to work harder for your opportunies and take a little bit more risk but have a potentially more rewarding life-experience?

Bottom line: Don't go over expecting things to be done for you. Expect to make your education work for you and when you do this, you'll find that opportunities open up for you. Surround yourself with people who can help you maintain a positive mindset.

Man, I'm getting long-winded.

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[druggeek]

Yep, I can agree with this.

Every year Psych has tons of spots 2nd round.

Here are some facts:

In 2011, Western has 6 total spots (2 IMG, 4 CMG), only 1/6 filled in 1st round. So the other 5 filled in 2nd round with IMGs.

In 2012, this past match, Newfoundland has 7 Psych spots (5 CMG, 2 IMG), only 1 IMG spot filled, there are now 6 Open Psych spots available in 2nd round....

Although I disagree with the pay, Psych as a median is >>> FM . And remember, psych has much less overhead costs (average FM overhead is 40%, Psych is 20%).

But yes, if you're a good businessman and want to work in a smalltown, than FM trumps Psych. True stories, Family physicians in Timmins earn over 450K, and my friend said on his interview he met a FM doc that makes 750K in Dauphin, Manitoba.

But in Toronto/GTA, average FM makes 200K.

Yes, though that 200k figure is a bit outdated and a couple sources show it's more in the mid 200s now. But there are a significant number of FMs making >400k/year in toronto/gta. It's simple math, you just need to see 35-40 patients a day.

 

[Blitz2006]

Yes, though that 200k figure is a bit outdated and a couple sources show it's more in the mid 200s now. But there are a significant number of FMs making >400k/year in toronto/gta. It's simple math, you just need to see 35-40 patients a day.

Right, I'm looking at the average.

I have the offiical 2009-2010 OMA pay statistics, and it says in Ontario:

Median: 208K
90th percentile: 447K
95th: 535K

So yeah, Im sure there are some family docs in GTA hitting 400K, but I spent 6 weeks doing an elective in TO, and the consensus was that family docs made around 200K (in the urban parts of TO, like yonge/eg, yonge/bloor, Dundas/Spadina, North York, Etobicoke).

I hear if you head out to places like Halton Hills or Newmarket, pay escalates...

But I'll be honest, I'm no expert in GP pay in Ontario, you probably know more than I do.

And I have to admit, I was wrong about Psych> FM.

Median for Psych in Ontario:

191K

tMy apologies. But with overhead fees being double in FM, I'm going to salvage my argument and say the Median pay of Psychiatrists > FM 😛

 

[druggeek]

Right, I'm looking at the average.

I have the offiical 2009-2010 OMA pay statistics, and it says in Ontario:

Median: 208K
90th percentile: 447K
95th: 535K

So yeah, Im sure there are some family docs in GTA hitting 400K, but I spent 6 weeks doing an elective in TO, and the consensus was that family docs made around 200K (in the urban parts of TO, like yonge/eg, yonge/bloor, Dundas/Spadina, North York, Etobicoke).

I hear if you head out to places like Halton Hills or Newmarket, pay escalates...

But I'll be honest, I'm no expert in GP pay in Ontario, you probably know more than I do.

And I have to admit, I was wrong about Psych> FM.

Median for Psych in Ontario:

191K

tMy apologies. But with overhead fees being double in FM, I'm going to salvage my argument and say the Median pay of Psychiatrists > FM 😛

One thing to keep in mind is that making money in family medicine comes down to how much you want/how good you are and your business skills. If you have the ability to see 35-40 patients a day while working 40-45 hours a week... then you'll make tons. But most doctors dont have that ability and if the do that, they'll sacrifice patient care.

Average/median incomes dont always give you the best idea as people have different skills, especially in a diverse field like family medicine.

 

[mathis]

Hi all!

I've been considering Ireland for some time but I have decided not to attend. I spoke to a few residency program directors in Chicago (my dad is an MD and knows people, well I didn't speak to the residency directors but my dad did).

Evidently, IMGs typically only get residencies that US graduates don't want. Also, DO graduates are not really discriminated against except when it comes to surgery, and even there its only a few programs that tend to avoid DOs (they also avoid graduates of certain MD schools too).

The people my dad spoke to expected it to become increasingly difficult for IMGs to get residencies in a few years. However, one director told "don't expect there to be a shortage overnight". In other words, 4 years from now there shouldn't be a huge problem getting residencies.

The common theme was "go to medical school in the country that you want to practice medicine in". Which loosely translates into 'go to medical school in the country that you can practice medicine in'.

As a US citizen I'm only eligible to do a residency there. Obviously there are stories of people getting internships in Ireland or the United Kingdom after graduation but those tend to be rare cases. There exists the possibility of spending 155,000 € and getting a degree that you can't use. Even as a US citizen its a big risk to take since the match rate for IMGs is only about 50%, give or take depending on the year.

One of my dad's colleagues has a son attending Flinders University in South Australia. He said that Australia is a much better option than Ireland because there is potential for graduates to remain in Australia upon graduation, so much that all the foreign students that graduated from Australian medical schools last year and applied for an internship got one. That possibility is almost nonexistent in Ireland. Even if the Australian enrollment increases in future years odds are that at least 50% of foreign grads in Australia will be able to do an internship. Which is a lot better than the 0-5% chance that Ireland offers.

Do you want to go to school in Ireland and pay 155,000 € for what could become an essentially worthless degree (if you don't get postgraduate training)?

There are some brave Canadians out there. Obviously you all know that 100% of you won't match back to Canada. You're okay with spending all that money to go to medical school in a country you can't practice in and then apply to the US for residency where you'll have to deal with visas, and the possibility of getting rejected for a visa? Like I said, very brave. Hats off you. I wish I had your courage.

I'll be applying to Australia this year and DO schools.

That's my 2 cents. Well maybe 20 cents.

 

[Blitz2006]

you're the most intelligent pre-med student I've come across in many years.

Well done, and good luck with your applications.

 

[jf1987]

He said that Australia is a much better option than Ireland because there is potential for graduates to remain in Australia upon graduation, so much that all the foreign students that graduated from Australian medical schools last year and applied for an internship got one.

Not completely true....

See this: http://www.mumus.org/downloads/20100923 Internship Fact Sheet.pdf

 

[mathis]

Not completely true....

See this: http://www.mumus.org/downloads/20100923%20Internship%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

Even if what my dad was told isn't 100% accurate it still seems like there is a very good chance for foreign medical graduates to remain in Australia after graduation. As I pointed out earlier, it is not a realistic possibility with Ireland.

50% chance of an internship in Australia + 50% chance of residency in US > 50% chance of residency in America + 0-5% chance of internship in Ireland...

For the same money Australia just makes a lot more sense.

Besides, Australian grads likely have every bit as good of a chance at matching back to the US as Irish grads, but in the event that you don't match back at least the door is open to stay in Australia which is an important distinction to make, not even the Caribbean offers that.

EDIT:

Just did some quick research. Evidently, certain states are increasing their medical school enrollment faster than others. Odds of getting an internship are better if you're in one of the states that isn't drastically increasing medical student enrollment (like S. Australia).

 

[jf1987]

Just did some quick research. Evidently, certain states are increasing their medical school enrollment faster than others. Odds of getting an internship are better if you're in one of the states that isn't drastically increasing medical student enrollment (like S. Australia).

Correct, I applied to Flinders and ANU exclusively for this reason. I accepted my spot to UCC but am still waiting to see if I get interview invites to either of those schools in the coming months.

 

[leorl]

For the most part accurate, but it's not exactly as black and white. The job market in IRL for staying after graduation is cyclical. A few years ago when I graduated, the job market was really terrible. A large number of non-EU graduates (I think over 16 in my class alone) did not get an intern post in IRL, and this created problems. Four of us received intern spots. Some of my NA classmates did go overseas (Oz, Nz, UK) then for internship. This poor showing in effect "scared" many non-EUs in the subsequent graduating class so that nearly none of them stayed, and then this actually created a shortage of interns for the following year. It's all about supply and demand. In this current year, there are still spots for non-EUs to become interns. Although trends tend not to change abruptly, in the smaller countries, they can. Right now at this very moment, it may be easier for a non-Aussie citizen to stay for residency. This was not always and will not always be the case. Just telling you so you can take that kind of advice with a grain of salt.

A caveat with either country (and any country you may not be a citizen in): Getting an intern spot is one thing. Advancing to consultant/attending level is another thing. There are citizenship issues (read: subtle or not-so-subtle race / gender issues and even if you are Caucasian there is anti-Americanism which exists (not so much anti-Canadianism)) that can arise for those who choose to stay long-term. In my opinion, if you can get an intern spot but are delayed in achieving higher goals (ie. spend more time being a scut monkey instead of in a training scheme), then...that is not really a good option. The other thing is the obvious longer length of "residency" training that those systems require.

I heavily considered Oz when I applied, but decided that its distance was not worth it. It is slightly less expensive than IRL but when you consider travel for electives/interviews, expense in the big cities (Perth is a bit less expensive than Sydney / Melbourne, but I only wanted Melbourne) and the relative newness of some of the programs (graduate entry at Melbourne would have been brand new when I considered applying) I figured it was more effort than I was willing to put in. The Oz programs produce excellent and successful physicians, but I believe the same about the Irish schools.

There is no such thing as a wasted or useless MD degree. If things don't go right for you, there may be delay and flexibility required, but you will make it work.

Hi all!


As a US citizen I'm only eligible to do a residency there. Obviously there are stories of people getting internships in Ireland or the United Kingdom after graduation but those tend to be rare cases. There exists the possibility of spending 155,000 € and getting a degree that you can't use. Even as a US citizen its a big risk to take since the match rate for IMGs is only about 50%, give or take depending on the year.

One of my dad's colleagues has a son attending Flinders University in South Australia. He said that Australia is a much better option than Ireland because there is potential for graduates to remain in Australia upon graduation, so much that all the foreign students that graduated from Australian medical schools last year and applied for an internship got one. That possibility is almost nonexistent in Ireland. Even if the Australian enrollment increases in future years odds are that at least 50% of foreign grads in Australia will be able to do an internship. Which is a lot better than the 0-5% chance that Ireland offers.


There are some brave Canadians out there. Obviously you all know that 100% of you won't match back to Canada. You're okay with spending all that money to go to medical school in a country you can't practice in and then apply to the US for residency where you'll have to deal with visas, and the possibility of getting rejected for a visa? Like I said, very brave. Hats off you. I wish I had your courage.

I'll be applying to Australia this year and DO schools.

That's my 2 cents. Well maybe 20 cents.

 

[mathis]

For the most part accurate, but it's not exactly as black and white. The job market in IRL for staying after graduation is cyclical. A few years ago when I graduated, the job market was really terrible. A large number of non-EU graduates (I think over 16 in my class alone) did not get an intern post in IRL, and this created problems. Four of us received intern spots. Some of my NA classmates did go overseas (Oz, Nz, UK) then for internship. This poor showing in effect "scared" many non-EUs in the subsequent graduating class so that nearly none of them stayed, and then this actually created a shortage of interns for the following year. It's all about supply and demand. In this current year, there are still spots for non-EUs to become interns. Although trends tend not to change abruptly, in the smaller countries, they can. Right now at this very moment, it may be easier for a non-Aussie citizen to stay for residency. This was not always and will not always be the case. Just telling you so you can take that kind of advice with a grain of salt.

A caveat with either country (and any country you may not be a citizen in): Getting an intern spot is one thing. Advancing to consultant/attending level is another thing. There are citizenship issues (read: subtle or not-so-subtle race / gender issues and even if you are Caucasian there is anti-Americanism which exists (not so much anti-Canadianism)) that can arise for those who choose to stay long-term. In my opinion, if you can get an intern spot but are delayed in achieving higher goals (ie. spend more time being a scut monkey instead of in a training scheme), then...that is not really a good option. The other thing is the obvious longer length of "residency" training that those systems require.

I heavily considered Oz when I applied, but decided that its distance was not worth it. It is slightly less expensive than IRL but when you consider travel for electives/interviews, expense in the big cities (Perth is a bit less expensive than Sydney / Melbourne, but I only wanted Melbourne) and the relative newness of some of the programs (graduate entry at Melbourne would have been brand new when I considered applying) I figured it was more effort than I was willing to put in. The Oz programs produce excellent and successful physicians, but I believe the same about the Irish schools.

There is no such thing as a wasted or useless MD degree. If things don't go right for you, there may be delay and flexibility required, but you will make it work.

Yeah.

All things considered I think Australia is a far better choice than Ireland, not due to quality of education, but simply because it offers a plan B (or C or D) when it comes to postgraduate training as an IMG. It's an odds game really. I don't see why people are so eager to go to Ireland when the cost is the same as Australia and less options are offered as a postgrad IMG.

It also seems like Australian med schools may be slightly easier to get into than Ireland. I see a lot of people reporting getting into places like USyd with 27, 28, 29, 30 MCAT scores. You don't see that a whole lot with Ireland.

 

[leorl]

I think probably the distance thing is why more people don't go to Oz. It can be hard to arrange electives and exam-taking on an already limited time schedule from there. But having said that, there are obviously people who do it. So if location isn't much of an issue for you, Oz is an awesome country. I love going down there.

 

[jf1987]

It also seems like Australian med schools may be slightly easier to get into than Ireland. I see a lot of people reporting getting into places like USyd with 27, 28, 29, 30 MCAT scores. You don't see that a whole lot with Ireland.

This turned me off of Aus schools. Some of them have what appear to be rather low standards. Sorry if that sounded harsh but I have seen people on these boards with 3.0-3.3 and 26 mcats getting into these Australian schools.

 

[Setto]

Even if what my dad was told isn't 100% accurate it still seems like there is a very good chance for foreign medical graduates to remain in Australia after graduation. As I pointed out earlier, it is not a realistic possibility with Ireland.

50% chance of an internship in Australia + 50% chance of residency in US > 50% chance of residency in America + 0-5% chance of internship in Ireland...

For the same money Australia just makes a lot more sense.

Besides, Australian grads likely have every bit as good of a chance at matching back to the US as Irish grads, but in the event that you don't match back at least the door is open to stay in Australia which is an important distinction to make, not even the Caribbean offers that.

EDIT:

Just did some quick research. Evidently, certain states are increasing their medical school enrollment faster than others. Odds of getting an internship are better if you're in one of the states that isn't drastically increasing medical student enrollment (like S. Australia).

I was under the impression that Oz res positions were incredibly low. I heard that new MDs were leaving due to lack of space. But like the rest of the internet, it's very tough to siphon through the BS.

What's the situation for N.A or EU grads who want to do their residency in AUS?

 

[jf1987]

I was under the impression that Oz res positions were incredibly low. I heard that new MDs were leaving due to lack of space. But like the rest of the internet, it's very tough to siphon through the BS.

What's the situation for N.A or EU grads who want to do their residency in AUS?

I posted this above:

http://www.mumus.org/downloads/20100923 Internship Fact Sheet.pdf

My understanding is that Aus grads can also look for intern spots in NZ, Singapore and Malaysia. But I am not an expert on this. Also, Australia is swimming is cash right now so they might add more intern spots. Basically, as that pdf suggests its hard to know what is down the road in Aus. However the government appears concerned about it and seems uninterested in having a large number of graduates of their medical schools without intern spots or residencies.

 

[mathis]

I was under the impression that Oz res positions were incredibly low. I heard that new MDs were leaving due to lack of space. But like the rest of the internet, it's very tough to siphon through the BS.

What's the situation for N.A or EU grads who want to do their residency in AUS?

It's probably possible. Especially if you graduate sooner (this year or next year) rather than later (i.e. 4-5 years from now as enrollment is up at Australian schools whose graduates will get first dibs).

If you're a Canadian citizen I wouldn't recommend going to medical school in the UK and then trying to apply for an Australian internship (first year of Australian "residency") if you aren't either a UK/EU citizen or Australian citizen.

You should only plan on doing postgraduate training (residency) in either A) a country you're legally able to live in, or B) in the country where the medical school is located (providing they allow for internationals to remain for postgraduate training).

You should never study medicine in a country that you're not a citizen of and then plan on doing your postgraduate training in another country that you're not a citizen of. You would be setting yourself up for disappointment if you did that, and an expensive one at that. example: a Mexican citizen should not study medicine in the United Kingdom and then expect to get a residency in the United States after graduation.

 

[jf1987]

It's probably possible. Especially if you graduate sooner (this year or next year) rather than later (i.e. 4-5 years from now as enrollment is up at Australian schools whose graduates will get first dibs).

If you're a Canadian citizen I wouldn't recommend going to medical school in the UK and then trying to apply for an Australian internship (first year of Australian "residency") if you aren't either a UK/EU citizen or Australian citizen.

You should only plan on doing postgraduate training (residency) in either A) a country you're legally able to live in, or B) in the country where the medical school is located (providing they allow for internationals to remain for postgraduate training).

You should never study medicine in a country that you're not a citizen of and then plan on doing your postgraduate training in another country that you're not a citizen of. You would be setting yourself up for disappointment if you did that, and an expensive one at that. example: a Mexican citizen should not study medicine in the United Kingdom and then expect to get a residency in the United States after graduation.

Wasn't sure if he meant N.A. or EU citizens who graduated in Aus or elsewhere. Figured that it would be unlikely for someone who graduated elsewhere and is a citizen of another country to do a residency in Aus.

 

[druggeek]

Hi all!

I've been considering Ireland for some time but I have decided not to attend. I spoke to a few residency program directors in Chicago (my dad is an MD and knows people, well I didn't speak to the residency directors but my dad did).

Evidently, IMGs typically only get residencies that US graduates don't want. Also, DO graduates are not really discriminated against except when it comes to surgery, and even there its only a few programs that tend to avoid DOs (they also avoid graduates of certain MD schools too).

The people my dad spoke to expected it to become increasingly difficult for IMGs to get residencies in a few years. However, one director told "don't expect there to be a shortage overnight". In other words, 4 years from now there shouldn't be a huge problem getting residencies.

The common theme was "go to medical school in the country that you want to practice medicine in". Which loosely translates into 'go to medical school in the country that you can practice medicine in'.

As a US citizen I'm only eligible to do a residency there. Obviously there are stories of people getting internships in Ireland or the United Kingdom after graduation but those tend to be rare cases. There exists the possibility of spending 155,000 € and getting a degree that you can't use. Even as a US citizen its a big risk to take since the match rate for IMGs is only about 50%, give or take depending on the year.

One of my dad's colleagues has a son attending Flinders University in South Australia. He said that Australia is a much better option than Ireland because there is potential for graduates to remain in Australia upon graduation, so much that all the foreign students that graduated from Australian medical schools last year and applied for an internship got one. That possibility is almost nonexistent in Ireland. Even if the Australian enrollment increases in future years odds are that at least 50% of foreign grads in Australia will be able to do an internship. Which is a lot better than the 0-5% chance that Ireland offers.

Do you want to go to school in Ireland and pay 155,000 € for what could become an essentially worthless degree (if you don't get postgraduate training)?

There are some brave Canadians out there. Obviously you all know that 100% of you won't match back to Canada. You're okay with spending all that money to go to medical school in a country you can't practice in and then apply to the US for residency where you'll have to deal with visas, and the possibility of getting rejected for a visa? Like I said, very brave. Hats off you. I wish I had your courage.

I'll be applying to Australia this year and DO schools.

That's my 2 cents. Well maybe 20 cents.

perfectly said. There are lots of malignant residencies out there in fields that are undesired and... also in undesirable locations. these are the residencies left over for many IMGs and in a few years they will be the ONLY option for IMGs (which will be the graduation time of current pre meds).

 

[BigPizza]

To high school students:

Stay in NA.. you will not regret this.

 

[DoctaS]

To high school students:

Stay in NA.. you will not regret this.

Yeah you will. Answer this, what happens when your done your BSe and you don't get in medical school? You have to go with the IMG route anyway, so why not right now? Basically its a risk staying here and a risk going abroad. You have to take risks if you want to be successful in life.

 

[S0B]

To high school students:

Stay in NA.. you will not regret this.

Care to clarify your reasons?

If you can back up your response with evidence, a logical argument or any personal experiences from this. I am currently a high school student and I am fully aware of the risks and challenges of taking the IMG route.

 

[BigPizza]

...

 

[BigPizza]

.

 

[Alexander III]

chances of getting into medical school in Ontario. 953spots / 17261 applicants = 5.5%. If you are from the GTA your chances are closer to 4.5% because Western takes over 50% SWOMEN applicants and Northern takes around 94% from rural/northern Ontario. If your an undergrad student its even harder because a ton of those medical school spots go to students with a completed masters degree or PhD. If you don't believe me, the average age of student's in Northern Ontario School of Medicine was 25-26yrs old over the last 2 years ( http://www.nosm.ca/classprofiles/ ).

For Ontario School stats: http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/omsas/rc_omsas_e.pdf

Match rate for this years UCD class to NA = 83.3% in the first round, with the 5 remaining unmatched candidates going into second round. According to other forum posts, RCSI had 10 candidates go unmatched in 2011 (percent is probably similar to this year UCD because RCSIs graduating class is much larger, 65GEP in RCSI compared to around 40GEP at UCD plus the 5 and 6 year programs at both schools). RCSI also had everyone! match in 2010. Not sure about UCD. Reference: SDN student reports, not as legit as the above info but, I can't see any reason why a current student would lie about match rates.

The states are a lot different mainly because there are a lot more medical schools and students have a much higher chance of getting in to schools in their own state. Applying to the states from Canada also increases your chances but, not by much since the schools that do take international students only take a handful each year (0-10 out of 200+ spots for most of them) and you can bet that those accepted applicants have a very strong application.

 

[Blitz2006]

To high school students:

Stay in NA.. you will not regret this.

I agree with BigPizza 150%.

Why?

1) Having a BSc will help you getting residency even if you have to become an IMG. Trust me, you'll only understand when you apply for ERAS/CaRMs residency and see that there are blank sections on the applications for 'degrees', 'research work', 'extracurriculars', etc. The research and volunteer work you can potentially do in your 4 years of BSc summers helps big time with residency application. Research/publications is huge for competitve residencies. In fact, I think for Canada/U.S, its only FM that doesn't really look highly upon research, everything else does....In fact, I personally kind of regret not staying in Canada and doing a MSc, def would help now for surgical residencies to have a few more publications on my CV....

And from what I've seen here, the few guys who came straight out of highschool and want something 'competitive', ie. radiology or something surgical, end ujp buring 2-3 years after medical school doing research jobs...so it really evens out at the end. Might as well bang out a N.American BSc and get that same reseach experience...right?

2) Program Directors in North America want residents that are on par with North American medical students, and this does not mean only academically, but also with regards to maturity. Average North American starting residency is 28 years old. You think they will trust a 23 year old with their patients in the ICU? They look at applicants holistically for residency, its not purely USMLE scores.

3) Why the rush? BSc was probably the most fun 4 years of my life. College life in Canada/U.S is a once in a lifetime experience, and trust me, univ life here in the UK is not the same at all. No keggers, no college house parties. In the UK, 20 year olds here are on ward rounds at 8am, whereas in BSc as a 20 year old in N.A you'll be partying it up 2x/week even as a pre-med...

Also, you make some great life-long friends in college, and it helps even down the road. For my electives this summer, I'll be crashing at friends all over Canada that I did my BSc with.

When you're 47 years old, saving 2-3 years won't make a difference. You're gonna be working for over 40 years of your life anyways, might as well enjoy student life while you can.

There's more to life than a MD. Enjoy it.

Just my opinion,

P.S. My reasons are a generalization, I'm not saying that you have to have publications to get a good residency, or that a 23 year old can't get into a radiology residency. But overall...

 

[Alexander III]

I agree with BigPizza 150%.

Why?

1) Having a BSc will help you getting residency even if you have to become an IMG. Trust me, you'll only understand when you apply for ERAS/CaRMs residency and see that there are blank sections on the applications for 'degrees', 'research work', 'extracurriculars', etc. The research and volunteer work you can potentially do in your 4 years of BSc summers helps big time with residency application. Research/publications is huge for competitve residencies. In fact, I think for Canada/U.S, its only FM that doesn't really look highly upon research, everything else does....In fact, I personally kind of regret not saying in Canada and doing a MSc, def would help now for surgical residencies to have a few more publications on my CV....

2) Program Directors in North America want residents that are on par with North American medical students, and this does not mean only academically, but also with regards to maturity. Average North American starting residency is 28 years old. You think they will trust a 23 year old with their patients in the ICU? They look at applicants holistically for residency, its not purely USMLE scores.

3) Why the rush? BSc was probably the most fun 4 years of my life. College life in Canada/U.S is a once in a lifetime experience, and trust me, univ life here in the UK is not the same at all. No keggers, no college house parties. In the UK, 20 year olds here are on ward rounds at 8am, whereas in BSc as a 20 year old in N.A you'll be partying it up 2x/week even as a pre-med...

Also, you make some great life-long friends in college, and it helps even down the road. For my electives this summer, I'll be crashing at friends all over Canada that I did my BSc with.

When you're 47 years old, saving 2-3 years won't make a difference. You're gonna be working for over 40 years of your life anyways, might as well enjoy student life while you can.

There's more to life than a MD. Enjoy it.

Just my opinion,

P.S. My reasons are a generalization, I'm not saying that you have to have publications to get a good residency, or that a 23 year old can't get into a radiology residency. But overall...

+1. I do support the IMG route but, not so much out of high school. A bachelors degree is great for building up a solid resume and its also a lot of fun. I also can't image doing a med school curriculum out of high school when I was 17 either.

 

[jf1987]

To sum things up.....

Not directed towards anyone in particular.

 

[Alexander III]

To sum things up.....

Not directed towards anyone in particular.

I just think a lot of people grossly underestimate the difficulty of becoming a practicing MD in Canada. Its a highly competitive field which can be seen with the 5.5% chances of getting into an Ontario medical school (the first step if you don't go FMG route!). No one said this process is easy or will guarantee you a job or residency in the specialty and location of your choice regardless of which school you get into. If your are not willing to work very hard and put in a lot of effort into an education in which you are not guaranteed admission to medical school, admission to your ideal residency program and job placement in city of your choice then you should probably pick a different profession.

 

[Blitz2006]

To sum things up.....

Not directed towards anyone in particular.

I'm assuming you're referring to Alexander III because of his excessive use of stats? If not, forgive me.

But I think Alex III is spot on with his stats anaylsis, and I wish more IMGs were like him. Studying medicine abroad, spending 250K is a big deal. So this type of research/knowledge is needed, and whether you like it or not, stats help put reality in check.

 

[jf1987]

It wasn't directed at Alexander III. It was directed at everyone including myself. I just felt like this was going on too long, occasionally becoming overly heated and negative. But, that is just my opinion. The information and various perspectives are here for everyone to see which is great. It is good that people are aware of the risks and like myself, I am sure many of those who have read this thread will take the steps needed to make themselves as competitive as possible. I also greatly appreciate the research and information that everyone has shared. Anxiety is only useful until it reaches a certain limit. We have graduates on here, all of whom who obtained residencies, who range in view from great optimism to great pessimism. Given the information available, it seems likely that one of the primary determinants of one's enthusiasm for going to Ireland is psychological. Cheers.

 

[druggeek]

Yeah you will. Answer this, what happens when your done your BSe and you don't get in medical school? You have to go with the IMG route anyway, so why not right now? Basically its a risk staying here and a risk going abroad. You have to take risks if you want to be successful in life.

If you cant get in a school in the US where lower-tier MD schools/DO schools are an option.... you're not good enough to be a doctor. period.

 

[druggeek]

chances of getting into medical school in Ontario. 953spots / 17261 applicants = 5.5%. If you are from the GTA your chances are closer to 4.5% because Western takes over 50% SWOMEN applicants and Northern takes around 94% from rural/northern Ontario. If your an undergrad student its even harder because a ton of those medical school spots go to students with a completed masters degree or PhD. If you don't believe me, the average age of student's in Northern Ontario School of Medicine was 25-26yrs old over the last 2 years ( http://www.nosm.ca/classprofiles/ ).

For Ontario School stats: http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/omsas/rc_omsas_e.pdf

Match rate for this years UCD class to NA = 83.3% in the first round, with the 5 remaining unmatched candidates going into second round. According to other forum posts, RCSI had 10 candidates go unmatched in 2011 (percent is probably similar to this year UCD because RCSIs graduating class is much larger, 65GEP in RCSI compared to around 40GEP at UCD plus the 5 and 6 year programs at both schools). RCSI also had everyone! match in 2010. Not sure about UCD. Reference: SDN student reports, not as legit as the above info but, I can't see any reason why a current student would lie about match rates.

The states are a lot different mainly because there are a lot more medical schools and students have a much higher chance of getting in to schools in their own state. Applying to the states from Canada also increases your chances but, not by much since the schools that do take international students only take a handful each year (0-10 out of 200+ spots for most of them) and you can bet that those accepted applicants have a very strong application.

The overall average age of acceptance has been 23 for a while... This is obviously offset by those who are 30+ and applying, so there's tons of undergrads getting in (the large majority).
Statistics also dont give the best idea because you have people who:

1) dont apply to every school they can
2) have weak ECs
3) have poor social skills
4) have a <3.7 gpa
5) have a crappy mcat
6) dont meet cut offs but apply anyway
7) have crappy ref letters, essay, PS

For people who have above average in every department and apply everywhere, your odds are probably more like 60-70%.

 

[druggeek]

+1. I do support the IMG route but, not so much out of high school. A bachelors degree is great for building up a solid resume and its also a lot of fun. I also can't image doing a med school curriculum out of high school when I was 17 either.

Many people come from high school and are quickly weeded out in european countries. This same thing happens in the carribean (though to both high schoolers and those with undergrads).

I just think a lot of people grossly underestimate the difficulty of becoming a practicing MD in Canada. Its a highly competitive field which can be seen with the 5.5% chances of getting into an Ontario medical school (the first step if you don't go FMG route!). No one said this process is easy or will guarantee you a job or residency in the specialty and location of your choice regardless of which school you get into. If your are not willing to work very hard and put in a lot of effort into an education in which you are not guaranteed admission to medical school, admission to your ideal residency program and job placement in city of your choice then you should probably pick a different profession.

I've read that it's more like 10% if you're from toronto/gta. Again those factors states are important to remember.

 

[Blitz2006]

The overall average age of acceptance has been 23 for a while... This is obviously offset by those who are 30+ and applying, so there's tons of undergrads getting in (the large majority).
Statistics also dont give the best idea because you have people who:

1) dont apply to every school they can
2) have weak ECs
3) have poor social skills
4) have a <3.7 gpa
5) have a crappy mcat
6) dont meet cut offs but apply anyway
7) have crappy ref letters, essay, PS

For people who have above average in every department and apply everywhere, your odds are probably more like 60-70%.

+1.

To be fair, getting into medical school in Ontario/Canada is not that hard, IF you play the game properly.

I'll use myself and my friend from highschool as an example.

Myself:

Went to a 'top-rated' university in ontario (which I now think is all baloney, but I was a naive high school student), and did my BSc in a competitive, pre-med program that was filled with 200 other hopefully doctors. So obviously, getting that 3.7 was quite tough.
I did the MCAT 2x, got 31 (but needed a 10 in VR for Queen's/Western), my GPA was around 3.75 (but for Mac and Ottawa in my year, needed around 3.85 or something).
I did 2 summers of research, presented abstracts, president of a couple univ organizations, volunteered in south america, blah blah blah, the usual pre-med stuff.

My Friend:

Went to a 'comprehensive' university (according to Macleans), did a BA in something he enjoyed. Took the science pre-reqs (Orgo, Bio, etc.) on the side as correspondence courses or something. Never wrote the MCAT. Partied it up during the year, travelled in his summers off (Europe and Asia). Banged out a 3.9 or something. Applied to Northern, Ottawa and Mac (schools that didn't require MCAT 5 years ago, dunno about now).
He got 2 interviews (Mac and Ottawa), got accepted into Ottawa meds.

We both graduated highschool with roughly the same average, yet he got into meds in ontario and I didn't...

Don't get me wrong, my friend is a bright guy and deserves it, but I'm just saying its all about playing a game. Getting into med school basically requires super high GPA (the other stuff is easy to tack on, like volunteer work, sports, etc).

Looking back now, I wonder if going to a 'hard' school and taking courses like Molecular Genetics, Biochemistry, Immunology, etc. was worth it? I mean, I could have loaded up my GPA with courses like Organizational Behaviour, Greek Mythology, etc.

I dunno...

 

[druggeek]

+1.

To be fair, getting into medical school in Ontario/Canada is not that hard, IF you play the game properly.

I'll use myself and my friend from highschool as an example.

Myself:

Went to a 'top-rated' university in ontario (which I now think is all baloney, but I was a naive high school student), and did my BSc in a competitive, pre-med program that was filled with 200 other hopefully doctors. So obviously, getting that 3.7 was quite tough.
I did the MCAT 2x, got 31 (but needed a 10 in VR for Queen's/Western), my GPA was around 3.75 (but for Mac and Ottawa in my year, needed around 3.85 or something).
I did 2 summers of research, presented abstracts, president of a couple univ organizations, volunteered in south america, blah blah blah, the usual pre-med stuff.

My Friend:

Went to a 'comprehensive' university (according to Macleans), did a BA in something he enjoyed. Took the science pre-reqs (Orgo, Bio, etc.) on the side as correspondence courses or something. Never wrote the MCAT. Partied it up during the year, travelled in his summers off (Europe and Asia). Banged out a 3.9 or something. Applied to Northern, Ottawa and Mac (schools that didn't require MCAT 5 years ago, dunno about now).
He got 2 interviews (Mac and Ottawa), got accepted into Ottawa meds.

We both graduated highschool with roughly the same average, yet he got into meds in ontario and I didn't...

Don't get me wrong, my friend is a bright guy and deserves it, but I'm just saying its all about playing a game. Getting into med school basically requires super high GPA (the other stuff is easy to tack on, like volunteer work, sports, etc).

Looking back now, I wonder if going to a 'hard' school and taking courses like Molecular Genetics, Biochemistry, Immunology, etc. was worth it? I mean, I could have loaded up my GPA with courses like Organizational Behaviour, Greek Mythology, etc.

I dunno...

Pretty much made a perfect comparison. I think if someone's doing a science degree... scratching that whole "prestige/good uni" thing is a must first step. No school in Canada cares about your undergrad institution as long as it is accredited. Yet I remember in grade 12 everyone would be going crazy over whether they get into UofT st george or only the scarborough campus then people going crazy over queens/mac science programs, blah blah... like dude... youre getting into a program that's useless for getting an actual job. stop hyping it up so much.

Though ECs do count for a lot, especially showing long term involvement (someone who's been active in things throughout high school until 4th year undergrad vs. someone who freaked out and did volunteering in 3rd/4th year.

 

[MonsterCookie]

+1.

Looking back now, I wonder if going to a 'hard' school and taking courses like Molecular Genetics, Biochemistry, Immunology, etc. was worth it? I mean, I could have loaded up my GPA with courses like Organizational Behaviour, Greek Mythology, etc.

I dunno...

+1.

I also graduated from a relatively "difficult/competitive" undergraduate program within the sciences and I totally understand what you mean. I'm proud of my degree, completing a thesis and in going through a hellish four years; I learned SO much (both intellectually and practically) that I probably would not have in a different program. With that said, I'm not sure if it was such good planning on my part given that my underlying goal was to go to medical school, because getting high grades in my program was far from easy (although I'm sure there were some standout individuals who excelled more so than others). What hurts is that admissions officers do not look at your undergraduate degree, which overlooks the sheer amount of work and time we've put in to completing our degree.

So all in all, I guess I'm bittersweet...

My advice is: If your ultimate goal is medical school in Canada, pick a program that you know (or somehow predict) you'll do well on; while you might be really interested in a particular undergraduate program, a difficult/demanding program may work against you (i.e. hurt your GPA) later on during med school applications. Oh, and I guess rocking the MCAT wouldn't hurt either 😛

 

[Blitz2006]

Pretty much made a perfect comparison. I think if someone's doing a science degree... scratching that whole "prestige/good uni" thing is a must first step. No school in Canada cares about your undergrad institution as long as it is accredited. Yet I remember in grade 12 everyone would be going crazy over whether they get into UofT st george or only the scarborough campus then people going crazy over queens/mac science programs, blah blah... like dude... youre getting into a program that's useless for getting an actual job. stop hyping it up so much.

Though ECs do count for a lot, especially showing long term involvement (someone who's been active in things throughout high school until 4th year undergrad vs. someone who freaked out and did volunteering in 3rd/4th year.

Yep, agree with you 100%.

I got caught up in the hype in Gr.12, went for 'prestige'. FML. Now looking back, I could have got my BSc from any random school in Canada and it wouldn't have mattered. Med schools in Canada sure as hell don't give a damn where u got your degree, as long as you have 3.9.

and for ECs, sure they count a lot maybe, but if you don't have 3.8 or whatever, whats the point? And by going to an 'easier' school , doing an 'easier' degree, not only does your GPA shoot up, but you have more time to also do ECs! Win-Win...

And like MonsterCookie said, I had a wicked 4 years, and i also did a thesis, etc, great learning experience. But when all said and done, I played the game wrong. Thats why I give props to KillerT for opening up this thread, cause it shows ppl the real truth about IMGs...and that getting into residency is just another game (and this time I'm trying my best to play it...but again looking back, I think Carribean > UK/Ireland if you want to win the IMG game, but not gonna beat that path again)

 

[Blitz2006]

+1.

I also graduated from a relatively "difficult/competitive" undergraduate program within the sciences and I totally understand what you mean. I'm proud of my degree, completing a thesis and in going through a hellish four years; I learned SO much (both intellectually and practically) that I probably would not have in a different program. With that said, I'm not sure if it was such good planning on my part given that my underlying goal was to go to medical school, because getting high grades in my program was far from easy (although I'm sure there were some standout individuals who excelled more so than others). What hurts is that admissions officers do not look at your undergraduate degree, which overlooks the sheer amount of work and time we've put in to completing our degree.

So all in all, I guess I'm bittersweet...

My advice is: If your ultimate goal is medical school in Canada, pick a program that you know (or somehow predict) you'll do well on; while you might be really interested in a particular undergraduate program, a difficult/demanding program may work against you (i.e. hurt your GPA) later on during med school applications. Oh, and I guess rocking the MCAT wouldn't hurt either 😛

+1.

But at least if you go to an 'easy' school, even if you don't rock the MCAT, at least you have a chance for the Non-MCAT schools!

 

[Alexander III]

+1.

I also graduated from a relatively "difficult/competitive" undergraduate program within the sciences and I totally understand what you mean. I'm proud of my degree, completing a thesis and in going through a hellish four years; I learned SO much (both intellectually and practically) that I probably would not have in a different program. With that said, I'm not sure if it was such good planning on my part given that my underlying goal was to go to medical school, because getting high grades in my program was far from easy (although I'm sure there were some standout individuals who excelled more so than others). What hurts is that admissions officers do not look at your undergraduate degree, which overlooks the sheer amount of work and time we've put in to completing our degree.

So all in all, I guess I'm bittersweet...

My advice is: If your ultimate goal is medical school in Canada, pick a program that you know (or somehow predict) you'll do well on; while you might be really interested in a particular undergraduate program, a difficult/demanding program may work against you (i.e. hurt your GPA) later on during med school applications. Oh, and I guess rocking the MCAT wouldn't hurt either 😛

+1

yep if you see your undergrad simply as a prereq to medical school, its most certainly advisable to take courses and go to the school in which you can maximize your GPA. I find it weird that the medical schools have never really taken the type of degree/school into consideration especially the ones that don't take MCAT. It would be a simple matter of calculating GPAs differently by program/school.

 

[Medstart108]

I agree with BigPizza 150%.

Why?

1) Having a BSc will help you getting residency even if you have to become an IMG. Trust me, you'll only understand when you apply for ERAS/CaRMs residency and see that there are blank sections on the applications for 'degrees', 'research work', 'extracurriculars', etc. The research and volunteer work you can potentially do in your 4 years of BSc summers helps big time with residency application. Research/publications is huge for competitve residencies. In fact, I think for Canada/U.S, its only FM that doesn't really look highly upon research, everything else does....In fact, I personally kind of regret not staying in Canada and doing a MSc, def would help now for surgical residencies to have a few more publications on my CV....

And from what I've seen here, the few guys who came straight out of highschool and want something 'competitive', ie. radiology or something surgical, end ujp buring 2-3 years after medical school doing research jobs...so it really evens out at the end. Might as well bang out a N.American BSc and get that same reseach experience...right?

2) Program Directors in North America want residents that are on par with North American medical students, and this does not mean only academically, but also with regards to maturity. Average North American starting residency is 28 years old. You think they will trust a 23 year old with their patients in the ICU? They look at applicants holistically for residency, its not purely USMLE scores.

3) Why the rush? BSc was probably the most fun 4 years of my life. College life in Canada/U.S is a once in a lifetime experience, and trust me, univ life here in the UK is not the same at all. No keggers, no college house parties. In the UK, 20 year olds here are on ward rounds at 8am, whereas in BSc as a 20 year old in N.A you'll be partying it up 2x/week even as a pre-med...

Also, you make some great life-long friends in college, and it helps even down the road. For my electives this summer, I'll be crashing at friends all over Canada that I did my BSc with.

When you're 47 years old, saving 2-3 years won't make a difference. You're gonna be working for over 40 years of your life anyways, might as well enjoy student life while you can.

There's more to life than a MD. Enjoy it.

Just my opinion,

P.S. My reasons are a generalization, I'm not saying that you have to have publications to get a good residency, or that a 23 year old can't get into a radiology residency. But overall...

I read your post and it was very helpful.

 

[jf1987]

+1

yep if you see your undergrad simply as a prereq to medical school, its most certainly advisable to take courses and go to the school in which you can maximize your GPA. I find it weird that the medical schools have never really taken the type of degree/school into consideration especially the ones that don't take MCAT. It would be a simple matter of calculating GPAs differently by program/school.

How on earth would they come up with a standardized and fair way of adjusting GPA based on program and school?

But it is fairly absurd when my friend who got accepted to UBC had completed their first two years at a local college with all straight As, transferred to university where when we took a 3rd year science course together for which I tutored the person and did far better than them and also did a fair bit better on the mcat which we took at the same time.

My problem was that I decided on medicine rather late and ubc looks at cGPA primarily.

 

[mathis]

GPA shouldn't be used as an indicator of medical school success, because simply put, it isn't a good one.

GPAs not only vary from university to university but from professor to professor.

At my university there was one Organic Chemistry professor who "prepared you well for the MCAT" but asked obscure questions on exams that ultimately killed a lot of the other students in my class. So naturally all the premed students took O Chem with this professor.

Then there was another professor known for being easyish, well not easy because it's O Chem, but gave straight forward exams (i.e. only material from lecture). The professor gave out mostly As & Bs. In fact the class average for that class was around an 85.

My professor, knowing her class was more difficult, scaled our grades 4 points at the end of the semesters. But our class average worked out to be a 76 (including the 4 point scale). I ended up with a B-. Had I been in the other class I probably would have earned at least an A-. Either way on your transcript was Chem 201: Organic Chemistry. It didn't matter who you took it with. Did I learn more than the students in the other class? Probably but that means f*** all when it comes to med school admissions.

You guys have it nailed though. If you want to go to med school go to an easy, but accredited, college/university get your GPA near a 4.0 and study your *** off for the MCAT. That beats the hell out of going to Harvard for undergrad, graduating with a 3.5 GPA & having a 30 MCAT.

 

[Alexander III]

How on earth would they come up with a standardized and fair way of adjusting GPA based on program and school?

But it is fairly absurd when my friend who got accepted to UBC had completed their first two years at a local college with all straight As, transferred to university where when we took a 3rd year science course together for which I tutored the person and did far better than them and also did a fair bit better on the mcat which we took at the same time.

There are much better ways of calculating GPA than the current system. Standardizing by program within a school is not that difficult. I won't get into it on this forum but, if you are actually interested feel free to private message me.

 

[jf1987]

There are much better ways of calculating GPA than the current system. Standardizing by program within a school is not that difficult. I won't get into it on this forum but, if you are actually interested feel free to private message me.

I know that some schools adjust by faculty where in social science you need a higher percentage to get an A, for example. However, to implement this it would require the coordination of all colleges and universities and I can't see this happening. For example, a biochem degree from UofT would have to be standardized against an arts degree from a privately owned college where the student body is of an entirely different caliber.

 

[Alexander III]

I know that some schools adjust by faculty where in social science you need a higher percentage to get an A, for example. However, to implement this it would require the coordination of all colleges and universities and I can't see this happening. For example, a biochem degree from UofT would have to be standardized against an arts degree from a local college where the student body is of an entirely different caliber.

That is one of the many difficulties and you could never truly standardize all the programs from all the different schools, my point was that they could be doing a much better job. Anyway this is starting to get hypothetical and off topic so if you want to continue this, you should either make a different thread or go to private messaging lol.

 

[Blitz2006]

I read your post and it was very helpful. But honestly, as a high school student looking at the situation it is hard to feel confident at all that you will get into medical school here in Canada. I know that it is incredibly hard for students to maintain a 4.0 GPA and at Queens around 10% of life sci students get into medical school. Honestly, the way things stand why should I do a BSc degree in Canada and apply to medical school when i'm very very likely to fail. A Bsc is 4 years and if you count lost earnings that could easily amount to 1 million dollars.

Lets take a case study:

Assume you are a high school student and you are able to do everything directly and have no trouble in life (however unlikely that is)

4 years BSc -> 4 years MD = 8 years

6 years BSc + MBBS/MB ChB combined

If you got straight into a residency you would have 2 years of earnings over a Canadian student.

Assuming you make 50,000 as a residenty and 250,000 as a staff doctor that is 600,000 in potential earnings that you miss out by going to Canadian medical school. Now of course this is a total generalization because CMG's have more options of residency that often have higher paying outcomes. However, just looking at the stats if you are a typical GTA cookie cutter smart kid who wants to be a doctor (like me) the competition is insane. I have talked to residents who are CMGs and they told me stories of people sabotaging their labs just so they can hurt the competition. Its a man eat man world in Life sci programs across Ontario. Out of the top 7 students in my grade, every single one of them wants to become a doctor. In my Gr. 12 Biology class, more than half of the students applied to McMaster Health Sciences. Everyone and their mother is interested in medicine and to me, unless you are in the top 5 of your graduating class with high marks in the sciences, and strong interpersonal skills (for the interview) I would be afraid of doing a life sci degree in Canada.

Looking at the people who apply to medicine in Ireland/UK and the Caribbean, the vast majority have a BSc in Canada and have applied to medical school multiple times. For me, my thinking is that could be me. By applying straight out of high school, I could potentially save some time and go study abroad (which is one thing that appeals to me, I hate the Canadian university system we just push out people with degrees).

You're making some assumptions dude,

1) You realize that once you're an IMG, your only 'realistic' residencies are IM/FM/Peds/Psych in the U.S, and Psych/FM in Canada? And by the time you graduate (2017 or whatever), the way the climate is going for IMGs in America, it will only be FM/Psych. And guess what, these are the lowest paying specialities....

Fact: There are family docs and psychiatrists earning 150K/year. And by coming overseas, you will have HUGE loans.

I already posted this once, but I will again, cause its 100% accurate: http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

Also remember, physicians' incomes in general are coming down. Long gone are the days when docs are rolling around in 500K pools of money. Those are 80s and 90s. Things have changed, and will continue to change for our generation of doctors.

Fact: My dad is a Physician in Canada, and he has said that in the past 5 years, he has witnessed a 30-40K hit in income.

Trust me man, when you're a final year medical student, as you know as an IMG you have no chance (realistically) at obtaining radiology, urology, derm, anesthetics, ER, etc., you will regret not staying in Canada. Even if you do save 400K or whatever cause you cut short 1-2 years, is that really worth the price of doing something for 40 years that you don't love?

Trust me buddy, if you don't like doing ward rounds for 5-6 hours/day (Hospitalist) or talking to depressed people for 6 hours a day in outpatient clinics (Psychiatry), saving that 400K or whatever will mean nothing.

2) Are you not reading the rest of this thread? You don't go to Queen's Life Sci or Mac Health Sci. You BEAT the rush.

Want my advice? Go to Univ. of Guelph or Univ. of Windsor or York Univ. I'm not slamming these schools at all, but the impression I get is that its easier to get a higher GPA than it is if you do Life Sci at U of T/Queen's or Health Sci at Mac or BMedSci at Western. Do an 'easy' degree or anything that interests you. Smack a 3.9. Take Organic chemistry in the summer so it DOESNT count towards your GPA. Spend 2 months of your summer between 2nd and 3rd year studying for the MCAT. And you're IN. You're a Gr.12 student and posting on SDN. By that alone you're a smart kid. I'm fairly certain you won't have any trouble getting into Ontario Meds...if you play the game.

Worst case scenario, if you don't get into meds after 4 years, you book it to the carribean. I got a close friend that went to Western, did BSc (3 years) and then booked it to SGU (4 years) and matched into Internal Medicine in Ontario. 7 years total.

and if you really play your cards right, you can do 3 years of BSc and 3 years of MD (Mac or Calgary). 6 years total.

In the words of Charlie Sheen, "Winning".

 

[Blitz2006]

GPA shouldn't be used as an indicator of medical school success, because simply put, it isn't a good one.

GPAs not only vary from university to university but from professor to professor.

At my university there was one Organic Chemistry professor who "prepared you well for the MCAT" but asked obscure questions on exams that ultimately killed a lot of the other students in my class. So naturally all the premed students took O Chem with this professor.

Then there was another professor known for being easyish, well not easy because it's O Chem, but gave straight forward exams (i.e. only material from lecture). The professor gave out mostly As & Bs. In fact the class average for that class was around an 85.

My professor, knowing her class was more difficult, scaled our grades 4 points at the end of the semesters. But our class average worked out to be a 76 (including the 4 point scale). I ended up with a B-. Had I been in the other class I probably would have earned at least an A-. Either way on your transcript was Chem 201: Organic Chemistry. It didn't matter who you took it with. Did I learn more than the students in the other class? Probably but that means f*** all when it comes to med school admissions.

You guys have it nailed though. If you want to go to med school go to an easy, but accredited, college/university get your GPA near a 4.0 and study your *** off for the MCAT. That beats the hell out of going to Harvard for undergrad, graduating with a 3.5 GPA & having a 30 MCAT.

Class Avg. of my Orgo Class: 67% (and this was the pre-med/life sci orgo class).

85% class avg for orgo? Are you kidding me? Even 76 is ridiculously high.

 

[druggeek]

Yep, agree with you 100%.

I got caught up in the hype in Gr.12, went for 'prestige'. FML. Now looking back, I could have got my BSc from any random school in Canada and it wouldn't have mattered. Med schools in Canada sure as hell don't give a damn where u got your degree, as long as you have 3.9.

and for ECs, sure they count a lot maybe, but if you don't have 3.8 or whatever, whats the point? And by going to an 'easier' school , doing an 'easier' degree, not only does your GPA shoot up, but you have more time to also do ECs! Win-Win...

And like MonsterCookie said, I had a wicked 4 years, and i also did a thesis, etc, great learning experience. But when all said and done, I played the game wrong. Thats why I give props to KillerT for opening up this thread, cause it shows ppl the real truth about IMGs...and that getting into residency is just another game (and this time I'm trying my best to play it...but again looking back, I think Carribean > UK/Ireland if you want to win the IMG game, but not gonna beat that path again)

Yep. Though the thing with ECs (along with ref letters, essay, PS, and interview if you get it) is that they can overcome someone with a higher gpa than you. As in a 3.80 with excellent ECs will beat a 3.90 with mediocre ECs. And that is how those people get in. But ya those with <3.80s often have to be outstanding in every category to get in.

 

[druggeek]

I read your post and it was very helpful. But honestly, as a high school student looking at the situation it is hard to feel confident at all that you will get into medical school here in Canada. I know that it is incredibly hard for students to maintain a 4.0 GPA and at Queens around 10% of life sci students get into medical school. Honestly, the way things stand why should I do a BSc degree in Canada and apply to medical school when i'm very very likely to fail. A Bsc is 4 years and if you count lost earnings that could easily amount to 1 million dollars.

Lets take a case study:

Assume you are a high school student and you are able to do everything directly and have no trouble in life (however unlikely that is)

4 years BSc -> 4 years MD = 8 years

6 years BSc + MBBS/MB ChB combined

If you got straight into a residency you would have 2 years of earnings over a Canadian student.

Assuming you make 50,000 as a residenty and 250,000 as a staff doctor that is 600,000 in potential earnings that you miss out by going to Canadian medical school. Now of course this is a total generalization because CMG's have more options of residency that often have higher paying outcomes. However, just looking at the stats if you are a typical GTA cookie cutter smart kid who wants to be a doctor (like me) the competition is insane. I have talked to residents who are CMGs and they told me stories of people sabotaging their labs just so they can hurt the competition. Its a man eat man world in Life sci programs across Ontario. Out of the top 7 students in my grade, every single one of them wants to become a doctor. In my Gr. 12 Biology class, more than half of the students applied to McMaster Health Sciences. Everyone and their mother is interested in medicine and to me, unless you are in the top 5 of your graduating class with high marks in the sciences, and strong interpersonal skills (for the interview) I would be afraid of doing a life sci degree in Canada.

Looking at the people who apply to medicine in Ireland/UK and the Caribbean, the vast majority have a BSc in Canada and have applied to medical school multiple times. For me, my thinking is that could be me. By applying straight out of high school, I could potentially save some time and go study abroad (which is one thing that appeals to me, I hate the Canadian university system we just push out people with degrees).

look dude, you're calculating a bunch of useless crap even after it's been mentioned in this thread that high school is meaningless overall and gives a poor indication of your future. The best advice was just given... go to the easiest school you can! If you want specific schools, PM me. Stay away from uoft, queens, mac, western... (i mean like all of their programs, stay away). Even avoid ottawa... a smaller name = general student population isnt as good = easier competition = higher marks.

I think the thought of going IMG and coming back to Canada with a crapload in loans ... and having to work at starbucks or tim hortons to pay back 200,000$ in debt with no actual future in sight should scare you much more than not getting into an ontario med school.

 

[druggeek]

You're making some assumptions dude,

1) You realize that once you're an IMG, your only 'realistic' residencies are IM/FM/Peds/Psych in the U.S, and Psych/FM in Canada? And by the time you graduate (2017 or whatever), the way the climate is going for IMGs in America, it will only be FM/Psych. And guess what, these are the lowest paying specialities....

Fact: There are family docs and psychiatrists earning 150K/year. And by coming overseas, you will have HUGE loans.

I already posted this once, but I will again, cause its 100% accurate: http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

Also remember, physicians' incomes in general are coming down. Long gone are the days when docs are rolling around in 500K pools of money. Those are 80s and 90s. Things have changed, and will continue to change for our generation of doctors.

Fact: My dad is a Physician in Canada, and he has said that in the past 5 years, he has witnessed a 30-40K hit in income.

Trust me man, when you're a final year medical student, as you know as an IMG you have no chance (realistically) at obtaining radiology, urology, derm, anesthetics, ER, etc., you will regret not staying in Canada. Even if you do save 400K or whatever cause you cut short 1-2 years, is that really worth the price of doing something for 40 years that you don't love?

Trust me buddy, if you don't like doing ward rounds for 5-6 hours/day (Hospitalist) or talking to depressed people for 6 hours a day in outpatient clinics (Psychiatry), saving that 400K or whatever will mean nothing.

2) Are you not reading the rest of this thread? You don't go to Queen's Life Sci or Mac Health Sci. You BEAT the rush.

Want my advice? Go to Univ. of Guelph or Univ. of Windsor or York Univ. I'm not slamming these schools at all, but the impression I get is that its easier to get a higher GPA than it is if you do Life Sci at U of T/Queen's or Health Sci at Mac or BMedSci at Western. Do an 'easy' degree or anything that interests you. Smack a 3.9. Take Organic chemistry in the summer so it DOESNT count towards your GPA. Spend 2 months of your summer between 2nd and 3rd year studying for the MCAT. And you're IN. You're a Gr.12 student and posting on SDN. By that alone you're a smart kid. I'm fairly certain you won't have any trouble getting into Ontario Meds...if you play the game.

Worst case scenario, if you don't get into meds after 4 years, you book it to the carribean. I got a close friend that went to Western, did BSc (3 years) and then booked it to SGU (4 years) and matched into Internal Medicine in Ontario. 7 years total.

and if you really play your cards right, you can do 3 years of BSc and 3 years of MD (Mac or Calgary). 6 years total.

In the words of Charlie Sheen, "Winning".

Well said, I think he should be taking mental notes.