A weird question...

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TheMan21

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Let's say you perform surgery on a pt. Soon after, a complication appears that is directly attributable to a mistake that you made during the procedure. Is the pt (or the pt's insurance company) billed for any follow-up surgery that may be necessary to correct the mistake?
 
Let's say you perform surgery on a pt. Soon after, a complication appears that is directly attributable to a mistake that you made during the procedure. Is the pt (or the pt's insurance company) billed for any follow-up surgery that may be necessary to correct the mistake?

I think there is a 30 day period after a surgery where complications are treated for free. More experienced others can chime in.
 
I think there is a 30 day period after a surgery where complications are treated for free. More experienced others can chime in.

That is not correct.

There is a 90 day global period for which office visits related to the primary visit are included in the bundled "global" surgical fee.

However, if you have to take the patient back to the operating room or see them for a separate problem that is NOT included in the global fee and can be billed and reimbursed. You must bill a modifier code (generally 58 - if a planned or staged procedure, or a 78/79 for an unplanned return to the OR) to get the reimbursement, but it is not correct that you don't get paid. This is true regardless of whether or not a known complication or the result of surgical misadventure.
 
Well, Winged Scapula, if you made a mistake and knew you made that mistake...would you go to the trouble of at least waiving the patient's co-pay for the procedure to fix your error? Or do you see it differently...
 
On a somewhat related note, what is considered an acceptable error rate for a surgeon? I understand that zero mistakes is probably the goal, but what happens in actual practice? Also I have to agree that charging to reoperate to correct a mistake kinda seems like literally adding insult to injury...
 
That is not correct.

There is a 90 day global period for which office visits related to the primary visit are included in the bundled "global" surgical fee.

However, if you have to take the patient back to the operating room or see them for a separate problem that is NOT included in the global fee and can be billed and reimbursed. You must bill a modifier code (generally 58 - if a planned or staged procedure, or a 78/79 for an unplanned return to the OR) to get the reimbursement, but it is not correct that you don't get paid. This is true regardless of whether or not a known complication or the result of surgical misadventure.

Thanks for clarifying!
 
Well, Winged Scapula, if you made a mistake and knew you made that mistake...would you go to the trouble of at least waiving the patient's co-pay for the procedure to fix your error? Or do you see it differently...

On a somewhat related note, what is considered an acceptable error rate for a surgeon? I understand that zero mistakes is probably the goal, but what happens in actual practice? Also I have to agree that charging to reoperate to correct a mistake kinda seems like literally adding insult to injury...

I think you need to differentiate between "complication" and "mistake." Complication does not = mistake.

The common misconception is that a complication is a medicolegal issue (ie, a tort) which warrants suit and award. As noted above, complication = / "mistake". All surgeries have known complications. If I cause the patient an injury during the course of surgery, in most cases that would be a known complication and risk of surgery. For example, a commonly litigated complication is a bile duct injury as a result of an intraoperative event during a cholecystectomy. This is a known complication of the surgery, should be covered by surgeons doing this procedure and therefore, a known risk that the patient accepts by undergoing surgery. Informed consent involves the patient knowing about the possible complications (including known and unforeseen ones), accepting those risks and being willing to proceed. Unless a surgeon willfully and wantonly caused injury to a patient (ie, assault) or fails to tell patients about a "reasonably expected" complication, a complication or "mistake" as has been described here, is not generally successfully litigated.

If a patient has to return to the OR during the post-operative (90 day global) period, there is no co-pay.

If a patient has to return to the OR during the post-operative period, they may have a deductible which has not been met (unlikely, if they have already had surgery). If a patient has insurance, you are not allowed to waive co-pays, deductibles, nor are you allowed to do pro bono work in these situations, etc. This is considered insurance fraud. The patient's insurance is billed for the appropriate code and reimbursement rates; to do otherwise is fraud and subjects the surgeon to investigation.

However, I know physicians who have felt "bad" or perhaps even "guilty" for a complication resulting in additional treatment (even known complications) and have reimbursed a patient for their out of pocket expenses. This can be construed by a jury as admission of guilt and any malpractice attorney and medical liability company will tell you never waive these charges or reimburse patients.

An acceptable complication rate depends on what you are doing. All surgeries have certain risks, some more than others. For example, the rate of major complications (ie, heart attack, stroke, etc.) in a breast augmentation is less than 1% in most patients. However, the risk of implant infection may be as high as 40%. Somewhere in between these are the risks of implant extrusion, capsular contraction, etc. I have an 8 page consent form which discusses all these things. If my complication rates wildly exceed the norm, then there's a problem that I need to recognize and rectify. However, if a complication rate is known and explained to the patient, then they have accepted that risk. Some patients will not and it is their choice to not have the surgery. Major complication rates are low for what I do; but if I were a pediatric surgeon doing Kansai procedures, the rate would probably be higher, due to the patient population and the inherent risk of the procedures. So there is no global acceptable complication rate - it depends on the patient (ie, smokers have higher complication rates almost across the board) and the procedure; average figures for procedures are known and discussed with the patient.

I share patient's frustration with the cost of treating complications and yes, it seems unfair to charge for repair of that. If the brakes on my car aren't fixed the first time I go in, I expect that they will repair it (until they get it right). However, if they need to do extra work, I expect to pay for it - if they've done something wrong, I don't. This has not translated to medicine.

Whether or not I feel that's right is irrelevant because the medicolegal and insurance environment does not allow me to fail to charge a patient (nor would the hospital fail to charge the patient for the OR, the postop bed, nursing care, etc.).

I am curious, given the "tone" of the posts above me, whether it is felt that only surgical complications should be managed for free or does this extend to all medical care? If a patient has a reaction to an antibiotic, is the practitioner responsible for paying for the prescription? Where do you draw the line on "never events"?
 
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Winged scapula, thanks for the informative post. To clarify my poorly-worded OP, I was referring to actual mistakes, not to known complications that can arise from surgery. I agree with the policy of charging for treament of the latter. Sorry if I came off as accusatory.
 
Winged scapula, thanks for the informative post. To clarify my poorly-worded OP, I was referring to actual mistakes, not to known complications that can arise from surgery. I agree with the policy of charging for treament of the latter. Sorry if I came off as accusatory.

I think real technical mistakes outside of the realm of known complications (and technical mistakes are a known complication actually) are unusual in someone who is trained, has experience, is feeling well, etc. The latter being good enough reason to think twice about operating when you've been up all night...I can tell you I am much more likely to make a technical and/or judgement error in that case. I might know *what* to do but am I as skilled when I've slept, not sick, etc.? No.

No apologies necessary as your posts were appropriate and I did not find them accusatory in the least.
 
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Winged scapula, thanks for the informative post. To clarify my poorly-worded OP, I was referring to actual mistakes, not to known complications that can arise from surgery. I agree with the policy of charging for treament of the latter. Sorry if I came off as accusatory.
In the case of a medical error, it's my understanding the patient does not have to pay to correct the sequelae of the error. For example, an off-site Bovie burn. In some states, this gets reported to the medical board and goes on your record. I'm pretty sure the patient does not have to pay for the debridement and skin grafting involved. Now, for something like wrong-site surgery (sorry, we did an endarterectomy on the wrong carotid), I'm not sure if the patient has to pay for the original operation to be done, because even after that they still have a symptomatic stenosis on the other side that needs to be fixed.
 
The thing is, this "known complications" thing sounds awfully unfair. If I got to a brake shop, and they tell me that they "might" accidentally forget to tighten all the connections in my hydraulic system, and that this is a "known complication" and I am 100% liable if THEY make the mistake, I am going to not be happy. And if I need brake repair, and there's no practical way for me to do it myself, and all the shops in the area want the same "agreement", I effectively have no choice but to go along.

The current system is not even remotely equitable or fair to patients OR to providers. (since providers are forced to go along with this under threat of a med-mal suit)

Basically, if a surgeon slips or is deliberately careless and the injury happens to be a "known complication", the patient bears 100% of the costs for making things right. And unless the OR staff rat out the surgeon for the screwup, the patient's never going to collect damages in a suit.
 
The thing is, this "known complications" thing sounds awfully unfair. If I got to a brake shop, and they tell me that they "might" accidentally forget to tighten all the connections in my hydraulic system, and that this is a "known complication" and I am 100% liable if THEY make the mistake, I am going to not be happy. And if I need brake repair, and there's no practical way for me to do it myself, and all the shops in the area want the same "agreement", I effectively have no choice but to go along.

The current system is not even remotely equitable or fair to patients OR to providers. (since providers are forced to go along with this under threat of a med-mal suit)

Basically, if a surgeon slips or is deliberately careless and the injury happens to be a "known complication", the patient bears 100% of the costs for making things right. And unless the OR staff rat out the surgeon for the screwup, the patient's never going to collect damages in a suit.

If the surgeon is deliberately careless, then he/she has assaulted the patient and is legally and ethically responsible for any complications resulting from that. In those causes, legal action against the surgeon is warranted and patients should be able to recover from that. But a complication isn't necessarily being deliberately careless or making a mistake. Complications may be due to a technical error for sure, but they may also be due to patient disease or other extraneous factors.

I agree it doesn't seem fair and I'm not sure what the answer is. It very well may come to not being paid for avoidable complications and any further needed treatment.
 
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If the surgeon is deliberately careless, then he/she has assaulted the patient and is legally and ethically responsible for any complications resulting from that. In those causes, legal action against the surgeon is warranted and patients should be able to recover from that.

I agree it doesn't seem fair and I'm not sure what the answer is. It very well may come to not being paid for avoidable complications and any further needed treatment. But a complication isn't necessarily being deliberately careless or making a mistake. Complications may be due to a technical error for sure, but they may also be due to patient disease or other extraneous factors.

Sure, in theory. But since the "known complications" are basically anything that ever commonly goes wrong, including, presumably, mistakes that are preventable yet fairly easy to make...then a surgeon can be as careless as (s)he wants and rarely faces the consequences...
 
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An acceptable complication rate depends on what you are doing. All surgeries have certain risks, some more than others. For example, the rate of major complications (ie, heart attack, stroke, etc.) in a breast augmentation is less than 1% in most patients. However, the risk of implant infection may be as high as 40%. Somewhere in between these are the risks of implant extrusion, capsular contraction, etc. I have an 8 page consent form which discusses all these things.

I thought you didn't do aesthetic things (like augmentations) - I can't say why I know, as that would violate the TOS, but, is a post-mastectomy augmentation considered "aesthetic"?
 
I thought you didn't do aesthetic things (like augmentations) - I can't say why I know, as that would violate the TOS, but, is a post-mastectomy augmentation considered "aesthetic"?

1) I never said I did augmentations; I do them *with* the plastic surgeon and my consent form covers all aspects of breast surgery, including the reconstruction, or if already augmented, the possibility of damage or changes to the implant from my surgery and/or other treatments

2) Post-Mastectomy breast implants are NOT aesthetic; they are considered reconstructive surgery and by federal law (since 1998) are required to be covered by insurance. Aesthetic surgery is not. If you were to remove a leg for vascular disease, insurance has to pay for the prosthesis; if you were to remove part of an nose for skin cancer, insurance has to pay for the flap. These are not aesthetic operations. For years women were denied reconstruction because it was seen as aesthetic rather than reconstruction, even while noses, eyes, etc. were paid for.

3) I'm not sure what the TOS has to do with whether or not augmentation is aesthetic but appreciate your passive aggressive dig at me.
 
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The thing is, this "known complications" thing sounds awfully unfair. If I got to a brake shop, and they tell me that they "might" accidentally forget to tighten all the connections in my hydraulic system, and that this is a "known complication" and I am 100% liable if THEY make the mistake, I am going to not be happy. And if I need brake repair, and there's no practical way for me to do it myself, and all the shops in the area want the same "agreement", I effectively have no choice but to go along.

The current system is not even remotely equitable or fair to patients OR to providers. (since providers are forced to go along with this under threat of a med-mal suit)

Basically, if a surgeon slips or is deliberately careless and the injury happens to be a "known complication", the patient bears 100% of the costs for making things right. And unless the OR staff rat out the surgeon for the screwup, the patient's never going to collect damages in a suit.

You don't have a very good concept of what makes up surgical complications. There are technical errors, system errors, judgment errors and then there are the complications that occur as an extension of the patient's underlying medical illness/progression of their disease, and they probably occur in that order of increasing frequency. It isn't ever about "might not do something adequately," it is about, even though everything is done to the best that it can be done, bad things still can occur. There isn't a torque wrench to determine how tight to tie your suture and the fact that the engine is bad doesn't make your wheels fly off when rotating your tires, so to compare fixing your car to fixing a person isn't a good analogy.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that there is some conspiracy in the OR or that there are surgeons who deliberately intend on harming patients and that these two things lead to a majority of complications. This isn't the case. As I stated above, most are either errors in judgment (shouldn't have taken the patient to the OR because of comorbidities) or complications that arise from the patient's underlying medical status. As you can see, with those patients you are damned if you do, damned if you don't, and that is why all surgical fields are 5-year residencies; to teach you (a) who needs an operation and (b) to understand that you can't be perfect.
 
The thing is, this "known complications" thing sounds awfully unfair. If I got to a brake shop, and they tell me that they "might" accidentally forget to tighten all the connections in my hydraulic system, and that this is a "known complication" and I am 100% liable if THEY make the mistake, I am going to not be happy. And if I need brake repair, and there's no practical way for me to do it myself, and all the shops in the area want the same "agreement", I effectively have no choice but to go along.

You can't do your own brakes? 😆 🤣 :roflcopter:
 
I agree it doesn't seem fair and I'm not sure what the answer is. It very well may come to not being paid for avoidable complications and any further needed treatment.

Avoidable ("never") complications, according to CMS, now includes UTIs and decubitus ulcers. That phrase is not a road we want to travel down for surgical outcomes.
 
Avoidable ("never") complications, according to CMS, now includes UTIs and decubitus ulcers. That phrase is not a road we want to travel down for surgical outcomes.

Exactly. I am well aware of that issue (which I why I used that phrase). Doomsday perhaps, but I can see not being paid for positive surgical margins, post-op abscesses, under this sort of thing.
 
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3) I'm not sure what the TOS has to do with whether or not augmentation is aesthetic but appreciate your passive aggressive dig at me.

Not passive/aggressive; it was the manner in which I found out. Revealing that is the violation.

The balance of your post answered my question. I did not know if reconstruction was considered aesthetic. Now I know! Thank you.
 
Not passive/aggressive; it was the manner in which I found out. Revealing that is the violation.

What? To say I told you in a PM?

Eh...I'm not sure that's an issue...at least not on this topic, as I've stated that many times in the open forums.

The balance of your post answered my question. I did not know if reconstruction was considered aesthetic. Now I know! Thank you.

YW. Its a common misconception. Many women are suprised because they remember a family member having surgery years ago and not being offered recon. Insurance also has to pay for symmetry - so whether that means bilateral mastectomies with recon, or a reduction or mastopexy on the contralateral side...paid for. I tell women who are unhappy with their breasts that perhaps this is the silver lining - they can have the breasts they've always wanted.

I had a young girl, age 18, giant fibroadenoma - took up the entire lower pole of her small A cup breast. She was distraught when I told her I couldn't remove it without a large cosmetic deformity and that no oncoplastics would help. She came back from the plastic surgeon practically skipping, "I always wanted implants." She started college with her beautiful bilateral breasts paid for by her insurance company. 🙂
 
Wow, what a happy story of an 18-year-old girl getting breast augementation paid for by other people. I'm so glad to be living in these times, where I have to endure that kind of behavior. 🙄

Odds of her becoming a pole dancer: high.
 
Wow, what a happy story of an 18-year-old girl getting breast augementation paid for by other people. I'm so glad to be living in these times, where I have to endure that kind of behavior. 🙄

Odds of her becoming a pole dancer: high.

To be fair, the excision of that mass without recon would have left her deformed and I don't have a problem for paying for augmentation in that situation.
 
Wow, what a happy story of an 18-year-old girl getting breast augementation paid for by other people. I'm so glad to be living in these times, where I have to endure that kind of behavior. 🙄

Odds of her becoming a pole dancer: high.

Tell me about it, what kind of world do we live in where insurance companies are forced to pay for correction of breast deformity, or, ya know, burn reconstruction, or flap recon of a nose eaten up by cancer. Commies.

Q: Why is a breast worth less than a face?
A: Because men don't have them.
 
The thing is, this "known complications" thing sounds awfully unfair. If I got to a brake shop, and they tell me that they "might" accidentally forget to tighten all the connections in my hydraulic system, and that this is a "known complication" and I am 100% liable if THEY make the mistake, I am going to not be happy. And if I need brake repair, and there's no practical way for me to do it myself, and all the shops in the area want the same "agreement", I effectively have no choice but to go along...
I used to try and think of it in terms like the mechanic and car. Unfortunately patients do too. The truth is that the analogy is exceedingly flawed. An automobile is an exceedingly simple piece of machinery with a generally thoroughly produced manual. A human being with illness is not. The vast majority of "complications" are difficult if not impossible to pinpoint a correctable or alterable component to avoid in the future. One patient bleeds the next 200 do not even though the procedure is done the same way. One patient gets an ugly scar while others do not. One gets an infection and others do not. Each individual patients immune system, clotting/hemostatic proteins, healing, etc.... is unique. Yes, there are generally shared similarities, but unique nonethe less.

In the car analogy, you get your breaks done. They don't work right and so they are re-inspected and re-worked. It is highly unlikely the customer climbed under the hood and loosened a screw or drained the fluid, etc.... In surgery, maybe the patient ingested a ~toxin. He/she could have smoked, could be eating high fats, high salts. Maybe they have diabetes and/or hypertension. Maybe they take blood pressure medications and over do it at home, get low blood pressure, poorly perfuse, get ischemia and infection, poor healing, dehiscence, etc... Those are examples of things dealing just directing with the patient's comorbidities. But, what about the patient that doesn't wash their hands when going to the bathroom? How about the patients that shower once a day? once every two days? twice a week? Maybe sleep in their beds with their cat? dog? bird? how about orgies in hot tubs? community swimming pools? climb stairs at home vs patients without stairs? People would be so surprised at the huge amount of variety in dietary and environmental exposure post-op to our patients. The millions of millions of variations and differences in environment really make it impossible to standardize to the degree of a break job.

Remember, we do the operation, the patients do the healing in whatever environment is their reality. Bottom line, a patient pays for the set work that is done and not necessarily the final healed result. They are not buying new tissues nor are they getting a guarantee as to what their body will do. We discuss expectations based on what past recovery experiences have been.... but that is not a guarantee. I have heard plenty of patients with recurrent cancer mumble about a refund cause the operation wasn't a cure. I appreciation their disappointment.... but they got a good operation with possibility cure but no guarantee.... The "unfairness" of complications by far occurs in utero....
...It isn't ever about "might not do something adequately," it is about, even though everything is done to the best that it can be done, bad things still can occur...
 
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What's so bad about showering only once a day?
Not passing a judgement in that. I am simply making the observation/comment that hygiene practices can vary for any number of reasons, be cultural, socio-economic, etc....

I have patients that believe showering more frequently then every two days is unhealthy for their skin (just like vets say don't bath dogs more then every two weeks or monthly, etc...). I have female patients that bath daily but clean their hair once a week. On the other hand there are individuals that will bath 2 or more times per day because of their job/life/etc.... Sometimes their skin is dried, cracked, rashy, etc....

Again, not a judgement, just an observation that the hygiene and environment in which our patients heal has almost infinite number of variables.
 
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To be fair, the excision of that mass without recon would have left her deformed and I don't have a problem for paying for augmentation in that situation.

Let me clarify: I have absolutely no problem with reconstructive plastic surgery. I completely understand and agree with the belief that losing one or both breasts is a traumatic experience for a woman and that reconstruction is deserved.

What I DO NOT agree with is saying "oh, hey, BTW, you want me to throw in some DDs on the other side and then match it with the recon?" Reconstruct it to what it was and if she wants more, let her pay for it. I hear about some dumb 18-year-old girl skipping around happily because now she gets free, shiny new gigantic breasts to go off to college with that I paid for, that makes me want to puke. Hopefully right all over her new breasts and possibly into her face and mouth.
 
Let me clarify: I have absolutely no problem with reconstructive plastic surgery. I completely understand and agree with the belief that losing one or both breasts is a traumatic experience for a woman and that reconstruction is deserved.

What I DO NOT agree with is saying "oh, hey, BTW, you want me to throw in some DDs on the other side and then match it with the recon?" Reconstruct it to what it was and if she wants more, let her pay for it. I hear about some dumb 18-year-old girl skipping around happily because now she gets free, shiny new gigantic breasts to go off to college with that I paid for, that makes me want to puke. Hopefully right all over her new breasts and possibly into her face and mouth.

I get that concern and its a not uncommon one. I frankly have more of a problem paying for things that are due to patient self-abuse (morbid obesity, smoking, etc. than paying for breast recon and symmetry procedures). Given the insurance reimbursement for breast recon is about $1000 and 50% of that for the contralateral side, the country is hardly going broke paying for these things and plastic surgeons are not rushing in to do these procedures. Aesthetic augs (cash pay) are much more lucrative.

In the case of the young girl I mention above, there was no way to reconstruct her without an implant and there didn't exist an implant small enough to simply her to "what she was". Therefore, even the smallest implant on the affected side would have made her bigger and therefore, it wouldn't have made a difference if you were putting in a B cup implant or a DD, as the work would have been the same.
 
Nah, you can reconstruct someone back to "flat as a board." Maybe they don't make implants that small, but I'd just bust out an expander and fill it with 5 mL and throw that sucker in and she'd be good to go. 👍
 
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