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Your GF's observations have some merit -- but pressuring you to give up your dreams and marry her instead -- well, uh...

You need to do what's right for you, and if it's medical school, go for it!

That said, she needs to do what's right for her, and if that's NOT getting legally entangled with your massive debt, well then, that makes sense too. Is it a desire for babies that's putting her in a rush?
 
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PREMED501 said:
wants to have a baby yesterday, so yes.
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You can still have a baby in med school... What would be your alternative to med school? Would it help you pay off the debt faster? If it's some $50k job... probably not going to be better in the long run. If it's in the 6 figures, then it's more iffy.
 
futuremdforme said:
You can still have a baby in med school... What would be your alternative to med school? Would it help you pay off the debt faster? If it's some $50k job... probably not going to be better in the long run. If it's in the 6 figures, then it's more iffy.
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You can have a baby in high school too.
 
first_time_poster said:
You can have a baby in high school too.
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The difference is that once you're in med school, they'll work hard to keep you in, whereas beforehand, they're looking for any reason to screen people out of the program. Also, spouses help. I wouldn't say do it alone. Med school actually seems like the best time to have kids since if you're sleep deprived and screw up, someone should catch your mistake before you kill someone.
 
You're young enough to be part of the "you don't have to be married to have a baby generation" so that is something to be considered if you're sure she's 'the one' and are totally on board with the kids thing. But what are her plans for paying the bills while she has this baby? Is it you staying in your current non-dream job while she stays home for a while? Your job and hers both? Is she willing to consider an arrangement that allows her the baby she wants yesterday but doesn't obligate her to your debt?
 
I am currently an M1 and there is a student in my class who has just recently finished law school (in his 30's). Now he wants to be a doctor and everyone has supported him up to this point (as far as I can tell). Careful with what the naysayers have said, others in similar situations (perhaps even worse) are currently working on becoming future doctors . While some do have a very good point, if it is your dream to become a doctor then I say go for it. It sounds to me that your girlfriend's priorities are to get married and have kids while giving your needs little consideration. I have no doubt in my mind that you can get married and have kids while in medical school.

As far as debt goes, as long as it can be managed, do you really mind making payments for a longer period of time as long as it involves you working your dream job for the rest of your life? Do not settle. You're not even in your 30's yet. You are not too old to start medical school. There are many students who are much older than you are in medical school (and if I was a betting man, I would say some perhaps even in greater debt).

I'm not saying it's going to be easy OP, I'm just saying that if you truly want to become a physician; it's going to be worth it.
 
At my school, there are about 40 foreign physicians re-doing their degrees so that they can have a chance to work in the US. It is their calling. Some have expressed they would have felt unfulfilled doing anything else. Most have families, some have babies, and one was pregnant/gave birth during our foundations course! And also, my friend, who was a pharmacist before med school is 28 years old, single, and doing very well. I don't know if this necessarily works out all the time but a wise person once said to me, "Do what you love and the money will come."

Please put yourself first, love yourself, and live your life the way you want to. You are 29 years young.

Sorry to throw in the negatives of what I'm seeing but: it would be the saddest thing if you were "pressured" into an engagement--> and possibly unhappy marriage. It would be a real tragedy if your regret of not going to medical school got tied to the fact that your resident girlfriend did not offer her support of your life goal. It is very possible the regret would seep into your married life and morph into a type of muted-hatred and dislike. [Think: "I gave up pursuing my dream so you could do yours!!" kind of drama] It is not healthy. And it does not bode well for your life. [gets off soap box].

Medicine is your dream, and may be the arena where you truly belong. Do not delay. The rest of your life is waiting!
 
I know that the straight military scholarship is a bad financial decision, since the money you save by taking the scholarship will be much less than what you give up by being in the military. I would investigate this national guard scholarship more carefully, as I don't know much about it, but it sounds like "I'm from the government and I'm here to help". The national guard deal will probably end up with you being called up, given all the military entanglements we have been in lately. Even if you don't get called up, if you have to do 90 days, that will effectively shut down your practice, so private practice would be out. Very few organizations will want to hire someone with such a big commitment. However, if you want to serve, then by all means do so.

That aside, the most important financial decision you will make in your life is marriage. Frankly, this woman doesn't sound like a very supportive spouse. Run, don't walk. You only know her for one year. She sounds like a huge potential disaster for you. If she cared about you at all she would be happy to support you through med school, and pay your tuition. Before you get married to anyone, you really need to be absolutely sure. You should not have any doubts. Go to med school. If she sticks around, you can try to make it work. But DO NOT GET MARRIED unless you are 100% sure.
 
PREMED501 said:
wants to have a baby yesterday, so yes.
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I missed this before.

So, what's really going on here, is that she wants a baby, wants it now, and wants someone to work and support her while she stays home. That someone could be anyone, but since you're around, it will be you. Of course, that means that you can't go to med school, because then you won't be around to take care of her. Look, obviously I don't know her, but I have seen a significant number of doctors, both male and female, marry people who were obviously bad news. In addition to being terrible with money, doctors are terrible with relationships as well. I have witnessed several surgeons getting involved with, and marry, staff members who were obviously manipulative and in two cases obviously mentally ill. "Accidental" pregnancies ensued in at least 2 cases. Sorry to repeat myself, but stay away from her, and in the future, if you have doubts, please do as you did today, and get a second opinion.

By the way, I think that you will be able to pay back your loans, but you will be working on it for a long time, and med school may not be a good financial decision, but it sounds like you won't be happy unless you do it, so for that reason, and that reason alone, I recommend that you do it. You didn't indicate what your present salary was, but if I were you, I would run all the numbers carefully. If you're sure that you will qualify for PSLF, by working for a non-profit, then that will help, but the government might put an income limit or a loan limit on how much they will allow you to discharge in the future, so don't be so sure that you will actually have the loans forgiven. So run the numbers both ways.
 
bc65 said:
Even if you don't get called up, if you have to do 90 days, that will effectively shut down your practice, so private practice would be out.
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Solo private practice would certainly be out, but in my neck of the woods, I know of more than a handful of practices -Family, IM, OB- who would gladly cover for a partner who's in the Guard. In exchange for the marketing gold of having a service member on staff.
 
PREMED501 said:
They are all federal I already have some PSLF time on books as I currently work for a hospital. I have always intended to utilize PSLF as I will likely be grandfathered in at 100% forgiveness since I will not be a new borrower if rules change, etc. Not definite but all the experts I spoke to tell me I will almost certainly not have rug pulled out from under me.
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One important point: there are no experts when it comes to rule changes in the PSLF program. There is no existing precedent for them to base any expertise on. The program is 100% clear that you do not have a contract with them and they are free to change the rules at any time or even eliminate the program alltogether without ever paying out a dime. Beyond that what they will choose to change (if anything), when they will choose to do it, and how/if they will grandfather in people like you is 100% speculation.
 
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Perrotfish said:
One important point: there are no experts when it comes to rule changes in the PSLF program. There is no existing precedent for them to base any expertise on. The program is 100% clear that you do not have a contract with them and they are free to change the rules at any time or even eliminate the program alltogether without ever paying out a dime. Beyond that what they will choose to change (if anything), when they will choose to do it, and how/if they will grandfather in people like you is 100% speculation.
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This.

In my opinion, you should make your decisions assuming PSLF is NOT an option. If when your time comes to pay back those loans, it still exists as it does today then great, but if you need 100% forgiveness to make med school feasible/worthwhile for you, I wouldn't risk it.
 
FantasticDoctorFox said:
This.

In my opinion, you should make your decisions assuming PSLF is NOT an option. If when your time comes to pay back those loans, it still exists as it does today then great, but if you need 100% forgiveness to make med school feasible/worthwhile for you, I wouldn't risk it.
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1+
 
Oh, well since you've been accepted to M.D. I say go for it!

If you'd have said D.O. that'd be a different story.








(Joking aside... Go for it- otherwise you may end up resenting someone and feeling like you should've done more with your life, but only if you feel a true calling)
 
futuremdforme said:
You can still have a baby in med school... What would be your alternative to med school? Would it help you pay off the debt faster? If it's some $50k job... probably not going to be better in the long run. If it's in the 6 figures, then it's more iffy.
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I am currently pulling in $75k, so I'm up in the air.
 
PREMED501 said:
She very much has grown up in a bubble, and I am actually surprised she isn't more of a snob.
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She may not be a snob but she sounds pretty bratty to me. Relationships are about compromise but it seems she thinks all the compromising should be done by you.
 
I am younger (year out of school) so take this for what it is worth, but I am also in a long term relationship and deciding how medical school will play into that and vice versa (applying this cycle all over the country). The way I see it is that if you make a decision involving your personal and professional life based on this SO, and the regret that you already feel remains, then you will associate that regret with her and likely begin to resent her for it (even if you would have made the same decision in an alternate universe where you never met her - you will just always wonder).

My college chemistry professor used to always say his father (a prestigious Chinese chemist) told him two things:
  1. The energy level of bonding orbitals is always lower and the energy level of antibonding orbitals is higher.
  2. Never marry anybody crazy.
He was divorced and said he should have listened to his father. He also enjoyed metaphors between atomic bonds forming or breaking and married or divorced couples... sounds silly, but one of my favorite teachers.

22031 Alum said:
Relationships are about compromise but it seems she thinks all the compromising should be done by you.
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This ^^. Has anybody asked yet if YOU want children?

Edit: this may be unrelated to the forum but if you want to direct message I would be very interested in your decisions/ path of interest from law school to medical school.
 
PREMED501 said:
Part of her problem is that she comes from family of great privilege. She has never taken out a single student loan, drives Beemer, etc.
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That shouldn't be a problem. It should be the solution. Since she has money, she should be offering to support you if she cared about you at all. Sorry, but she clearly doesn't.

The more information you give, the worse she seems. She is completely selfish and unreasonable. This will only get worse after you're married, worse still after you have kids, and even worse when the demands come through a divorce attorney, which I assure you they will, after she's done using you for stud.

Personality quirks that seem endearing now will be annoying after you're married.
"Cute crazy" now will be really crazy after you're married.
Plus, her looks will be gone sooner than you think, and she'll stop having sex with you before that.

Not only is she bad news now, but after your divorce, you will be left with nothing: She will have the kids, you will have alimony payments and no MD.

Never get married expecting that the areas of friction will get better. They always get worse, so include that in your deliberations. No one's perfect, but this one is really bad news. Dump her today.

P.S. Never have "goodbye sex". I know a doctor still paying child support for that mistake.
 
@PREMED501 you and I aren't too far apart in age so I'm going to give you my take on this. I'm in a serious relationship (3 years together) and will be matriculating in 2016. In the 3 years I've been with this guy, he's stood by and supported me through getting accepted to law school, deciding I didn't want to be a lawyer after all, taking two years to work a crap job, getting laid off, deciding I want to attend medical school and now is willing to stay with me when I begin school next year. Now I don't know if he's the guy I'll marry, but I know that I won't ever settle for anything less than the support he's shown me because that's what we all deserve in a relationship.

This betch sounds nuts, tbh. It sounds like it's all about what she wants and absolutely nothing about what you want. If she's like this after less than a year, imagine what she'll be like when she's got a ring on her hand and a kid from you. She's grooming you to be a stay-at-home dad taking care of her kid and maybe, if you're lucky, working some **** job you don't like while she continues with her dream career, family, etc. Get the **** out of there.
 
There's always this weird, MRA undercurrent of misogyny on here. Can't we discuss things without going into this weird myth that women are all money-grubbing bitches who want to trap you into marriage and ruin your life?

Anyway, that said, no one can tell you what to do, debt-wise, but I can tell you that marrying this girl and then not going to medical school is a recipe for unhappiness. If just being in meetings with doctors is making you unhappy and regretful, think of coming home to that every day, year after year, especially after you've had a particularly bad / boring / frustrating day at work. It's a recipe for resentment, and it's asking to have your marriage end in divorce.

It sounds like she's not supportive of you going to medical school, and as someone who is 31 and in medical school, you are going to need a supportive partner. It's different than being 22, in a lot of good and bad ways, but one thing that is REALLY important is having a partner who understands why your life doesn't look like the lives of everyone else your age (house, dog, 2.5 kids, 401k, etc.). It sounds like your girlfriend has gotten to a point in her life where she wants all that (which is fair and not crazy), but it sounds like you're not there yet (which is also fair.)
 
drdisney said:
There's always this weird, MRA undercurrent of misogyny on here. Can't we discuss things without going into this weird myth that women are all money-grubbing bitches who want to trap you into marriage and ruin your life?

Anyway, that said, no one can tell you what to do, debt-wise, but I can tell you that marrying this girl and then not going to medical school is a recipe for unhappiness. If just being in meetings with doctors is making you unhappy and regretful, think of coming home to that every day, year after year, especially after you've had a particularly bad / boring / frustrating day at work. It's a recipe for resentment, and it's asking to have your marriage end in divorce.

It sounds like she's not supportive of you going to medical school, and as someone who is 31 and in medical school, you are going to need a supportive partner. It's different than being 22, in a lot of good and bad ways, but one thing that is REALLY important is having a partner who understands why your life doesn't look like the lives of everyone else your age (house, dog, 2.5 kids, 401k, etc.). It sounds like your girlfriend has gotten to a point in her life where she wants all that (which is fair and not crazy), but it sounds like you're not there yet (which is also fair.)
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I hope this wasn't directed at me! I don't think women are all money-grubbing bitches who want to trap men into marriage and ruin their lives, but this one he's got sure sounds that way :laugh:.

I'm a woman and actually a huge feminist, which means I think men and women should be equal, but it doesn't sound like there's a lot of equality going on in their relationship. That's not misogynistic at all, quite the opposite.
 
drdisney said:
There's always this weird, MRA undercurrent of misogyny on here. Can't we discuss things without going into this weird myth that women are all money-grubbing bitches who want to trap you into marriage and ruin your life?
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I also hope this wasn't directed at me. Pointing out unreasonable behavior isn't misogyny. Besides, people use hyperbole and extremes to make a point. When it's a female doing it you get the money-grubbing bitch trope. When it's a male you get the controlling abuser trope. The reality is certainly less extreme than all that.
 
If it was directed at me I certainly dont care what a WOMAN thinks of me
 
I think that healthy marriages/long-term relationships are all about being honest, with yourself and each other, about what you want from life and what you are or are not willing to give up for the other person. You can love someone but be incompatible because the life you each envision for yourselves does not match.

She is not a crazy b**ch for wanting a family at this stage in her life or for not wanting to go through the stress and sacrifice that is being married to someone pursing an MD. She's not crazy for wanting a future husband with "regular" work hours or who is not a service member that will be going on duty, even if it is only 90 days every 3-5 years. At the same time YOU are not crazy or wrong for wanting to pursue an MD or even for having that goal be a priority over a relationship. You have to decide what sacrifices you can and can't live with and go from there. Again, you can love someone but recognize that the two of you simply are not compatible in the long term because of conflicting life-goals/visions for your future.

It is not easy to make these kinds of decisions, but I strongly encourage you to take some time to reflect and be honest with yourself--there are a lot of unhappy people out there who married/committed to people they loved without ever being realistic about whether each of their goals in life were compatible with one another's. I wish you the best of luck in this process!
 
Bro, you haven't even been dating a year and she's making ultimatums left and right plus trying to direct your life to her bidding. Sounds like a great marriage in the making. Funny thing is that she's on her second residency, but wont let you have a second choice in life. At 300,000 in debt and 75K pre-tax income you should start medical school next year. Get that JD-MD you want.
 
FantasticDoctorFox said:
She is not a crazy b**ch for wanting a family at this stage in her life or for not wanting to go through the stress and sacrifice that is being married to someone pursing an MD. She's not crazy for wanting a future husband with "regular" work hours or who is not a service member that will be going on duty, even if it is only 90 days every 3-5 years. At the same time YOU are not crazy or wrong for wanting to pursue an MD or even for having that goal be a priority over a relationship. You have to decide what sacrifices you can and can't live with and go from there. Again, you can love someone but recognize that the two of you simply are not compatible in the long term because of conflicting life-goals/visions for your future.
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No one is saying she's a crazy betch for wanting these things, we're saying she's a crazy betch for trying to coerce the OP into sacrificing the life he envisions for himself to give her the life she sees for herself lol.
 
@PREMED501 Everyone here is telling you to dump your woman and I, too, support that notion. Look into the mirror and tell yourself this, "I deserve much better!" I know it's difficult to breakup, but hey if you're going to become a physician, you'll have to make tough decisions and you should start with this.
 
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Affiche said:
No one is saying she's a crazy betch for wanting these things, we're saying she's a crazy betch for trying to coerce the OP into sacrificing the life he envisions for himself to give her the life she sees for herself lol.
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More specifically, she's crazy for thinking that her demands are reasonable, and could be the foundation for a healthy relationship.

There's nothing misogynistic here. Bad choices and bad marriages afflict both genders equally. I convinced several of my female colleagues to get prenuptial agreements before getting married. Men can be crazy spouses too.
 
I don't think anyone is being misogynistic here, and I never said such. I am simply saying that, without being present for the conversation to hear her exact words/tone, I don't think she's crazy for being clear and explicit in saying that she doesn't want to be with him if he pursues this new path. That's not coercion, that's just honesty. However, as I mentioned in my last post, he is now perfectly capable of responding by walking away from the relationship to find someone who wants the same things he does and is willing to be supportive of him during this next phase of his life.
 
FantasticDoctorFox said:
I don't think anyone is being misogynistic here, and I never said such. I am simply saying that, without being present for the conversation to hear her exact words/tone, I don't think she's crazy for being clear and explicit in saying that she doesn't want to be with him if he pursues this new path. That's not coercion, that's just honesty. However, as I mentioned in my last post, he is now perfectly capable of responding by walking away from the relationship to find someone who wants the same things he does and is willing to be supportive of him during this next phase of his life.
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Meh, I think giving an ultimatum is a form of coercion, but whatevs.
 
1. We're basically the same age. I can't imagine just starting med school at this point. It's a long road, you already have a terminal degree. It's time to think practically.
2. I'm not sure what kind of fantasy you have about the role doctors have in administration but I guarantee you that doctors do not have the final say in hospital administration. If the only reason you want to go to med school is to basically go back to doing the same job but not feel inferior then that's really stupid.
3. Your girlfriend is being a little selfish but also reasonable.
 
Engagement + baby + throw away an MD acceptance for me = pretty unreasonable after less than a year of dating imho, but wtf do I know lol.

Plenty of people take time off before med school now. Starting in late 20's/low 30's is hardly unheard of. Tbh I can't imagine having started med school at 22, but to each his own.
 
OP, lets go back to the loan issue. What are the specifics of your loans? Are they all eligible for PSLF? Consider the following: If your loans will accrue interest during school and residency, your 300k could double between now and then. Add in med school loans, and you could owe 1 million or more. As I, and others, have noted, you can't really count on PSLF being around for you. That said, how many years of PSLF do you already have credited? I wonder if you could get a job while in medical school that would give you more PSLF credit? Residency might give you credit, and if the hospital you currently work for is a non-profit, then going back to work for them would discharge all your loans, assuming that all the stars align for you. Double check to make sure that you are getting all the credit you're entitled to now.

Also, how much do you expect to earn as an MD? If you go back to administration, will it pay a doctor's salary? You won't be able to pay the interest on a 750k-1 million loan on a 75k salary. Figure that into your calculations. See how much more you will need to make to service your future loans, and see if it will make sense financially to go to med school. Either way, you should know what you're getting into.

It's entirely possible that you will come out ahead by going to med school, because the increased MD salary might leave more money after taxes to pay both sets of loans. It's also possible that you'll never be able to pay the loans off. Remember, if you don't get PSLF, and use IBR or PAYE, your forgiven loans are taxable, so you will end up having to pay off close to the original amount anyway, but all at once. Do all the math, and carefully.
 
I'll keep it simple: anyone who asks you to drop your dreams in the toilet in favor of theirs is in it for themselves alone. Now, I'm not saying she doesn't have a point about your debt load or the medical field in general, but only YOU should make the decision on whether to proceed. You haven't been together long enough to make this a fully joint decision yet (also, it's so obvious her biological clock is ticking.. let someone else press the snooze button...).

My thinking is that money is just money. Never let it stand in the way of doing what you want.
 
do NOT go to med school. it's a terrible financial decision. it's a huge waste of time and the personal sacrifice isn't worth it. it's not worth it for any reason.
 
ZX10R said:
Bro, you haven't even been dating a year and she's making ultimatums left and right plus trying to direct your life to her bidding. Sounds like a great marriage in the making. Funny thing is that she's on her second residency, but wont let you have a second choice in life. At 300,000 in debt and 75K pre-tax income you should start medical school next year. Get that JD-MD you want.
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The bold x10. Not trying to sound like a jerk, but it always blows my mind when people get engaged/married without even knowing the person for a year. While I'm sure there are plenty of these relationships that do work, the vast majority of them that I have seen don't. It just seems like they're setting themselves up for a failed relationship.

If she really thinks that coming out of residency or med school without debt is normal, then she's got a pretty skewed view of what 'normal' is for this profession. Tbh, you may care about her a lot, but like others I don't think you've been in the relationship long enough to base the rest of your career off of what your SO wants, so figure out what you want and weigh that against what's practical. Honestly, finishing residency at 37 isn't a big deal imo. Finishing at 37 with 600k debt would make me seriously reconsider. If you work with doctors regularly, know it's your calling, and don't mind not being "rich"/having debt until you're 50-60 (maybe even 70!), then I'd say definitely go for it. Otherwise you've got a pretty tough decision to make.

If it were me and I had the experience with school that I have now, I'd do the following: I'd go to med school if I were single or in a short term relationship (less than 2-3 years or not thinking I'd end up with the girl). I don't mind living somewhat sparingly, so 600k of debt wouldn't stop me. If I were married/in a serious long-term relationship where I knew we'd get married, I probably wouldn't go if we were planning on starting a family. While I don't mind living sparingly myself, I'd like to be able to provide more financial security for my family. Whatever you decide, I think you're putting too much weight on what your gf wants and not enough on what you want for yourself. Make this decision for yourself, and if your gf is worth staying with, she'll support you one way or the other. If she won't support things that can make both of you happy, then I don't think you'd be able to have a very rewarding relationship with each other.
 
PREMED501 said:
All loans are PSLF eligible and I have 2 years in the bank already. As I mentioned above, the national guard option would cover all of my tuition and I receive 2k/month if I sign on for more time. This would hold the current debt load steady and possibly decrease balance through end of residency. Thus I would only need to borrow for cost of living. I would think after residency I could be pulling in at least $200k/year.
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Please read the following article, as well as the 99 (!) comments that follow it. It will explain all about the National Guard Scholarship program. It seems to be a lot more demanding than what you described. It's extremely complicated, and frankly, my eyes glazed over and my head exploded from trying to understand it all. I gave up, but you have a bigger stake in this, so I suggest you study it all.

Good luck! Let me know what you conclude after reading this.

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/army-national-guard-physicians/
 
PREMED501 said:
All loans are PSLF eligible and I have 2 years in the bank already. As I mentioned above, the national guard option would cover all of my tuition and I receive 2k/month if I sign on for more time. This would hold the current debt load steady and possibly decrease balance through end of residency. Thus I would only need to borrow for cost of living. I would think after residency I could be pulling in at least $200k/year.
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Have you thought about what the national guard would mean for your residency and practice afterward?

Medical school aside... do you want to marry her and have kids with her? If yes, then you should find a way to make this work for both of you. There absolutely is a way to go to med school and have a family -- tons of people do it. You can't turn back time and do it the traditional way so it's time to be creative.

If you are unsure if she is the one, then end it for both of you. You don't want to sacrifice your dream for someone who you don't want to marry, and she deserves to be with someone with the same goals as her.
 
PREMED501 said:
Thanks. I spoke to her last night about the national guard thing and she said that 90 deployment every 3-5 years is not compatible with getting married and starting a family. I wish she were more supportive. She said she could get behind it if I had way (i.e. win lottery) to finish residency 100% student debt free. Part of her problem is that she comes from family of great privilege. She has never taken out a single student loan, drives Beemer, etc. She very much has grown up in a bubble, and I am actually surprised she isn't more of a snob.
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Big red flag. Don't marry princesses.
 
Psai said:
I don't think she's being unreasonable. Op is being unreasonable by wanting to go to medical school for bad reasons when he is old and in debt
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There's a case for both. From her perspective (and her family's, probably): How is being $300k in debt + more by the end of it and not earning an income until he's 40 better than the guy who's always on-and-off unemployed, while she's working hard as a doctor to support herself, him, and the family?

From his perspective: He's achieved his dream of a respectable career and now she is trying to hold him back.
 
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