AA Canada vs AA US

[TristanB]

Hey guys I got an interesting question.

What are the differences in the AA scope of practice in Canada and the US? I heard the Canadian AA's scope of practice is considerably less. Can you do your own cases or do you just clean the equipment? I am really interested in it up here in Canada but I want a wide scope of practice thats why I am comparing the two. I also saw the pay scale for AA's here in Canada on par with RN's (looked at a hospital positions available list). So does that mean the scope of practice is pretty minor?

Just curious if I should go down south to get the scope of practice I am looking for. CRNA is not something I want, plus Canada does not have any schools for that yet.

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[SleepIsGood]

Hey guys I got an interesting question.

What are the differences in the AA scope of practice in Canada and the US? I heard the Canadian AA's scope of practice is considerably less. Can you do your own cases or do you just clean the equipment? I am really interested in it up here in Canada but I want a wide scope of practice thats why I am comparing the two. I also saw the pay scale for AA's here in Canada on par with RN's (looked at a hospital positions available list). So does that mean the scope of practice is pretty minor?

Just curious if I should go down south to get the scope of practice I am looking for. CRNA is not something I want, plus Canada does not have any schools for that yet.

Yes, it's harder work and requires MORE dedication...but there is something called MEDICAL SCHOOL. FYI medicine..it's a lot more self satisfying of a profession. Try that first.

 

[TristanB]

Sorry didnt mean to offend anyone. In canada medical school is next to impossible to get in to. It's quite ridiculous actually, almost not fair. I have thought about it, but being part of an anesthesia care team seems more interesting than spending more time in school.
Maybe this should go in the clinicians board? I just thought you guys were pro AA's therefore would know what the scope of their practice is.

 

[SleepIsGood]

Sorry didnt mean to offend anyone. In canada medical school is next to impossible to get in to. It's quite ridiculous actually, almost not fair. I have thought about it, but being part of an anesthesia care team seems more interesting than spending more time in school.
Maybe this should go in the clinicians board? I just thought you guys were pro AA's therefore would know what the scope of their practice is.

It's no less competitive here in the US. However, the superior education is what creates a better clinician-->a physician. It depends on what you want to be. The pilot (anesthesiologist) on the plane or the air hostess (other). The plane= anesthesia care team.

 

[TristanB]

Wow really stepping on peoples toes here , I did not mean to imply it was not hard to get into medical school in the US. Just I heard that Canada was a bit harder because there are less schools and such.

So do I have a wrong impression of what AA's do? I thought they were a bit higher than a hostess? I thought maybe co-pilots? Heres a situation I am interested in-Can an AA come in the middle of the night for a case and do it from start to end without an Anesthesiologist being present?

 

[jwk]

Wow really stepping on peoples toes here , I did not mean to imply it was not hard to get into medical school in the US. Just I heard that Canada was a bit harder because there are less schools and such.

So do I have a wrong impression of what AA's do? I thought they were a bit higher than a hostess? I thought maybe co-pilots? Heres a situation I am interested in-Can an AA come in the middle of the night for a case and do it from start to end without an Anesthesiologist being present?

Ignore sleepisgood - he's trying to be a pain in the ass. He is clearly clueless as to how to answer your question.

The Canadian AA concept is more of a technical assistant, not designed to be an "anesthetist" per se. Their training is much more limited than the AA in the US - 6 months or so vs 24-27 months. It's a very new concept in Canada in the last couple years or so.

AA's in the US are "dependent practitioners". We work with anesthesiologists, not independent of them. Although we do cases from start to finish, anesthesiologists are personally involved with every case, and the norm in most places is for them to be physically present for induction and emergence, and at intervals during the case. The level of involvement is a combination of state or federal requirements, the way the case is billed, and local custom, but AA's generally would not be starting cases by themselves, although provisions in both federal and state laws allow them to do so in emergencies.

Canadian AA's would not be able to practice in the US. There are very specific requirements for US AA's to be able to practice, including completing an approved AA educational program at a master's degree level and successfully passing the NCCAA certification examination.

I don't know exactly how the Canadian programs are set up, but there have been some early discussions about modeling them more closely to the American AA type of program. There is also some discussion of the possibility of nurse anesthetists in Canada, but unlike the US, indications are that they would be 100% supervised by an anesthesiologist and not allowed to function independently.

Have you looked at the websites for the Canadian AA programs? Here's the one I'm familiar with:

http://www.tru.ca/distance/programs/health_sci/anesth.html

 

[leviathan]

Ignore sleepisgood - he's trying to be a pain in the ass. He is clearly clueless as to how to answer your question.

The Canadian AA concept is more of a technical assistant, not designed to be an "anesthetist" per se. Their training is much more limited than the AA in the US - 6 months or so vs 24-27 months. It's a very new concept in Canada in the last couple years or so.

AA's in the US are "dependent practitioners". We work with anesthesiologists, not independent of them. Although we do cases from start to finish, anesthesiologists are personally involved with every case, and the norm in most places is for them to be physically present for induction and emergence, and at intervals during the case. The level of involvement is a combination of state or federal requirements, the way the case is billed, and local custom, but AA's generally would not be starting cases by themselves, although provisions in both federal and state laws allow them to do so in emergencies.

Canadian AA's would not be able to practice in the US. There are very specific requirements for US AA's to be able to practice, including completing an approved AA educational program at a master's degree level and successfully passing the NCCAA certification examination.

I don't know exactly how the Canadian programs are set up, but there have been some early discussions about modeling them more closely to the American AA type of program. There is also some discussion of the possibility of nurse anesthetists in Canada, but unlike the US, indications are that they would be 100% supervised by an anesthesiologist and not allowed to function independently.

Have you looked at the websites for the Canadian AA programs? Here's the one I'm familiar with:

http://www.tru.ca/distance/programs/health_sci/anesth.html

I went to TRU before I did medicine for their RT program, and have nothing but great things to say about how challenging and rewarding it was. AAs up here essentially prep the room prior to surgery, and will often intubate, start IVs, art. lines, and do other odds and ends to prepare the patient. I'm not sure if/how they assist perioperatively, but it is nothing like their American counterparts who actually are physician extenders. AAs up here do require either nursing education + ICU experience, or a degree in RT plus a bit of experience. I wouldn't recommend going the AA route, as it doesn't seem very interesting, compared to just being a respiratory therapist. If you (the OP) do want to go the RT route, afterwards I would recommend looking into the cardiovascular perfusionist program instead, which seems a lot more technical and demanding.

All that said, you should still try for medicine and hope to get in. You could go my route and do the RT program, and your marks will be good if you enjoy it, which will help you get into medicine. It will also give you a huge leg-up when learning respiratory physiology + pulmonology. 😉

 

[TristanB]

I was not even aware TRU had that program. That makes 3 I am aware of, michener, fanshawe and now TRU.

I am in an BScN program, I thought it would improve my chances for medical school and if not atleast offer a rewarding career. But I heard that RN to MD is a hell of a lot harder than some science degree to MD because they don't want to take away from the shortage or some weird reason like that.

I would love to be an MD, just not cut out for it marks wise after nursing school artsy fartsy classes cut me up. I'm better in sciences.

 

[drgopoos]

Just my one cent !! I am in canada and working in anesthesia

The AA program in canada is lot simpler NOW when we compare it to CRNA in usa.
But there are already lots in discussion to increase the scope of AA. THey are now allowed to manage General anesthesia cases but under the supervision of the anesthesiologist. This is only going to increase and i see that the AA in our hospital love their work and they are amzing people.
THey also have a lot to contribute in terms of working the ICU.
THe new born in our hospital is managed by AA.

 

[TristanB]

Thats really interesting. I wonder by the time I get a shot at an AA school in Canada it might be completely different from what we are discussing now. Do any of them have no work experience needed and just a degree in Canada? The three I mentioned before definetly do, but there could be more out there.

drgopoos-Do you work as an AA or Anesthesiologist?

What are the average GPA's for AA school? like off the scale high?

 

[CanGas]

Hell no! You want that degree of responsibility you are gonna need an MD. Hopefully that will always be the case in Canada. We have a pretty good established history of GP's getting an extra year of Anesthesia residency and then covers the smaller hospitals in their communities. I think this is a better situation than bringing in other non-MD providers. I think my 4 years of MD school, 5 years of residency and a year straight studying for my Royal College exam makes me more qualified than someone with 6 mo training. Heck, the more I know, the more I realize I don't know. Current maximum level for an AA independence is run the eye/lithotripsy room (eg. 50 fent, 1 midaz) but an anesthesiologist still signs the charts. Often more of a supporting role, set up lines, change over circuit, human monitor, ect. Some places you will do art lines, occasional intubation under supervision. Quebec, not even art lines - more a human monitor, able to give drugs, ect.

CanGas

Heres a situation I am interested in-Can an AA come in the middle of the night for a case and do it from start to end without an Anesthesiologist being present?

 

[leviathan]

Hell no! You want that degree of responsibility you are gonna need an MD. Hopefully that will always be the case in Canada. We have a pretty good established history of GP's getting an extra year of Anesthesia residency and then covers the smaller hospitals in their communities. I think this is a better situation than bringing in other non-MD providers. I think my 4 years of MD school, 5 years of residency and a year straight studying for my Royal College exam makes me more qualified than someone with 6 mo training.

To be fair, the RT + AA route would give you about 4 years of training which is very focused on anaesthesiology. I'm definitely not arguing they should ever have the responsibility of an anaesthesiologist, but perhaps they could have similar responsibilities of the AAs in the US after a bit of a program extension, and under supervision of an MD.

 

[drgopoos]

Thats really interesting. I wonder by the time I get a shot at an AA school in Canada it might be completely different from what we are discussing now. Do any of them have no work experience needed and just a degree in Canada? The three I mentioned before definetly do, but there could be more out there.

drgopoos-Do you work as an AA or Anesthesiologist?

What are the average GPA's for AA school? like off the scale high?

The future of AA is being changed and i can say from highly reliable sources that its for good and AA will have more important role in anesthesia.

I dont know what path to take as an not an AA.
What i have learned from them is that they initially become RT and then take another course of many weeks to become AA s .
Again the training program is going to be changed to give them better experience.
At time i have an AA posted with me in the room as a trainee.

Gopa