Canada anesthesia labor shortage

[AKMD_1984]

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Buddy you mixed up ontario with canada a few posts ago. I'm good

I did absolutely. And then corrected it. The point still stands though. Its not an equivalent market to US.
You like Canada - good, enjoy it.

 

[AKMD_1984]

https://thoughtleadership.rbc.com/canadas-growth-challenge-why-the-economy-is-stuck-in-neutral/

 

[deleted87051]

https://thoughtleadership.rbc.com/canadas-growth-challenge-why-the-economy-is-stuck-in-neutral/

Interesting link.

This section confuses me.

“A large and growing public sector is less productive

Canada’s large public sector education and healthcare industries are much less productive than in the U.S. by 70% and 50%, respectively. and accounting for a fifth of the total economy productivity gap despite only accounting for 14% of the economy.

However, it is also notoriously difficult to measure productivity in the public sector, where there are often no market transactions. Much of Canada’s underperformance in measured productivity in healthcare and education (essentially the market value of services over the number of hours worked) versus the U.S. disappears when broader outcomes of those systems are considered. Life expectancies in Canada are longer, and preventable deaths are lower. A larger share of the population over the age of 65 is in good health. And the Canadian healthcare system costs just over half as much as the U.S. on a per-capita basis to achieve those outcomes. In education, Canadian students (15 year-olds) rank close to the top of the OECD (and above the U.S.) in math, science, and reading scores.“


Seems like they are valuing the wrong thing when they put so much emphasis on productivity. What’s the “market value” of living longer or reading better? What’s wrong with doing less and getting better results?

 

[aneftp]

Question for real Canadian anesthesia docs. Have you notice any of your colleagues doing more locums in the USA especially border states like Michigan or upstate New York since there is huge demand for locums docs? Thus leaving Canada even shorter?

The above article really is a propaganda by the AANA to expand crnas to Canada. We are already short anesthesia providers in the USA.

 

[PpfSuxTube]

Have you notice any of your colleagues doing more locums in the USA

0, now or ever

 

[aneftp]

0, now or ever

I assume you have been in practice after 2000. Many of my parents colleagues Did random work across border towns in the 1990s medicine specialists because Canada didn’t pay as well.

Just different generations. 1 in 9 Canada’s docs practice in the USA back than. So to say never ever means you have no financial incentive to cross to the USA to work. But back than. There was every incentive

Shifting tides in the emigration patterns of Canadian physicians to the United States: a cross-sectional secondary data analysis - BMC Health Services Research

Background The relative ease of movement of physicians across the Canada/US border has led to what is sometimes referred to as a ‘brain drain’ and previous analysis estimated that the equivalent of two graduating classes from Canadian medical schools were leaving to practice in the US each year...

bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com

“Beginning in the early 1990s the number of CMGs locating in the U.S. reached an all-time high and then abruptly dropped off in 1995. CMGs are going to the US for post-graduate training in smaller numbers and, are less likely to remain than at any time since the 1970’s.”

 

[PpfSuxTube]

I assume you have been in practice after 2000. Many of my parents colleagues Did random work across border towns in the 1990s medicine specialists because Canada didn’t pay as well.

Just different generations. 1 in 9 Canada’s docs practice in the USA back than. So to say never ever means you have no financial incentive to cross to the USA to work. But back than. There was every incentive

Shifting tides in the emigration patterns of Canadian physicians to the United States: a cross-sectional secondary data analysis - BMC Health Services Research

Background The relative ease of movement of physicians across the Canada/US border has led to what is sometimes referred to as a ‘brain drain’ and previous analysis estimated that the equivalent of two graduating classes from Canadian medical schools were leaving to practice in the US each year...

bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com

“Beginning in the early 1990s the number of CMGs locating in the U.S. reached an all-time high and then abruptly dropped off in 1995. CMGs are going to the US for post-graduate training in smaller numbers and, are less likely to remain than at any time since the 1970’s.”

I mean yes of course I wasn't working 26 years ago. Apologies i do recall 1. In the last 10 yrs, only 1 anesthesia has relocated to US to work that I know of. Plenty surgeons have for sure, just not anesthesia. Your crna problem is too much, your wages aren't that much better. The figures you read about aren't always the final number.

Our surgeons leave in droves however as the gap is huge for them

 

[aneftp]

I mean yes of course I wasn't working 26 years ago. Apologies i do recall 1. In the last 10 yrs, only 1 anesthesia has relocated to US to work that I know of. Plenty surgeons have for sure, just not anesthesia. Your crna problem is too much, your wages aren't that much better. The figures you read about aren't always the final number.

Our surgeons leave in droves however as the gap is huge for them

Yeah, I was just wondering since the anesthesia market was actually bad from 2010-2020 for USA anesthesia docs and good for Canadian Anesthesiologist.

But the market is completely different for USA Anesthesiologist the past 3-4 years. Just wondering if Canadian Anesthesia docs make the jump back to the USA for locums work.

So not many anesthesia docs are coming to the USA than.

 

[PpfSuxTube]

Yeah, I was just wondering since the anesthesia market was actually bad from 2010-2020 for USA anesthesia docs and good for Canadian Anesthesiologist.

But the market is completely different for USA Anesthesiologist the past 3-4 years. Just wondering if Canadian Anesthesia docs make the jump back to the USA for locums work.

So not many anesthesia docs are coming to the USA than.

I would slightly disagree with your 2010 to 2020 assessment but yes I do agree not many anesthesia move south currently.
10 years ago most here needed the 5 yr frcpc and a additional yr fellowship to land a plush job. Now most are hired out of residency, and will for the foreseeable future as the work force ages out

 

[deleted87051]

We had half a dozen Canadian faculty in our department in Southern California in the 1990s.

 

[AKMD_1984]

Interesting link.

This section confuses me.

“A large and growing public sector is less productive

Canada’s large public sector education and healthcare industries are much less productive than in the U.S. by 70% and 50%, respectively. and accounting for a fifth of the total economy productivity gap despite only accounting for 14% of the economy.

However, it is also notoriously difficult to measure productivity in the public sector, where there are often no market transactions. Much of Canada’s underperformance in measured productivity in healthcare and education (essentially the market value of services over the number of hours worked) versus the U.S. disappears when broader outcomes of those systems are considered. Life expectancies in Canada are longer, and preventable deaths are lower. A larger share of the population over the age of 65 is in good health. And the Canadian healthcare system costs just over half as much as the U.S. on a per-capita basis to achieve those outcomes. In education, Canadian students (15 year-olds) rank close to the top of the OECD (and above the U.S.) in math, science, and reading scores.“


Seems like they are valuing the wrong thing when they put so much emphasis on productivity. What’s the “market value” of living longer or reading better? What’s wrong with doing less and getting better results?

Quality over quantity.

Competition regarding longevity/ life expectancy/ age of death at 77 vs 79 is like fighting with the guy next to you on the plane that’s about to crash and wishing you had his window seat. I’d be concerned if there was a 10-12 year age gap, but US is a big country and it’s hard to administer policy to its heterogenous population with political differences. Canada is not like that. It’s more of a European commonwealth.

Maybe it has to do with better preventive care and more expensive junk food. I must say Canada focuses on preventive care a lot which is a good thing.

Also, we have an income bias as anesthesiologists. Our income level generally will not make us feel financial challenges that 90% of the population faces.

Ask someone how they’re surviving on a 80-90k salary in GTA. Most of my high school friends and college non physician friends are in this boat.

Everything is relatively expensive - cars, car insurance!!! Disposable items etc. impossible to do lateral transfers and job change. Literally 2000 applications for basic job opportunities. My friends from high school have basically held the same jobs for 15 years and stagnant salaries and they’ve tried multiple times to make a lateral moves or transfer but are afraid of “ruffling feathers” and losing their current position.

I once asked my friend do they have a brokerage account and they said what’s that. They’re barely contributing to their pension. They’re relying on sale of their home and pension for retirement.

Difficult and capital intensive to start a business.
Basic things like landscaping materials are expensive.

They call their 2 car garage homes as single detached homes. We call them townhomes. These cookie cutter things cost 1.5 million in nice areas.

There is a lot that’s not being shared here and it’s not all rosy at it seems.

 

[PpfSuxTube]

Quality over quantity.

Competition regarding longevity/ life expectancy/ age of death at 77 vs 79 is like fighting with the guy next to you on the plane that’s about to crash and wishing you had his window seat. I’d be concerned if there was a 10-12 year age gap, but US is a big country and it’s hard to administer policy to its heterogenous population with political differences. Canada is not like that. It’s more of a European commonwealth.

Maybe it has to do with better preventive care and more expensive junk food. I must say Canada focuses on preventive care a lot which is a good thing.

Also, we have an income bias as anesthesiologists. Our income level generally will not make us feel financial challenges that 90% of the population faces.

Ask someone how they’re surviving on a 80-90k salary in GTA. Most of my high school friends and college non physician friends are in this boat.

Everything is relatively expensive - cars, car insurance!!! Disposable items etc. impossible to do lateral transfers and job change. Literally 2000 applications for basic job opportunities. My friends from high school have basically held the same jobs for 15 years and stagnant salaries and they’ve tried multiple times to make a lateral moves or transfer but are afraid of “ruffling feathers” and losing their current position.

I once asked my friend do they have a brokerage account and they said what’s that. They’re barely contributing to their pension. They’re relying on sale of their home and pension for retirement.

Difficult and capital intensive to start a business.
Basic things like landscaping materials are expensive.

They call their 2 car garage homes as single detached homes. We call them townhomes. These cookie cutter things cost 1.5 million in nice areas.

There is a lot that’s not being shared here and it’s not all rosy at it seems.

Im happy to engage with you on this very nuanced topic but you do make it difficult when you use anecdotes.

For example how is anyone surviving in NYC or Melbourne, London, milan on 80k?

No one is saying canadian economy is rosy, literally no one. Everyone is doom and gloom about it, since trumps tariffs appeared. The housing bubble in gta/vanc is obscene, but they both keep growing since forever. Something is driving that probably a lot of illegal money.

Lots of ppl are very aware of retirement savings plans here. True some do use their homes for that.

But canada is a great place to live and work. You can't just concentrate an entire country down into gdppc or some other single metric.