AAMC SJT Situation Judgemental Test

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misslonghornxo

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Hi! Could you provide me more information on the AAMC SJT test? How does the AAMC SJT factor into admission? Does the score expire? How many times is the test given? Thanks!
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misslonghornxo said:
Hi! Could you provide me more information on the AAMC SJT test? How does the AAMC SJT factor into admission? Does the score expire? How many times is the test given? Thanks!
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This seems like AAMC attempting to develop an internal mechanism to replicate the results of, evaluate the validity of, and combat the use of CASPER. Good. Some form of SJT would be great, but it should be internal as opposed to CASPER.
 
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If this replaces CASPER, then by all means AAMC. Do your thing.
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how do they have enough data to correlate performance in medical school to performance on these situational judgement tests?
 
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I participated in the study they just did on the SJT. They asked us to take it in exchange for an Amazon gift card. I just received the results. Apparently there is a "right" answer to some of the questions, because it gave me a percentile score.
 
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LadyGlen said:
I participated in the study they just did on the SJT. They asked us to take it in exchange for an Amazon gift card. I just received the results. Apparently there is a "right" answer to some of the questions, because it gave me a percentile score.
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I now definitely want AAMC SJT to replace CASPER. They give you your damn score!
 
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gyngyn said:
How I loathe Casper.
How I doubt the AAMC can do better.
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At least the AAMC version didn't involve ridiculous videos and trying to type at warp speed. Still seems like a useless test though.
 
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gyngyn said:
How I loathe Casper.
How I doubt the AAMC can do better.
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Schools just need another metric to rank their applicants I guess. I have strong doubts about how useful computer based ethics tests are, but if I have to do one, at least let it not be a typing test.
 
Casper and SJT are a direct result of the mentality of ‘apply to however many you can afford.’ With that, schools now get several thousand applications that they cannot properly screen by hand. It is a self induced problem and it reflects the same thing that has happened to the match...
 
MemeLord said:
Casper and SJT are a direct result of the mentality of ‘apply to however many you can afford... it reflects the same thing that has happened to the match...
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genuinely curious, but what does that mean? what happened to the match?
 
ricksimmonsrafowens said:
genuinely curious, but what does that mean? what happened to the match?
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At least in competitive specialties *at least according to conversations I have had* people will literally just list every single program in a specialty (>50) in hopes to match one.
 
MemeLord said:
At least in competitive specialties *at least according to conversations I have had* people will literally just list every single program in a specialty (>50) in hopes to match one.
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yes, personally I applied to every single program in my specialty, and so did others who were applying to competitive specialties (or small specialties - like combined IM/EM, Triple Board, etc). what's wrong with that?
 
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MemeLord said:
At least in competitive specialties *at least according to conversations I have had* people will literally just list every single program in a specialty (>50) in hopes to match one.
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I heard the average person marching into neurosurg had around 16 interviews.
 
ClamShell said:
I heard the average person marching into neurosurg had around 16 interviews.
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these programs may have 1-3 spots/year but then they interview everyone and everyone's mom (like 50+ people for 1-3 spots). So that necessitates going on a large number of interviews to ensure a match.
 
ricksimmonsrafowens said:
yes, personally I applied to every single program in my specialty, and so did others who were applying to competitive specialties (or small specialties - like combined IM/EM, Triple Board, etc). what's wrong with that?
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Applying to more and more residencies yields extraordinarily reduced results.


However, by applying to increased residencies, programs will now have more applicants they have to screen with the same number of staff. This causes them to increasingly focus on ‘objective’ metrics such as STEP1 and research achievements which then drives up the competitiveness of the specialty and it then acts as a feedback loop.

The same thing is happening with medical schools. Schools use ‘objective’ measures to screen the applicants as opposed to manually investing in every applicant.

This makes it so that students who are borderline but would otherwise have a compelling story/compelling case to not make it. This disproportionately affects those from lower SES backgrounds and URM status.
 
ricksimmonsrafowens said:
yes, personally I applied to every single program in my specialty, and so did others who were applying to competitive specialties (or small specialties - like combined IM/EM, Triple Board, etc). what's wrong with that?
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Do residency applications have anything similar to secondaries? Where you have to give additional essays or payments for each program?
 
ricksimmonsrafowens said:
these programs may have 1-3 spots/year but then they interview everyone and everyone's mom (like 50+ people for 1-3 spots). So that necessitates going on a large number of interviews to ensure a match.
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And the reason they interview 50+ applicants for 1-3 spots is because everyone is applying to every program and applicants at this point all look the same on paper. It is part of that feedback loop.
 
LadyGlen said:
I participated in the study they just did on the SJT. They asked us to take it in exchange for an Amazon gift card. I just received the results. Apparently there is a "right" answer to some of the questions, because it gave me a percentile score.
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What's your percentile score? I didn't take the survey seriously. Do you think the percentile score affect our application or admission in anyway?
 
MemeLord said:
And the reason they interview 50+ applicants for 1-3 spots is because everyone is applying to every program and applicants at this point all look the same on paper. It is part of that feedback loop.
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Imagine if here was a cap - you can ONLY apply to 15 medical schools or you can ONLY apply to 15 residencies etc. The workload would be less on the residency programs so you would be more likely to be noticed by the ones you really want to go to and you would actually have to put some thought in to your list.
 
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MemeLord said:
Imagine if here was a cap - you can ONLY apply to 15 medical schools or you can ONLY apply to 15 residencies etc. The workload would be less on the residency programs so you would be more likely to be noticed by the ones you really want to go to and you would actually have to put some thought in to your list.
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Unlikely to happen. Med schools generate a lot of revenue from secondary fees. And the cost of evaluating more students isn’t that high because you just have stricter post-secondary requirements.
 
ClamShell said:
Unlikely to happen. Med schools generate a lot of revenue from secondary fees.
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Not really. A million dollars from 10,000 applicants but you need 15 full time staff for 4 months plus an additional 40 staff spread across 20 different interview days plus the 7 full time admissions staff year round. Plus annual ACME accreditation fees and so on so forth. Schools don’t generate a lot of revenue off of secondary fees.
 
MemeLord said:
Not really. A million dollars from 10,000 applicants but you need 15 full time staff for 4 months plus an additional 40 staff spread across 20 different interview days plus the 7 full time admissions staff year round. Plus annual ACME accreditation fees and so on so forth. Schools don’t generate a lot of revenue off of secondary fees.
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Well AAMC has nothing to gain by limiting the number of schools a student can apply to.
 
ClamShell said:
Do residency applications have anything similar to secondaries? Where you have to give additional essays or payments for each program?
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no, I have never seen this in the specialty I applied to. I think in plastic surgery it is common to have a "secondary application" following primary ERAS submission though - I think they usually ask for a brief statement of interest in their program. I also think some programs that emphasize "fit" in fields such as family medicine (such as programs with a religious affiliation or a specific mission) may ask for a personal statement that states why you're interested in attending that program.

MemeLord said:
Applying to more and more residencies yields extraordinarily reduced results.


However, by applying to increased residencies, programs will now have more applicants they have to screen with the same number of staff. This causes them to increasingly focus on ‘objective’ metrics such as STEP1 and research achievements which then drives up the competitiveness of the specialty and it then acts as a feedback loop.

The same thing is happening with medical schools. Schools use ‘objective’ measures to screen the applicants as opposed to manually investing in every applicant.

This makes it so that students who are borderline but would otherwise have a compelling story/compelling case to not make it. This disproportionately affects those from lower SES backgrounds and URM status.
Click to expand...

I can't comment on issue of screening in medical school applications because the volume of applications is so high, but the issue of overapplying for residency programs is not a big deal and does not make a huge impact on how competitive different specialties are. Not even derm programs that can fill with 260+ Step 1 applicants (literally) screen above an average Step 1 score. If you're an AMG, most FM/peds/community IM programs will be happy to interview you with a barely passing Step 1 without a screen. Why is "screening" on research achievements a negative thing? I'm not even a huge research person, but field-specific research does demonstrate a dedication and passion for the field, which is something PDs highly value. Also, not that many programs screen on that and usually if you're not interested in research, the programs that do screen on research would be a bad fit for you and you for them.
 
MemeLord said:
And the reason they interview 50+ applicants for 1-3 spots is because everyone is applying to every program and applicants at this point all look the same on paper. It is part of that feedback loop.
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programs overinterview because programs don't want to go unmatched, so some "insecure" PDs will interview 50+ applicants for 1-3 spots and some confident PDs will interview 12 applicants for the same number of spots. applicants for residency don't really look the same, especially in smaller fields where the overapplication is common (neurosurg, plastics, ortho).... it's not like medical school admissions. These applicants tend to have diverse research interests, scholastic achievements, letters of rec, mentors, etc...
 
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ClamShell said:
Do residency applications have anything similar to secondaries? Where you have to give additional essays or payments for each program?
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ENT programs instituted a requirement for a program-specific "love letter" two years ago.
I believe they had 18 unfilled spots that year...
 
MemeLord said:
Imagine if here was a cap - you can ONLY apply to 15 medical schools or you can ONLY apply to 15 residencies etc. The workload would be less on the residency programs so you would be more likely to be noticed by the ones you really want to go to and you would actually have to put some thought in to your list.
Click to expand...

there's no point in limiting # of residency applications. all you'll do is hurt weak students with red flags (like pre-clinical course failures, low steps, etc) who need to apply to a lot of programs to interview sufficiently and match.
 
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gyngyn said:
ENT programs instituted a requirement for a program-specific "love letter" two years ago.
I believe they had 18 unfilled spots that year...
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Is the love letter still required nowadays? If so, do you know if they still had unfilled spots after that year?
 
premedalt said:
Is the love letter still required nowadays? If so, do you know if they still had unfilled spots after that year?
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I think ENT had 0 unfilled spots this year. There were almost 80-100 more USMD applicants than spots this year. I don't think they require the love letter anymore... it was more like a paragraph unique to each program describing your interest in the program.
 
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MemeLord said:
Not really. A million dollars from 10,000 applicants but you need 15 full time staff for 4 months plus an additional 40 staff spread across 20 different interview days plus the 7 full time admissions staff year round. Plus annual ACME accreditation fees and so on so forth. Schools don’t generate a lot of revenue off of secondary fees.
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Not unless you screen.

You basically send everyone a secondary and auto-reject any ORM below a 505 or 3.2.

That’s at least a thousand extra secondary fees with minimal effort.
 
ClamShell said:
Unlikely to happen. Med schools generate a lot of revenue from secondary fees. And the cost of evaluating more students isn’t that high because you just have stricter post-secondary requirements.
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What secondary fees go to medical schools!?
They go to parent institutions.
 
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ClamShell said:
But then who pays for the office space and salaries of the paid admissions staff?
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Educational/Student Affairs budget. This is derived from multiple sources including research, clinical revenue and donor funds.
 
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gyngyn said:
Educational/Student Affairs budget. This is derived from multiple sources including research, clinical revenue and donor funds.
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Thank you.

I apologize for my comments earlier about secondary feeds and for jumping to conclusions. I was wrong.
 
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ClamShell said:
Thank you.

I apologize for my comments earlier about secondary feeds and for jumping to conclusions. I was wrong.
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I'm going to piggyback on this apology with retracting my earlier comments about the match. I am not sure if my hypothesis applies to med school admissions, but I can see that my opinions of the match were shaped too heavily by disgruntled under-performing MS1s and MS2s.
 
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MemeLord said:
I'm going to piggyback on this apology with retracting my earlier comments about the match. I am not sure if my hypothesis applies to med school admissions, but I can see that my opinions of the match were shaped too heavily by disgruntled under-performing MS1s and MS2s.
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Brah.... make your own apology lol
 
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got 95th percentile on this, honestly no clue how. Happy I got 25 bucks though :)
 
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