AAVMC Data 2012-2013

[Minnerbelle]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Have we discussed this one on this forum? I don't remember seeing it before. It's not that any of this information was a surprise, but it's kind of sobering to see the numbers.

In the last decade (as of 2013), we increased the number of vet graduates by almost 700 vets per year! And tuition has gone up an insane amount overall in the same time period.

And attrition rate has gone up from 0.04% to 1.8% between the class of 2012 and 2015 (and note that the 1.8% is only after first year for the class of 2015, whereas I think 0.04% is overall throughout 4 years for the class of 2012). This really puts things into perspective. Back when I was looking into vet schools circa 2008-2010, attrition was almost never heard of. But by the time I was a first year in the class of 2014, posters were reporting so many people leaving their classes.

 

[DVMDream]

Would be interesting to poll students who have left and determine why the attrition rate has gone up... Is it due to medical/health issues, failing out, not wanting to continue vet school, cost of school, etc...

 

[DVMDream]

I also find it interesting that for the resident tuition data they exclude UPenn... .what reason would there be to exclude UPenn... I understand why Tufts and Western were left off, but odd they left out UPenn.

 

[NStarz]

Have we discussed this one on this forum? I don't remember seeing it before. It's not that any of this information was a surprise, but it's kind of sobering to see the numbers.

In the last decade (as of 2013), we increased the number of vet graduates by almost 700 vets per year! And tuition has gone up an insane amount overall in the same time period.

And attrition rate has gone up from 0.04% to 1.8% between the class of 2012 and 2015 (and note that the 1.8% is only after first year for the class of 2015, whereas I think 0.04% is overall throughout 4 years for the class of 2012). This really puts things into perspective. Back when I was looking into vet schools circa 2008-2010, attrition was almost never heard of. But by the time I was a first year in the class of 2014, posters were reporting so many people leaving their classes.

I wonder if the increase in attrition has to do with the (sorry) lower quality of students that are being accepted? If new vet schools are opening left and right, more students are being accepted that would otherwise not have been and may not be able to cut it once they get into vet school. Something else to consider, do those attrition rates include the Caribbean schools once they were accredited (which probably superficially increase the attrition rates as well)?

 

[pp9]

I wonder if the increase in attrition has to do with the (sorry) lower quality of students that are being accepted? If new vet schools are opening left and right, more students are being accepted that would otherwise not have been and may not be able to cut it once they get into vet school. Something else to consider, do those attrition rates include the Caribbean schools once they were accredited (which probably superficially increase the attrition rates as well)?

I've been chatting with a few current students at one established US school in particular, and a lot of students are failing out there as well. I guess "a lot" is subjective, but to me, several students in one class is a lot. Maybe it's normal for each class to lose a handful due to grades alone, but it seems like the whole point of being selective in admission offers is to avoid that.

From what it looks like on my end of things, schools are dropping standards for OOS applicants/increasing seats. You'd think it would be harder to compete for an OOS seat, considering numbers alone, but that isn't always the case.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Something else to consider, do those attrition rates include the Caribbean schools once they were accredited (which probably superficially increase the attrition rates as well)?

The report says it surveyed the 28 US colleges, which doesn't include the international schools.

 

[WildZoo]

I also find it interesting that for the resident tuition data they exclude UPenn... .what reason would there be to exclude UPenn... I understand why Tufts and Western were left off, but odd they left out UPenn.

Just musing here but...
maybe it threw off the mean too much?
Or, maybe they didn't include it because technically resident tuition is the same as non-resident, PA residents just receive a $10,000 grant per year.

 

[WildZoo]

I've been chatting with a few current students at one established US school in particular, and a lot of students are failing out there as well. I guess "a lot" is subjective, but to me, several students in one class is a lot. Maybe it's normal for each class to lose a handful due to grades alone, but it seems like the whole point of being selective in admission offers is to avoid that.

From what it looks like on my end of things, schools are dropping standards for OOS applicants/increasing seats. You'd think it would be harder to compete for an OOS seat, considering numbers alone, but that isn't always the case.

Increasing seats does not necessarily mean dropping standards. I mean, if you look at the average GPA it has been steadily increasing.

 

[pp9]

Increasing seats does not necessarily mean dropping standards. I mean, if you look at the average GPA it has been steadily increasing.

Right, but certain schools are increasing seats while dropping standards. Or, if they're not dropping, they're at least lower than you'd expect for a larger pool compared to IS. Not all schools function that way, though. Is it Georgia and Wisconsin with few OOS seats and crazy competition for them?

 

[dyachei]

I've been chatting with a few current students at one established US school in particular, and a lot of students are failing out there as well. I guess "a lot" is subjective, but to me, several students in one class is a lot. Maybe it's normal for each class to lose a handful due to grades alone, but it seems like the whole point of being selective in admission offers is to avoid that.

From what it looks like on my end of things, schools are dropping standards for OOS applicants/increasing seats. You'd think it would be harder to compete for an OOS seat, considering numbers alone, but that isn't always the case.

If you're talking about 1 school, let's not extrapolate to all of them. Because it's likely inaccurate for all vet schools.

Until actual research is done (and not just anecdotal evidence), I would be hesitant to claim anything about rising attrition rates.

 

[WildZoo]

Right, but certain schools are increasing seats while dropping standards. Or, if they're not dropping, they're at least lower than you'd expect for a larger pool compared to IS. Not all schools function that way, though. Is it Georgia and Wisconsin with few OOS seats and crazy competition for them?

Guess I chose the wrong OOS schools to apply to 😉
Georgia yes, Wisconsin I'm not sure but it would make sense because a ton of people apply there OOS because of the relatively low tuition. NC State also has higher academic standards for OOS and only about 20-25 seats. UT I'm not sure if the standards are different but it's 700+ applicants for 25 seats OOS so you're most likely going to have a tougher time getting past stage one and two if you're OOS. I would think in most cases even if there aren't stated standards, if your OOS applicant pool is larger than IS and you have fewer OOS seats, the competition alone will drive the average OOS stats up at any particular school. What that means for OOS stats across the country i wouldn't know, since they didn't split up the data that way.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Just musing here but...
maybe it threw off the mean too much?
Or, maybe they didn't include it because technically resident tuition is the same as non-resident, PA residents just receive a $10,000 grant per year.

I think mostly the latter. Tufts IS people get a small grant per year as well, but essentially not much different from the OOS tuition. So they're the 3 outliers. They report only maximum, minimum, and median, so I think it just really distorts the maximum though I guess the median may go up some too.

 

[pp9]

If you're talking about 1 school, let's not extrapolate to all of them. Because it's likely inaccurate for all vet schools.

Until actual research is done (and not just anecdotal evidence), I would be hesitant to claim anything about rising attrition rates.

It was a direct response to NStarz wondering if it were non-US schools affecting the data. I was providing an example to show that it's not just non-US schools that lose students, INB4 Minnerbelle popped in saying the survey was US schools only. I wasn't implying that it was the case for all schools. To be honest, I was surprised to hear that so many students fail out (before considering students that left for other reasons). We spend so much time trying to be academically competitive to avoid that. I get that vet school is a different world from undergrad, but it's still strange to me.

Guess I chose the wrong OOS schools to apply to 😉
Georgia yes, Wisconsin I'm not sure but it would make sense because a ton of people apply there OOS because of the relatively low tuition. NC State also has higher academic standards for OOS and only about 20-25 seats. UT I'm not sure if the standards are different but it's 700+ applicants for 25 seats OOS so you're most likely going to have a tougher time getting past stage one and two if you're OOS. I would think in most cases even if there aren't stated standards, if your OOS applicant pool is larger than IS and you have fewer OOS seats, the competition alone will drive the average OOS stats up at any particular school. What that means for OOS stats across the country i wouldn't know, since they didn't split up the data that way.

Yeah, that's what I mean when I say the OOS stats are always lower than I'd expect. You'd think any OOS student would have a much tougher time getting accepted OOS (especially if they get no IS love), but you know yourself that's not the case. More students applying OOS means the school can pick their cream of the crop. Either that doesn't happen, or OOS student stats themselves are dropping (not that schools are dropping standards). Unfortunately, none of the schools I've researched separate IS and OOS when they post the stats of the selected class, so I can't go back and see if things are dropping over time for OOS, but yeah, average GPA seems to go up by a few decimal points each year. There are a lot of variables that make all of this comparing pretty hard to do, too...

 

[dyachei]

It was a direct response to NStarz wondering if it were non-US schools affecting the data. I was providing an example to show that it's not just non-US schools that lose students, INB4 Minnerbelle popped in saying the survey was US schools only. I wasn't implying that it was the case for all schools. To be honest, I was surprised to hear that so many students fail out (before considering students that left for other reasons). We spend so much time trying to be academically competitive to avoid that. I get that vet school is a different world from undergrad, but it's still strange to me.

You don't really get that it's different until you're there. Seriously. No one does.

You fail out because you're in 7-8 different classes a semester with multiple tests, quizzes, and assignments. And your study methods may no longer be effective at that level. Some of the material is more challenging but even if it's not, there's a lot more of it. You can be academically superior in undergrad and have it not translate to vet school.

I really wish I could make pre-vets understand this.

 

[pp9]

You don't really get that it's different until you're there. Seriously. No one does.

You fail out because you're in 7-8 different classes a semester with multiple tests, quizzes, and assignments. And your study methods may no longer be effective at that level. Some of the material is more challenging but even if it's not, there's a lot more of it. You can be academically superior in undergrad and have it not translate to vet school.

I really wish I could make pre-vets understand this.

Well I do know those things. Just because I'm not experiencing it doesn't mean I'm not aware that it's happening. I just think it's hard to hear that students are legitimately failing out. Not that they are doing poorly, barely skating by, getting 2.0's, whatever. But that they are doing so poorly consistently that they are asked to leave the program. It's my understanding that your typically not kicked out for failing one of two courses. Isn't it three total, or one really bad semester?

 

[WildZoo]

You don't really get that it's different until you're there. Seriously. No one does.

You fail out because you're in 7-8 different classes a semester with multiple tests, quizzes, and assignments. And your study methods may no longer be effective at that level. Some of the material is more challenging but even if it's not, there's a lot more of it. You can be academically superior in undergrad and have it not translate to vet school.

I really wish I could make pre-vets understand this.

Someone on the Penn tour described it as getting hit in the face with a firehose of information. Super excited for that...lol

 

[dyachei]

Well I do know those things. Just because I'm not experiencing it doesn't mean I'm not aware that it's happening. I just think it's hard to hear that students are legitimately failing out. Not that they are doing poorly, barely skating by, getting 2.0's, whatever. But that they are doing so poorly consistently that they are asked to leave the program. It's my understanding that your typically not kicked out for failing one of two courses. Isn't it three total, or one really bad semester?

No, you intellectually know that these things happen, but you don't know it. It all depends on the school. Most will let you repeat semesters or years. some let you make up courses. Some people fail a course and don't want to return. Every school handles it differently.

 

[WildZoo]

Well I do know those things. Just because I'm not experiencing it doesn't mean I'm not aware that it's happening. I just think it's hard to hear that students are legitimately failing out. Not that they are doing poorly, barely skating by, getting 2.0's, whatever. But that they are doing so poorly consistently that they are asked to leave the program. It's my understanding that your typically not kicked out for failing one of two courses. Isn't it three total, or one really bad semester?

That depends on the school, I don't think there is a universal system for students failing out.

 

[pp9]

for the record, I'm not saying I'd do any better than any of the students who have failed out. I can't say that from where I am now.

From the tours I've taken, someone always asks "what happens if you fail a class?" So far, I've heard that you can repeat an entire year, or retake the class with first years and maintain your class standing. Seems like all schools try to catch you before you hit the ground though.

I would actually be very interested to see data on how many students left programs because they decided they didn't want to deal with the debt anymore. As much as we beat that into ourselves on here and in various blogs/articles, a lot of our peers don't know how bad it is. I know it doesn't always mean they went in uninformed, but I still think the schools themselves could say more when recruiting.

 

[WildZoo]

Yeah, that's what I mean when I say the OOS stats are always lower than I'd expect. You'd think any OOS student would have a much tougher time getting accepted OOS (especially if they get no IS love), but you know yourself that's not the case. More students applying OOS means the school can pick their cream of the crop. Either that doesn't happen, or OOS student stats themselves are dropping (not that schools are dropping standards). Unfortunately, none of the schools I've researched separate IS and OOS when they post the stats of the selected class, so I can't go back and see if things are dropping over time for OOS, but yeah, average GPA seems to go up by a few decimal points each year. There are a lot of variables that make all of this comparing pretty hard to do, too...

That's the thing, you can't really make those comparisons across schools because different schools have different cutoffs that they make before they interview (if they interview) and in most cases after you've reached the interview point it is no longer about your stats. Yes, my IS rejected me and I received interviews at two OOS schools. Does that mean that on a numbers level UT and Penn hve dropped their OOS standards? I don't think so. Because there is more that goes into someone getting an interview than just numbers (and in terms of GPA I'm decently middle of the road). Like dy said, you can't really draw conclusions about what the attrition rate means without more data, and you certainly can't say that it has to do with lower standards when the data indicates that on a national scale the opposite is happening. Of the schools that I've seen that do separate their average IS and OOS gpas in their class stats, OOS is always higher, as you would expect. Just because individuals have worked hard enough to make up for low GPA in other areas of their application and have gotten in does not indicate a trend of schools lowering their academic standards.

 

[pp9]

That's the thing, you can't really make those comparisons across schools because different schools have different cutoffs that they make before they interview (if they interview) and in most cases after you've reached the interview point it is no longer about your stats. Yes, my IS rejected me and I received interviews at two OOS schools. Does that mean that on a numbers level UT and Penn hve dropped their OOS standards? I don't think so. Because there is more that goes into someone getting an interview than just numbers (and in terms of GPA I'm decently middle of the road). Like dy said, you can't really draw conclusions about what the attrition rate means without more data, and you certainly can't say that it has to do with lower standards when the data indicates that on a national scale the opposite is happening. Of the schools that I've seen that do separate their average IS and OOS gpas in their class stats, OOS is always higher, as you would expect. Just because individuals have worked hard enough to make up for low GPA in other areas of their application and have gotten in does not indicate a trend of schools lowering their academic standards.

Yes...those variables I mentioned, they make it hard to compare data. Looking at NCSU, it looks like one of their classes had a mean of 3.92 for admitted OOS. That's crazy competition. However, I think that's rare based on what I've seen for the majority of other schools, where the OOSers have lower GPAs. Ignoring other factors and looking at GPA alone, it never seems to be that high most of the time for OOSers. You think it would be. But it isn't. Maybe NCSU doesn't take a lot of OOSers and that's why. My phone makes me not want to keep googling. With more OOS seats being added for some schools, yeah their standards can decrease a little. They can be more free with their seat offers. 10 OOS seats as compared to 40 is going to have a drastic difference on who the school decides on. That doesn't mean the students who get those seats weren't as deserving as the years before them or didn't work hard. It just means the school can now go farther down their OOS list when sending out acceptances.

Also, it's important to note that while the average accepted GPA is on the rise, it hasn't increased that much considering how many seats have been added. So again, if anything, school standards are not changing that much to match an ever increasing pool. Must be that 3.6 is the magic prevet number, lol.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I just found last year's data which actually has much more information.

 

[WildZoo]

Yes...those variables I mentioned, they make it hard to compare data. Looking at NCSU, it looks like one of their classes had a mean of 3.92 for admitted OOS. That's crazy competition. However, I think that's rare based on what I've seen for the majority of other schools, where the OOSers have lower GPAs. Ignoring other factors and looking at GPA alone, it never seems to be that high most of the time for OOSers. You think it would be. But it isn't. Maybe NCSU doesn't take a lot of OOSers and that's why. My phone makes me not want to keep googling. With more OOS seats being added for some schools, yeah their standards can decrease a little. They can be more free with their seat offers. 10 OOS seats as compared to 40 is going to have a drastic difference on who the school decides on. That doesn't mean the students who get those seats weren't as deserving as the years before them or didn't work hard. It just means the school can now go farther down their OOS list when sending out acceptances.

Also, it's important to note that while the average accepted GPA is on the rise, it hasn't increased that much considering how many seats have been added. So again, if anything, school standards are not changing that much to match an ever increasing pool. Must be that 3.6 is the magic prevet number, lol.

Yes, NCSU is very competitive. But there are other factors there - the ability to switch to resident tuition after a year being one of them. Their OOS GPA cutoff is 3.4 for all 3 categories. That is probably higher than other schools. The lower tuition and the cutoffs alone (and ranking, because although most of us here know not to pay attention to it, I'm sure there are others who do) may mean that they get a more competitive applicant pool to begin with. They have 25 seats (I think, it might be 20) for OOS, which is low but not the lowest. The ratio to applicants is probably important there.
All I'm saying is that more seats does not necessarily equal lower standards does not necessarily equal higher attrition rates. You would have to actually look at individual schools and correlate an increased number of seats with a drop in pre-vet GPA and a rise in attrition - and you would also have to know why those students left to correct for the ones that left for non-academic reasons. And then you would have to know whether those same students that came in with a lower pre-vet GPA are the ones failing out, and if those students are OOS or IS.
Yes there are schools with lower OOS GPAs than NCSU. But even those do not have lower OOS GPA than IS, or at least I haven't seen any that do. I'm not sure what "that high" means or what GPA you are expecting for OOSers to have, but it holds true that for most individual schools it is more difficult to get in OOS than IS. but that difficulty comes in many forms and there are so many variables that it becomes meaningless to speculate - GPA means a lot and can make getting in easier or harder, but it isn't everything. Hence, @DVMDream's dart board theory 😉

 

[WildZoo]

I just found last year's data which actually has much more information.

I think you may have linked to the wrong page?

 

[Minnerbelle]

And number of Americans in the international schools.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think you may have linked to the wrong page?

ahaha, i was looking up job ads in my state for a friend. It's corrected now 🙂

 

[NStarz]

I'm not sure how much stock I would put in the cumulative GPAs. Grade inflation probably is playing a big role (though how much of a role between 2003 and 2012 is anyone's guess).

 

[WildZoo]

I just found last year's data which actually has much more information.

That drop in applicant to seat ratio from 2012 to 2013...wow

One thing I'm noticing is that I don't actually see anything about previous attrition rates? Maybe I missed that chart but it has the first year attrition for the c/o 2016 and the total attrition for the c/o 2013. Those numbers are a little odd to compare but I would think that most drop-outs would happen in first year, and if you look at it that way there isn't much difference between c/o 2013 and c/o 2016 (and we aren't given anything about attrition rates for graduating classes before 2013 so there isn't really a way to look for a trend).

 

[Minnerbelle]

From the tours I've taken, someone always asks "what happens if you fail a class?" So far, I've heard that you can repeat an entire year, or retake the class with first years and maintain your class standing. Seems like all schools try to catch you before you hit the ground though.

Why wouldn't they? That's prime tuition dollars (and an extra semester/year's worth) that they wouldn't be able to recoup if the student left forever.

 

[nyanko]

Well that's a rather cynical way to put it. And I'm pretty cynical, but damn...

 

[pp9]

I'm not sure how much stock I would put in the cumulative GPAs. Grade inflation probably is playing a big role (though how much of a role between 2003 and 2012 is anyone's guess).

Good point.

Is there any data from years farther back? Current vets I've worked with seem kinda shocked that our averages now are about 3.6. They claim they had averages around 3.8.

Why wouldn't they? That's prime tuition dollars (and an extra semester/year's worth) that they wouldn't be able to recoup if the student left forever.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't! I think it's absolutely great they they try to support you, even if it's may for financial reasons. But financial reasons are also why class sizes and OOS seats are increasing. My main point is that the more seats that are available, the farther down the 'list' schools can go. Again, there are other variables that make a competitive applicant. GPA being one of them, you can argue that with more seats, lower GPAs are being accepted. That doesn't mean those students aren't competitive at all. But it could be why the average first year GPA didn't increase as much as it did in that study's time frame.

 

[WildZoo]

"The annual data report features data on the faculty and students from the 28 colleges and schools in the United States and selected international members."
So I wonder if they are including the Carib schools in the more recent attrition rates.

Why wouldn't they? That's prime tuition dollars (and an extra semester/year's worth) that they wouldn't be able to recoup if the student left forever.

I appreciate your cynicism Though I like to think some schools do actually care about their students. Maybe.

 

[dyachei]

Well that's a rather cynical way to put it. And I'm pretty cynical, but damn...

It's probably true though.

 

[nyanko]

What I figured, and it just may be as selfish/cynical, is that it doesn't reflect well on the school's admissions process and judgment to have a high attrition rate and they care about that sort of thing, so that's why they try to keep people in the program if at all possible.

 

[Minnerbelle]

That drop in applicant to seat ratio from 2012 to 2013...wow

One thing I'm noticing is that I don't actually see anything about previous attrition rates? Maybe I missed that chart but it has the first year attrition for the c/o 2016 and the total attrition for the c/o 2013. Those numbers are a little odd to compare but I would think that most drop-outs would happen in first year, and if you look at it that way there isn't much difference between c/o 2013 and c/o 2016 (and we aren't given anything about attrition rates for graduating classes before 2013 so there isn't really a way to look for a trend).

Yeah I wish they had more data on that published. But it went from virtually close to 0 attrition for the c/o 2012 to roughly 1.7-1.8 for the classes above them. So between c/o 2012 and c/o 2016 that number went up a lot. It could be that there's been a steady increase in attrition such that c/o 2013 had fewer first year attrition (and accumulated a total that was similar to c/o 2016's first year attrition).

With an overall attrition of 0.8-0.9% during the school years 2012 and 2013 counting all students. Since first years are 1/4 of the population, and their first year attrition is 1.8%, that accounts for 0.45% or half of the overall attrition. That would mean the other half are spread over the 2nd - 4th year students, who knows in what ratio. I don't even know what to make of that, but how sad to leave after paying so much tuition without a degree to pay it off 🙁

 

[nyanko]

The numbers are still pretty low and amount to like 1 or less students per class though, so I still feel like it's difficult to make any assumptions based on them.

ETA: in my class through the 4 years we lost...I think 3 people total, and zero were for academic reasons. We gained 2 from the class above us that had failed classes though.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Well that's a rather cynical way to put it. And I'm pretty cynical, but damn...

Life has hardened me...

What I figured, and it just may be as selfish/cynical, is that it doesn't reflect well on the school's admissions process and judgment to have a high attrition rate and they care about that sort of thing, so that's why they try to keep people in the program if at all possible.

Not sure if that's more or less cynical than the tuition scenario

 

[WildZoo]

Good point.

Is there any data from years farther back? Current vets I've worked with seem kinda shocked that our averages now are about 3.6. They claim they had averages around 3.8.

I couldn't find anything past 2003, when the average pre-vet GPA was 3.52

 

[Minnerbelle]

The numbers are still pretty low and amount to like 1 or less students per class though, so I still feel like it's difficult to make any assumptions based on them.

Like I said, I'm not sure exactly what to make of these numbers. But it does give us concrete numbers pooling data across the nation to put in perspective the classes that lose like 6-10 students their first year.

I do wonder if attrition includes those that drop down a class and repeat a year, or only those that withdraw entirely from the program.

 

[WildZoo]

The numbers are still pretty low and amount to like 1 or less students per class though, so I still feel like it's difficult to make any assumptions based on them.

ETA: in my class through the 4 years we lost...I think 3 people total, and zero were for academic reasons. We gained 2 from the class above us that had failed classes though.

Interesting...I wonder if for individual classes attrition would include those who had failed classes and had to join the class below them, or if they only included those who left for good.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Interesting...I wonder if for individual classes attrition would include those who had failed classes and had to join the class below them, or if they only included those who left for good.

Great minds...

 

[WildZoo]

I'm not saying that they shouldn't! I think it's absolutely great they they try to support you, even if it's may for financial reasons. But financial reasons are also why class sizes and OOS seats are increasing. My main point is that the more seats that are available, the farther down the 'list' schools can go. Again, there are other variables that make a competitive applicant. GPA being one of them, you can argue that with more seats, lower GPAs are being accepted. That doesn't mean those students aren't competitive at all. But it could be why the average first year GPA didn't increase as much as it did in that study's time frame.

My point was that the GPA didn't drop (grade inflation notwithstanding, but if we're talking c/o 2012 to c/o 2013, which is where the attrition rate jump occurred, I don't think grade inflation is going to have much of an effect).
Would I expect GPA to increase as steadily as it had in previous years as seats increase? Of course not. There are only so many students who can pull off a 3.7+ GPA and would therefore pull the average up. But I would think that there are a large number of applicants who have GPAs in the 3.4+ range. Going "down the list" as you put it could very well mean accepting more applicants with a 3.6 than had been accepted in previous years, but perhaps those applicants had lower GRE scores or less experience etc etc. Does that mean GPA standards dropped? Nope. If they did and schools were accepting a significant number of people with GPAs at say, <3.0, that average would definitely have dropped from c/o 2012 to c/o 2016. With NCSU as an example, they could increase their OOS seats and still keep their 3.4 cutoff - so the standard remains the same.
I don't know what led to the attrition rate increase. If you combine the two sets of data we have, c/o 2012 is at 0.04% and 2013 is at 1.7%. That's a big jump for one year and you don't see a corresponding GPA change so you can't even begin to correlate them, let alone form a causative relationship. For all we know c/o 2012 is some weird outlier since we don't have earlier data.

 

[pp9]

I can't imagine voluntarily leaving halfway through....while you are still saving yourself some debt, it still sucks. I totally admire those who have made that decision. My ex introduced me to a woman who graduated with her DVM, but never used it. She found out it wasn't what she wanted. Granted, she graduated in a time whete tuition didn't leave her in the fetal position crying, but still. If you know, why wait?

My point was that the GPA didn't drop (grade inflation notwithstanding, but if we're talking c/o 2012 to c/o 2013, which is where the attrition rate jump occurred, I don't think grade inflation is going to have much of an effect).
Would I expect GPA to increase as steadily as it had in previous years as seats increase? Of course not. There are only so many students who can pull off a 3.7+ GPA and would therefore pull the average up. But I would think that there are a large number of applicants who have GPAs in the 3.4+ range. Going "down the list" as you put it could very well mean accepting more applicants with a 3.6 than had been accepted in previous years, but perhaps those applicants had lower GRE scores or less experience etc etc. Does that mean GPA standards dropped? Nope. If they did and schools were accepting a significant number of people with GPAs at say, <3.0, that average would definitely have dropped from c/o 2012 to c/o 2016. With NCSU as an example, they could increase their OOS seats and still keep their 3.4 cutoff - so the standard remains the same.
I don't know what led to the attrition rate increase. If you combine the two sets of data we have, c/o 2012 is at 0.04% and 2013 is at 1.7%. That's a big jump for one year and you don't see a corresponding GPA change so you can't even begin to correlate them, let alone form a causative relationship. For all we know c/o 2012 is some weird outlier since we don't have earlier data.

Maybe I'm not wording what I'm trying ro say correctly. Let me say it this way: When a school adds more seats, they can go farther down 'the list.' That's a given. We know there are several other variabled that determine where you are placed on that list. However, spot #30 assumably has lower statistics than #10. If they didn't, they'd be higher on the list. So yes, you're right that schools aren't "lowering standards" in that they are accepting drastically less competitive students or changing initial cutoffs, but more seats means #30 is accepted. Previously, this theoretical school could have stopped at #20. #30 pulls down the averages (by how much depends).

I'd be willing to see if the OOS averages have at least stayed steady over time. However, I can see that in the future, OOS competition will get harder as IS competition gets tougher. I'm not saying that OOS students with lower GPAs are the sole reason for the jump in attrition rates, because yeah, the study doesn't offer any potential explanations for that jump. I'm saying it's possible. Although we all know that our prevet GPA is rarely an indicator of how well we'll do in veterinary school.

I'm thinking 2012 is a weird outlier...out of ~2700 students, only 1 left? Am I doing this right? Even using the .94%...only like 25 left programs?

 

[DVMDream]

I can't imagine voluntarily leaving halfway through....while you are still saving yourself some debt, it still sucks. I totally admire those who have made that decision. My ex introduced me to a woman who graduated with her DVM, but never used it. She found out it wasn't what she wanted. Granted, she graduated in a time whete tuition didn't leave her in the fetal position crying, but still. If you know, why wait?

Maybe I'm not wording what I'm trying ro say correctly. Let me say it this way: When a school adds more seats, they can go farther down 'the list.' That's a given. We know there are several other variabled that determine where you are placed on that list. However, spot #30 assumably has lower statistics than #10. If they didn't, they'd be higher on the list. So yes, you're right that schools aren't "lowering standards" in that they are accepting drastically less competitive students or changing initial cutoffs, but more seats means #30 is accepted. Previously, this theoretical school could have stopped at #20. #30 pulls down the averages (by how much depends).

I'd be willing to see if the OOS averages have at least stayed steady over time. However, I can see that in the future, OOS competition will get harder as IS competition gets tougher. I'm not saying that OOS students with lower GPAs are the sole reason for the jump in attrition rates, because yeah, the study doesn't offer any potential explanations for that jump. I'm saying it's possible. Although we all know that our prevet GPA is rarely an indicator of how well we'll do in veterinary school.

I'm thinking 2012 is a weird outlier...out of ~2700 students, only 1 left? Am I doing this right? Even using the .94%...only like 25 left programs?

You're making a crap ton of assumptions with no proof of what you are saying. Just because a school increases seats from 20 to 40 or whatever, doesn't mean that suddenly students with really low GPAs are getting accepted. If you have 800 applicants, chances are you have at least 40 with some darn good GPAs, but that isn't the only admissions factor. Not only that, but you're assuming the rank people by only GPA and #6 will have a higher GPA than #35 and that isn't necessarily true. Clearly GPA hasn't been dropping, look at individual school statistics, GPA and GRE averages tend to remain close to the same year to year. Not only that, but the information in the original link shows that GPA has been steadily increasing every year, not decreasing. WZ made a good point in maybe that has to do with grade inflation, possible, but I think it is more likely the increased number of applicants and more competition. If we start to see applicant numbers drop, the I think we could see a drop in average GPAs. But you're trying to claim the increased attrition on something that all information shows isn't right and actually shows the opposite.

 

[WildZoo]

Maybe I'm not wording what I'm trying ro say correctly. Let me say it this way: When a school adds more seats, they can go farther down 'the list.' That's a given. We know there are several other variabled that determine where you are placed on that list. However, spot #30 assumably has lower statistics than #10. If they didn't, they'd be higher on the list. So yes, you're right that schools aren't "lowering standards" in that they are accepting drastically less competitive students or changing initial cutoffs, but more seats means #30 is accepted. Previously, this theoretical school could have stopped at #20. #30 pulls down the averages (by how much depends).

I do understand what you are saying. What I'm saying is I disagree with the premise because, as I said, there are probably a ton of people with a GPA in the middle 3's. Positions #21 through 30 could have a 3.5 GPA (likely they don't - some could have a 3.7, some could have a 3.4, some could even have a 4.0). My point is that the list isn't set up in a way where you can assume that GPA drops when a school adds 10 more seats. #21 through 30 could themselves have an average GPA of 3.6, and then the average doesn't change at all. You see people with a 3.5 cGPA get in and someone with a 3.7 get waitlisted. It happens. Most likely all of those people on the list at that stage made it to interview, and with some schools that means that the academic evaluation portion is over. That list no longer has anything to do with GPA. Or it has less to do with it than it would have before interviews. You simply can't assume that #21-30 pull down the average, especially when we don't have evidence to support that.

Looking at an individual school:
NCSU
2010 - 18 OOS spots - 3.80 GPA (interesting point here, the range was 3.12 to 4.0, while the waitlist range was 3.25 to 4.0)
2011 - 18 OOS spots - 3.92 GPA
2012 - 20 OOS - 3.84 (range 3.6 to 4.0, and the waitlist was again higher 3.85 with a range 3.65 to 4.0)
NCSU could have admitted every person on their waitlist (about 50 students if I'm remembering correctly) and their average OOS GPA would increase. That is the point I am making.

I'm not saying that OOS students with lower GPAs are the sole reason for the jump in attrition rates, because yeah, the study doesn't offer any potential explanations for that jump. I'm saying it's possible. Although we all know that our prevet GPA is rarely an indicator of how well we'll do in veterinary school.

Most schools are going to have more IS students with low GPAs than OOS, even if it is just due to the smaller applicant pool for a greater number of seats. The average IS GPA is almost always lower. If attrition was caused by low GPA, if anything it would be due to "lower standards" for IS students, not OOS.

I'm thinking 2012 is a weird outlier...out of ~2700 students, only 1 left? Am I doing this right? Even using the .94%...only like 25 left programs?

It's either an outlier or a typo because I find it extremely hard to believe that out of the 28 US schools (close to 2800 students) only one student left over the course of 4 years. I find the other numbers, around 1.8% much more believable...about 3000 students and 1.8% leave, that's 1-2 people per program over the course of 4 years. So basically we're discussing a trend that probably doesn't even exist.

 

[twelvetigers]

Well I do know those things. Just because I'm not experiencing it doesn't mean I'm not aware that it's happening. I just think it's hard to hear that students are legitimately failing out. Not that they are doing poorly, barely skating by, getting 2.0's, whatever. But that they are doing so poorly consistently that they are asked to leave the program. It's my understanding that your typically not kicked out for failing one of two courses. Isn't it three total, or one really bad semester?

You know it, but you don't GET it.

Every school does things a bit differently, and some are harder than others.

Here, if you make an F, you are out.

If you made a D, you take a placement exam.

If you don't pass the placement exam, you are out.

It happens. Generally 1st year, but it happens.

And to say you don't understand how someone could manage to fail out of veterinary school after all the hard work... good lord. Let me assure you, it's generally not for lack of effort. Everyone needs to stop assuming that hard undergrad classes and a heavy courseload is in any way comparable to what vet school is like, because it's. just. not.

 

[Coquette22]

And to say you don't understand how someone could manage to fail out of veterinary school after all the hard work... good lord. Let me assure you, it's generally not for lack of effort. Everyone needs to stop assuming that hard undergrad classes and a heavy courseload is in any way comparable to what vet school is like, because it's. just. not.

And sometimes, just like in undergrad, life gets in the way. Family things and medical things don't stop happening just because you're in vet school. And despite an administration trying to help, sometimes it's not enough.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I'm also pretty sure that it would be really difficult to manage a 2.0 in vet school without being flunked out first for most schools. You can get C's and be totally cool, but it would be hard to average a 2.0 without having some D's in there... Which gets you in trouble with the firing squad at a lot of places.

Plenty of people have below a 3.0, and do just fine. But that's how dangerously close to academic troubles anyone can be in at any time. When you take so many classes at once, and a couple exams determine your grade for each class... One crappy week and one crappy exam can get you in hot waters very fast.

 

[orca2011]

I'm also pretty sure that it would be really difficult to manage a 2.0 in vet school without being flunked out first for most schools. You can get C's and be totally cool, but it would be hard to average a 2.0 without having some D's in there... Which gets you in trouble with the firing squad at a lot of places.

Plenty of people have below a 3.0, and do just fine. But that's how dangerously close to academic troubles anyone can be in at any time. When you take so many classes at once, and a couple exams determine your grade for each class... One crappy week and one crappy exam can get you in hot waters very fast.

Just wanted to comment that here, it's pretty easy to get a 2.0 average, since we don't do +/-'s. So straight C's will get you that average.

Also, just wanted to reiterate how easy it is to come close to failing a class --and definitely not from lack of effort. Some of our classes have one Final, so if life get's in the way and it goes poorly, you're screwed. I've also been close before because I effed up one single test horribly enough that it screws me over.

 

[DVMDream]

One crappy week and one crappy exam can get you in hot waters very fast.

Yeah. That would be this past week for me. Two crappy exams in one week. I know one grade was crappy, haven't gotten the other yet, would be shocked if I got above a 40% to be honest.

Dear professors,

I can not read a paragraph of info for each question plus all answer choices also being short paragraphs... my brain shuts down. I can't even recall what I have read anymore. And when you do this for 30 questions in a row, I kind of just want to lay down and give up once I get to the end. That doesn't even include the other 20 questions which were essentially, which one of the following is true and giving 6 or more choices which actually makes 1 question into 6 T/F questions...

Nobody (ok, maybe a very small number of people) can keep up stamina through and exam like that and come out unscathed.