Forum Members ABFAS/ABPM

[newpodgrad]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Hey guys

While looking for jobs , I inquired with a few local hospitals about how to go about getting privileges.

Several of them sent me info and I wanted to highlight a board concern.

Not sure how to really take it, but here’s a excerpt from one of the docs re: board status.

“Board Certification Requirement means certification from one of the following boards: the American Board of Medical Specialties, the American Osteopathic Association, the American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery, or those Boards which may be approved by the Executive Committee to satisfy this Requirement”

As a disclaimer, I’m not a HUGE surgery pod. I enjoyed it , and did it in residency because, well, that’s what we had to do. And I’m fine with my forefoot procedures. I believe I’ve done well with them at my current level. I don’t care to do TARS, scopes mid foot fusions etc. I have no problem referring them out. I took the ABFAS qualifying tests etc, because again, it’s encouraged in residency and passed them.

Looking at this doc, it almost seems like this board required if you wanted to be on staff. The little statement at the end regarding “or those boards” seems like it might open the door for ABPM with some petitioning or something.

What do you guys make of this? I have heard from others that ABPM will get involved with issues regarding privileges etc. Is there more to this picture than meets the eye?

Thanks in advance for everyone’s take

 

[Pronation]

Do you think maybe the ABFAS board pass rates would be higher if:

- pod schools didn't have atrocious admissions criteria?
- some of the atrocious residency programs were finally shut down (the ones where the residunces triple scrub a toe amp, quintuple scrub a hammertoe repair, etc so that they can meet the pathetically low minimum numbers for incompetency)?

Just saying...

edit: We also know of top students/residents that failed ABFAS (either didactic or case review) but they all eventually go on to mysteriously passing the board after enough money is milked out of them for the retakes. What I'm saying is that there is some degree of blame on the schools, those unfortunate crappy residencies, and ABFAS as well.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Pronation, I gree 100%!

- pod schools didn't have atrocious admissions criteria?
- some of the atrocious residency programs were finally shut down (the ones where the residunces triple scrub a toe amp, quintuple scrub a hammertoe repair, etc so that they can meet the pathetically low minimum numbers for incompetency)?

But then they wouldn't have all those 200k/student loans checks to spend. Why fix a problem that's making a certain few super rich?

CPME and APMA, what pronation stated should be your number one concern. Not weighing in on board politics. It shows how the APMA/CPME is in bed with the ABFAS.

When will the APMA/CPME release a statement (like they did about the surgery CAQ this week) addressing what pronation says? Anyone from CPME/APMA care? I bet "they never heard of this problem before"!

So to recap, the APMA/CPME does not care that 60% of their "residency" programs don't meet psr 12 requirements. What do they do instead? Let's increase the case diversity (via ABFAS) when we know there are programs are not meeting these numbers. GREAT IDEA GUYS!!!! Then when the unqualified residents mess up doing things they were not comfortable doing, let's sue them. Then testify against them. Sick, sick, sick.

Again ABPM stay strong. The ABFAS/APMA/CPME are all gonna continue to gang up on you for doing the right thing. Stay strong, they have a ton of baggage they don't want leaked!!!

 

[wakaflocka88]

I’m still waiting for ABFAS and ABPM to tell me how they have patient safety in their best interest.

ABFAS will continue to charge $4k as long as there is a large enough pool of applicants to be duped. These fellowship trained F&A surgeons need that ABFAS distinction or it’s a bust. Met one a few weeks ago and corrected him - “you mean you’re still a podiatrist.” 😂

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Wakaflaka88, great post, agree 100%!

The ABFAS crowd thinks they are foot and ankle surgeons, not podiatrist. Hence them changing their board name in the past decade. It is so much easier to trick and con the public by using "foot and ankle surgery".

That's why the ABPM is right on. They will create a podiatric surgery option! Not fake MD "foot and ankle surgery option".

For all you ABFAS mavericks, since you HATE podiatry so much why didn't you guys go to MD/DO school and become footvand ankle orthopedic surgeons? Thats right, you didn't get in!!!! Yikes!

 

[deleted285117]

Not to bring up that dreaded daily email...

But Dr. Allen Jacobs had a great rebuttal in regards to ABPM’s CAQ. Worth a read. I think he hit the nail on the head with our profession’s “medicine” knowledge... in the end, he was not agreeable to the CAQ but his arguments are sound.

 

[air bud]

Not to bring up that dreaded daily email...

But Dr. Allen Jacobs had a great rebuttal in regards to ABPM’s CAQ. Worth a read. I think he hit the nail on the head with our profession’s “medicine” knowledge... in the end, he was not agreeable to the CAQ but his arguments are sound.

Yeah hold on will get to it, but first have to finish reading about how flip flops are bad for me then need to click on a few links for lasers and orthotics. But then I will read it. Can you tell me if Dr. Kass or Shavelson have weighed in on this?

 

[deleted285117]

Yeah hold on will get to it, but first have to finish reading about how flip flops are bad for me then need to click on a few links for lasers and orthotics. But then I read it. Can you tell me if Dr. Kass or Shavelson have weighed in on this?

As chance would have it... his arguments were toward Dr. Kass - haha! 😂

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Airbud...lol, so true!!! 🙂

 

[Sweatshirt]

Airbud...lol, so true!!! 🙂

Click the reply button dawg

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

Wait a second….if not for PM News I would have never known that it’s not smart to walk bare foot in the snow or barefoot on scolding hot asphalt in the summer.

 

[111111194]

Wakaflaka88, great post, agree 100%!

The ABFAS crowd thinks they are foot and ankle surgeons, not podiatrist. Hence them changing their board name in the past decade. It is so much easier to trick and con the public by using "foot and ankle surgery".

That's why the ABPM is right on. They will create a podiatric surgery option! Not fake MD "foot and ankle surgery option".

For all you ABFAS mavericks, since you HATE podiatry so much why didn't you guys go to MD/DO school and become footvand ankle orthopedic surgeons? Thats right, you didn't get in!!!! Yikes!

I hate the whole “foot and ankle surgeon” thing. Just say podiatrist. Some people have to just accept the fact that we’re not MD/DO. We’re just not. I don’t see dentists trying to pass themselves off as MD.

 

[Utvolsdpm]

I hate the whole “foot and ankle surgeon” thing. Just say podiatrist. Some people have to just accept the fact that we’re not MD/DO. We’re just not. I don’t see dentists trying to pass themselves off as MD.

Really? They came up with the DMD degree.

 

[newfeet]

Really? They came up with the DMD degree.

I thought most dentists had a dds…

 

[Utvolsdpm]

I thought most dentists had a dds…

That was the degree historically and then they made up the DMD so it would have the letter MD in it. Some schools offer it some don’t. The degrees are equivalent. Podiatry isn’t the only profession with an identity crisis.

 

[111111194]

That was the degree historically and then they made up the DMD so it would have the letter MD in it. Some schools offer it some don’t. The degrees are equivalent. Podiatry isn’t the only profession with an identity crisis.

“In 1867, Harvard University opened its dental school. It was the first dental school to be affiliated with a major university. Harvard granted their degrees in Latin. The translation of Doctor of Dental Surgery into Latin was “Chirurgae Dentium Doctoris.” Harvard officials did not like the translation. They consulted with a Latin scholar and decided on “Dentariae Medicinae Doctorae” which means Doctor of Dental Medicine or abbreviated as DMD.”

It wasn’t just to sound more like MD. I didn’t know this when I made my last post but just thought I’d look into it.

 

[SouthOrBust]

I’m still waiting for ABFAS and ABPM to tell me how they have patient safety in their best interest.

ABFAS will continue to charge $4k as long as there is a large enough pool of applicants to be duped. These fellowship trained F&A surgeons need that ABFAS distinction or it’s a bust. Met one a few weeks ago and corrected him - “you mean you’re still a podiatrist.” 😂

ABFAS doesn’t care about patient safety.

Their main argument against the ABPM CAQs are that they aren’t CPME approved…. Did no one tell them their sister organization ACFAS “fellowships” aren’t CPME approved either?

Maybe that “foot and ankle” surgeon shouldn’t be claiming he is “fellowship trained” since it’s not recognized training. Of course he provides a lot of money each year for those extra letters after his names so we can turn a blind eye.

 

[newfeet]

“In 1867, Harvard University opened its dental school. It was the first dental school to be affiliated with a major university. Harvard granted their degrees in Latin. The translation of Doctor of Dental Surgery into Latin was “Chirurgae Dentium Doctoris.” Harvard officials did not like the translation. They consulted with a Latin scholar and decided on “Dentariae Medicinae Doctorae” which means Doctor of Dental Medicine or abbreviated as DMD.”

It wasn’t just to sound more like MD. I didn’t know this when I made my last post but just thought I’d look into it.

The most Harvard story ever… we are going to use this because we like the Latin translation better…

 

[Jummy Biffett]

I hate the whole “foot and ankle surgeon” thing. Just say podiatrist. Some people have to just accept the fact that we’re not MD/DO. We’re just not. I don’t see dentists trying to pass themselves off as MD.

So true. 95% of people in this profession have such an inferiority complex/chip on their shoulders. Stop saying you have equivalent education and training as an orthopedic surgeon. Stop claiming that you have such a passion for feet or some other BS and that's why you went to pod school when really you just couldn't get into MD/DO school. It's honestly sickening. Focus on doing good work and let that be enough (and try to get as much money as possible out of this thankless job)

 

[wakaflocka88]

Still waiting for a fellowship trained pod to weigh in their opinion.

 

[Feli]

MGM in Las Vegas will soon release their betting odds:

Over/Under of formal reply emails regarding CAQ podiatric surgery from the ABPM and ABFAS by the end of 2022 = 8.5 reply statements

Place your bets... I will take the over. I believe they have done two each by now with today's by ABFAS (so 4 total formal statements/replies, and counting).

 

[Scrantonicity]

MGM in Las Vegas will soon release their betting odds:

Over/Under of formal reply emails regarding CAQ podiatric surgery from the ABPM and ABFAS by the end of 2022 = 8.5 reply statements

Place your bets... I will take the over. I believe they have done two each by now with today's by ABFAS (so 4 total formal statements/replies, and counting).

Yep...it's getting pretty cringeworthy. Guess it was from the start, but it's almost a parody now.

 

[dtrack22]

Yep...it's getting pretty cringeworthy. Guess it was from the start, but it's almost a parody now.

The best is the ABFAS statement having a link to their “pass rates” not being an issue then they show the 60-80% pass rates for the RRA stuff.

I’m in a state that is being threatened with a lawsuit for requiring ABFAS RRA just to get a special state license to perform any ankle surgery. Only 30 podiatrists in the whole state have RRA. It’s a small state but that’s still only 20% of podiatrists here. So the state podiatry organization was going to come out with a statement or position saying they support the removal of ABFAS requirements just for licensure. Theeeeen they have a board meeting and the state org board decides to support the requirement for licensure…joining the state Ortho organization and the state medical association saying it’s a patient safety issue. The state podiatry organization is supporting scope restriction for 80% of its members. A majority of those people should withdraw their membership and not renew next year when dues come due…but it’s podiatry. So they won’t. And we continue to be the only profession that puts restriction on our own scope to make MDs and DOs and a small % of RRA cert DPMs happy. They have no data to suggest patient safety has actually improved since requiring ABFAS for licensure/ankle privileges. Name me a single medical specialty who is actively preventing their physicians (go ahead and throw PAs and NPs in there) from practicing the thing they were trained to do?

And if @diabeticfootdr is reading this, and you need a podiatrist in the state to join the lawsuit, let me know. I’m sick and tired of our dumbarse profession. Literally zero podiatrists (and really no ortho) on the entire east side of the state (other than myself) will do any ankle surgery that isn’t a fracture. No charcot recon. No post traumatic salvage. They are actively limiting access to care for hundreds of thousands of people.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Lol.....another DESPERATE response from the ABFAS!!! Maybe the ABFAS can start letting people become board CERTIFIED BEFORE graduating residency soon. I bet they can come up with some way to MANDATE that you transfer part of your 3rd year residency salary directly to the board the third year. They will get APMA/CPME on board and all sing kumbaya around the campfire together while spending that $$$!

I can see by 2030 students will be mandated to transfer 10k of your student loans (directly to ABFAS) upon entering one of the 35 DPM schools that "they" will "need" to create! This will also be about "public safety" I bet! Simply unreal everyone, have you ever seen such desperation?

 

[newfeet]

So true. 95% of people in this profession have such an inferiority complex/chip on their shoulders. Stop saying you have equivalent education and training as an orthopedic surgeon. Stop claiming that you have such a passion for feet or some other BS and that's why you went to pod school when really you just couldn't get into MD/DO school. It's honestly sickening. Focus on doing good work and let that be enough (and try to get as much money as possible out of this thankless job)

I am proudly in the 95%. The money isn't enough. I am looking at finding some hobbies.

The best is the ABFAS statement having a link to their “pass rates” not being an issue then they show the 60-80% pass rates for the RRA stuff.

I’m in a state that is being threatened with a lawsuit for requiring ABFAS RRA just to get a special state license to perform any ankle surgery. Only 30 podiatrists in the whole state have RRA. It’s a small state but that’s still only 20% of podiatrists here. So the state podiatry organization was going to come out with a statement or position saying they support the removal of ABFAS requirements just for licensure. Theeeeen they have a board meeting and the state org board decides to support the requirement for licensure…joining the state Ortho organization and the state medical association saying it’s a patient safety issue. The state podiatry organization is supporting scope restriction for 80% of its members. A majority of those people should withdraw their membership and not renew next year when dues come due…but it’s podiatry. So they won’t. And we continue to be the only profession that puts restriction on our own scope to make MDs and DOs and a small % of RRA cert DPMs happy. They have no data to suggest patient safety has actually improved since requiring ABFAS for licensure/ankle privileges. Name me a single medical specialty who is actively preventing their physicians (go ahead and throw PAs and NPs in there) from practicing the thing they were trained to do?

And if @diabeticfootdr is reading this, and you need a podiatrist in the state to join the lawsuit, let me know. I’m sick and tired of our dumbarse profession. Literally zero podiatrists (and really no ortho) on the entire east side of the state (other than myself) will do any ankle surgery that isn’t a fracture. No charcot recon. No post traumatic salvage. They are actively limiting access to care for hundreds of thousands of people.

I am New York in we also require the RRA for the ankle permits to do ankle surgery.

 

[619]

ABFAS Statement on ABPM Certificate Registration The American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery (ABFAS) strives to protect and improve public health and welfare by advancing the art and science of foot and ankle surgery. More than 10,000 podiatrists have earned ABFAS Board Certification by successfully meeting our high standards for demonstrating competency and proficiency.* We are committed to serving the podiatric community and preserving trust in our profession. Like many of you, we were disappointed in this week’s decision by the American Board of Podiatric Medicine (ABPM) to open applications for a Certificate of Added Qualification (CAQ) in Podiatric Surgery outside of the profession’s traditionally rigorous certification process. Several leading podiatric organizations have raised serious concerns about ABPM’s rush to launch the new CAQ and the potential confusion it may cause among patients and hospitals. We have been encouraged to see many comments that reflect concerns we share, including:

“ACFAS is alarmed by the announcement from the American Board of Podiatric Medicine (ABPM) that it plans to issue an unrecognized certificate in podiatric surgery. Allowing a Certificate of Added Qualification (CAQ) not recognized by any accrediting body and circumvents the JCRSB determination risks safe patient care, the public’s trust and the reputation of our profession.” American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons (ACFAS) “...the Council believes it would be confusing to the public to provide a qualification in podiatric surgery when there is a surgical certification board within the profession. [...] CPME requests, for the best interest of the profession, that all specialty boards refrain from implementing CAQs, including the CAQ in podiatric surgery, until the rewrite process is complete.” Council on Podiatric Medical Education (CPME), 8/11/22 “A CAQ in Podiatric Surgery offered by ABPM would seem to be a duplication of what is already offered by the recognized board for certification in surgery. APMA believes there is a strong possibility that a CAQ in Podiatric Surgery could confuse and mislead the public. [...] The CAQ in Podiatric Surgery has a high potential to mislead a patient to believe a surgeon has more experience and expertise than they do. The CAQ also causes greater confusion for other health-care specialties, insurance companies, state legislators, and hospitals, which already frequently mischaracterize podiatrists’ education, training, and certification.” American Podiatric Medical Association (APMA), 8/12/22 “Not only is the addition of ABPM’s CAQ in Podiatric Surgery duplicative, but it creates fragmentation within the podiatric medical profession. This will no doubt lead to confusion amongst employers, allopathic/osteopathic colleagues, and the general public in regard to all podiatrists’ surgical qualifications. [...] This is a serious threat to the health and safety of the general public as well as the podiatric medical profession.” Minnesota Podiatric Medical Association Letter to CPME

A commitment to surgical excellence and the highest standards of care are shared values that unite our community. Abandoning this commitment and risking a loss of public trust in our profession’s certification processes will ultimately weaken the entire podiatric medical profession. With that in mind, we join other leaders in the podiatric community in calling upon ABPM to immediately suspend applications for its CAQ in podiatric surgery until the profession’s Specialty Board Recognition Committee (SBRC) concludes its rulemaking process, which begins in November.

Sincerely, The ABFAS Board of Directors

 

[619]

Part I Board Qualification Examinations











Part II Case Review

 

[deleted285117]

ABFAS can cry salty tears. Public doesn’t know any different about CAQs and doesn’t care.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

According to their website from 2017-2020, The American Board of Orthopedic Surgery had a pass rate of AROUND 97%!

This is how Podiatry would be if CPME got rid of 60% of the residencies that don't meet PM&S-36 minimum case load requirements and residents were PROPERLY trained!

But it's all about public safety! They dont care about their diplomats being board certified in foot and ankle surgery but never did a surgical residency (or some that never ever touched an ankle)!

If "they" cared, yank the foot and ankle certificate IMMEDIATEDLY (if you didn't pass the RRA, EVERYONE you are boarded in FOOT SURGERY ONLY)! But, but then "the chosen ones who never did a surgical residency" can't continue to testify against their young and trick the jury into being something they are not PERIOD!

We should try to help our young, not try everything we can to not let them succeed or (more importantly) have them practice in complete fear of the "good old crew" that waves those "foot and ankle certificates" around the courtrooms testifying AGAINST collegues. SICK. Stay strong everyone, this ends that abusive practice!

 

[heybrother]

As far as ABFAS numbers are concerned -

-Theoretically there's a time component to them. So, older classes will essentially reach the numbers for case review with each year, but then eventually there will be no further growth. So when you see 2014 listed or what not - whatever number is next to it is probably what you get. Essentially if you published this every year you'd see a degree of change with older classes but in time it would peter off.

-I wonder how many people are lost to the process because they couldn't bring their records with them. Is that a reasonable question? ie. they've moved so many times they can't get x-rays or things like that. Presumably if your job is in question you should just be printing every x-ray everytime you see a patient.

-There's clearly a huge stepdown in numbers from number of people that we graduate, to number of people who take the exams, to number of people who pass foot, to number of people who pass rearfoot. If you divide rearfoot pass / total number of graduates or even by total number of rearfoot original test written takers its really just a tiny portion of people. Like - there's about 100 people who pass a year but almost 500 people start off taking the written.

Last of all - did anyone from ABFAS double check / QC this data because on one of the tables the number of people who took the exam is 70ish but 400 something people passed. (2019 RRA case review)

 

[Feli]

As far as ABFAS numbers are concerned -

-Theoretically there's a time component to them. So, older classes will essentially reach the numbers for case review with each year, but then eventually there will be no further growth. So when you see 2014 listed or what not - whatever number is next to it is probably what you get. Essentially if you published this every year you'd see a degree of change with older classes but in time it would peter off.

-I wonder how many people are lost to the process because they couldn't bring their records with them. Is that a reasonable question? ie. they've moved so many times they can't get x-rays or things like that. Presumably if your job is in question you should just be printing every x-ray everytime you see a patient.

-There's clearly a huge stepdown in numbers from number of people that we graduate, to number of people who take the exams, to number of people who pass foot, to number of people who pass rearfoot. If you divide rearfoot pass / total number of graduates or even by total number of rearfoot original test written takers its really just a tiny portion of people. Like - there's about 100 people who pass a year but almost 500 people start off taking the written.

Last of all - did anyone from ABFAS double check / QC this data because on one of the tables the number of people who took the exam is 70ish but 400 something people passed. (2019 RRA case review)

Yeah, and the stats aren't complete or correct either...
Technically, I, and others, would be a fail for case review spring of this 2022 year, but I'm not on the list (since I did re-qual and not the "new way") since I was 2012 residency grad. I would imagine they might find a way to count the pre-2014 grad pass results like my and others' RRA new CBPS and re-qual didactic, etc from the same cycle, though? 🙂

And yes, tons of people end up fairly screwed for changing jobs; they have to delay cert or expire on board qual. That's exactly what I get to do this weekend... go into the office, get records and XR for a younger candidate, try to figure out if there is f/u for the cases after that DPM left or help them document that if the patients no-showed after they the candidate left the group. If I don't help that person, who will? Office manager? Usually they don't have time and don't understand anything other than try to print the whole clinic record (and have much trouble with XR images or outside stuff... advanced imaging, consults, inpt records, OR records required, etc). I am happy to do it and can do it, but it is very time consuming. The poor person's board cert chance is dependent on if I'm willing to do it and how the charts turn out - not on their knowledge and surgical skill (they passed BQ obviously). But, I know how it goes as well as anyone. I had tons of fun doing my own cases this past spring. The problematic part is that the time I use to track down their cases - or my own - is time I could be doing CME, fun stuff, see family, etc.

The best thing one can do if they are ABFAS qual and change jobs is take their case records and XR images and everything with them when they leave a job. It mitigates a ton of later problems with facility/group privacy concerns of producing records for a doc who no longer works there; the office mgr or DPMs there don't usually have time to help later (nothing in it for them). Also, EMR may have changed or records were lost, etc. At minimum, you had better hope you stay in touch and are cool with the DPMs who are there after you or come in after you. Count on the hospital med records ppl or office mgr at your own peril for cases... even if they want to help, they often don't understand how. That 4-6wks or whatever you get to produce the case records also evaporates at a very rapid rate on the candidate after the cases get selected. 🙂

And yes, of course, the ideal board cert situ is to take a job with high surgery, stay there, get cert after a few years while you're still there and can easily collect case documentation and XRs yourself... but that's just not the way it goes statistically (most DPMs and MDs etc don't stay at first job too long, will probably have a non-compete, and probably won't have EMR/facility access anymore).

It is a very tough ABFAS process, and the pass rate stats are definitely misleading.
I don't know if they are only showing first-time with those stats sent yesterday, showing only 2014+ when they changed rules on re-qual and new CBPS, or what. Regardless, it's not the whole picture... I know at least a few in my shoes (pre-2014 grads did re-qual - some have Foot cert but not RRA yet, struggling with cert case review mostly on documentation ticky-tack fails, would count as a fail this past cycle but not represented in the stats sent). Some also passed their qual CBPS after residency but failed the "new" CBPS they have to take for re-qual or due to rule change... so I don't know how those are shown in stats either; it may be first time CBPS taker only.

 

[PTPuser]

I'm a third year student and all of this is just exhausting lol. And it's so hard to truly gauge the profession / future outlook unless you're truly in it now. I don't regret choosing pod, but I can't sit here with a straight face and say that I would chose this path if I knew it was such a battle when it comes to certification process. No one talks to you about this when you talk to current pods and you don't think to research anything before school regarding the certification process cause in your mind, you're trying to figure out if you even enjoy the field and then you get slammed with stuff like this. It feels like a never ending battle. My friends in MD/DO world aren't worried about stuff like this at all and they're gonna make it when they're done while we're out here with debt to the neck and constant anxiety of potentially not being able to practice full scope.

 

[Pronation]

I'm a third year student and all of this is just exhausting lol. And it's so hard to truly gauge the profession / future outlook unless you're truly in it now. I don't regret choosing pod, but I can't sit here with a straight face and say that I would chose this path if I knew it was such a battle when it comes to certification process. No one talks to you about this when you talk to current pods and you don't think to research anything before school regarding the certification process cause in your mind, you're trying to figure out if you even enjoy the field and then you get slammed with stuff like this. It feels like a never ending battle. My friends in MD/DO world aren't worried about stuff like this at all and they're gonna make it when they're done while we're out here with debt to the neck and constant anxiety of potentially not being able to practice full scope.

I would be more concerned about being able to find a job that isn't terrible than certification and "practicing full scope"...

 

[PTPuser]

I would be more concerned about being able to find a job that isn't terrible than certification and "practicing full scope"...

Lol, that part was fully warned to me before I started also but I was an idiot and still continued 🥲
🥲

 

[newfeet]

I'm a third year student and all of this is just exhausting lol. And it's so hard to truly gauge the profession / future outlook unless you're truly in it now. I don't regret choosing pod, but I can't sit here with a straight face and say that I would chose this path if I knew it was such a battle when it comes to certification process. No one talks to you about this when you talk to current pods and you don't think to research anything before school regarding the certification process cause in your mind, you're trying to figure out if you even enjoy the field and then you get slammed with stuff like this. It feels like a never ending battle. My friends in MD/DO world aren't worried about stuff like this at all and they're gonna make it when they're done while we're out here with debt to the neck and constant anxiety of potentially not being able to practice full scope.

I am 11 years out. Certification is the least of podiatry's problems. The job market is the main issue. I think I finally found a situation where I can be in a city/town that fits my needs, my wife's needs and has good school districts near by.

Make a plan to land some place you can stay long term then worry about certification.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Hey Ptpuser I wouldn't let all this worry you or your classmates, I fully agree with most on here that say "finding a job will be your hardest endeavor". When you finish up your residency, all this nonsense will be sorted out for you and your collegues.

When your class graduates residency you will have the option to get boarded in podiatric surgery relatively quickly and inexpensively. This will give you some "legal cover" and allow you to focus on running/working at your practice and dealing with patients. That takes a lot of practice.

The ABFAS BQ "status" gives you some immediate cover currently, but if ANYTHING ever goes wrong they will/can say "your not board certified" and you were wrong. That is playing with fire in my opinion (in my 30 yrs of practice and DEFENDING collegues) of practice. Especially the cases ABFAS wants you to "try" for the new diversity requirements. You WILL have complications arrise and if that's "your 1st one out of residency" that causes an amputation due to complications you will be fried. Who

Once you feel comfortable with your simple procedures, you can start doing more complex things over time. Some will wanna do MSG type cases (trauma/recon rearfoot) and some will be fine with their general podiatric surgery. They are both OK, everyone graduating does NOT need to do the same thing.

So just continue to study and continue to work hard and you will do great. We are here to support you!

 

[SouthOrBust]

The best is the ABFAS statement having a link to their “pass rates” not being an issue then they show the 60-80% pass rates for the RRA stuff.

I’m in a state that is being threatened with a lawsuit for requiring ABFAS RRA just to get a special state license to perform any ankle surgery. Only 30 podiatrists in the whole state have RRA. It’s a small state but that’s still only 20% of podiatrists here. So the state podiatry organization was going to come out with a statement or position saying they support the removal of ABFAS requirements just for licensure. Theeeeen they have a board meeting and the state org board decides to support the requirement for licensure…joining the state Ortho organization and the state medical association saying it’s a patient safety issue. The state podiatry organization is supporting scope restriction for 80% of its members. A majority of those people should withdraw their membership and not renew next year when dues come due…but it’s podiatry. So they won’t. And we continue to be the only profession that puts restriction on our own scope to make MDs and DOs and a small % of RRA cert DPMs happy. They have no data to suggest patient safety has actually improved since requiring ABFAS for licensure/ankle privileges. Name me a single medical specialty who is actively preventing their physicians (go ahead and throw PAs and NPs in there) from practicing the thing they were trained to do?

And if @diabeticfootdr is reading this, and you need a podiatrist in the state to join the lawsuit, let me know. I’m sick and tired of our dumbarse profession. Literally zero podiatrists (and really no ortho) on the entire east side of the state (other than myself) will do any ankle surgery that isn’t a fracture. No charcot recon. No post traumatic salvage. They are actively limiting access to care for hundreds of thousands of people.

ABFAS has their fingers in the state boards and societies, just like hospital credentialing. They’ve used their positions and the silly rules and confusion in our profession well over the years to create this hierarchy to serve themselves.

You say you’re “sick and tired” of our profession. Unfortunately, prospective students see and hear us say this and they turn away. MD/DO schools are bursting at the seams with new applicants. Podiatry schools are entering an admissions crisis with low application rates. Really sad for what should be a fantastic career choice.

 

[NatCh]

The public does not care and does not know any different. Same with allopathic and osteopathic physicians... they could not care less.

Facebook Certified is more important to people

 

[HardRoadPaved]

Lol, that part was fully warned to me before I started also but I was an idiot and still continued 🥲
🥲

But think... you'll have "Dr." in front of your name!

 

[HardRoadPaved]

Facebook Certified is more important to people

Absolutely. I have a CAQ in WhatsApp and Instagram proficiency

 

[air bud]

The best is the ABFAS statement having a link to their “pass rates” not being an issue then they show the 60-80% pass rates for the RRA stuff.

I’m in a state that is being threatened with a lawsuit for requiring ABFAS RRA just to get a special state license to perform any ankle surgery. Only 30 podiatrists in the whole state have RRA. It’s a small state but that’s still only 20% of podiatrists here. So the state podiatry organization was going to come out with a statement or position saying they support the removal of ABFAS requirements just for licensure. Theeeeen they have a board meeting and the state org board decides to support the requirement for licensure…joining the state Ortho organization and the state medical association saying it’s a patient safety issue. The state podiatry organization is supporting scope restriction for 80% of its members. A majority of those people should withdraw their membership and not renew next year when dues come due…but it’s podiatry. So they won’t. And we continue to be the only profession that puts restriction on our own scope to make MDs and DOs and a small % of RRA cert DPMs happy. They have no data to suggest patient safety has actually improved since requiring ABFAS for licensure/ankle privileges. Name me a single medical specialty who is actively preventing their physicians (go ahead and throw PAs and NPs in there) from practicing the thing they were trained to do?

And if @diabeticfootdr is reading this, and you need a podiatrist in the state to join the lawsuit, let me know. I’m sick and tired of our dumbarse profession. Literally zero podiatrists (and really no ortho) on the entire east side of the state (other than myself) will do any ankle surgery that isn’t a fracture. No charcot recon. No post traumatic salvage. They are actively limiting access to care for hundreds of thousands of people.

Sounds like your state needs a handsome well trained ABFAS RRA certified podiatrist....

 

[air bud]

I'm a third year student and all of this is just exhausting lol. And it's so hard to truly gauge the profession / future outlook unless you're truly in it now. I don't regret choosing pod, but I can't sit here with a straight face and say that I would chose this path if I knew it was such a battle when it comes to certification process. No one talks to you about this when you talk to current pods and you don't think to research anything before school regarding the certification process cause in your mind, you're trying to figure out if you even enjoy the field and then you get slammed with stuff like this. It feels like a never ending battle. My friends in MD/DO world aren't worried about stuff like this at all and they're gonna make it when they're done while we're out here with debt to the neck and constant anxiety of potentially not being able to practice full scope.

Don't worry there is still time.

 

[newfeet]

ABFAS has their fingers in the state boards and societies, just like hospital credentialing. They’ve used their positions and the silly rules and confusion in our profession well over the years to create this hierarchy to serve themselves.

You say you’re “sick and tired” of our profession. Unfortunately, prospective students see and hear us say this and they turn away. MD/DO schools are bursting at the seams with new applicants. Podiatry schools are entering an admissions crisis with low application rates. Really sad for what should be a fantastic career choice.

I wish I saw these conversations back in the day. I would have not enter the profession. But for some of my classmates it is a fantastic career choice.

 

[Feli]

I would be more concerned about being able to find a job that isn't terrible than certification and "practicing full scope"...

This is the truth. ^^

I was applying to a hospital just now during lunch that reads on the surgical privileging section:
"Must be currently board qualified or board certified by the American Board of Foot & Ankle Surgery in foot surgery, or by the American Board of Podiatric Medicine, or by the American Board of Multiple Specialties in Podiatry...."

By and large, the hospitals have no idea what's going on. This is a major hospital system with facilities in many cities (they employ some DPMs, have others like me who bring in PP cases). I have no idea what DPM wrote that verbiage above, how old it is, or if all of that system's facilities have it. The point is, the facilities don't usually know what is what. You will be allowed to do "full scope" at most facilities unless there is strict oversight or you clearly suck at surgery, and if you can't do it all at one spot, I'm sure you could across town at a different hospital or ASC.

The ABFAS stuff is mainly just for us to recognize one another... who did good training and passed the tests versus who did not. It's also unfortunate that it somewhat closes ppl from the best CME (ACFAS) if they don't pass ABFAS. And yeah, some hospitals will know what's going on and require it (likely because the DPMs running things write it that way).

...for the average DPM, the board cert and the privileges will happen regardless. With the easier board and fake boards, you will be limited in some areas and some jobs will rule you out, but you can still survive and make money. Get the best board cert you can. Regardless, you won't be unemployed for very long unless you choose to be. Some people consider doing "biopsy" of all toenails that come in the door and cutting calluses and doing wound grafts all day to be a fine living... and it can be lucrative enough.

The finding a job that isn't terrible is key. If you want a decent clinic, variety of pathology to use the skills you trained on, good income, some choices of locations, etc... that's harder to find (or create) those jobs. It will be competitive. That is where ABFAS, fellowship trend, working hard on creating jobs, being a likable and networked person, etc comes in.

Any DPM can write a check to a fake board and clip nails a nursing homes or work in an office and injects and nails with no surgery and make $150k or much more. Most can also work at a VA job if they are willing to wait a year or more to start. Again, all in the eye of the beholder: job... versus good job.

 

[111111194]

ABFAS has their fingers in the state boards and societies, just like hospital credentialing. They’ve used their positions and the silly rules and confusion in our profession well over the years to create this hierarchy to serve themselves.

You say you’re “sick and tired” of our profession. Unfortunately, prospective students see and hear us say this and they turn away. MD/DO schools are bursting at the seams with new applicants. Podiatry schools are entering an admissions crisis with low application rates. Really sad for what should be a fantastic career choice.

A lot of people will sell pre meds on podiatry without giving them an honest picture of what they’re getting into. Maybe prospective students should turn away until this profession cleans up its act.

 

[NatCh]

I wish I saw these conversations back in the day. I would have not enter the profession. But for some of my classmates it is a fantastic career choice.

I would've become a dentist. I mean a DMD, not that lowly DDS bull****.


JK

 

[dtrack22]

-I wonder how many people are lost to the process because they couldn't bring their records with them. Is that a reasonable question? ie. they've moved so many times they can't get x-rays or things like that. Presumably if your job is in question you should just be printing every x-ray everytime you see a patient.

And yes, of course, the ideal board cert situ is to take a job with high surgery, stay there, get cert after a few years while you're still there and can easily collect case documentation and XRs yourself... but that's just not the way it goes statistically (most DPMs and MDs etc don't stay at first job too long, will probably have a non-compete, and probably won't have EMR/facility access anymore).

This is a big problem with ABFAS cert in the podiatry world. I’m still board qualified and shouldn’t have issues passing case review in the coming years, but I was directly affected by working for podiatrists my first 2-3 years out of residency, getting screwed, changing jobs and basically not being able to sit for boards because of either lack of case “diversity” or no desire to get records from offices who stole from me or screwed me. Then I did locums work and then finally got a good job. If I had my current job right out of residency (or something similar), you know, like every surgical specialty in the MD/DO world gets, then I would already be certified. Instead, I have to build up enough cases in year 4-6 post residency that the asshats at ABFAS don’t pull cases from my old jobs.

This does not happen to orthopedic surgeons. In fact, I think staying at a single place of employment for your first 18 months is essentially a requirement for board cert. They also only log cases for like a 6 month window during that first year, and then sit for an oral case review in their second year out from residency assuming they passed their written/part I exam. Somewhere between 95-100% of orthopedic surgeons are board certified 2 years out of residency and they don’t have the same onerous logging requirements. I would kill for podiatry organizations who claim to care about “parity” to actually enforce it. There is no parity in admission standards, there is no parity in residency program certification/approval requirements (ie no orthopedic or general surgery residencies not providing robust training), there is no parity in the board certification process, etc. Hey ABFAS, just make a “foot and ankle” certification, model it exactly like the ortho process. I wouldn’t complain at all.

Facebook Certified is more important to people

Yes. 100% of your patients will care more about how you market yourself, what you put on your website/Facebook group than what board certification you have. They don’t know and they don’t give a ****. “Public awareness” and “patient safety” are buzzwords that these orgs use to further their agenda.

You can claim to be whatever you want online and people will choose to believe you or not.

Sounds like your state needs a handsome well trained ABFAS RRA certified podiatrist....

We sure do…good luck finding a job opening lol

 

[NatCh]

Yes. 100% of your patients will care more about how you market yourself, what you put on your website/Facebook group than what board certification you have. They don’t know and they don’t give a ****. “Public awareness” and “patient safety” are buzzwords that these orgs use to further their agenda.

You can claim to be whatever you want online and people will choose to believe you or not.

Furthermore, they'll either join a Facebook support group for hallux rigidus (or whatever) and go completely by what they read there, or they'll query in the local community page, "Which doctor did you see for [fill in the blank]?" then go with whichever name comes up the most. No one asks about board certification, fellowship, residency, or any of the stuff that we might think is important.

 

[dtrack22]

Furthermore, they'll either join a Facebook support group for hallux rigidus (or whatever) and go completely by what they read there, or they'll query in the local community page, "Which doctor did you see for [fill in the blank]?" then go with whichever name comes up the most. No one asks about board certification, fellowship, residency, or any of the stuff that we might think is important.

Oh yeah, I learned yesterday in clinic (from a patient) that the Facebook dropfoot community loves a certain type of brace.

 

[NatCh]

Oh yeah, I learned yesterday in clinic (from a patient) that the Facebook dropfoot community loves a certain type of brace.

Yeah...

 

[newfeet]

I would've become a dentist. I mean a DMD, not that lowly DDS bull****.


JK

I would still pick podiatry over dentistry… if they were the last two profession on the earth. 🤷🏽‍♂️