Forum Members ABFAS/ABPM

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
N

newpodgrad

Full Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2022
Messages
41
Reaction score
16
Hey guys

While looking for jobs , I inquired with a few local hospitals about how to go about getting privileges.

Several of them sent me info and I wanted to highlight a board concern.

Not sure how to really take it, but here’s a excerpt from one of the docs re: board status.

“Board Certification Requirement means certification from one of the following boards: the American Board of Medical Specialties, the American Osteopathic Association, the American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery, or those Boards which may be approved by the Executive Committee to satisfy this Requirement”

As a disclaimer, I’m not a HUGE surgery pod. I enjoyed it , and did it in residency because, well, that’s what we had to do. And I’m fine with my forefoot procedures. I believe I’ve done well with them at my current level. I don’t care to do TARS, scopes mid foot fusions etc. I have no problem referring them out. I took the ABFAS qualifying tests etc, because again, it’s encouraged in residency and passed them.

Looking at this doc, it almost seems like this board required if you wanted to be on staff. The little statement at the end regarding “or those boards” seems like it might open the door for ABPM with some petitioning or something.

What do you guys make of this? I have heard from others that ABPM will get involved with issues regarding privileges etc. Is there more to this picture than meets the eye?

Thanks in advance for everyone’s take
Members don't see this ad.
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
Feli said:
Same stuff you studied all through pod school and residency: PI manual, maybe your surgery course info, McGlam, Coughlin and Mann, other textbooks and current journal articles and conferences.
Click to expand...
I would ignore this. Will not help you pass unless you can memorize and retain encyclopedic amounts of material. Board Wizards was probably the best option, but it still missed alot of the material on RRA didactic. I think it needs to be updated more frequently. It was pretty solid on CBPS though.

The problem with RRA didactic is they come up with about 10 questions that many residencies do not train you on-- supramalleolar osteotomies, TARs, etc. They purposely do this so that the majority will fail and have to retake in the spring.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Boba Foot said:
I would ignore this. Will not help you pass unless you can memorize and retain encyclopedic amounts of material. Board Wizards was probably the best option, but it still missed alot of the material on RRA didactic. I think it needs to be updated more frequently. It was pretty solid on CBPS though.

The problem with RRA didactic is they come up with about 10 questions that many residencies do not train you on-- supramalleolar osteotomies, TARs, etc. They purposely do this so that the majority will fail and have to retake in the spring.
Click to expand...
I think PI manual is super high-yield for ABFAS.
It has great summaries of bugs and drugs, pre/post op complications and concerns, XR angles, AO principles, fracture classifications, general med, pharma, explains nearly all common surgery, skin and bone tumors, etc etc. It really doesn't get more high yield than that. It is cheap and perfect to review and refresh materials taught in past courses, residency, core F&A texts, etc. It can be read over in a couple of days, referred back to. It does need update with more TAR and newer implants and minor updates since last update (use texts and journals for that), but it's very good as-is.

The textbooks are more detail and more time reading, but they have the depth info and newer stuff also. Ideally they are read over years and years, obviously.

Journal articles, esp reviews and ACFAS CPG, are good for current practice standards (exactly what boards test) for various path... flat foot, HAV, DM foot, Achilles, heel pain, etc.

BoardWizards is good for sure (esp for CBPS format), but it's to quiz yourself on the material... not to teach/review the material. It can't be all you have for a fairly tough exam like ABFAS - unless you did amazing in school, did a good academic residency, and retained it all.

I would say it helps to have all: core knowledge from school + residency, self learn books/journals/manuals, and quiz leading up to exams. Jmo
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Members don't see this ad :)
Adding another data point

Passed all 4, used board wizards and Anki for studying. Did all cases multiple times and made it through the MC >2 times. Used the first pass as more of a content review, reading the associated articles/references for missed questions. Personally felt well prepared test day between my residency training and the content in board wizards.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Vesalanium21 said:
Adding another data point

Passed all 4, used board wizards and Anki for studying. Did all cases multiple times and made it through the MC >2 times. Used the first pass as more of a content review, reading the associated articles/references for missed questions. Personally felt well prepared test day between my residency training and the content in board wizards.
Click to expand...
podourology said:
I passed all but the RRA CBPS. Better than I expected with my lack of time. I just did BW. Should have finished all the cases, but I got lazy. So my fault.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is the key.
BWizards is fine for good programs/students currently in residency (esp for those who did well on pgy1 and pgy2 ABFAS ITEs).
Most programs and residents have at least a few holes, so studying/reading as well as quizzing still helps.

Important note is that the review/refresh (manual, texts, journals, etc) gets much more important for anyone who re-takes (failed a part or the many ppl who had passed but had to pass the "new" CBPS later on years after training). Even a year or two out, the info becomes a lot more distant and typically needs to be refreshed. What works for a pgy3 (peak didactic knowledge of whole career span) is not what tends to work years later; BWizards alone is fairly likely to be inadequate there. 🙂
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
Vesalanium21 said:
Adding another data point

Passed all 4, used board wizards and Anki for studying. Did all cases multiple times and made it through the MC >2 times. Used the first pass as more of a content review, reading the associated articles/references for missed questions. Personally felt well prepared test day between my residency training and the content in board wizards.
Click to expand...

Congrats! Would you mind sharing your Anki decks? Thanks.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Congrats on getting the hurtles over with.

A real question for those who just took it. Aside from CBPS (which you absolutely do need to study hard for) do you really think any of the material you studied was actually on the written test?

I felt the exam (i took 8-9 years ago..) was more broad knowledge and application than memorize and dump

My experience was if you kept up on reading journals through residency/had good academics in residency and stayed on top of articles over the years your chances of passing were quite high.

When I took it I was studying hard for it and when I finished the exam I felt nothing I studied was actually on there.

Its been awhile but I think I had 1-2 max fracture classification questions.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
IMG_7494.jpeg
IMG_7495.jpeg

Just posting to expose the lie saying that ABFAS is required to do surgery.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
GreenHousePub said:
Privileges and their requirements are different at each hospital.
Click to expand...

If anyone experiences an instance where ABPM is not accepted for all privileges, you can contact the board HQ and we have a committee and a privileging attorney that helps remedy that. We’ve been successful in nearly every case. I only recall 2 that we were unable to help, but there were other circumstances that hindered the podiatrist’s application.

We can’t fix a problem if there is not a complaint. So, please ask for help if you need it.

Also general advice:

1. Read and understand your medical staff bylaws and delineation of privileges (DOP) when you’re first appointed. There is a grace period for board certification (usually 5-7 years), but it’s easy to forget about that when you’re busy in practice. If the DOPs specify ABFAS only, you have 5-7 years to petition the medical staff office/privileging committee to change that. Better yet, volunteer to be on the Bylaws of Privileging Committee. No one wants to be on those committees. Then you can work to change it yourself.

2. Don’t agree to anything to get an extension without speaking to an attorney or ABPM first. It’s a nice thought to be accommodating and nice, but sometimes these agreements will hang you later.

3. Don’t get in big arguments about privileging criteria if you can’t make changes. Let a lawyer do that.

4. If the hospital recognizes ABPM and ABFAS and you already are ABPM certified, then you already meet the criteria and don’t tell the hospital you’re attempting ABFAS because they will just keep asking you about it and then if you don’t pass, they might take action.

5. If you have a choice in malpractice carriers … always PICA! PICA has a robust Administrative Defense Coverage and the others don’t. They may say they do, but if you read the policy, it is only coverage if you lose your license as a result of malpractice. PICA covers up to $100,000 and includes issues related to privileging. The ABPM works with PICA for their insured to challenge these privileging actions. It’s a case of you don’t need it until you do!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
IMG_8250.jpeg
This is getting boring so I’ll stop spamming the forum now. The point has now been made. In case you haven’t been following along. It has been said on here, and in our classrooms that if you want to do surgery ABFAS is the only way.

Then later on after that gets debunked they say something like, maybe not 100% of the time, but 95% you will need ABFAS unless you live in rural middle of nowhere America. And that anybody who is able to get surgical privileges with ABPM is 1 in a million.

I am approved at every single hospital I applied to in a 2million+ population city. I am not special. Don’t be fooled. Yes there will be some places that require ABFAS. But that doesn’t automatically make them a better surgeon or doctor.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
Members don't see this ad :)
Robin-jay said:
Is there a place I could study ABFAS material that isn't board wizards?
Click to expand...
ABFAS has a lot of retired/practice questions on their website. There is CBPS practice from ABFAS also... do the cases, print the lists, familiarize yourself.

That info from ABFAS, knowledge of current standards of care and core text info (esp McGlamry), Board Wizards is all that you need to pass.

There is really no excuse for pods doing surgery not being able to pass ABFAS. It is not very hard if you study, read, went to a good residency, learn the exam process (CBPS). It is mainly self study that runs continued 3rd year pod school through residency, attending. A month or two of serious study do fine unless the person lagged far behind for years prior. It is a fair exam, and a lot of residency programs have basically 100% pass rate on BQ year after year.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
We often say here that patients don't really care about your board certification status, but a few days ago I had an episode where a patient of mine followed up with me and she noticed that I had my new ABFAS diploma hanging in my exam room, and she congratulated me. Which was honestly heartwarming.

And then I trimmed her toenails.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I've had a hospital allow both but only allowed rearfoot privileges and even minor stuff like skin substitute application to ABFAS only.
I've had a hospital just ask for surgical logs and made me count how many rearfoot specific procedures and of what kind I did during residency.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I have surgical block time weekly, I’m the DPM in a robust ortho group, my hospital wants either. No one in my hospital board cares the difference between ABFAS/ ABPM, no one cares but us. It’s a blatant money grab.

For parity and honesty’s sake, we really should have one exam. These full grown adults in ABFAS should stop acting like children and work on unity, professional development, not money.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
IronTalus said:
I have surgical block time weekly, I’m the DPM in a robust ortho group, my hospital wants either. No one in my hospital board cares the difference between ABFAS/ ABPM, no one cares but us. It’s a blatant money grab.

For parity and honesty’s sake, we really should have one exam. These full grown adults in ABFAS should stop acting like children and work on unity, professional development, not money.
Click to expand...
This is good for your current situation (assuming all staff DPMs are doing good work), but it's not the norm everywhere.
Passing and having ABFAS will never hurt any DPM ... but having only ABPM might limit them at some places. That can't be debated.

The one board idea is cool, but we have varied quality of students/grads and highly varied residencies. The only way to have one board is to lower the bar. All residencies are 3 years, but the case volume and diversity among them is HUGELY variable. The ABFAS exam results among programs are highly variable. With as expensive as our education is and as competitive as job market is, it's wise not to limit one's options. Careers are long. 👍

I can't see podiatry adjusting anytime soon from its current framework: a harder and more respected board, and a much easier alternate board.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Whichever board passes more podiatrists will be the board that collects the most dues.

The board that is the best funded will ultimately prevail.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I disagree with the idea that having ABFAS never hurt any DPM. It is true that everywhere will accept ABFAS, and not everywhere accepts ABPM. But having ABFAS indirectly hurts people in multiple ways.

1 Having too many options can hurt. These are not accurate numbers but it gets the idea across. Imagine 100 jobs, 90 are crap and 10 are good. 7/10 good ones takes both ABPM ABFAS, 3/10 are ABFAS only. 10/90 crap jobs take both ABPM ABFAS, 80/90 are ABFAS only. If you only apply to ABPM jobs, you filter out a lot of the crap.

2 While retaking and failing ABFAS not only are you losing money, you are losing time. Time being board certified, but more importantly time hunting for jobs. Time that you spend studying instead of networking. Being early in the job hunt while in residency is crucial.

3 Patient safety. What happens if you are 6 years out closing in on the end of your certification deadline and you are missing some diversity. Some patients on your list might fill your diversity but their deformity is not severe enough to warrant surgery. Will this desperate surgeon do the conservative care and risk his career? Or will he put his patients through a possibly unnecessary surgery to save his career?

4 I view ABFAS the same as fellowship. Completely optional, and almost completely useless. It is a credential that does not make you a better doctor or surgeon, but gives the illusion that they are more qualified. That is harmful to many applicants. Most people will go on thinking that ABFAS is all you need to get a good job and will be in for a surprise when the real world hits.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
PODIATRYCRAZE said:
I disagree with the idea that having ABFAS never hurt any DPM. It is true that everywhere will accept ABFAS, and not everywhere accepts ABPM. But having ABFAS indirectly hurts people in multiple ways.

1 Having too many options can hurt. These are not accurate numbers but it gets the idea across. Imagine 100 jobs, 90 are crap and 10 are good. 7/10 good ones takes both ABPM ABFAS, 3/10 are ABFAS only. 10/90 crap jobs take both ABPM ABFAS, 80/90 are ABFAS only. If you only apply to ABPM jobs, you filter out a lot of the crap.

2 While retaking and failing ABFAS not only are you losing money, you are losing time. Time being board certified, but more importantly time hunting for jobs. Time that you spend studying instead of networking. Being early in the job hunt while in residency is crucial.

3 Patient safety. What happens if you are 6 years out closing in on the end of your certification deadline and you are missing some diversity. Some patients on your list might fill your diversity but their deformity is not severe enough to warrant surgery. Will this desperate surgeon do the conservative care and risk his career? Or will he put his patients through a possibly unnecessary surgery to save his career?

4 I view ABFAS the same as fellowship. Completely optional, and almost completely useless. It is a credential that does not make you a better doctor or surgeon, but gives the illusion that they are more qualified. That is harmful to many applicants. Most people will go on thinking that ABFAS is all you need to get a good job and will be in for a surprise when the real world hits.
Click to expand...

#3 above. This is why we do not need 600+ DPMs every year. You do not need 200 DPMs in the Bay Area fighting for surgeries. Dumbest profession ever
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
MortonExtension said:
Does abfas even consider #3 at all? It is pretty dangerous to patients
Click to expand...
No. If you do not have enough cases/diversity you probably shouldn't be doing those procedures in the first place.

If you're putting your board certification status above proper patient treatment then you shouldn't be board certified.

Now the reason you aren't getting those cases is what needs to be addressed (saturation).

I believe for MD surgical boards they usually give the candidate like 6 months of board review phase where they can pick their cases from those 6 months.

Could you imagine if we did that in podiatry? The majority of people would probably have like 12 cases to pick from.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Dermato Fight Club said:
No. If you do not have enough cases/diversity you probably shouldn't be doing those procedures in the first place.

If you're putting your board certification status above proper patient treatment then you shouldn't be board certified.

Now the reason you aren't getting those cases is what needs to be addressed (saturation).

I believe for MD surgical boards they usually give the candidate like 6 months of board review phase where they can pick their cases from those 6 months.

Could you imagine if we did that in podiatry? The majority of people would probably have like 12 cases to pick from.
Click to expand...
Seems like abfas needs to change the way they do things
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
PODIATRYCRAZE said:
I disagree with the idea that having ABFAS never hurt any DPM. It is true that everywhere will accept ABFAS, and not everywhere accepts ABPM. But having ABFAS indirectly hurts people in multiple ways.

1 Having too many options can hurt. These are not accurate numbers but it gets the idea across. Imagine 100 jobs, 90 are crap and 10 are good. 7/10 good ones takes both ABPM ABFAS, 3/10 are ABFAS only. 10/90 crap jobs take both ABPM ABFAS, 80/90 are ABFAS only. If you only apply to ABPM jobs, you filter out a lot of the crap.

2 While retaking and failing ABFAS not only are you losing money, you are losing time. Time being board certified, but more importantly time hunting for jobs. Time that you spend studying instead of networking. Being early in the job hunt while in residency is crucial.

3 Patient safety. What happens if you are 6 years out closing in on the end of your certification deadline and you are missing some diversity. Some patients on your list might fill your diversity but their deformity is not severe enough to warrant surgery. Will this desperate surgeon do the conservative care and risk his career? Or will he put his patients through a possibly unnecessary surgery to save his career?

4 I view ABFAS the same as fellowship. Completely optional, and almost completely useless. It is a credential that does not make you a better doctor or surgeon, but gives the illusion that they are more qualified. That is harmful to many applicants. Most people will go on thinking that ABFAS is all you need to get a good job and will be in for a surprise when the real world hits.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I can disagree strongly enough with the idea that having ABFAS cert is bad for the job hunter.

Now is the ABFAS process damaging to the profession and younger docs in particular while likely providing minimal increase in patient safety? There are many opinions on that...
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

bloxxeeey
ABPM if Already ABFAS Qualified
Replies
38
Views
3K
PeaJay
P
PTPuser
ABFAS Anki
Replies
3
Views
1K
Hybrocure
Hybrocure
PMG03470
ABFAS Cert pass rates
Replies
16
Views
2K
HaimFeldman
HaimFeldman
Podstar
ABPM 2024
Replies
42
Views
6K
icebreaker32
icebreaker32
D
ABFAS RRA
Replies
31
Views
3K
air bud
air bud
Top