ABIM research pathway length in cards

[dphoenix]

Ok, I haven't gotten a definitive answer on this - is the research pathway for cards a total of 6 years or more? Please dont point me to the ABIM website, only answers based upon people you know who have completed this route.

Thanks in advance.

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[copacetic]

Ok, I haven't gotten a definitive answer on this - is the research pathway for cards a total of 6 years or more? Please dont point me to the ABIM website, only answers based upon people you know who have completed this route.

Thanks in advance.

from what i understand the pathway is 5 years not 6. the idead is that they want to streamline your learning so that you get to researching asq uickly as possible. if i am not mistaken the other caveat is that you can do a cardiology sub specialty like echo, EP, heart failure etc. someone correct me if i'm wrong?

 

[dphoenix]

No it is definitely not 5, it's 6 or more. I'm trying to figure out whether it is more than 6 at most institutions.

Any short-trackers out there know the answer to this?

 

[ProgCoordinator]

A candidate will do two years in IM. The third year is the transition into Cardiology which kicks off four years in that program. One of which is dedicated to research.

 

[dphoenix]

A candidate will do two years in IM. The third year is the transition into Cardiology which kicks off four years in that program. One of which is dedicated to research.

So you're saying it's 6 years? Then why does the ABIM website say that Cardiology may be 7 years long? I have heard from others that actually it should be 6 years, but this seems to be in conflict to what the ABIM site says.

 

[ProgCoordinator]

It is tricky, isn't it? We're all still getting used to the finer points and to be honest I'm not certain whether the ABIM counts the candidates' PGY 2 as part of the program, but I can tell you that the transition to fellowship training is in the PGY 3. At tiimes we have short-trackers stay on for a fifth year with us as an Instructor doing further research. But it's not part of GME. For certain I can tell you this: A year of internship, a year of IM residency, four years of CVD fellowship.

 

[Scottish Chap]

So you're saying it's 6 years? Then why does the ABIM website say that Cardiology may be 7 years long? I have heard from others that actually it should be 6 years, but this seems to be in conflict to what the ABIM site says.

I asked a similar question on SDN a while back and never received an impressive answer. For cards, the ABIM research pathway (aka 'fast track') is: 2 years IM/3 years of research/2 years cards so 7 years total. Some programs let you do the cards part before the research. It's actually longer than the traditional pathway. Unofficially, I've heard that some programs may petition the ABIM on your behalf for just two years of research if you have a ton of publications, but I can't confirm that. The fellowship part is shorter for some of the other IM sub-specialties.

You are eligible to take the IM boards having completed only two years of IM in this program. If you try to ditch the research, the ABIM makes you go back and complete a third clinical year.

 

[jmeyers52]

I'm currently an MS4 interviewing for the research track in cardiology at a few programs and thought I would chime in. The places I've interviewed are consistent with what scottish chap said. 2 yrs IM, 2 yrs cards, 3 yrs research. The timing of clinical cards years and research seems to vary by program (2 clinical cards then 3 research vs. 3 research then 2 clinical cards vs 1 cards then 3 research then 1 cards, etc...). Some places seem to be more flexible (Mayo seemed to be willing to do whatever order the fellow wanted subject to clinical availability) and some had a required order (Vandy requires 2 IM, then 2 cards, then 3 research). The only reasoning I heard was from Vanderbilt who likes to end on 3 years of research for momentum entering your academic, grant-seeking careeer vs. a two-year layoff from research if ending with clinical cards. I haven't heard of people waiving the final research year, but I'm not sure that programs would announce this to me as an interviewee.

 

[howelljolly]

This might be a silly question, but.....How do you find which programs have the research track in cardiology... and apply as an MS-4?

 

[jmeyers52]

Depending on where you are in the process, this is a place to start... http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~paik/rr.html

When I was applying for IM I just looked at everyone's website and when I applied via ERAS looked at the tracks that were available to apply to (categorical, prelim, research, primary care, etc...). Many programs have a separate ERAS track that you can apply to. There are some programs that I applied to that dont have separate tracks in the match, but if you know what you want to do it is pretty easy to enter a research pathway as an intern.

 

[TiggidyTooth]

Great thread!

Does anyone have any idea how competitive to land a spot in one of these research pathways? Do you need stellar board scores and AOA? Is it ok to be average? If anyone has any experience with how competitive the process is I would greatly appreciate it.

Tooth

 

[howelljolly]

I asked that to faculty at one of those programs, a couple of weeks ago. I really got the impression that you need to have a background in research. They'll give you a guaranteed fellowship, and train you in research for two years.... But their goal seemed to be that you'll stick around after fellowship as research faculty. And they meant serious research. They said that if you just want to be "involved" in research, then a regular track fellowship is right for you. It makes sense... if they arent training their own, then whats their incentive to guarantee you a fellowship.

What they said about competitiveness.... it depends... the IM program already decides how many of their spots will be fast-track before interview time... so thats not flexible...and that means that you are applying to a small specialty (think derm)..... in this case IM-research (you cant just go in and cut a deal to make this happen).... and then its the question of what your research background is, and if you have a PhD already... because other research junkies are applying for the same specific seats. Most MSTPs (MD,PhD) go into IM, and they've already got their eye on these spots.....so, its competitive.
sorry... its fuzzy up there.

 

[dragonfly99]

I agree that without some research background it would probably be difficult to go this route, as it's basically a pathway to get people into bench research. I think some programs used to allow 2 years research/2 years clinical, but it seems more of them now are wanting folks to do 3 years research.

At some of the more competitive programs a PhD might help a lot in terms of getting in, but I know of several where at least half or more of the folks in the ABIM pathway have no PhD.

Agree with howelljolly that for the programs one of their big goals is to train future faculty for their institution, so keep that in mind when you interview. At some places, you may be able to enter ABIM pathway as an intern, but I think the easiest way to get in is when applying as an MS4. It tends to be harder to get in for things like cards because you'll likely be competing with more folks (as opposed to the number vying for an ABIM spot for ID or something). On the plus side, if you like bench research and want to do academics, or just want a guaranteed cards spot, it could be a good plan. You have to keep in mind that your clinical cards time will be cut from 3 to 2 years, though, so you may not feel confident in all your clinical skills if you decide on private practice later.

 

[tachycore]

I'm enrolled in such a research program with a couple other residents. I do agree it is very heavy research oriented.

I disagree that it's soley basic science/bench work. ABIM distinguishes between two pathways: the basic scientist and the clinical investigator.

http://www.abim.org/certification/policies/research/training.aspx

Most people confuse the pathway as soley being bench work. I fall into the clinical investigator pathway and only occasionally do benchwork to verify something.

As far as the fellowship is concerned, its timing definitely varies by institution and a position may not be guaranteed at some places.

 

[dragonfly99]

Some programs definitely want folks to do bench work, and not clinical research. Some programs will not take people to do clinical research.

 

[howelljolly]

I was trolling around as usual, and discovered that theres a forum for dedicated to Research Residencies under the Physician Scientist forum... and it requires elite membership to be able to see anything.

I told you, those MSTP guys have there eyes on these spots.

 

[dadr]

The only reasoning I heard was from Vanderbilt who likes to end on 3 years of research for momentum entering your academic, grant-seeking careeer vs. a two-year layoff from research if ending with clinical cards.

Just a comment about this point--when I was interviewing, one PD argued that research first allows you to get a lot more publications in press (you can spend some of your last two clinical years doing this), whereas if you wait until your last 1-2 years to do research, you'll hardly get anything published by the time you are applying for faculty positions.

Another comment about the duration: there is a distinction between the research pathway when combined with residency, and the pathway as solely part of cardiology fellowship. The former almost always has a 3 year research component, where the latter is usually two years. The downside is that your two clinical cardiology years are more packed with COCATS requirements and you have to take additional time to get subspecialty training.

 

[dragonfly99]

<I told you, those MSTP guys have there eyes on these spots.>

Definitely true. It's a guaranteed fellowship spot at the time you match into IM residency, which is a plumb for fields like GI and cards.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Great thread!

Does anyone have any idea how competitive to land a spot in one of these research pathways? Do you need stellar board scores and AOA? Is it ok to be average? If anyone has any experience with how competitive the process is I would greatly appreciate it.

Tooth

I think if you are fairly competitive for the IM program at the institution, significant research will make you eligible for the ABIM research track. I applied to 7 research tracks (as well as some regular IM programs), and I received invitations at all of them. Some of them insist that you stay a second interview day to be tortured by 7-9 cardiology interviews, but the more organized programs do everything in one, long interview day. The Vanderbilt research track is one of the best I have seen in terms or organization, and the people running it are just superb. One of the faculty members at a research track where I interviewed said that he noticed the fast track IM residents tend to perform as well and usually better than the regular IM applicants during the medicine years, so I really think the interest in IM and aptitude for IM needs to be apparent in your application to win a research track interview.

On the interview trail, I have noticed that not all of the applicants for the research track will be MD/PhDs upon graduation; some do not have a PhD, but they all have significant (usually bench) research experience and publications.

If one's sole interest is in securing a cards spot 'up-front', I personally think this is a bad reason and I was very open about that on my interviews. For me, I know that my interest in private practice is pretty much zero and I want to do bench research, so it makes sense. I am also interested in not moving my family around too much.

For the people thinking about this track: I have been informed on authority that the ABIM is now requiring 3 years of research for this program without question. There are no more 'faster tracks' for the research years, and the ABIM no longer accepts that petition. Also, keep in mind that reducing the clinical phase of year 3 IM and year 3 cards is not as dramatic as most people make it sound - the IM inpatients wards from year 3 are compressed into IM year 2 and there is no elective time, so it's not that bad. Also, for cards, year 3 is often spent entirely or mostly doing research, and this is what the ABIM research track is all about.

A couple of final comments: note that some institutions (like BIDMC and the University of Maryland) offer the ABIM research track, but they are NOT guaranteeing the clinical fellowship up-front. I met a couple of people on the interview trail that applied to some of those programs without reading the fine print. This means that you will be interviewing for fellowship in your intern year. Not fun, and logistics make this difficult. Also, even for those programs that guarantee the fellowship in cards or whatever else (all of them I applied to), the rules of the ABIM are such that you are allowed to interview at other institutions for fellowship as an intern without penalty. Keep that in mind.

 

[Adcadet]

Here's some info on one program:
http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/ci.html

There's a slight difference in the timing between those who match into the program and the residents who are chosen after their first 1.5 years.

 

[PoetMD]

Here's a question- do you have any say in what area of cards research you'd be doing? For example, if I'm really interested in stem cell research and apply to places like Houston, etc, where they have ongoing research in this area, is it likely thats what I'd be doing? Or is what you end up working on less in your control?

Also- with this pathway requiring 3yrs of research, have any of you considered turning it into a PhD? What are the obstacles in accomplishing this?

great thread
thanks for your responses

 

[gutonc]

Here's a question- do you have any say in what area of cards research you'd be doing? For example, if I'm really interested in stem cell research and apply to places like Houston, etc, where they have ongoing research in this area, is it likely thats what I'd be doing? Or is what you end up working on less in your control?

Also- with this pathway requiring 3yrs of research, have any of you considered turning it into a PhD? What are the obstacles in accomplishing this?

I can't speak to Cards specifically but can to the research pathway in general. You are free to do your research with any PI who can support you and for which you can make a convincing argument that the research is related to your chosen specialty. The only real limitation would be finding someone who does what you are interested in at the institution you wind up in. There aren't generally any limits to whom you can do work with. So you don't necessarily have to work with somebody who is in the Cards dept.

As an example, I'm an Onc fellow in the research pathway and my research is going to be with a PhD researcher whose primary appointments are in Derm and Cell Biology but she is also a member of our Cancer Institute and Stem Cell Institute.

You may get some pressure to joint a particular lab but it's not like they line up all the fellows on July 1 and tell you what lab you'll be in.